There Is No God
Quote: indignant99You answered your own question. The universe was NOT created. (But it's certainly here now.) Thus, no start point. Thus, eternal.
The universe was created.
If it was eternal with no beginning, then time is infinite.
If time was infinite, then at any given moment in time, an infinite number of events have already occurred.
Time came into existence simultaneously with quantity.
Secondly.
If the universe was eternal, then matter and all other forms of energy in the universe would have been converted to heat energy by now.
All the billions of suns would have expended their hydrogen and burned out.
Quote: Tanko
All the billions of suns would have expended their hydrogen and burned out.
Only to collapse in on itself and start
all over again. What we know about how
the universe works fills half the
first page of a 26 volume encyclopedia.
Quote: Tanko
The universe was created.
Says you. And I disagree.
Quote: TankoIf the universe was eternal, then matter and all other forms of energy in the universe would have been converted to heat energy by now.
I did not say the universe always appeared as it does today. There was a huge transition event (not creation event) called the Big Bang. We know nothing backwards from the Big Bang, but it sprang from the singularity, and was not a creation event from nothing.
What existed before then?
If matter cannot be created or destroyed, how did it come to be?
If "god" or an "unmoved mover" did it: how were they created?
Quote: MrVOK, I accept the Big Bang explanation, which takes us back what, 8-16 billion years?
What existed before then?
If matter cannot be created or destroyed, how did it come to be?
If "god" or an "unmoved mover" did it: how were they created?
Science disproves itself.
I say creation is much more likely than "everything came from the big bang which was like 10 billion years ago, but this stuff has always been here" explanation. Seems like many people have this idea "if you can't prove God, then God doesn't exist". If that's true, then there's lots of stuff that's not true (gravity, evolution, the beginning, why people have feelings, that we're all in the matrix, etc.).
Don't try to say "well infinity is real it's just so above your head you can't even begin to imagine what it is....oh but God? That's not possible! How can something be eternal in every sense and I can't imagine that."
Believing in God takes faith. Believing in some of this other stuff takes even more faith.
Edit: It's funny. People say "the universe has no beginning and therefore is eternal" but are the same people arguing that God can't be real because of this whole eternal thing. Lol.
see than jumping to conclusions. The earth
looks flat, so it is until proven otherwise.
You see a river for the first time and conclude
it goes forever, until you find it doesn't.
The universe seems like it's been here forever,
and nobody has proven it hasn't been. Just
because you think you see a creation doesn't
mean it's written in stone there was a creator.
Quote: indignant99Says you. And I disagree.
Thanks for that informative elaboration.
I am referring to that super dense point of energy of near zero volume in space that the universe once may have been.
That super dense point had to come from somewhere.
Nothingness is a good start.
Einstein, Hawking, Kaku and others all explained the Big Bang, but they never touched on how that super dense point of energy came into existence.
Only that it blew up.
Kaku at lease believes in absolute nothing, where space and time do not exist.
Hawking says the universe does not need God to create it, since it will create itself out of nothing because of gravity.
Perhaps it could now, because mass now exists.
Before mass existed, the universe could not create itself, since gravity cannot exist without mass.
So where did mass come from?
Hawking doesn't explain that.
Back to square one.
Whatever created energy, space and thus time could only be something supernatural that preceded time.
Something with no beginning and not subject to the laws of the physical universe.
Quote: Tanko
Back to square one..
We think we see beginnings and endings instead
of an eternal process that's always been
here. Start with that premise and try and
disprove it instead of the other way around.
Quote: TankoWhatever created energy, space and thus time could only be something supernatural that preceded time.
You are right, they do not explain it.
The lack of an explaination is not proof of a supernatural one.
Quote: Dalex64You are right, they do not explain it.
The lack of an explaination is not proof of a supernatural one.
That's exactly how it should be done.
In the past when they couldn't explain
something, and that was pretty much
everything, they would attach a
supernatural cause to it and that would
be that. It slowed down real scientific
inquiry for millennia.
Quote: TankoThanks for that informative elaboration.
I am referring to that super dense point of energy of near zero volume in space that the universe once may have been.
That super dense point had to come from somewhere.
Nothingness is a good start.
Einstein, Hawking, Kaku and others all explained the Big Bang, but they never touched on how that super dense point of energy came into existence.
Only that it blew up.
Kaku at lease believes in absolute nothing, where space and time do not exist.
