Valley Forge Casino Resort in King of Prussia, PA
February 15th, 2012 at 9:35:26 PM
permalink
So this casino is scheduled to open this summer in the Valley Forge Convention Center right next to the National Historic Park.
I was looking forward to it because it is just one more casino that I can add to my list of places within three hours drive.
I was checking out their website and they actually are planning on charging membership fee to play in the casino!
The memberships are $30 for three months and $69 a year.
I think it's fine if they want to have a private casino within the casino, but this is ridiculous!
Has anyone heard of such a thing?
http://www.vfcasino.com/membership.asp
Anyone in the area that plans on going to VFCR when it opens better contact them to tell them how stupid this idea is.
Write to them at info@vfcasino.com
I was looking forward to it because it is just one more casino that I can add to my list of places within three hours drive.
I was checking out their website and they actually are planning on charging membership fee to play in the casino!
The memberships are $30 for three months and $69 a year.
I think it's fine if they want to have a private casino within the casino, but this is ridiculous!
Has anyone heard of such a thing?
http://www.vfcasino.com/membership.asp
Anyone in the area that plans on going to VFCR when it opens better contact them to tell them how stupid this idea is.
Write to them at info@vfcasino.com
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
February 15th, 2012 at 9:37:16 PM
permalink
I'd pay $70 a year to limit some of the scum I have to wade through at typical casinos, if I lived close enough.
February 15th, 2012 at 9:43:24 PM
permalink
In my experience, money is not an accurate predictor of the experience you will have around other people.
There are plenty of wealthy people who are completely unbearable as well.
And as I said, they could achieve this with a private club within the casino or a private high limit room like most places do.
There are plenty of wealthy people who are completely unbearable as well.
And as I said, they could achieve this with a private club within the casino or a private high limit room like most places do.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
February 15th, 2012 at 9:53:00 PM
permalink
Quote: WongBoIn my experience, money is not an accurate predictor of the experience you will have around other people.
There are plenty of wealthy people who are completely unbearable as well.
And as I said, they could achieve this with a private club within the casino or a private high limit room like most places do.
You clearly have not spent much time in Downtown Vegas, or are blind/deaf. Hanging around white/red chip joints is AWFUL. Rich people have their own attitude and entitlement problems, but I will take that 100 to 1 over worrying about the home-made stabbing weapons fellow patrons have at your typical casino.
February 15th, 2012 at 10:04:18 PM
permalink
I have not spent much time in Vegas and I have only played on the strip the few times I've been there, so you are correct.
I know from playing in AC that it is nice to get away from the lowlifes
and play at the suburban casinos that are popping up all over eastern PA.
The thing about this new place is that it is in a nice suburban location, near a high end shopping mall and a national park.
Maybe they want to prevent criticism because they are next to the park, maybe they want to keep the tourists and history buffs out,
But there are very few shiv-carrying people in that area, so it isn't quite the same thing.
I know from playing in AC that it is nice to get away from the lowlifes
and play at the suburban casinos that are popping up all over eastern PA.
The thing about this new place is that it is in a nice suburban location, near a high end shopping mall and a national park.
Maybe they want to prevent criticism because they are next to the park, maybe they want to keep the tourists and history buffs out,
But there are very few shiv-carrying people in that area, so it isn't quite the same thing.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
February 16th, 2012 at 3:59:08 AM
permalink
Quote: WongBoSo this casino is scheduled to open this summer in the Valley Forge Convention Center right next to the National Historic Park.The memberships are $30 for three months and $69 a year.
When PA state government wrote the law in 2004 permitting casinos they envisioned the mini-casinos (500 machines or less) as going to high end resorts where the casino would be part of a draw to bring people to the state. They awarded one license to Nemocalin Woodlands Resort.
The Greenbrier in West Virginia was a similar resort. A casino license was granted to them by West Virginia state, because it was perceived as a draw to bring wealthy people into the state who might also want to gamble in addition to shelling out a fortune for expensive rooms , dining, golf and spa treatments.
Valley Forge Convention center was a controversial choice. It was not seen as very exclusive, and it was thought that it would cater to a limited number of suburbanites. Inevitably the choice for the license was challenged in court. One of the litigants was PARX casino (the largest casino in the state and the one who stood the most to lose from competition with Valley Forge).
I think that the operators changed their business model partly to meet objections from the litigants.
February 16th, 2012 at 4:42:16 AM
permalink
Living within an hour of this, I actually like the idea and feel they may have to reward those who do choose to play there and purchase the membership. If the numbers of players are lower, they may either offer better comps or table odds than the other casinos. Or, on the other end, they may not make enough to survive and will try to clean out the few players they have.
