Tribal Gaming

What are you guys' opinion on tribal gaming in general? To clarify, I mean casinos (excluding bingo halls, although that is still a form of gambling) on Native American reservations. As we've all seen, within the past 20 years or so there has been a huge investment by the larger tribes to build Vegas-style casinos that offer similar accommodations. I live in Oklahoma City and one of the big ones here, Riverwind Casino, has lately been running commercials saying you can get EVERYTHING Vegas in their casino (trust me, you can't).

In particular, what are your thoughts on the "sovereign nation" aspect of it, to the extent that many tribes are self-regulating when it comes to slots and video poker?

To offer my initial opinion, and to be completely frank, I stopped wasting my time at Indian casinos after I _attempted_ to find the regulating body over the industry. Unlike the NGCB in NV, OK gives each tribe the power to regulate itself, as if that isn't a complete conflict of interest. I used to frequent the Indian casinos quite a bit, but now I just save up my gambling funds for my yearly trek to the LV strip.

Quote: desertair

To offer my initial opinion, and to be completely frank, I stopped wasting my time at Indian casinos

OK has more Indian casinos than any other state,
but I believe none of them offer craps or roulette. So
they don't offer what Vegas does, far from it. In MI,
if I took you to Soaring Eagle or Four Winds, you
couldn't tell the difference between them and Vegas,
except no free drinks. As far as I can tell, the regulations
are the same. I hear FL casinos suck, because the laws
are different there, they can really screw with you and
you have no recourse.

Quote: EvenBob

OK has more Indian casinos than any other state,
but I believe none of them offer craps or roulette.

This raises a point that I have never understood. Perhaps someone hear can clear this up for me.

Who/what is it that prohibits so many tribal casinos from having roulette and craps? I first thought that none of them had those games. Then I played craps at Avi, and someone said they could have craps there because it was allowed in non-tribal casinos in the state. Then I played craps at both Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun, and I don't know of any non-tribal casinos in CT. Are there just a large number of states that independently sign contracts with the tribes allowing other games but banning those two, or is there some coordinated policy that isn't quite universal?

Quote: EvenBob

OK has more Indian casinos than any other state,
but I believe none of them offer craps or roulette.

Hi Bob,

I am glad you mentioned that. There is a very large casino near Shawnee, OK called Firelake Grand that has a card-based variant of craps and roulette. The (outdated) gambling laws in OK prohibit the use of dice or roulette balls, so the casino devised a way around the law.

For the craps, they use a standard craps table but instead of the player throwing dice, they draw cards which have a picture of one of the 6 sides of a dice on it. I think it's rather pitiful and takes away from the magic of craps, but is not a bad way to improvise.

For roulette, they use a modified roulette wheel which has holders for cards with the numerical value on them (we'll assume 38 cards for a 00 wheel). The players place the bets on the standard roulette table, and the dealer spins the "wheel" until the picker stops at a position and the card is pulled.

I really wish I could find some way to take a video or picture of it because I've never seen anything like it.

Quote: Doc

This raises a point that I have never understood. Perhaps someone hear can clear this up for me.

Who/what is it that prohibits so many tribal casinos from having roulette and craps? I first thought that none of them had those games. Then I played craps at Avi, and someone said they could have craps there because it was allowed in non-tribal casinos in the state. Then I played craps at both Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun, and I don't know of any non-tribal casinos in CT. Are there just a large number of states that independently sign contracts with the tribes allowing other games but banning those two, or is there some coordinated policy that isn't quite universal?

Hi Doc,

Please see the following article...


"The joke is actually funnier than you think; while traditional dice games like craps are common in casinos around the world, the California Penal Code prohibits any casino game from being determined exclusively by dice or balls."

http://articles.sfgate.com/2011-06-16/entertainment/29664177_1_three-cards-dice-craps


The same law exists in OK and I'm sure in many other states.

Quote: desertair

The players place the bets on the standard roulette table, and the dealer spins the "wheel" until the picker stops at a position and the card is pulled.I really wish I could find some way to take a video or picture of it because I've never seen anything like it.