Hawking says the universe does not need God to create it, since it will create itself out of nothing because of gravity.
Perhaps it could now, because mass now exists.
Before mass existed, the universe could not create itself, since gravity cannot exist without mass.
So where did mass come from?
Hawking doesn't explain that.
Back to square one.
Whatever created energy, space and thus time could only be something supernatural that preceded time.
Something with no beginning and not subject to the laws of the physical universe.
If it were just about proposing intelligent creation over something else, that would be one thing. It's not just God belief vs. science. Once you purport to suggest an unknown, any number of unknowns could be suggested. Perhaps this universe is a simulation of a sophisticated game developer.
There's no argument that successfully limits the existence of the universe to god or science. You can't just bring a set of limited unknowns.
God is as worthless concept as any other unknown once you bring the idea of unknowns into it.
Much like a magic trick, once you admit it's unknown to you, you can rarely settle on just limited answers if you are unable to investigate the trick properly. Cameras, time, slight of hand, false bottoms, psychology, optical illiusion, etc,,
Things like artificial reality, simulations, etc., are legitimate scientific theories being pursued. Our entire existence being just a simulation, is such a theory which is hard to discount when you hear the arguments for them. Things like the speed of light being constant and spooky action don't make sense to be unless there is a reason.Quote: rxwineIf it were just about proposing intelligent creation over something else, that would be one thing. It's not just God belief vs. science. Once you purport to suggest an unknown, any number of unknowns could be suggested. Perhaps this universe is a simulation of a sophisticated game developer.
There's no argument that successfully limits the existence of the universe to god or science. You can't just bring a set of limited unknowns.
God is as worthless concept as any other unknown once you bring the idea of unknowns into it.
Much like a magic trick, once you admit it's unknown to you, you can rarely settle on just limited answers if you are unable to investigate the trick properly. Cameras, time, slight of hand, false bottoms, psychology, optical illiusion, etc,,
Quote: MrVIf matter cannot be created or destroyed, how did it come to be?
God damn it, MrV. (1) Cannot be created. (2) Thus, was not created. (3) Thus - since it does exist now - you can only conclude that it already existed forever.
Quote: MrVWhat existed before then?
This is a nonsense question. There was no before. There is no such thing as before, because the Big Bang was also the initiation of time itself. I'll repeat it until I'm blue in the face... There is no such thing as BEFORE the Big Bang. I know you don't like this answer. It does not satisfy your curiosity. TOUGH SHIT.
Quote: indignant99God damn it, MrV. (1) Cannot be created. (2) Thus, was not created. (3) Thus - since it does exist now - you can only conclude that it already existed forever.
13.8 billion years? Or forever? I thought there was nothingness, then the magical big bang "created" everything (well, didn't create everything, but "put everything into existence").
Help me understand. The way I see it, either everything has always been (thus no big bang, since the big bang is the beginning of everything)....or everything came from nothing (thus matter can be created). Or is there a third, "in between" theory. Seems like an awful lot of science is theories based on theories based on theories.
That's what Joseph Smith said. You must be Mormon.Quote: indignant99God damn it, MrV. (1) Cannot be created. (2) Thus, was not created. (3) Thus - since it does exist now - you can only conclude that it already existed forever.
I'm on phone, can't update list. Pity.
And, keep your theory of everything to yourself until it's complete. The nature of the beast.
Like trying not to express yourself to take yourself far enough out of the equation to catch a glimpse of it while still able to make it back.
Addon: This place is as "good" as any for doing that.
Quote: rudeboyoiIt always struck me as odd that people thought the world is flat. The night sky looks dome shaped and appears to rotate. Like I can understand people thinking that the earth didn't rotate and thinking that the earth was the center and everything rotated around the earth but not that the earth is flat.
When they saw a ship coming from shore,
they saw the masts and sails first, and the
body of the ship last. That told a lot of them
the world was round.
Quote: EvenBobWhen they saw a ship coming from shore,
they saw the masts and sails first, and the
body of the ship last. That told a lot of them
the world was round.
Yah then compare that to someone walking up a hill. If you're on the other side you don't see their whole body until they reach the top. If that hill is rounded maybe the earth is rounded too.
It is harder to demonstrate on land, with hills and valleys and trees obstructing your view.
30 miles out or so. Hard to see on land, but
easy on a clear day on the ocean. There's
a commercial that says we can see the light
of a candle on a dark night from 10 miles away,
I think.
