The Pope wants to change the Catholic Church from top to bottom...
Pope: No more business as usual
The Pope has issued an apostolic exhortation, Evangelii Gaudium (full text here). In it, he proposes sweeping changes, from top to bottom. Honestly, I could get behind this. Except for the god thing, of course, that is silly.
Some money quotes:
"Some of these customs may be beautiful, but they no longer serve as means of communicating the Gospel. We should not be afraid to re-examine them. At the same time, the Church has rules or precepts which may have been quite effective in their time, but no longer have the same usefulness for directing and shaping people’s lives."
"More than by fear of going astray, my hope is that we will be moved by the fear of remaining shut up within structures which give us a false sense of security, within rules which make us harsh judges, within habits which make us feel safe, while at our door people are starving."
"Since I am called to put into practice what I ask of others, I too must think about a conversion of the papacy."
Regarding the "wafer wars", where pro-choice advocates are denied communion:
"Everyone can share in some way in the life of the Church; everyone can be part of the community, nor should the doors of the sacraments be closed for simply any reason. The Eucharist, although it is the fullness of sacramental life, is not a prize for the perfect but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak."
that's what all the Priests say .....to little boys that isQuote: Moscafrom top to bottom. Honestly, I could get behind this.
Why didn't they find me attractive like the others? That's a big blow to my self esteem. I have never recovered.
I don't know any priest off hand that could help you with that situation..... however I do know a popular downtown comedian that may be willing to help. He likes to gamble so you would have somthing in common.Quote: KeyserSozeI was an altar boy for many years, and was never raped even once.
Why didn't they find me attractive like the others? That's a big blow to my self esteem. I have never recovered.
Quote: Mosca
Pope: No more business as usual
The Pope has issued an apostolic exhortation, Evangelii Gaudium (full text here). In it, he proposes sweeping changes, from top to bottom. Honestly, I could get behind this. Except for the god thing, of course, that is silly.
Some money quotes:
"Some of these customs may be beautiful, but they no longer serve as means of communicating the Gospel. We should not be afraid to re-examine them. At the same time, the Church has rules or precepts which may have been quite effective in their time, but no longer have the same usefulness for directing and shaping people’s lives."
"More than by fear of going astray, my hope is that we will be moved by the fear of remaining shut up within structures which give us a false sense of security, within rules which make us harsh judges, within habits which make us feel safe, while at our door people are starving."
"Since I am called to put into practice what I ask of others, I too must think about a conversion of the papacy."
Regarding the "wafer wars", where pro-choice advocates are denied communion:
"Everyone can share in some way in the life of the Church; everyone can be part of the community, nor should the doors of the sacraments be closed for simply any reason. The Eucharist, although it is the fullness of sacramental life, is not a prize for the perfect but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak."
Mosca; bringing this back on topic. I was raised Episcopalean, mostly in a church with an excommunicated (because of) married priest. Went to a Jesuit university; was nearly sold on the beauty, but got enough stench of hypocrisy to walk away just in time. That's 30 years ago, and I've grown away from religion in general and Christianity in the specific. I say that to say that I think this Pope could convert me. He understands so much about what is right in Catholicism while being willing to change what is wrong. Very inspiring.
To me its hardly inspiring and i don't even know whats being changed, I dont need to know because I know its all about the money, To little to late, here comes atheism and ScientologyQuote: beachbumbabsQuote: Mosca
Pope: No more business as usual
The Pope has issued an apostolic exhortation, Evangelii Gaudium (full text here). In it, he proposes sweeping changes, from top to bottom. Honestly, I could get behind this. Except for the god thing, of course, that is silly.
Some money quotes:
"Some of these customs may be beautiful, but they no longer serve as means of communicating the Gospel. We should not be afraid to re-examine them. At the same time, the Church has rules or precepts which may have been quite effective in their time, but no longer have the same usefulness for directing and shaping people’s lives."
"More than by fear of going astray, my hope is that we will be moved by the fear of remaining shut up within structures which give us a false sense of security, within rules which make us harsh judges, within habits which make us feel safe, while at our door people are starving."
