Foxwoods Fighting For It's Life
March 15th, 2012 at 9:20:00 PM
permalink
Foxwoods Is Fighting For Its Life
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
March 15th, 2012 at 9:33:42 PM
permalink
MGM has tons of money they should chip in more to their Foxwoods Hotel
March 15th, 2012 at 10:56:47 PM
permalink
That visage is scarier than anything in a fairy tale.
March 15th, 2012 at 10:57:48 PM
permalink
So they owe 2.3 billion to 75 creditors, were paying all the
adult tribe members 100K a year for doing nothing, they built
a $225 million tribute to themselves and called it a museum,
and now they're crying like babies. Half (or more) of the secret
to being in business in knowing when to cut your losses and
get the hell out. Their customer base dwindles with every
new casino built, their customer base is maxed out, yet the CEO
thinks they can 'turn things around' with a 300,000 sq ft outlet
mall. And he admits they stopped paying comps to table game
players, like we didn't know that already.
Bye bye Foxwoods.
adult tribe members 100K a year for doing nothing, they built
a $225 million tribute to themselves and called it a museum,
and now they're crying like babies. Half (or more) of the secret
to being in business in knowing when to cut your losses and
get the hell out. Their customer base dwindles with every
new casino built, their customer base is maxed out, yet the CEO
thinks they can 'turn things around' with a 300,000 sq ft outlet
mall. And he admits they stopped paying comps to table game
players, like we didn't know that already.
Bye bye Foxwoods.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
March 16th, 2012 at 2:12:08 AM
permalink
It does raise an interesting question about what level of saturation of casinos there are, and how to get new customers. In comments, apart from the usual hand-wringing of folks who disdain gambling as a legitimate pursuit (while they continue to smoke out, or shop to they drop, or eat all they can, or whatever), there is a good point made about how the club scene has expanded in Vegas over the last ten years (although showing their age, they call them "discos"). My experience, though, is that clubbers generally don't make good gamblers. Walk through Planet Hollywood or Caesar's at midnight and although you will find more of the target future demographic than, say, at the Palace Station, I would say that the majority of people are still 40+, loud annoying music notwithstanding.
March 16th, 2012 at 4:27:17 AM
permalink
Quote: EvenBobAnd he admits they stopped paying comps to table game
players, like we didn't know that already.
They're not going to stop comping Table Games players, they're going to stop offering insanely good rules and rebates on loss. I don't know how long it's going to take for casinos to realize what a horrible idea rebates on loss is.
I do second your sentiment on "bye bye Foxwoods." They've abused their exclusivity for far too long and it's time they paid the price.
March 16th, 2012 at 6:00:48 AM
permalink
Interesting to me that MoheganSun, the Pequots' (owners of Foxwoods) main competition is owned by the same tribe, the Mohegans,
who conspired with the English colonists in 1637 to decimate the Pequot tribe.
I guess history does repeat itself in some strange ways.
who conspired with the English colonists in 1637 to decimate the Pequot tribe.
I guess history does repeat itself in some strange ways.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
March 16th, 2012 at 8:44:03 AM
permalink
Good article and worth reading. I would take issue with a couple factual points: (1) Don Johnson did not "gain an advantage" by the casino allowing him to re-split aces. That is only a 0.05% player swing. He also was almost certainly not counting cards. He got his edge through loss rebates. (2) "Skilled slot players" do exist if you count video poker.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
March 16th, 2012 at 8:51:39 AM
permalink
Chief Wyandanch needs a casino built in his honor. Put it in Wyandanch, NY.Quote: WongBoInteresting to me that MoheganSun, the Pequots' (owners of Foxwoods) main competition is owned by the same tribe, the Mohegans,
who conspired with the English colonists in 1637 to decimate the Pequot tribe.
I guess history does repeat itself in some strange ways.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
March 16th, 2012 at 9:03:54 AM
permalink
Quote: NicksGamingStuffMGM has tons of money they should chip in more to their Foxwoods Hotel
MGM Mirage licensed its name to the Pequots. This enabled Foxwoods to gain access to MGM's data base and enabled MGM to try to establish a foothold in the northeast. It didn't turn out as expected and the wheels started coming off at Foxwoods right around the time that the MGM addition opened.
MGM Resorts International now seems to be keeping their distance.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
March 16th, 2012 at 9:28:57 AM
permalink
This was a fascinating article, though I've never been to either casino. To me, it seems like everything that's both right and wrong with casino expansion. They were innovative in what they accomplished, but let's face it, they got greedy. In fact, the best thing right now would be for Connecticuit to legalize state gambling, so they could lose the 25% tax on slot revenue. It wouldn't solve the other problems, but at least there wouldn't be that cut coming right off the top.
2.3b is a lot in debt; I'm not doubting that. However, I agree that some of that is probably a bit inflated. A casino that large still attracts a ton of players. Control of spending and a back to basics mentality might get this place back on track.
2.3b is a lot in debt; I'm not doubting that. However, I agree that some of that is probably a bit inflated. A casino that large still attracts a ton of players. Control of spending and a back to basics mentality might get this place back on track.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
March 16th, 2012 at 10:38:15 AM
permalink
Quote: PopCanThey're not going to stop comping Table Games players,
They might as well have, it amounts to the same
thing. Its all moot anyway, the new casinos coming
to NY state will take so much of Foxwood's business
that they're doomed. Like many Indian tribes, they
were poor money managers. They turned out to be
a bad example of a casino owner, they didn't learn
the most important thing every pro gambler knows.