Quote: KerkebetThe most ironic thing about Mr. Hawking is, well, his way of thinking be his greatest handicap.
I read "A Brief History of Time" by Hawking. The funniest thing to me was in the forward he said he was told by other astro-physicists that if he put even one equation in the book it would cut sales in half.
Quote: RSPerhaps it's because the earth is so large that it actually seems flat. If it was round (and much smaller) you would expect them to go out of site quickly....and you'd be able to see the curve on the earth's surface.
The west side of the Utah Salt Flats are perfectly flat. It's where the Bonneville Salt Flats are located. There are spots in Wendover where you can sit at night and watch the headlights of the cars come in sight. And if you go up a little in altitude you can see the headlights from farther away.
Quote: mickeycrimmThe west side of the Utah Salt Flats are perfectly flat. It's where the Bonneville Salt Flats are located. There are spots in Wendover where you can sit at night and watch the headlights of the cars come in sight on I-80. And if you go up a little in altitude you can see the headlights from farther away.
Quote: KerkebetThe most ironic thing about Mr. Hawking is, well, his way of thinking be his greatest handicap.
Seriously, what is the record of supernatural explanations against scientific ones? Which ones have held up, in medicine, or the natural world, cosmology?
It's a near constant historical beatdown of supernatural explanations replaced by scientific ones.
Quote: rxwine
It's a near constant historical beatdown of supernatural explanations replaced by scientific ones.
I've said this before. Up until the 20th
century, the tallest buildings in any city
in the world were the churches and
cathedrals. Even a small town in the US
had a high steeple that was seen first
from far away. This was what ruled,
religion and superstition.
Into the 20th century, the tallest became
the office buildings, representing science
and commerce. They were the new rulers.
The churches have been losing power
ever since, much to their chagrin. Science
triumphs religious superstition every time.
Race was an issue all her life but she was not a racist. But she was not allowed to openly preach racial tolerance. She was only allowed to teach it behind closed doors to kids in her Sunday School class. She explained to me one time why she obeyed the Church. It wasn't that the Pleasant Grove congregation was against the teachings. The directives came from above, the United Methodist Church.
What power did they hold over her? Pleasant Grove, both the church and graveyard, were built and maintained by the donations of the congregationalists. But they didn't own any of it. The parent organization did. If my grandmother got herself into a political fight with the parent organization she could be banned out of not only the church, but the graveyard where five generations of her ancestors lay. That's the power they held over her.
As a now practicing genealogist a couple of the things the women of that church did was make sure the tombstones were all concrete and couldn't rot away like wood, and they made sure the maiden names of their female ancestors were on the tombstones.
Quote: djatcI'm a bit worried about my afterlife with the 72 virgins....
Somebody said the other day they wanted
to know how many of those virgins are
men. They never say, you know.
Quote: EvenBobSomebody said the other day they wanted
to know how many of those virgins are
men. They never say, you know.
In djatc's case...there'll be 73 of them. :P
Quote: RSIn djatc's case...there'll be 73 of them. :P
LOL 74 I'm taking you with me! 74 World of Warcraft nerds :)
Quote: djatcnow I'm a bit worried about my afterlife with the 72 virgins....
It's interesting that even in heaven women
are just property in Islam. Fairly disgusting.
Quote: EvenBobIt's interesting that even in heaven women
are just property in Islam. Fairly disgusting.
My grandmother, Luna Moulds Reynolds., was not only the greatist Christian I've ever met. She is the greatest woman I've ever met.
Quote: mickeycrimmMy grandmother, Luna Moulds Reynolds., was not only the greatist Christian I've ever met. She is the greatest woman I've ever met.
Moonstruck prodigy will go with their kin every time. I'm going with my grandmother. I want to be buried in the same graveyard, all Christians. To hell with the math of it from my side. I'm going to the grave with an abiding belief in Jesus. I dont really know in the end. But that is the way I'm going to my grave, with an abiding belief in Jesus. If its good enough for my ancestors its good enough for me.
Quote: ArtemisIs there God?
According to "Zal", yes, there is God. He told me that God cured him of terminal colon cancer. I asked him which church did he attend regularly. He said he didn't go to church any more.
Since God cured his cancer, I asked him why did he quit going to church. He said he got tired of listening to the same repeated Gospel over and over again in church.