OMG, that sounds like something from Vegas Vacation
when Chevy Chase goes to that 'alternative' casino. How
do people play it without laughing..

Quote: desertair

Unlike the NGCB in NV, OK gives each tribe the power to regulate itself...

Really? As in OK has no presense whatsoever in the casino and has no part in overseeing the operation? That is curious, indeed. We (Seneca) are self-regulating, but we have a State counterpart, basically folks with identical job descriptions but with different employers (Tribe vs State).

I'm not a wiz at gaming laws, but if some, any or all of them are at a Federal level, the tribe would still have to follow them (same as Fed tax, ATF laws, etc). "Sovereignty" only excludes them from State law. So, if slot holds and VP paytables are Federally regulated, then tribal games should be no different than any other casino's (other than personal decisions of exactly where in the scale to place them).

"Everything Vegas" lol that's rich. If "everything" to you means 3:2, Roulette, Craps, etc, then us too. If "everything" means nightlife, the culture, the XXX girls, the lights, the cartoonish-acid-trippy vibe that is Vegas, then no. Marketing's funny ain't it? ;)

I believe OK has more tribes because thats where the
gov't sent the Indians in the 1800's.

"The Trail of Tears is a name given to the relocation and movement of Native American nations from southeastern parts of the United States following the Indian Removal Act of 1830. The removal included many members of the Cherokee, Muscogee (Creek), Seminole, and Choctaw nations, among others in the United States, from their homelands to Indian Territory (eastern sections of the present-day state of Oklahoma)."

Quote: desertair

Please see the following article... "... the California Penal Code prohibits any casino game from being determined exclusively by dice or balls."

Thanks for the link. The article claims that craps and roulette are prohibited because they are games of chance while cards are permitted because they are games of skill.

I have played several variants of card craps. Does anyone think that card craps is a game of skill? If so, how? (And I don't mean that variant where counting is possible.)

For that matter, do gaming authorities consider baccarat to be a game of skill? (I know some players do, but I'm talking about people who are supposed to be rational.)

Quote: Doc

Thanks for the link. The article claims that craps and roulette are prohibited because they are games of chance while cards are permitted because they are games of skill.

I have played several variants of card craps. Does anyone think that card craps is a game of skill? If so, how? (And I don't mean that variant where counting is possible.)

For that matter, do gaming authorities consider baccarat to be a game of skill? (I know some players do, but I'm talking about people who are supposed to be rational.)

This premise always makes me laugh. BJ is a game of skill? What skill? Reading? If they didn't allow strategy cards, maybe, but...

Three Card Poker - stay in with Q/6/4 or better. Is it a skill to remember this?

This isn't a slight on the players of these games, just an observation of legal ridiculousness. Craps is chance but Bac is skill....how?

Silliness, I tell ya.

Quote: Face

Really? As in OK has no presense whatsoever in the casino and has no part in overseeing the operation? That is curious, indeed. We (Seneca) are self-regulating, but we have a State counterpart, basically folks with identical job descriptions but with different employers (Tribe vs State).

I'm not a wiz at gaming laws, but if some, any or all of them are at a Federal level, the tribe would still have to follow them (same as Fed tax, ATF laws, etc). "Sovereignty" only excludes them from State law. So, if slot holds and VP paytables are Federally regulated, then tribal games should be no different than any other casino's (other than personal decisions of exactly where in the scale to place them).

"Everything Vegas" lol that's rich. If "everything" to you means 3:2, Roulette, Craps, etc, then us too. If "everything" means nightlife, the culture, the XXX girls, the lights, the cartoonish-acid-trippy vibe that is Vegas, then no. Marketing's funny ain't it? ;)

Slot holds and VP pay tables are not Federally regulated. The Tribal compacts with the States (and they vary, so you need to read the compacts in your State) generally have wording that is similar to this: "No class III games of chance, gaming equipment or supplies may be purchased, leased, or otherwise acquired by the Tribe unless the class III equipment or supplies meet the technical equipment standards of either the State of Nevada or the State of New Jersey." The minimum payback in Nevada is 75%, Mississippi is 80% and in New Jersey, it's 83%. So, your State is probably at least 75% but the Tribal casinos are not obligated to release their actual figures.