But on the question, I dont have a problem with the law and at a minimum, they will probably provide enough benefits for members to legally give them the fee back.
But on the question, I dont have a problem with the law and at a minimum, they will probably provide enough benefits for members to legally give them the fee back.
February 16th, 2012 at 5:12:32 AM
permalink
Quoting the rules:
Not quite that exclusive.
Quote:Registered overnight guests will receive access for themselves and any other individuals registered to the same room.
Guests of the property who are attending a convention, meeting or a private function are granted access to the casino floor.
Guests who spend a minimum of $10 in one of our dining, nightlife or retail outlets are granted access to the casino floor.
Individuals who purchase one of our memberships will receive access to the casino floor for themselves and a guest for the term of the membership.
Not quite that exclusive.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
February 16th, 2012 at 5:37:50 AM
permalink
Well that's part of my objection. They are not really being very exclusive, considering you can get in for buying dinner.
So why charge a membership fee if the general public can get around it for a $10 snack?
It just seems to be driven more by greed than exclusivity
and I am sure the average player loses more than the membership fee in one session anyway.
I think there is some validity to the supposition that this was part of a legal settlement.
I will have to look into it some more.
So why charge a membership fee if the general public can get around it for a $10 snack?
It just seems to be driven more by greed than exclusivity
and I am sure the average player loses more than the membership fee in one session anyway.
I think there is some validity to the supposition that this was part of a legal settlement.
I will have to look into it some more.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
February 16th, 2012 at 7:35:41 AM
permalink
That's rather odd. Usually when you pay a membership fee or an entry fee you get some benefit in return. For example warehouse clubs like Sam's or Costco charge a membership fee, but it's worth paying it because you save considerable money buying some things in bulk (and for small businesses such savings can be huge). This casino seems more like a movie theater that would require you to pay an entrance fee in order to be able to buy tickets for a movie.
Is there any comeptition nearby? If there is, they'll drop the fee soon enough. if not, who knows? They may succeed in spite of it. Some people will pay for the privilege of being allowed to hand their money to the house. Really, it's a surcharge for gambling.
Is there any comeptition nearby? If there is, they'll drop the fee soon enough. if not, who knows? They may succeed in spite of it. Some people will pay for the privilege of being allowed to hand their money to the house. Really, it's a surcharge for gambling.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
February 16th, 2012 at 7:56:06 AM
permalink
There are three other casinos within 50 miles of this location...
Harrah's Chester (25 miles), Parx in Bensalem (30 miles), and Sugar House in Philadelphia (16 miles).
Valley Forge announced yesterday that the opening date is March 31.
The casino access was stipulated by the PA Gaming Control Board as the result of pressure from the other casinos.
This will be PA's eleventh casino, tying the number in NJ until Revel opens in AC on May 25.
It has been reported that Pennsylvania is poised to pass Atlantic City as the second largest gaming market in the U.S.
Pennsylvania casino revenue 2011: $3.19B. Atlantic City casino revenue 2011: $3.3B.
Harrah's Chester (25 miles), Parx in Bensalem (30 miles), and Sugar House in Philadelphia (16 miles).
Valley Forge announced yesterday that the opening date is March 31.
The casino access was stipulated by the PA Gaming Control Board as the result of pressure from the other casinos.
This will be PA's eleventh casino, tying the number in NJ until Revel opens in AC on May 25.
It has been reported that Pennsylvania is poised to pass Atlantic City as the second largest gaming market in the U.S.
Pennsylvania casino revenue 2011: $3.19B. Atlantic City casino revenue 2011: $3.3B.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
February 16th, 2012 at 8:16:59 AM
permalink
Quote: NareedIs there any comeptition nearby? If there is, they'll drop the fee soon enough. if not, who knows? They may succeed in spite of it.
Distances to other PA casinos:
24 miles Sugarhouse Casino (1,602 slots)
26 miles Harrah's Chester Racino (2,978 slots)
30 miles PARX Racino (3,534 slots)
52 miles Bethlehem Sands Casino (2,940 slots)
85 miles Penn National Hollywood Racino (2,449 slots)
The competition usually has more slot machines and in some case more tables. PA State law sets the minimum distance between casinos at 15 miles. Valley Forge Center is limited by law to 600 slot machines,and I think only 50 tables,
In PA slot machines don't sit empty for very long. I think that this casinos is trying to limit access simply because there is not that many machines.