Go figure!
There are lots of false prophets. And the most suspect place you will find them is in a Church preaching Gospel to you. But they want to preach other things than the Gospel to you. They will use the Gospel to preach phony things to you. They will attempt to teach you political beliefs that have nothing to do with the Gospel. If you call them on it, some of them will try to tell the congregation that you are the Devil because you don't believe the way that they do. I'm a Christian, but I'm a beer drinking and hell raising Christian. If you start talking false doctrine to me I'm gonna kick your ass and go have a beer. Or maybe I might let your ass off and go have a beer.
But there is one thing I know about Christianity. Its in the Bible. There is only two things you have to do to be a Christian: ADMIT THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD AND HE DIED FOR YOUR SINS. AND REPENT OF YOUR SINS. That's it. The story is over. You got there. The Bible expains it so correctly. That's the only two things you have to do. All the psycobabble by so many preachers dont't mean jackshit. The Bible doesn't say you have to kiss some phony preachers ass to be a Christian. The Bible doesn't say you have to be the lacky ass of the world. Just do the two things mentioned above and you are a Christian. And to hell with everybody else. We're going to heaven. And we are on a one way ticket.
edit: I'm referring to the New Testament.
Quote: mickeycrimmThe funniest thing to me was in the forward he said he was told by other astro-physicists that if he put even one equation in the book it would cut sales in half.
Hawking admits that his poster boy image in physics likely sprang from his illness. They did the same approach with Einstein's tongue and hair out pictures. Physics needs political and humanitarian strains of funding too. Something elegant and personable which doesn't show us for what we actually are. The movie amounted to a good laxative. Even for the people who read his popular books, and saw a bit more of it. Stuff of the Even Bob's.
The most ironic thing of Einstein was, well, he became his own "odd man out" with his scorn for the much longer lived era of quantum science. To the point of inventing more and more of it to rule out what he, himself, had conceived to begin with. Many asked him to join in with the burgeoning new quantum field theory work, but he steadfastly refused. He died at 75 still making notes about relativity at his bedside to prove it the rest of the way out.
Today, people are beginning to seriously revisit his basic work. To question what might underpin the quantum limits of the photons. More of the same supercilious nonsense, in my opinion. This letting the quirky guide us down centuries old paths. Yeah, it's okay to be an **** with everyone's money, etc... so long as you go about it in a "cool" way which supports wimpy governments, et al.
Quote: rxwineSeriously, what is the record of supernatural explanations against scientific ones?
It's led you down the either-or path, I see.
Do you really expect science to understand religion at its core? Or the other branches of thought not yet discovered?
We've witnessed what a 100 or so pages have accomplished here. Bob seems to think he's getting something out of it. What does that tell you?
---> ADD ON: What better way to understand science, itself, than through some other set of eyes of ears? Does it matter what the equations mean after you understand what those are?
Quote: AxelWolfSomeone has to explain NOTHINGNESS to me because I can't wrap my head around that as it seems impossible. Even if someone claims to understand NOTHINGNESS I don't believe them.
Here's my take.
If you create a 10x10x10 cube and remove every form of energy from it, you are left with nothing but a vacuum.
If anyone asked you to describe what was left in the cube, you would answer 'nothing'. But you would be mistaken because time and space exist within the cube. The clock started the moment time and space came into existence. If space exists, then time also exists. So you could answer 'time and space'.
You can also apply the laws of the physical universe to this cube. You could apply mathematical equations for example.
The concept of absolute nothing is the total absence of everything. That is the total absence of time, space and energy.
You cannot apply the laws of the physical universe to absolute nothingness.
Time had a finite beginning because time cannot be infinite. It can go to eternity, but it had to have a starting point.
Again. If time was infinite, then at any given point in time an infinite number of events must have already taken place.
Time had a beginning.
If time had a beginning, then only absolute nothingness could have preceded it.
When physicists like Hawking describe nothing, they are not referring to absolute nothing. They are referring to what they believe was a point of infinite density and zero volume. That would mean it was a point of infinite energy and infinite gravity.
If that were the case, it would take more energy than infinite energy to blow or rip it apart and cause the Big Bang.
Any tendency to break apart would be offset by an equal force keeping it from doing so.
Quote: KerkebetIt's led you down the either-or path, I see.
Do you really expect science to understand religion at its core?
As the product of the brain, yes, probably at some point.