Quote: Doc

For that matter, do gaming authorities consider baccarat to be a game of skill?

As far as I know, the only game of skill casinos
offer is poker. Even if BJ was a game of skill, they
would never admit it.

Quote: EvenBob

OMG, that sounds like something from Vegas Vacation
when Chevy Chase goes to that 'alternative' casino. How
do people play it without laughing..

WTF kind of a game is that? Its like clown school or something.

Ken

Quote: Face

If slot holds and VP paytables are Federally regulated, then tribal games should be no different than any other casino's (other than personal decisions of exactly where in the scale to place them.

Without independent outside auditing, the whole Indian casino thing is a farce. And if those reports have to submitted to government authorities, they would be covered under FOIA requests.

Quote: EvenBob

As far as I know, the only game of skill casinos
offer is poker. Even if BJ was a game of skill, they
would never admit it.

I think lots of people consider sports wagering to have a significant element of skill. BJ perhaps becomes a skill game for a counter. I suppose several games can be considered "skill" games to the extent that some strategies are provably better than others provided you are "skillful" enough to follow them, such as basic blackjack strategy. With those exceptions, and perhaps a couple more, I agree with you.

I consider my casino gaming to be entertainment through games of chance. My preferred game is craps, and even though I "set" the dice, I have no delusions about that being a skill issue. The only "skill" I make use of is trying not to make too many of the really stupid bets. And while you and I may disagree, I don't think roulette offers any opportunity for a "skillful" player, other than avoiding really stupid combinations of bets.

Thus, I go along with the idea that craps and roulette are games of chance, but I don't see how the many other games are permitted in (California) tribal casinos if the rationale is that games of chance are to be prohibited. Card craps???? Baccarat???? Obviously games of chance, so far as I can see.

Quote: Doc

I think lots of people consider sports wagering to have a significant element of skill. BJ perhaps becomes a skill game for a counter.

Sports wagering isn't a game. And counting is cheating according to the
casino, just ask Paigowdan.

Quote: Face

Really? As in OK has no presense whatsoever in the casino and has no part in overseeing the operation? That is curious, indeed. We (Seneca) are self-regulating, but we have a State counterpart, basically folks with identical job descriptions but with different employers (Tribe vs State).

I've had a difficult time figuring out how it works in OK. The information on the web is pretty slim and it mostly covers the licensing and "general" regulation of tribal casinos.. nothing useful like the NGCB would have like yearly/monthly slot payback percentages for each casino, etc..

I did find this interesting tidbit which, to me, basically means the OK gov is giving it up to the tribes:

"Who regulates Indian Gaming?

Indian tribes are the primary regulators of Class II gaming. Regulation of Class III gaming may be addressed in Tribal-State compacts and varies by state with tribes remaining the primary regulator in most states. In Oklahoma, the tribes are the primary regulators of both Class II and Class III gaming. Both Class II and Class III gaming are subject to the provisions of the IGRA and oversight by the NIGC. "

The Oklahoma Office of State Finance does have a compliance unit that has the authority to ensure that the tribal casinos are operating according to the compacts, but I still don't think this means anything for the players/customers.

Also, this is another interesting point. I guess I had assumed the tribes had to be on reservations, but not necessarily so:

"Where can Indian gaming be conducted?

Under the federal law gambling can be conducted on "Indian land." Federal law defines "Indian land" as land that is either:
part of a federally recognized Indian reservation, or
off a reservation but held in trust for an Indian tribe by the federal government, or under the jurisdiction of an Indian governing body.
As this definition points out, it is not necessary for land to be actually part of a reservation for gambling to be conducted on it. In theory, an Indian tribe could buy land anywhere in a state and operate a casino on it, by having it declared Indian trust land by an Act of Congress, a court decision or settlement or through an application through the U.S. Department of the Interior."


