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DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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October 24th, 2011 at 10:05:32 AM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

If you want to speculate, then your question requires some clarification such as, what does "before" mean? Time is a measure of change. All change is measured by stuff made in the big bang. So is there even a "before"?

Wow. That's a concept that really makes ya think. Very cool.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Nareed
Nareed
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October 24th, 2011 at 10:07:11 AM permalink
Quote: HotBlonde

Theories are theories because there is no way to actually prove them.



You're confusing the coloquial use with the scientific use. A hypothetical postulate is a hypothesis, which needs to be tested and either proved or disproved. if it cannot be tested, it's not worht anything.

A theory is a set of rules describing a phenomenon, more or less. Among other things, theories make predictions which can also be tested. Einsntein's theories of relativity (there are two), for example, deal with conditions under extremes of gravity and speed. They've both made predictions which have been tested and found to be accurate.

Quote:

So... if all this religious stuff is true then why has it not been proven as true?



I've never received a satisfactory answer to that question. Only arguments and hints about evidence which never turns out to be available for examination.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
HotBlonde
HotBlonde
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October 24th, 2011 at 10:12:55 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I've never received a satisfactory answer to that question. Only arguments and hints about evidence which never turns out to be available for examination.

There are just so many holes in any doctrine. Followers will overlook these things so that they can find security in believing they have a book of answers rather than giving in to the thought that we actually can't ever really know anything and being okay with that.
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MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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October 24th, 2011 at 10:51:40 AM permalink
Quote: HotBlonde

So... if all this religious stuff is true then why has it not been proven as true?


Scientifically, you can only prove something true by disproving its opposite. Only in non-science settings (and often in the legal realm) does "prove" mean something other than absolute truth. Religion uses this "probative value" notion a lot, using various stories or events to "prove" something is true (like the divinity of Jesus). But the only way to prove, say, that Jesus was the Messiah would be to disprove the assertion that Jesus was NOT the Messiah, and that's impossible to do without resorting to circular (and thus, invalid) reasoning. Similarly, there's no way to disprove the assertion that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe and is responsible for all we see and feel.

Once a statement falls outside the scientific realm of proof and disproof, you have to take it on faith. So when religion says "this is the truth", they don't mean "true" the same way the statement "All humans are mammals; I am human; therefore I am a mammal" is true. Any and all attempts to apply logic and rational reasoning to the tenets of religion -- any religion -- have invariably failed at some point due to axiomatic circularity. There is never a complete logical proof of any religious belief -- that's why it's a religious belief and not a scientific theory.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
HotBlonde
HotBlonde
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October 24th, 2011 at 10:56:56 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

So when religion says "this is the truth", they don't mean "true" the same way the statement "All humans are mammals; I am human; therefore I am a mammal" is true.

But I think that's EXACTLY what religious devotees are trying to say.
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Nareed
Nareed
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October 24th, 2011 at 11:20:19 AM permalink
Quote: HotBlonde

There are just so many holes in any doctrine. Followers will overlook these things so that they can find security in believing they have a book of answers rather than giving in to the thought that we actually can't ever really know anything and being okay with that.



Followers of a religioon will accept the loopholes and contradictions, explainign them away as "God moves in mysterious ways," or "it makes sense to God," or something like that.

But what do you eman we can't know anything? We know plenty. It's likely we won't ever know everything, and certain that no one person can know everything. BUt do we know anything? Absolutely we do.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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October 24th, 2011 at 11:20:59 AM permalink
Quote: HotBlonde

But I think that's EXACTLY what religious devotees are trying to say.


You are correct, and those devotees are wrong to equate a religious truth with a scientific one, but that hasn't ever stopped anyone.

"Thinking is skilled work. It is not true that we are naturally endowed with the ability to think clearly and logically - without learning how, or without practicing."
-- Alfred Mander
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
rxwine
rxwine
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October 24th, 2011 at 11:27:11 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

What makes you think the entire resurrection wasn't just woven out of thin air?



May be. It's evident even today that developing a core group of fervent rock solid believers in almost any wacko thing is possible. We generally only hear about such groups when they get into the news for some reason.

It's not amazing nor amazing proof, nor amazing anything that something takes hold once in awhile and can then maintain and even evolve through the distance of history from lack of firm examination. One can rarely shake the confidence of converts of modern day cults out of their delusions, so what hope is there for these long term and much bigger groups?
Everything is in high definition today except Bigfoot and UFOs
HotBlonde
HotBlonde
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October 24th, 2011 at 11:40:41 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

But what do you eman we can't know anything? We know plenty. It's likely we won't ever know everything, and certain that no one person can know everything. BUt do we know anything? Absolutely we do.

We think we really KNOW things but do we really? If I'm in my bedroom and I want to go into the living room can I be absolutely certain that the living room really exists and is there on the other side of the door? Can I be absoulutely certain that Abraham Lincoln existed? There's a 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999+% chance that he did but can I ABSOLUTELY know that?

I just read this and it reminded me of our current discussions: "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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thecesspit
thecesspit
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October 24th, 2011 at 11:49:59 AM permalink
If you take certain items as axoimatic, yes. However, then we are down to arguing axioms, and at that point, I normally decide philosophy is too hard and try something easier, like self-direct brain surgery or convincing Canuck's fans that Roberto Luongo isn't the best goal tender in ice hockey.

But if people can agree on a set of axioms, things can be very interesting.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829

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