February 16th, 2012 at 8:31:34 AM
permalink
It is not hard to see why Pennsylvania is going to surpass AC in the coming year or two.
The casinos are more accessible to a greater number of people
and are in far nicer surroundings than the mean streets of Atlantic City.
PA Casino Map
The casinos are more accessible to a greater number of people
and are in far nicer surroundings than the mean streets of Atlantic City.
PA Casino Map
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
February 16th, 2012 at 9:27:03 AM
permalink
As I understand it, "Pay to play" fees are illegal in Nevada, and I thought all gaming areas had to be open to the public (given that the "public" has the bankroll to participate in high limt room games).
I wonder how PA lawmakers justify the discrimination caused by an access fee to a publicly supported venue. Has there been some ACLU backlash?
I wonder how PA lawmakers justify the discrimination caused by an access fee to a publicly supported venue. Has there been some ACLU backlash?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
February 16th, 2012 at 1:05:10 PM
permalink
Quote: WongBoThis will be PA's eleventh casino, tying the number in NJ until Revel opens in AC on May 25.
Revel opens somewhere around March 31-April 2, depending on which news article you put faith in and whether you're looking for a hard, soft or medium opening.
February 16th, 2012 at 1:26:54 PM
permalink
Revel opens for previews on April 2 but the Grand Opening is May 25.
Straight from the horses mouth: http://revelresorts.com/news/
Straight from the horses mouth: http://revelresorts.com/news/
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
February 16th, 2012 at 1:51:24 PM
permalink
Quote: pacomartinDistances to other PA casinos:
I wouldn't call that nearby, but then rules and customs are different in the US. I've heard that in New Mexico 100 miles is considered a stone's throw as far as distances go (I don't claim that's accurate).
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
February 16th, 2012 at 3:23:56 PM
permalink
When I lived in New Mexico a few decades ago, we thought nothing of driving 50 miles each way to get a pizza. Of course, we were paying 24.9 cents for a gallon of gasoline.
February 16th, 2012 at 3:27:27 PM
permalink
Quote: bbvk05You clearly have not spent much time in Downtown Vegas, or are blind/deaf. Hanging around white/red chip joints is AWFUL. Rich people have their own attitude and entitlement problems, but I will take that 100 to 1 over worrying about the home-made stabbing weapons fellow patrons have at your typical casino.
Hey, I epitomize the low ender red chip player, and we are a lot of fun!
Vote for Nobody 2020!
February 17th, 2012 at 7:40:11 PM
permalink
Quote: pacomartinDistances to other PA casinos:
24 miles Sugarhouse Casino (1,602 slots)
26 miles Harrah's Chester Racino (2,978 slots)
30 miles PARX Racino (3,534 slots)
52 miles Bethlehem Sands Casino (2,940 slots)
85 miles Penn National Hollywood Racino (2,449 slots)
It's funny how they'll consider all of PA one "market," simply because none of the casinos are that close to one another. I think it's more appropriate to look at the true markets of PA: Philadelphia metro (includes Harrah's Chester, Sugarhouse, and PARX) and Pittsburgh metro (Rivers, Meadows). All the other casinos could be considered single casino markets, and would be in any other state.
On my trip across PA, I found my favorites to be Mohegan Sun Pocono Downs and believe it or not, Sugarhouse. Sugarhouse had the BEST service, IMO, and the casino was colorful an edgy. The table mins were ridiculous for a Monday morning... PARX was my absolute least favorite by far... table mins were UNREAL for the time of day and amount of traffic. All the rest fell somewhere in between.
I will be interested to see how the fee does at Valley Forge. Nobody likes the idea of it being on a historical site... until it starts making tons of cash. Then my guess it expands...
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
February 18th, 2012 at 7:31:06 PM
permalink
Quote: TiltpoulI will be interested to see how the fee does at Valley Forge. Nobody likes the idea of it being on a historical site... until it starts making tons of cash. Then my guess it expands...
Sugarhouse is 16 miles from PARX and 18 miles from Harrah's Chester. There was another license for downtown Philadelphia given to Foxwood's and then later taken away for lack of progress. Foxwoods has been appealing the case in court, see:Foxwoods' Philadelphia casino case could take years.
Valley Forge won a limited license from the state which prohibits them from going over 600 machines. But none of the casinos were going to be allowed to have table games, until the state got into fiscal difficulty. The casinos paid $75 million apiece, just for the right to host table games. That took care of the deficit last year. But predictably, the state has a $500 million deficit this year as well.