Link: http://ok.gov/OSF/faqs.html#q1380


I guess the bottom line is I'll keep saving my money in a jar until I go to Vegas where at least I know there is SOME level of fairness in regulation. Also, the Indian casinos here might as well be cigarette hot boxes due to the lack of ventilation and the sheer number of smokers. It always surprises me how I can gamble at the Wynn, MGM or Caesars for a few hours and not leave smelling like stale tobacco. The funny thing is a lot of the OK Indian casinos have gaming floors equivalent or even larger than the ones in Vegas (but they can't invest in proper air circulation systems).

Riverwind = 219,000 Sq Ft
WinStar World Casino = 519,000 Sq Ft (The place is HUGE. They have in the neighborhood of 7,000+ slot machines)
Choctaw Casino Resort = 110,000 Sq Ft

After reading your research, it kind of sounds similar (although not enough info is provided to declare it "the same") in respect to regulations. The tribe is the primary regulation, but follow guidlines in IGRA, NIGC and the State/Nation Compact, all of which I assume (as in my case) are on the up-and-up. If they are similar to my place (I'm lost on finding a reason that they aren't) then what it means to players is you shouldn't worry about slots being set to 55% returns, "rigged shufflers" or any other nonsense. Many (probably a majority) of the employees are non native and have no affiliation with the Nation who owns the joint. I would think if there were hijinks, whistleblowers would abound.

And your "Indian Land" fact is true. Yes, casinos need not be on the reservation. The Seneca's Buffalo Creek and Niagara Falls facilities are examples. They are in the middle of the respective cities; only the few acres of property on which it sits are considered "Indian Land", which was obtained through a court process and agreement between Nation and State as you described. So not "in theory" as you stated, but "actually and recently happens". They're currently looking into doing it again in the Catskills area. I wish I was more informed on the actual process of a land claim, but alas...no. Too legal for me to comprehend.

And I dunno what is up with the smoke deal. At The M, I was fine and dandy. The fig oil scent was a little strong, but it felt like the underlying air was fresh. Same with the Hard Rock. At my own place, after walking the floor for 15 minutes, my eyes burned right to hell. And I'm a pack-a-day smoker! I don't get it. If I went to casinos for pleasure instead of work, I'd probably still frequent my local joint simply because of the proximity to home, but would also prefer Vegas if I had the choice (See: funds). If you were upset that you felt you couldn't game legit, I might try to soothe your worries more about tribal gaming. But since you're just going to Vegas instead, I'll only offer a good luck! ;)

I've been trying to find a pic of the roulette
game they play. Its called Cherokee Bonus
Roulette and it complies with OK law because
the player doesn't bet against the house. I
don't know what they mean. Is it set up like
poker, where you win the other players
money?

I enjoy gambling in the tribal casinos nearby in Oregon, and give them most of my action.

We visit Las Vegas maybe once a year; I gamble about twice a month at tribal joints, usually Chinook Winds and Spirit Mountain.

They are both"Las Vegas-like."

In some ways they are better.

For example, both offer free self-serve soft drinks and coffee: Las Vegas doesn't.

Chinook Winds is sited on a beach on the Pacific ocean: beats the Mojave desert.

Craps is five times odds, usually five dollar minimum.

No baccarat.

Very good comps.

Quote: Doc

For that matter, do gaming authorities consider baccarat to be a game of skill? (I know some players do, but I'm talking about people who are supposed to be rational.)

A couple things to chime in on this point...

First, regarding "games of skill," this is how Arkansas got casino gaming in the racetracks. The slot machines are they "Lock and roll" type where you get to hold whichever reels you want. Their gaming board defines games of skill as the player being able to make a decision at some point during the game. On TCP, you decide whether to play or not. VP you choose which cards you want to keep. However, they don't have craps or roulette of any type (cards or actual) so this wouldn't apply to the reservations.

Second, I believe OK considers table games to be player-banked games via a commission paid before every hand. It's usually $.25 for every $25 wagered, with a max of $1. Some casinos charge the commission directly to the player, offsetting this by offering ridiculously amazing rules on BJ. I saw a Double Deck game, 3:2, S17, RSA, no Surrender, 7-card charlie, suited BJ pays 2:1, 6-7-8 spades gets paid 3:1. Of course, none of those rules overcome the commission. Some casinos "pay the commission" like Downstream. To compete, they still have to have decent BJ games available, but not quite as nice or generous. TCP uses the 4-1 payout.