"Since I am called to put into practice what I ask of others, I too must think about a conversion of the papacy."
Regarding the "wafer wars", where pro-choice advocates are denied communion:
"Everyone can share in some way in the life of the Church; everyone can be part of the community, nor should the doors of the sacraments be closed for simply any reason. The Eucharist, although it is the fullness of sacramental life, is not a prize for the perfect but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak."
Mosca; bringing this back on topic. I was raised Episcopalean, mostly in a church with an excommunicated (because of) married priest. Went to a Jesuit university; was nearly sold on the beauty, but got enough stench of hypocrisy to walk away just in time. That's 30 years ago, and I've grown away from religion in general and Christianity in the specific. I say that to say that I think this Pope could convert me. He understands so much about what is right in Catholicism while being willing to change what is wrong. Very inspiring.
Quote: FrGambleIt is an awesome exhortation with an appropriate title, "Joy of the Gospel". I think Francis is helping people to realize, and in some cases remember, that God has a message of hope and wants true and lasting joy for all people.
What I see in Pope Francis is a person who is moving the balance from faith to works. Obviously faith is the essence of being a Catholic, but, as James wrote, faith without works is dead. Francis appears ready to make this plain: that unless you are really going to live your religion, it is just a veneer on who you are, and not who you are. To quote someone whom people might be surprised to learn is a devout Catholic: "If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we've got to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that he commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it." -- Stephen Colbert
I should be the Pope. Any votes on that?
Rule the First: NO WOMEN PRIESTS.
Rule the Second: NO ABORTIONS.
Rule the Third: NO DEBATE ON THE FIRST TWO RULES.
Quote: tournamentkingI don't see the point of this thread. If what the Pope says is just another platform for atheists and agnostics to rail against God or religion, all they're doing is exhibiting their insecure lives to everyone else, complete with their inability to resolve inner conflict along with possessing a near-raging anger that they hope will never go away.Come on friends. This is the holiday season, and the ONLY reason for the season is the birth of Christ, the Son of God, as in CHRISTmas. This new Pope is the first non-European in over a thousand years. Naturally he's trying to put himself on the map. Lets keep his efforts non-controversial.
I should be the Pope. Any votes on that?
I started it with all sincerity. I'm into this stuff, even though I'm an atheist. I sent my daughter to a Catholic school, she then got a scholarship to Notre Dame, and she is now teaching with the Holy Cross fathers in Chile.
Just because I don't believe in a god doesn't mean I have to hate. If others want to poke, I just ignore it. For me this pope is a breath of fresh air. I love reading what Fr Gamble thinks, and I'm really interested in how some high profile, highly intolerant Catholics react to this new interpretation of official doctrine. (Rick Santorum, I'm thinking of you.)
Quote: MoscaWhat I see in Pope Francis is a person who is moving the balance from faith to works. Obviously faith is the essence of being a Catholic, but, as James wrote, faith without works is dead. Francis appears ready to make this plain: that unless you are really going to live your religion, it is just a veneer on who you are, and not who you are. To quote someone whom people might be surprised to learn is a devout Catholic: "If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we've got to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that he commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it." -- Stephen Colbert
I admit it. I just don't want to love the poor nor serve the needy.
I just don't want to go around focusing on the handicapped, even the empty spaces with their large blue placards are an affront to decent people who wish to lead their lives without constant reminders of the lame, the halt, the blind, the poor or the whatever!
I don't want to hear bells at the grocery store doors. I don't want to see homeless congregating anywhere.
I'm glad that Roe v. Wade lead to a massive drop in crime rates and diminished numbers of bad people.
Poor boxes are a public nuisance. Religious symbols mar the neighborhood.
Every few months the TV networks announce new line ups of shows in a mad scramble of trend seeking behavior.
Every few years the major political parties do pretty much the same thing though it generally boils down to a chicken in every pot.
