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urbflorams
urbflorams
Joined: Oct 4, 2012
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August 2nd, 2015 at 8:59:51 PM permalink
Quote: 3102yuma

I have made my last trip to Winstar Casino in Thackerville in Oklahoma. I have played blackjack for 30 years all over the country, but never at the Indian Casinos. I have won and lost, and admit to being somewhat of a sore loser. I have come to the conclusion you simply cannot win there. When I sit at a table, eventually everybody ends up disgusted from losing over and over and leave. It seems like know one wins. I wander if there are any former pit bosses from Vegas that work there and through their years of experience can see that something is just not right. It is uncanny how many blackjacks, aces up in a row that the dealers get. They crack me up when they put on what seems to be an act that they are so suprised by all their blackjacks, standing 20's, and hitting and not busting. I wish I had kept statistics on the percentage of hands I win. What I am sure of is that I can play 75-150 hands and maybe win three hands in a row during that stretch of playing. I can play 50 hands and never see a two-card 20 until the dealer has the samething. It does not matter if I am playing at a table with six decks or tables where they re-shuffle once they get through about two decks.

I cannnot go there and even play a leisurely game at the $5.00 minimum table. We just seem to lose and lose and lose. I want to repeat that I am a very experienced player, aware of bad streaks and the possibility of losing 10,15 or more hands in a row. But this is rediculous. I wrote the gaming commission, but I am already aware of the setup in Oklahoma and know it will fall upon deaf ears.

Could the machines be set up where once 'card-rich' hands that lean towards the house began to be shuffled into the machines in away that really increase the houses chance of winning. I play almost 99% by the mathmatics of the game.

i truly believe that one day it will be proven that somehow those shuffling machines are rigged.

Not one more .50 cent ante from me. I am done.



Try this
On the CSM's
Stand back and watch the game for a time and do the high - low count. If your count continues to go up ether direction, something is wrong.
On the 6 deck game w/cut card at 1/3 just count the high cards including the aces. Each shoe should have on average 80. Let me know what you get. Or are you truly done. Lol!!!
vulnerable
vulnerable
Joined: Feb 4, 2014
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November 8th, 2015 at 10:38:59 AM permalink
Quote: Tomspur

I am most certainly not cunfusing the two, in fact I know both very, very well.
There was a case a few years back in Macau where a gentleman of South African decent (I believe he was a musician) managed to track how the cards would come out in a CSM (Continuous shuffling machine) by listening to the machines internal workings. He apparetnly practiced at home (he had one) for a while and managed to find out how the sequencing of cards went with that particular brand of CSM. He figured out that, due to a defect with the algorythms of the shuffle machine, the same two cards always preceeded the dealing of an ACE. He sat in first base and when he knew the first card dealt would be an ACE he would increase his bet. Obviously this gives him a substantial advantage over the game.
He was caught but he didn't cheat, he was simply a skilled AP.

SHFL has in the interim recalled those shufflers and fixed the faulty algorythm.

Also CSM's can be counted too.............

In closing I know what an ASM is as well, they save the casino on time and motion issues but i have never seen one shuffle in a way that would stack the deck either for the house or against the house, then again I have not yet investigated all brands and all types.

I do have a little bit of experience in this field you know :)


Just came across this post.
I think I met this guy in person some years ago. It was in Sands Macau. This post made my mind clear about what and how he was doing at that time.
He sat in the first base and made minimum bet every hand. Suddenly he bet maximum and then his first card was dealt an Ace.
There was one occasion that he was dealt a pair of Ace. After he split, he made a big bet on pairs. You know the result.
There was also a fat lady that possessed the same skill.
brettecantwell
brettecantwell
Joined: Jul 19, 2015
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November 8th, 2015 at 11:24:05 AM permalink
On the subject of rigged shufflers. Are there places that have the shuffler place the cut card in the machine??? Reason i ask is because my local places lets a player cut the decks after they pull it out of the shuffler, which i am assuming would destroy any sort of stacked deck (if it were to happen.) Seems to me that would bust the idea that the decks are rigged?
jjjoooggg
jjjoooggg
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November 8th, 2015 at 11:37:08 AM permalink
Quote: thlf

I worked at shufflemaster for several years. The shufflers are not nor can they be rigged. I had all of the internal passwords to set up the software, firmware, etc. and there is nothing there that can be altered to gain advantage either way. They are exactly as u see them.