Skillful players head to the slots.

I live in central Texas and visit OKC on a regular basis. All 3 of my kids now live in that area following the divorce.

Indian casinos (IMHO) come in 3 flavors: Vegas style, Rip off odds, crooked.

"Vegas style" Indian casinos have the look and appearance of a Las Vegas casino. They offer fair games, usually managed by a hired outside, professional company. For instance, I've seen the Vegas style at Rincon in California, Buffalo Thunder in Santa Fe, and Coushatta in Louisiana. I know Harrahs manages Rincon. I forgot who it is that runs the other two. But they are run no different than any place on the strip; except they are on a reservation miles from anything else. Sometimes they can't offer certain games because of the agreements with the states they are in. For instance, Rincon can't offer roulette, and must use a bizarre set of rules on the craps table. I was told that roulette is illegal in all forms in California because it's in the state's constitution to be strictly forbidden. I think I remember seeing regular roulette and craps at Buffalo Thunder and Coushatta.

"Rip-off-odds" Indian casinos are the entire state of Oklahoma. All table games require a "self funding" tax on each bet. For instance, a $5 BJ table requires a 25 cent payment before each hand. As the bet size goes up, so does the "self funding" tax. The percentage is so high that it's impossible to win in the long run in any table game in a Oklahoma casino. You can win in short sessions (variance), but long sessions will not be winnable. I am told that the Indian nations (we call them tribes) in Oklahoma have a set of rules and are a loose confederation. A committee from various Indian nations can review your local Indian casino, but they can't force you to follow their ruling. The only real enforcement is "non-compliance" negative publicity. The Indian casinos of Oklahoma are making their respective tribes a huge profit, so they don't want negative publicity. You mention Windriver. Windriver in Norman (1/2 hour south of OKC) has a respectable poker room. Rather high $5 rake, but it's a respectable game. The one location I constantly shocked at is Winstar (exit 1 in OK), as close to Dallas as you can get in OK. Constant construction and expansion. They are quickly becoming one of the biggest and busiest casinos in the entire USA. Oh, one other thing about Oklahoma casinos. Very bad air quality; smoke handling is a joke. Winstar (that huge place) has one of the worst air quality controls of any casino I've been in.

"Stay away" Indian casinos are operating illegally. Eagle Pass on the Texas border with Mexico is a good example. They don't even pretend to fair or legal. Save your wallet (and your life). These types of places are managed by the local Indians; to scalp the white man. Stay away.

MHO after 15 years (1992 to 2006 inclusive) at the two Casinos in CT... It is a Sovereign Nation with a US Senate Treaty enforced. Some State gov't interactions are necessary, and some compromises exist, like serving alcohol, employee relations, and taxation, ect. But understand that nowhere are they implicitly obligated to follow Nevada Gaming Law (NGL) as a standard, "unless" that has been negotiated as a point for the existence of such casino. And, yes, there is a Tribal Authority in place to deal with rowdy behavior, cheating, and trespass.

An example might be that a Video Poker Machine might display a payout that appears to be 99%, yet the machine is programmed to "drop" 1 coin in 100. It could be such that you are being paid 99% of 99% or a 98.01% payout. Ditto for slots. Table gaming enforcement at Blackjack might not have to be the same as if you are in any State of the Union... after all, you ARE in a "Foreign Country", and in a private club, with particular rules, and "Human Rights". Quite literally "...This isn't Kansas anymore". /MHO

N&B

deleted

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

i can say that all ap's and even those who just get lucky and win a few times, be very careful in any michigan tribal casinos. 2 ap's were arrested and convicted of "cheating" by hole carding a bj game which is perfectly legal in any commercial casino.

You're kidding! Convicted? Can you tell us more? Was this state court or Indian court?

I agree that you have to be careful in some tribal casinos. They don't all play by the rules.

deleted

From what a Cherokee friend of mine told me a few years ago every 2 years the Tribal Council in Cherokee renegotiates their contract with Harrahs. That year (2001) they got a $25MM per year 2 year deal. So you know back then they had to make a $25MM a year profit to break even.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

i can say that all ap's and even those who just get lucky and win a few times, be very careful in any michigan tribal casinos. 2 ap's were arrested and convicted of "cheating" by hole carding a bj game which is perfectly legal in any commercial casino.