Every year or so we hold elections where candidates pretty much say the same thing but throw in as well that you will be given the chicken and the pot in return for your vote and somehow no one ever has to pay for chickens or pots or food stamps or medicine or recreational drugs or other rights. The yapping is always about Funds for Community Medicine but they always want to practice Catholic medicine.
Now we have the Catholic Church coming out with some publicity campaign. Is it an election year for them? Why are they doing this? Don't they still have the books bound with flesh of the victims of the Spanish Inquisition? Don't they still own all that land and all those buildings? Don't they still get all that tax money for orphans and the needy and use it for cult recruitment? Can some of you math types figure out the frequency of these announcements... which for some strange reason are usually aptly named as Bulls? If these people are closet cannibals why can't they "come out" and march around with Wafers Are Not Enough signs? Why are churches allowed to serve liquor without a liquor license?
Link here to Vatican Rag.
Quote: terapinedI'm an athiest and I think this pope rocks. Big fan. You go pope
I'm more agnostic, but I concur. Of all religions I have got along with Catholics best. And Francis definitely rocks. No BS with this guy; I'm shocked he got elected, but I love it.
I'm not religious but Personally I think all kids should at least go to a church once a week. Parents need to watch their kids just the same as they would around uncle Chester. Just because people attend church dose not make them good. Parents get to lax with this type of stuff.Quote: MoscaI started it with all sincerity. I'm into this stuff, even though I'm an atheist. I sent my daughter to a Catholic school
I was brought up going to a semi strict church 3 and 4 days a week(far to often and strict for me, to much church could cause rebellion) It was a good thing because It probably kept me a bit more honest and out of trouble. I did take some values away from the teachings. I was defiantly no angel but I never ended up in juvie, did drugs or killed any cats, statistically I should have.
Quote: terapinedI'm an athiest and I think this pope rocks. Big fan. You go pope
Amen brother! It is no secret I'm down on religion, but Pope Francis is one of the few Christian leaders I have some respect for.
Quote: WizardAmen brother! It is no secret I'm down on religion, but Pope Francis is one of the few Christian leaders I have some respect for.
Down is a bad word to use in modern English, imo, as it can also be used as a positive.
Personally I wouldn't use the phrase "down on religion" if you aren't "cool with Jesus", but almost everyone can be "down or cool with Francis". :)
Quote: WizardAmen brother! It is no secret I'm down on religion, but Pope Francis is one of the few Christian leaders I have some respect for.
Agreed. He's fantastic, a real world changer for the better.
I've seen this before and it always puzzles me. Why do believers think that non-believers are 1) insecure, 2) angry and 3) without a moral compass? Inability to resolve inner conflict is a new one for me though. I hadn't heard of that one.Quote: tournamentkingIf what the Pope says is just another platform for atheists and agnostics to rail against God or religion, all they're doing is exhibiting their insecure lives to everyone else, complete with their inability to resolve inner conflict along with possessing a near-raging anger that they hope will never go away
I know of few non-believers who are insecure, angry or lacking of a moral compass and none at a personal level. All the non-believers that I know are really nice people. One does a meals-on-wheels route on Fridays for no reason at all except to help people who need help, certainly not to please any invisible friend. I think that ascribing anger, insecurity or moral turpitude to non-believers is more of a case of projection and assumption than a reflection of reality. I think it's the believer thinking, What would I be like if God weren't judging me? Or maybe, What could I get away with if God weren't judging me?
Well this is going to piss some people off but here goes .....People with higher intelligence are less likely to believe in god.Quote: s2dbakerI've seen this before and it always puzzles me. Why do believers think that non-believers are 1) insecure, 2) angry and 3) without a moral compass? Inability to resolve inner conflict is a new one for me though. I hadn't heard of that one.
I know of few non-believers who are insecure, angry or lacking of a moral compass and none at a personal level. All the non-believers that I know are really nice people. One does a meals-on-wheels route on Fridays for no reason at all except to help people who need help, certainly not to please any invisible friend. I think that ascribing anger, insecurity or moral turpitude to non-believers is more of a case of projection and assumption than a reflection of reality. I think it's the believer thinking, What would I be like if God weren't judging me? Or maybe, What could I get away with if God weren't judging me?