I agree because the shuffler can't predict if someone leaves the table or deviats from basic strategy.
Born in Texas and lived in Texas my whole life.
kewlj
kewlj
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
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November 8th, 2015 at 11:55:07 AM permalink
Quote: jjjoooggg

I agree because the shuffler can't predict if someone leaves the table or deviats from basic strategy.



Don't need to. There are certain sequences of cards, including certain types of clumping that will increase the house advantage regardless how many players and/or whether players enter or lave the game. Where a player cuts the decks also will not effect this increased advantage.

As for the passwords that the guy that worked for shufflemaster spoke of, it is my understanding the casinos are also in possession of these 'codes'. I have a friend that works at one of the strip casinos's that tells me there are several sequences they can program the shuffler to do, including low to high by suit to determine that all cards are there. They just need to enter the code to access this feature. In the case of his particular casino, the codes aren't available to all in the pit, only the supervisor.

So the technology is there. It would be illegal in Las Vegas and most jurisdiction, but the technology is definitely there, which does make me a little uncomfortable and a little cautious against ASM's. In my own case, there is a store that I play regularly on boulder highway, (maxpen knows) where my lifetime results are suspiciously below expectation. I am not making any accusations, just something I am keeping an eye on.
jjjoooggg
jjjoooggg
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November 8th, 2015 at 1:54:17 PM permalink
Hmm Ok
Born in Texas and lived in Texas my whole life.
wtb
wtb
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January 3rd, 2016 at 2:44:52 AM permalink
I agree with wroberson on the possibility of CSM being rigged.
CSM can identify the number of each card and "eye in the sky" can read each palyer's card
and provide the dealer an appropriate card. It might be that the sysytem is capable of
adjusting the degree of dealers winning not to make the rigging completely obvious.
I went to macau recently and experienced dealer winning in almost an impossible rate.
Several yeras ago. I experiened a similar situation in Las Vegas, and mind you, the casino
was one of the most famous casinos at that time. The common thing in two cases was
they happened on Dec.31 and a lot of guests were playing.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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January 3rd, 2016 at 3:59:21 AM permalink
Quote: wtb

I agree with wroberson on the possibility of CSM being rigged.
CSM can identify the number of each card and "eye in the sky" can read each palyer's card
and provide the dealer an appropriate card. It might be that the sysytem is capable of
adjusting the degree of dealers winning not to make the rigging completely obvious.
I went to macau recently and experienced dealer winning in almost an impossible rate.
Several yeras ago. I experiened a similar situation in Las Vegas, and mind you, the casino
was one of the most famous casinos at that time. The common thing in two cases was
they happened on Dec.31 and a lot of guests were playing.

Well that is enough proof. Case closed. Whats the old saying? First time shame on them, 2nd time shame on you. It's beyond me why you guys go back for more. Hidden cameras are like $30. Next year go at the same bat time and the same bat place, STAND don't play and record "the evidence", once you have gathered enough evidence sue them or something. Everyone wants to talk about it, but no one wants to do anything about it. I'm certain it's all in your heads but anything is possible.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
punchfade
punchfade
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April 25th, 2016 at 6:17:09 PM permalink
I have been in the casino business for almost 40 years.
The shufflers used are not just shufflers, they are computers. At the end of the day we used to sort or count the cards to verify. Now we just hit "sort" and the machine spits them out, suited and in order.
Are they cheating you? I've seen posts that say the dealer gets pat 20's and BJ's more than any players. Hit a 19, split 10's, etc, and it will mess up the rest of the shoe. That's pretty much impossible because the shuffler doesn't know where the cards are going to land.
HOWEVER, Think about this and post a reply. If a shuffler grouped 10's, say 2-3 clumps of 8-10 cards, it would be probable that one of the groups of 10's would be cut off the shoe (behind the cut card) With everything else being equal, the shoe would start off at minus 10. I don't want to get into true counts and such but... Play that game for a couple hours and let me know how you do.
BeerKegBelly
BeerKegBelly
Joined: Jul 14, 2016
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July 14th, 2016 at 3:36:09 PM permalink
Hi, Aussie-based player here. I play mostly at The Star in Sydney, Jupiters on the Gold Coast, and occasionally at The Treasury in Brisbane. All three casinos use continuous shuffle machines, and as far as I can tell, they are all the same brand and type. These machines do not use a cut card. The discarded cards are simply poured back in at the end of each hand, or sometimes even during the hand. In practice, each hand is dealt from a completely fresh shoe containing 6 (or 8) decks of randomly shuffled cards.