Which casino did this happen in? I've not heard it and work in a Tribal casino in Michigan.

Mark

I have some secondhand knowledge of the situation so I will reveal the casino unless ibeatyouraces asks me to take it down.

It was at Four Winds casino in New Buffalo, Michigan.

Quote: teddys

It was at Four Winds casino in New Buffalo, Michigan.

You have a link or something? I go to FW all the
time and did not hear this. What did they do to
him?

How can hole carders be convicted of cheating?

Maybe if they used a mirror or a confederate not at the table, but if it is just two sharp-eyed players, no way Jose!

BTW: I could google up no info on this matter, which seems odd.

Quote: MrV

BTW: I could google up no info on this matter, which seems odd.

I spent 10min and got zip. Lets have some sources, guys,
otherwise this doesn't wash.

Perhaps this is in the same vein as "I heard they got fined for having ther payback percentage too low but they make so much money they don't change it and just pay the fines". I've heard this same phrase uttered by numerous people about both tribal and commercial gaming.

Is anyone familiar with tribal law? It would be helpful if patrons knew their rights before getting in trouble.

Quote: EvenBob

I spent 10min and got zip. Lets have some sources, guys,
otherwise this doesn't wash.

On American Casino Guide, players generally criticize them pretty badly. acg

Tribes? Some tribes were concocted by lawyers so as to build casinos. Other tribes were moribund clans until the money started flowing.

Disclosure in Indian casinos is a joke. If they say a machine malfunctioned that is what happened. In a Vegas casino, if you call the Gaming Commission a man with a gun shows up to find out what really happened. He doesn't work for the casino. In an Indian casino, that man with a gun works for the Tribe.

You better believe its entertainment induced by distance from a "real" casino.

Quote: FleaStiff

Tribes? Some tribes were concocted by lawyers so as to build casinos. Other tribes were moribund clans until the money started flowing.

Disclosure in Indian casinos is a joke. If they say a machine malfunctioned that is what happened. In a Vegas casino, if you call the Gaming Commission a man with a gun shows up to find out what really happened. He doesn't work for the casino. In an Indian casino, that man with a gun works for the Tribe.

You better believe its entertainment induced by distance from a "real" casino.

Wow. I suppose that:
All Indians are drunks,
All African Americans are good at basketball,
All Jewish people are greedy,
All Asians are good at math,
All people from the South are rednecks,
All Middle Easterners are terrorists,
All Irish are drunks,
All Latinos are gang members?

As long as we're throwing BS out there I might as well join in.

Mark

Quote: 1BB

Is anyone familiar with tribal law? It would be helpful if patrons knew their rights before getting in trouble.

Here is the tribal compact between the tribe and the state:

compact

The above is not terribly helpful, except it makes quite clear that any gaming disputes on the Rez fall under the jurisdiction of tribal law, not state law.

More on point, see:

link

I checked the link to the four published opinions of the tribal court, and found no reference to the case being discussed.

Of course, the tribe is not required to publish an opinion, but for whatever reason it is not published.

I looked at their gaming ordinance (click on the link): check about pages 58-62 or so.

Tribes are literally sovereign entities, which they invariably milk for whatever advantage they can get.

deleted

deleted

Radio show.

Quote: MrV

Tribes are literally sovereign entities, which they invariably milk for whatever advantage they can get.

That's what dominating them for 400+ years will produce.

Relatedly, does anyone know of any Indian casino being audited by a CPA and releasing the audit>

Quote: SanchoPanza

Relatedly, does anyone know of any Indian casino being audited by a CPA and releasing the audit>

All Tribal Gaming operations are audited by a an independent firm of certified public accountants annually. This is a requirement of the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act and enforced by the National Indian Gamin Commission.

Mark

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

the whole incident was kept hush hush until a ruling was made. word didnt come out until attorney Bob N. talked about it on a radio gaming talk show. you will not find any info about this on the net. go to beyondcounting.com to hear it.