Religious people are the most hypocritical and violent people around. I think Charles Manson believed in god, or he thought he was god. I cant remember.
I think its funny when Religious people say atheists are angry at god, I guess they are just as angry at Bigfoot to. Hard to be angry at something you don't think.
exists.
Religion is used for control and money.
Quote: AxelWolfWell this is going to piss some people off but here goes .....People with higher intelligence are less likely to believe in god. .
There is a sizable minority in the Scientific community that believe in God. I know, all these people smarter than you....kinda pisses you off, so there you go.
Charles Manson a religious person? Adolph Hitler? One of your greatest atheists, Joseph Stalin died in a strange way. (Eyewitness, his daughter)He rose up on his death bed, shook his fist at the heavens, fell back and died. Who was he shaking his fist at?
A true atheist would not care, so they are truly the most hypocritical of all.
And last of all by the (cough) smartest man in the world Stephen Hawking, the origin of the Universe: The law of gravity.
"minority" being the key word That helps my statement. There are always exception to the rule however the same Scientific community's many study's will show that my statement is true. Ask the smartest person on this board what they believe.Quote: DeMangoThere is a sizable minority in the Scientific community that believe in God. .
Albert Einstein Quote "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can change this for me"
This Pope is overstepping his bounds, and thinks because he emerged out of third world politics he can change the way we look at poverty etc. I personally want nothing to do with any of his crazy ideas. If he's so bush on equality, go make such speeches to the Hollywood hypocrites and see where that gets you.
Quote: AxelWolfReligious people are the most hypocritical and violent people around.
Why shouldn't they be? Christians drive around with bumper stickers that say "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven." As long as you're forgiven, why not just do whatever you want?
Sorry to harp on this again, but I just can't get past the arrogance of that philosophy. I will say that I don't think you would see that bumper sticker on the Popemobile.
Non-Believers on the other hand are free to ask themselves What can I do unto others that I would wish them to do unto me? They don't have to wonder if an invisible friend is going to approve or disapprove or forgive. I take responsibility for knowing what's wrong and what's right. I don't need an invisible friend to do it for me. And nothing could make me more secure, happy and good for the sake of being good.Quote: WizardWhy shouldn't they be? Christians drive around with bumper stickers that say "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven." As long as you're forgiven, why not just do whatever you want?
Sorry to harp on this again, but I just can't get past the arrogance of that philosophy. I will say that I don't think you would see that bumper sticker on the Popemobile.
I trust my own judgement better than a God that floods the planet, killing everything on it, just because He thought that the humans He made were wicked and regretted making them (Genesis 6:7) or that same God who murdered 42 children for making fun of a guy with male pattern baldness (2 Kings 2:23-24) or a God that murders a fig tree because it wasn't bearing fruit out of season (Mark 11:12-14 and Matthew 21:18-22) or a God that commits one person into slavery and all of his descendants in perpetuity because that guy's father saw his granddad naked and passed out drunk (Genesis 9:18-27). Seriously!
By the way, don't misconstrue the above as anger. It's puzzlement. I don't understand why anyone would willingly bow to that God. It's an evil God. In all of the bible, Satan who is supposed to be the incarnation of evil kills 10 people (and a large number of livestock and servants which we'll assume are descendants of the previously mentioned Canaan and therefor do not count) and only does that with God's explicit permission in what appears to be a bet (Job 1:12-19). Like I said, puzzlement.
Quote: tournamentkingThis Pope is overstepping his bounds, and thinks because he emerged out of third world politics he can change the way we look at poverty etc. I personally want nothing to do with any of his crazy ideas. If he's so bush on equality, go make such speeches to the Hollywood hypocrites and see where that gets you.