New Jersey released their January numbers:Slot machine win fell 0.1 percent, to $164.7million (including comp play) , while table game win decreased by 20.2 percent, to $72.2 million. Pennsylvania table games were $53.0 million and slot revenue was $190.5 million (excluding comp play) for the same month. So NJ has clearly passed the baton to PA for slot play. Table games it is still in the lead.
PA total revenue was a few percentage points higher than NJ for 2011.
Nareed,
Long distance driving is much more prevalent out west where cities are far apart. They are also relatively small cities compared to the East Coast. But as the Western cities grow in size, and gasoline gets more expensive, there is more convergence in behavior. Philadelphia has 4 million people in the five counties considered the greater Philadelphia area. That is out of 12 million people for the state. So they are lilcensing more casinos in the area.
February 19th, 2012 at 7:22:17 AM
permalink
Each Category 3 facility approved by the Board can conduct gaming with up to 50 tables
in addition to operating up to 600 slot machines.
The approved plan for Valley Forge Casino permits the operation of the maximum 50 table games as follows:
23 Blackjack tables
4 Craps tables
4 Three-Card Poker tables
4 Roulette tables
4 Mini-Baccarat tables
3 Midi-Baccarat tables
2 Ultimate Texas Hold’em tables
2 Pai Gow tables
2 Pai Gow Poker tables, and
2 Let It Ride tables
in addition to operating up to 600 slot machines.
The approved plan for Valley Forge Casino permits the operation of the maximum 50 table games as follows:
23 Blackjack tables
4 Craps tables
4 Three-Card Poker tables
4 Roulette tables
4 Mini-Baccarat tables
3 Midi-Baccarat tables
2 Ultimate Texas Hold’em tables
2 Pai Gow tables
2 Pai Gow Poker tables, and
2 Let It Ride tables
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
February 19th, 2012 at 7:36:42 AM
permalink
Quote: WongBo
The approved plan for Valley Forge Casino permits the operation of the maximum 50 table games as follows:
23 Blackjack tables
4 Craps tables
4 Three-Card Poker tables
4 Roulette tables
4 Mini-Baccarat tables
3 Midi-Baccarat tables
2 Ultimate Texas Hold’em tables
2 Pai Gow tables
2 Pai Gow Poker tables, and
2 Let It Ride tables
I'm a bit surprised they are holding two tables for Pai Gow. I'm not familiar with the Asian population that would frequent that casino, but you'd think with limited options they would want to have those tables available for higher house edge games that would get more play from the general public. 8 baccarat tables seems like a lot too.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
February 19th, 2012 at 7:51:50 AM
permalink
I am assuming they will have high minimums on the baccarat and pai gow tables to offset the lower edge.
I think they have the pai gow tables mainly to remain competitive with the other eastern PA casinos
which all offer pai gow. Montgomery County, PA is 6.4% Asian vs. 2.7% in PA and 4.8% nationally.
I think they have the pai gow tables mainly to remain competitive with the other eastern PA casinos
which all offer pai gow. Montgomery County, PA is 6.4% Asian vs. 2.7% in PA and 4.8% nationally.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
February 19th, 2012 at 8:06:18 AM
permalink
Quote: WongBoI am assuming they will have high minimums on the baccarat and pai gow tables to offset the lower edge.
I think they have the pai gow tables mainly to remain competitive with the other eastern PA casinos
which all offer pai gow. Montgomery County, PA is 6.4% Asian vs. 2.7% in PA and 4.8% nationally.
Yeah, they'll offer Pai Gow to be competitive. I'm just surprised they are putting in two tables. My gut feeling is that many of the visitors to the area are history buffs who want to see the parks. While very few will probably gamble, I'm sure there are some that will venture to the casino... but I can't see a lot of those people playing Tiles. I think it's great they'll have two tables, but to me, it just seems excessive given the size of the casino.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
February 19th, 2012 at 8:52:18 AM
permalink
Quote: TiltpoulYeah, they'll offer Pai Gow to be competitive. I'm just surprised they are putting in two tables. My gut feeling is that many of the visitors to the area are history buffs who want to see the parks. While very few will probably gamble, I'm sure there are some that will venture to the casino... but I can't see a lot of those people playing Tiles. I think it's great they'll have two tables, but to me, it just seems excessive given the size of the casino.
Montgomery County, where VFCC is located is 5.93% Asian, and it is only an 11 mile drive to the Philadelphia county line (6.16% Asian). While those percentages don't seem very high compared to California counties, theses two counties are the most Asian (in terms of both absolute numbers and percentage) for Pennsylvania.