Personally, I don't see how this can be rigged. It seems completely implausible. Yes, in theory, cameras could monitor the number of players and the choices each makes. (Some have talked about how such cameras could also monitor which cards each player gets. That's true -- but if the game is rigged to the extent that some claim, why would it would be necessary to monitor which cards each player has? If it is rigged to that extent, the machine would already know which cards each player gets -- isn't that assumption inherent in the whole idea of rigging such a game?)

The shoe always has the next card ready to be dealt. Imagine Steve is at third base. Steve can see the next card face down in the shoe, waiting. Whether he takes it or not, the value of that card is already determined. If Steve stands, it will go to the dealer. If Steve hits or splits, it will be dealt to him. As soon as it is removed from the shoe, the next card pops into place, ready to be dealt. Steve may or may not take that card as well, but before he gets to make that call, the value of that card is already locked in. The value of each card is determined before Steve has to decide whether to take that card or not.

Now follow the same logic back around the table. With a table of seven players, you might get one or two who sit on their original 2 cards. The others will take 1-3 cards each (sometimes more, if they've split). Around the table, there could easily be 10-15 (or so) decision points, where a player decides to take another card or not. At each decision point, there is always a "next card" waiting to be pulled from the machine, with a value that is already set. Who gets that card will depend on what decision the current player makes. Those decisions are not predictable. They are not only unpredictable from one player to the next, but based on my observations, the average player is also inconsistent in the decisions that he or she makes. In fact, for most players that I see (especially late at night, when the booze has been flowing!) those decisions are wildly unpredictable. In order to rig the game, the whole chain of those decisions would have to be predicted from the outset. The machine would have to predict every decision that every player would make, before any cards have been dealt, including for players who have just sat down (or have not been playing long enough to detect any consistency in their decision-making). It just doesn't seem plausible.

It is even less plausible in Australia and other places where the dealer does not take a hole card. This means the dealer's second card is not dealt until after all the players have finished their hands. So, in order to guarantee the dealer a strong hand, the machine would have to predict every decision by every player, and do so even before the initial cards are dealt (that is, before the first player has made any decision or even seen any cards).

For the casino, the bottom-line outcome, even in a rigged game, also depends on how much each player bets. Because, even if all these decisions could be predicted, no cheating casino would surely be dumb enough to ensure that every player loses on every hand. It would have to "allow" some players to win, while being careful to manipulate the outcome after taking into account the bets each player actually makes (so that it wins more than it would in a "straight" game). Between the dealer closing the bets and dealing the first card, there is very little time (only 2-3 seconds) in which to compute the predictions and, after taking the bets into account, figure out the optimum card arrangement -- and then rearrange the physical cards inside the shoe to match that arrangement.

It seems impossible, and it also seems unnecessary. The casinos make bucket-loads of money anyway. Also, for those casinos that offer them, you have to factor in side bets too. I don't know about the States, but all the Australian casinos also offer side bets, usually based on pair-matching. (Players, even those who don't have a "seat", can bet on the first two cards being a pair. You can make this bet for any player on the table. The Star in Sydney offers simple pairs, where any pair pays 11-1. Jupiters, on the Gold Coast, offers "perfect pairs", which pay a sliding scale depending on a simple pair, which is two cards of the same value but different color, then pairs with matching color but different suits, and finally a pair with matching suit, which pays 30-1.) The amount of money bet on these silly side-bets is unbelievable! And in a rigged game, you would think the cheating casino would want to factor this in too, which would require taking into account which hands have side bets and the value of those bets, further adding to the complications.

So my conclusion: not possible, not plausible and not necessary!

(Apologies for the long post!)

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