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billionaireben
billionaireben
Joined: Jun 29, 2011
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July 14th, 2016 at 4:27:35 PM permalink
That's good to know, since that one guy in Ocean's 13 did that (I know it's just a movie.) Could a multi deck shuffler be sequenced. If I took a slug of tens 2 decks in an 8 deck stack, would it be randomly scattered in the stack or would there be some clumps?
billionaireben
billionaireben
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July 14th, 2016 at 4:31:17 PM permalink
Some of them only charge the ante if you don't use a players card. If it's an "ante" you get it back if you win, is that the case (I haven't been there.) Still too high, they'd be better off giving a nice looking game that has a high edge like Mississippi stud. I'd like to see a draw version of MS, that would be a good game. :)
BeerKegBelly
BeerKegBelly
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July 14th, 2016 at 5:06:09 PM permalink
I don't see how a multi-deck shuffler could be sequenced with any degree of certainty, given the improbability of predicting each player's decisions etc. But I suppose it would be easier if you knew in advance that every player was using a set strategy -- for example, that all the players knew and rigidly followed the standard strategy for the given game. That might make it predictable but in my experience, the average player doesn't know the strategy that well and certainly isn't robotic in following it!

As for the second part, about stacking the shoe with a pile of 10s, I don't know for sure. But my guess is that they would be randomly scattered -- but that random scattering can still result in clumps. In fact, that happens now, in fair games that use multiple decks and are randomly shuffled: you'll still get clumping. After all, there are only 13 different cards, so clumping is inevitable, especially for 10s, which make up 30.8% of a deck.
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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July 14th, 2016 at 5:08:21 PM permalink
BKB,

Welcome to the forum! Great first posts, thanks.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
BeerKegBelly
BeerKegBelly
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July 14th, 2016 at 5:18:33 PM permalink
Cheers!
andysif
andysif
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July 14th, 2016 at 7:00:19 PM permalink
Quote: BeerKegBelly

....
The shoe always has the next card ready to be dealt. Imagine Steve is at third base. Steve can see the next card face down in the shoe, waiting. Whether he takes it or not, the value of that card is already determined. If Steve stands, it will go to the dealer. If Steve hits or splits, it will be dealt to him. As soon as it is removed from the shoe, the next card pops into place, ready to be dealt. Steve may or may not take that card as well, but before he gets to make that call, the value of that card is already locked in. The value of each card is determined before Steve has to decide whether to take that card or not.

....



what you described is a "cold deck". If you are playing poker, then you need a cold deck to bait your victim. exactly what card to whom at what time.

but if you are playing blackjack, that kind of precision is really not necessary. all you have to do is to withhold a few high cards and you gain an edge.

but of course, i am not saying the casino WILL do that, i am just saying they COULD.
rsactuary
rsactuary
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July 14th, 2016 at 7:01:48 PM permalink
Quote: billionaireben

Some of them only charge the ante if you don't use a players card. If it's an "ante" you get it back if you win, is that the case (I haven't been there.) Still too high, they'd be better off giving a nice looking game that has a high edge like Mississippi stud. I'd like to see a draw version of MS, that would be a good game. :)



At WinStar you are charged the ante on each hand, and you never get it back. And you'll still see people playing $5 games. :smh:
gordonm888
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gordonm888
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July 14th, 2016 at 9:49:58 PM permalink
Quote: Kelmo

Is it possilbe to rig a shuffler? It would be tough, as most gaming regulators require independant certification and testing of harware and software (such as GLI - Gaming Labrotories Internation) before approving them for use. In any case, the casino probably lack the engineering/software development expertise to rig a shuffler.



Actually, this is not true for Indian Casinos. The Federal regulations on Indian Casinos are mute on automated shufflers and no where require independent lab certification of shufflers - because they were written before shufflers came into wide usage and were never modified. I checked the specific Cherokee tribal regulations on North Carolina Cherokee casinos and they exactly mirror the federal regulations - and there are no requirements for independent lab testing on automated shufflers. Independent lab testing may be required in Nevada, NJ and California but it is an absolute falsehood that automated shufflers provided to Indian casinos must undergo outside certification in North Carolina.

And any number of independent contractors could write the software for rigging a shuffler. But it probably would not be necessary, since it must certainly exist.

Quote:

Most casinos wouldn't risk their license and negative publicity for a few percentage points on blackjack. The real money is made in the machines in most jurisdictions; tables are an afterthought. I see some incidents cited, but they are generally crooked staff taking advantage of poor operational controls.

In Oklahoma, there would be no reason that the house would want to cheat a player; quite the opposite in fact. That jurisdiction is a "Player Banked" jurisdiction, which means that all the winning (except for a small % of operating cost) must be returned to the players in some form of prize. That is why they collect a commission on each hand (and with that, they make more money off players than they could by scamming them). cheating a player only to give his winnings to another player sound logical???



This might be true in Oklahoma - in player -banked games. But the argument "Most casinos wouldn't risk their license ..." has been argued before in this forum and I don't believe it. At Indian casinos there is 0.000% chance of a casino losing their license in a state like NC because the tribal gaming authority is a fiction and everyone is making too much money. Saying that casinos have no incentive to cheat their customers is like saying that men have no incentive to cheat on their wives.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Rel8te
Rel8te
Joined: Aug 8, 2016
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August 10th, 2016 at 4:55:13 PM permalink
No the shuffle machines cannot be rigged in terms of determining the outcomes. There would be too many variables and if one person decided to play differently than expected, it would throw the entire rig off.

With that being said, I used to work as a dealer for an Indian casino where when we opened and closed the table, the QUANTITY of the cards was checked, but not the actual cards. Could the casino get away with swapping an ace for a five? Probably, yes, because we were strictly not allowed (including the pit boss and floor supervisors) to check the cards themselves to determine if the deck was composed fairly.

The casino has every reason to keep their game as legitimate as possible seeing as how they are already making hand over fist. They don't need nor do they have any reason to rig their games.

On a personal note however, there were many times were my supervisor explained to me that the shuffle machine was "broken" when sometimes it would show that there was a missing card, for example I can clearly remember an instance where the shuffle machine showed that there was a Jack of diamonds missing from the shoe and when I mentioned this to my supervisor he said that it was just a broken machine.

Even with this information I still don't think casinos, especially poorly regulated ones like the Indian casino I worked for, rig their machines in terms of removing and adding cards that add to their advantage because there would be no reason to as that small advantage would jeopardize a multi-billion dollar company, and I've yet to see real evidence.
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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August 10th, 2016 at 9:10:06 PM permalink
Hi, Rel8te, and welcome to the forum. I really appreciate your taking the time to share your experience in such detail. Feel free to add a dealer's perspective to other threads here.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

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