As usual, the assumption is that the Asian players will come to the casino in numbers much higher than their percentage of the general population.
In the Sands Casino in Northampton County, PA there are only 8K Asian residents in the county (2010 census), but the buses come every day from Chinatown in Manhattan. Virtually every single person on the buses is Asian, and the table games are completely dominated by Asian customers.
So Montgomery county has 46K Asian residents, It doesn't seem excessive to me.
February 19th, 2012 at 4:06:49 PM
permalink
Quote: pacomartinIn the Sands Casino in Northampton County, PA there are only 8K Asian residents in the county (2010 census), but the buses come every day from Chinatown in Manhattan. Virtually every single person on the buses is Asian, and the table games are completely dominated by Asian customers.
On my trip out there, I gathered that bus tourism was important, especially at Parx and Sands. I'm sure Valley Forge will have the same kind of traffic. My question is whether a "membership" casino will be appealing to bus travelers, although I suppose bus companies could have "group memberships," offering tickets to the passengers. Still Valley Forge's size still doesn't seem to support as many Asian-type games.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
February 19th, 2012 at 5:04:46 PM
permalink
Quote: TiltpoulOn my trip out there, I gathered that bus tourism was important, especially at Parx and Sands. Still Valley Forge's size still doesn't seem to support as many Asian-type games.
Valley Forge operators may have figured out how to beat the State government. The state government charge the casino operators 55% tax rate on the slot machines to try and recapture the money that was being lost to other states (primarily New Jersey).
But then they agreed to take on table games for a $25 million per casino fee and 14% tax on play. Now VFCC casino only has the 600 slot machines (still being taxed at 55%). The fifty table games are almost comparable to many of the full sized casinos. Perhaps this entry fee will make it exclusive enough to attract more ambitious table game players (including from the local Asian population). Given the much lower tax rates on table games, the VFCC could be more profitable than some of the full sized casinos.
Number of table games (not including poker or electronic table games)
113 PARX
113 SANDS BETHLEHEM
86 HARRAH'S CHESTER DOWNS
73 THE RIVERS
66 MOHEGAN SUN
61 MOUNT AIRY
58 THE MEADOWS
54 SUGARHOUSE
53 PENN NATIONAL
44 PRESQUE ISLE
February 19th, 2012 at 5:12:20 PM
permalink
The fee for table games is $7.5M
See: http://gamingcontrolboard.pa.gov/?pr=454
See: http://gamingcontrolboard.pa.gov/?pr=454
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
February 19th, 2012 at 7:05:18 PM
permalink
Quote: WongBoThe fee for table games is $7.5M
See: http://gamingcontrolboard.pa.gov/?pr=454
You are correct. The previous casinos paid $16.5 million apiece. I got the number on my previous post wrong.
February 20th, 2012 at 6:36:28 AM
permalink
A little late joining this discussion...
Sometime this summer I anticipate another trip to PA and NJ during which I hope to pick up souvenir chips from Valley Forge and Revel. It seems like the reasonable way for a transient to avoid the membership fee is to pick up lunch at a snack bar or something before playing. That would work for me, unless I am missing something.
Quote: P90Quoting the rules:
Not quite that exclusive.Quote:...Guests who spend a minimum of $10 in one of our dining, nightlife or retail outlets are granted access to the casino floor.
Sometime this summer I anticipate another trip to PA and NJ during which I hope to pick up souvenir chips from Valley Forge and Revel. It seems like the reasonable way for a transient to avoid the membership fee is to pick up lunch at a snack bar or something before playing. That would work for me, unless I am missing something.
February 20th, 2012 at 7:48:10 AM
permalink
I guess they figure if you have to buy a snack you won't be hungry enough to hustle a comp for lunch...
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
March 31st, 2012 at 7:03:31 PM
permalink
The casino opened last night at midnight.
They had 500 people waiting at the door and 1,000 people come in the first hour.
I will have to get over there sometime in the next few weeks and check it out.
Let me know if anyone gets there first!
They had 500 people waiting at the door and 1,000 people come in the first hour.
I will have to get over there sometime in the next few weeks and check it out.
Let me know if anyone gets there first!
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
March 31st, 2012 at 7:21:46 PM
permalink
" The casino itself will be more selective, with gambling restricted to people attending a convention, meeting or private function there; people who spend a minimum of $10 in one of the resort's dining, nightlife or retail outlets; or anyone who purchases a resort membership. "
Yeah, that is very, very, selective. LOL
Yeah, that is very, very, selective. LOL