Money management is everything.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
March 16th, 2012 at 11:01:05 AM
permalink
Turns out my casino buddy got out of work early and after winning some video baccarat at Empire City, he wants to go to CT.
Of course, to me that can only mean one thing: Mohegan Sun!
Of course, to me that can only mean one thing: Mohegan Sun!
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
March 16th, 2012 at 1:13:16 PM
permalink
Quote: WongBoTurns out my casino buddy got out of work early and after winning some video baccarat at Empire City, he wants to go to CT.
Of course, to me that can only mean one thing: Mohegan Sun!
Six deck S17 blackjack with a 0.35% house edge which is not bad for the only game in town. Just watch the penetration.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
March 16th, 2012 at 2:07:52 PM
permalink
Quote: EvenBobLike many Indian tribes, they
were poor money managers. They turned out to be
a bad example of a casino owner
Not sure why you linked being poor money managers and a "bad example of a casino owner" to Indian Tribes?
All you have to do is look at Stations, Boyd, CZR's ridiculous debt load, MGM's City Center Project, etc. There are lots of examples of poor money management and "bad casino owners" that exist off tribal lands.
March 16th, 2012 at 2:32:17 PM
permalink
Quote: ParadigmNot sure why you linked being poor money managers and a "bad example of a casino owner" to Indian Tribes?
Because they're an Indian tribe casino. And lots of Indian tribes
have their heads up their butts when it comes to running
a business. The big Indian casino in my state was paying the
tribe members $75K a year until all the smaller casinos started
opening. Now they pay less than $10K a year and the tribe
is crying like babies. They thought the big payday was going to
last forever. So now the casino is in debt and losing more and
more business every year. Instead of taking most of the money
and paying off debt, the paid the tribe members for sitting on their
asses. Real bright. They also squandered 10's of millions in paying
lawyers and buying ad time to keep other Indian casinos from
opening for as long as possible. When a tribe gets 'theirs', they do
everything in their power to that see the other tribes get screwed.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
March 16th, 2012 at 5:28:59 PM
permalink
Quote: teddysGood article and worth reading. I would take issue with a couple factual points: (1) Don Johnson did not "gain an advantage" by the casino allowing him to re-split aces. That is only a 0.05% player swing. He also was almost certainly not counting cards. He got his edge through loss rebates. (2) "Skilled slot players" do exist if you count video poker.
I was also surprised by the section on Don Johnson. I know he used to be a card counter, but I was pretty sure that his recent run through AC was basically a lot of luck combined with favorable rules and loss rebates, and didn't include counting cards.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
March 16th, 2012 at 10:12:45 PM
permalink
FWIW: Mohegan Sun refinanced a billion recently. I don't think the good times are rollin at either joint. MGM Grand at FW was a bad idea. The Schagticokes *should have* (not in hind-sight, I was opining that when the BIA got goofy) been permitted their casino on the W. bank of the Housatonic, or up on Furnace Creek. For the N.E. US this was strictly a location matter. So the tribes got greedy, and selfish, and it aint lookin good in S.E. CT. with Mass. gettin the picture soon. Nope, bettin on the customer (losers that they are in the world of gaming) is never a good idea, and screwing your neighbor bring about bad karma sooner than later. GFL idiots.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
March 17th, 2012 at 8:48:50 AM
permalink
Mohegan Sun is a front runner for one of the three casinos to be sited in Massachusetts. In 2007 they secured a 99 year lease on 152 acres just off exit 8 of the Mass Turnpike in the town of Palmer. In 2009 they opened a marketing office on the town's main street. They have been wining and dining the town ever since and just this week gave them a check for $50,000 to cover "expenses".
Coincidentally this land in Palmer is on the same route 32 as the original Mohegan Sun in Uncasville,Ct.
Coincidentally this land in Palmer is on the same route 32 as the original Mohegan Sun in Uncasville,Ct.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
March 17th, 2012 at 10:34:32 AM
permalink
Quote: 98ClubsScrewing your neighbor bring about bad karma sooner than later.
As the owners and managers in Atlantic City can attest to as first-hand witnesses.
March 17th, 2012 at 2:06:55 PM
permalink
It should be no surprise that the water level drops dramatically when the floodgates are opened.
"What, me worry?"
March 17th, 2012 at 2:24:32 PM
permalink
Quote: MrVIt should be no surprise that the water level drops dramatically when the floodgates are opened.
Try selling that idea to the ninth ward of New Orleans. Only took a "small" crack for the water level to rise a bit.
Yes, like most topics, it's mostly in the perspective.
March 17th, 2012 at 2:55:18 PM
permalink
Quote: DocTry selling that idea to the ninth ward of New Orleans. Only took a "small" crack for the water level to rise a bit.
Yes, like most topics, it's mostly in the perspective.
Those weren't floodgates that opened, they were levees that failed.
"What, me worry?"
March 17th, 2012 at 3:24:39 PM
permalink
Then consider the more recent high water situation when they did open the Mississippi flood gates. To those upstream, the waters did stop rising (I think), but to those in the flat lands on the other side of the gates, the water definitely was rising and flooding their lands and houses. As I said, it's a matter of perspective.
March 17th, 2012 at 4:36:52 PM
permalink
Quote: DocThen consider the more recent high water situation when they did open the Mississippi flood gates. To those upstream, the waters did stop rising (I think), but to those in the flat lands on the other side of the gates, the water definitely was rising and flooding their lands and houses. As I said, it's a matter of perspective.
So, how does your observation about perspective relate to the fact that with more and more casinos being built, there is less and less business to go around?
Nothing defeats a monopoly better than new competition.
"What, me worry?"