Speaking as someone who used to teach Catholic doctrine to Catholics, the pope cannot overstep his bounds. He sets the bounds; he is God's representative on earth. Quoting from Dogmatic Constitution of the Church of Christ, established at the First Vatican Council,
"If anyone says that the blessed Apostle Peter was not established by the Lord Christ as the chief of all the apostles, and the visible head of the whole militant Church, or, that the same received great honour but did not receive from the same our Lord Jesus Christ directly and immediately the primacy in true and proper jurisdiction: let him be anathema.
"If anyone says that it is not from the institution of Christ the Lord Himself, or by divine right that the blessed Peter has perpetual successors in the primacy over the universal Church, or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in the same primacy, let him be anathema.
"If anyone thus speaks, that the Roman Pontiff has only the office of inspection or direction, but not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the universal Church, not only in things which pertain to faith and morals, but also in those which pertain to the discipline and government of the Church spread over the whole world; or, that he possesses only the more important parts, but not the whole plenitude of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate, or over the churches altogether and individually, and over the pastors and the faithful altogether and individually: let him be anathema.
"We, adhering faithfully to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God, our Saviour, the elevation of the Catholic religion and the salvation of Christian peoples, with the approbation of the sacred Council, teach and explain that the dogma has been divinely revealed: that the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra, that is, when carrying out the duty of the pastor and teacher of all Christians by his supreme apostolic authority he defines a doctrine of faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, through the divine assistance promised him in blessed Peter, operates with that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer wished that His church be instructed in defining doctrine on faith and morals; and so such definitions of the Roman Pontiff from himself, but not from the consensus of the Church, are unalterable. But if anyone presumes to contradict this definition of Ours, which may God forbid: let him be anathema." (boldface added)
So, by stating that Pope Francis has overstepped his bounds, then you have become anathema. That's the way it is with Catholicism, though. You are either in, or out. There is no middle ground nor gray area.
Pope Francis, like Christ, is preaching to his contemporary times, living in the world as he finds it. Modern Catholicism is moribund and failing its own adherents; he is working to bring it back to a relevant, Living church. I admire his insight and initiative in doing so and hope he continues.
Quote: MoscaThat is one of the things I'm hopeful for. Pope Francis has said that a lot of the trappings and ceremony have no more purpose, and he is re-examining the papistry. You might see what you hope to see, Face!
I feel dumb. I've read and reread, but I still can't figure out what I may see, nor what it is I've been hoping to see. Mind spelling it out? It's bugging me ><
Quote: FaceI feel dumb. I've read and reread, but I still can't figure out what I may see, nor what it is I've been hoping to see. Mind spelling it out? It's bugging me ><
Did you delete a post? I thought I read one where you wouldn't believe it until the church divested itself of its property and wealth. Pope Francis is already making enemies in the Vatican Bank. He is examining the value of the trappings and ceremony of the position of pope (and by extension, the value of the Church's wealth). If it wasn't you, then I was mistaken, sorry.
Francis probably feels like Paul and Barnabas in the Acts of the Apostles when they come preaching and working miracles and the people call them Zeus and Hermes and want to worship them. I imagine a humble and holy guy like Francis would be screaming, "He must increase and I must decrease!" Pope Francis would be the first to admit that all he is doing is only a pale imitation of Jesus Christ. If you think Francis is great wait until you get to know the real deal Jesus of Nazareth. That guy makes Francis look like s2dbaker.
Pope Francis is a reformer, not a revolutionary. What is more I think he is the perfect guy to come after JPII and Benedict XVI, not to break with tradition or Church teaching, but show its dynamism and power when put into action. Like the Wizard said Francis is all about actions speak louder than words. Our world knows the teachings of Christ and often ridicule them. Now that they are seeing only a faint glimpse of what would happen if not only the Pope, but the Bishops, Priests, Deacons, Religious, and most importantly the laity lived them out - they are in awe.
Also, Pope Francis said that his message was for everyone, not just the believers. So I believe we are justified in rejoicing alongside Catholics.
It would have been nice if the big J actually taught that lesson but He chose instead to blather on about mountaintops and seas and praying for whatever the heck you feel like. Read your bible Fr. You will be enlightened.Quote: FrGambleYour prophetic example of what will happen to the Pharisees and leaders if their faith only looks pretty but produces no fruit, or produces fruit only when convenient or in season, would be unfortunately diminished.