Here's why I think this is NOT true.
I listened to the radio show and there was no information given to verify any of this. Somebody in some Michigan Tribal casino was arrested and prosecuted for participating in hole carding a 21 game.

Here's the only post on beyondcounting that I could find that talked about it. http://www.beyondcounting.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=479&highlight=four+winds Again, there is no information to verify any of it.

Tribes in Michigan (and probably all U.S. Tribes) do not have the ability to criminally prosecute non-ndians. Granted it could have been an Indian, but with the complete lack of any factual information I wouldn't know. Tribes can charge non-Indian people civilly in Tribal courts and seek monetary judgments.

I may seem like I'm defensive about Tribal gaming but that's not the case. I just think that people should have factual information, not here say. If I'm wrong about this issue I will loudly admit it in both caps and 72pt type, but someone will have to prove it to me.

I'm not saying Tribal gaming operations don't do stupid things, case in point. http://casinogambling.about.com/library/weekly/aa120202.htm . This isn't unique to Tribal gaming though, I'm sure you can cite as many unreasonable things done by commercial casinos.

Mark
who works in Michigan Tribal Gaming

Quote: marksolberg

Tribes in Michigan (and probably all U.S. Tribes) do not have the ability to criminally prosecute non-ndians. Granted it could have been an Indian, but with the complete lack of any factual information I wouldn't know. Tribes can charge non-Indian people civilly in Tribal courts and seek monetary judgments.

What does this mean in MI, Mark?

I mean, I imagine you have on-site police like us in NY (State or County) If someone commits a CRIME, as in assault or theft, they are charged and prosecuted by the State. There are times (VERY few and far between) when Peacemakers (Tribal Court) make a judgement against a non-Native, but in the few cases I am aware of it was simply barring them from entering Reservation land (which, as far as I've seen, is posturing with no enforcement or repercussions)

So what happens if a person commits a "gaming crime" on Tribal land in a state with no gaming laws? What if a person records a shuffle, swaps in loaded dice, palms off a card in a game? Since this hole-carding story hasn't yet been proven 100% factual, I just thought I'd ask if anyone knew or has heard of any of such incidents.

This is a very interesting point / question.

Just how far does the Tribal Court's authority reach?

If a person commits some crime on tribal land, whether it's stealing, rape, murder, whatever, who prosecutes? If found guilty, how is the offender punished?

Does it matter if the offender and/or victim are tribe members?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

This is a very interesting point / question.

Just how far does the Tribal Court's authority reach?

If a person commits some crime on tribal land, whether it's stealing, rape, murder, whatever, who prosecutes? If found guilty, how is the offender punished?

Does it matter if the offender and/or victim are tribe members?

Peacemakers is civil. I'm pretty ignorant on the subject, but from my 30yrs of living here they mostly handle land disputes, tribal business disagreements, family quarrels, you know, tribal issues contained within tribal boundaries. They do not extend past their borders with the exception of tribal members who live off the Rez, or in those meaningless "trespass" examples (My cousin (white) was forbidden to enter the Rez due to street racing. He still enters the rez without repercussion)

Most things (again, only speaking for NY) are handled by State and County police. Drug stings, DUI arrests, murder/rape investigations, theft (all kinds), things you go to jail for, are handled by the State/County. Even speeding, while you may be caught and pulled over by the Nation Marshals, are handled by State/County (Marshals hold you until cops arrive). All of these are handled by State resources and punished without consideration of where it happened or what blood flows through your veins.

Specifically, my question was what about things for which there IS no law? All of the above examples are clearly illegal in NY, so it makes sense that NYS would carry out the charging and convicting. But if I palm in an Ace or two bought at the gift shop, what would/could happen to me? Pretty sure that's jail time in LV, but they have a State Law stating such. If there is no law.....?

deleted

Quote: marksolberg

Tribes in Michigan (and probably all U.S. Tribes) do not have the ability to criminally prosecute non-ndians.

Exactly. I think the whole thing was made up by Four Winds
to scare hole carders. There is no hard evidence anywhere
that this happened, just here-say, which is worthless.