Quote: Mosca
Also, Pope Francis said that his message was for everyone, not just the believers. So I believe we are justified in rejoicing alongside Catholics.
True enough and believe me I love the fact that the world is in love with Francis. It's just that I am sure the Pope would join me in hoping and praying that this translates into more people falling in love with Jesus, who as you point out is for everyone, not just the believers.
Quote: FrGambleTrue enough and believe me I love the fact that the world is in love with Francis. It's just that I am sure the Pope would join me in hoping and praying that this translates into more people falling in love with Jesus, who as you point out is for everyone, not just the believers.
As is only fair and fitting, for a pope and a priest!
Quote: s2dbakerIt would have been nice if the big J actually taught that lesson but He chose instead to blather on about mountaintops and seas and praying for whatever the heck you feel like. Read your bible Fr. You will be enlightened.
I really do love you bro, good post. LOL
Now seriously though, in the same 21st chapter of Matthew Jesus gives us two good parables that help us make sense of the prophetic action involving the fig tree. Verses 28-32 speak about two sons, one who looks the part but doesn't do anything and the other who isn't the 'goody two shoes' but actually does what is asked - spoiler alert - the one who actually bears fruit does the Father's will. Then to really drive home the point of the fig tree read verses 33-46 again of the same chapter as the fig tree. In Mark's Gospel the beginning of the next chapter (Mk. 12:1-12) gives you the same parable of the tenants. If you read these parables and go back to look at the fig tree incident I think it will become clearer. You are correct sir, read your Bible (not just certain parts) and you will be enlightened.
Quote: FrGambleDon't get me wrong I appreciate the kind words about our dear holy father the Pope, but they all feel like backhanded compliments to me. I imagine Francis would be mortified. "We really like you, but this Jesus guy whom you love more than anything else in the world and the Church He founded, which you have given your life too, are really silly and bad." Umm...thanks I think.
Francis probably feels like Paul and Barnabas in the Acts of the Apostles when they come preaching and working miracles and the people call them Zeus and Hermes and want to worship them. I imagine a humble and holy guy like Francis would be screaming, "He must increase and I must decrease!" Pope Francis would be the first to admit that all he is doing is only a pale imitation of Jesus Christ. If you think Francis is great wait until you get to know the real deal Jesus of Nazareth. That guy makes Francis look like s2dbaker.
Pope Francis is a reformer, not a revolutionary. What is more I think he is the perfect guy to come after JPII and Benedict XVI, not to break with tradition or Church teaching, but show its dynamism and power when put into action. Like the Wizard said Francis is all about actions speak louder than words. Our world knows the teachings of Christ and often ridicule them. Now that they are seeing only a faint glimpse of what would happen if not only the Pope, but the Bishops, Priests, Deacons, Religious, and most importantly the laity lived them out - they are in awe.
I don't think of Pope Francis as either a reformer or a revolutionary. I think he lives by the precepts of Christ Himself more closely than any Pope in modern history, even JPII, who was also worthy. In doing so, he casts into shadow many imperfectly translated traditions, sacraments, and outgrowths of the Church Christ died to create. He is asking for all Church leaders to lead by example; by drinking from the clay chalice, not the golden cup. To value richness in spirit over riches on earth. And to reach out to the least of us with warmth and kindness, not to subjugate us into worship, but to join with us and rise together.
There are a lot of people who are quite happy to be at the top of the pyramid of Church power and wealth who are not going to want to do this. So he is going to have to go around them and rally the multitudes, just as Christ did in dismissing the ways of the Pharisees, and probably just as dangerously to himself. I'm guessing it's that pesky 4th vow of personal allegiance combined with the intellectual tradition of the Jesuits that drives him, and may well cause a huge rift within the Church leadership.
Quote: FrGambleCongratulations on the Pope receiving Time magazine's Person of the Year!
Yeah, way to go Pope!
