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AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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December 3rd, 2013 at 12:05:43 AM permalink
Quote: Tomspur

I am most certainly not cunfusing the two, in fact I know both very, very well.
There was a case a few years back in Macau where a gentleman of South African decent (I believe he was a musician) managed to track how the cards would come out in a CSM (Continuous shuffling machine) by listening to the machines internal workings. He apparetnly practiced at home (he had one) for a while and managed to find out how the sequencing of cards went with that particular brand of CSM. He figured out that, due to a defect with the algorythms of the shuffle machine, the same two cards always preceeded the dealing of an ACE. He sat in first base and when he knew the first card dealt would be an ACE he would increase his bet. Obviously this gives him a substantial advantage over the game.
He was caught but he didn't cheat, he was simply a skilled AP.

SHFL has in the interim recalled those shufflers and fixed the faulty algorythm.

Also CSM's can be counted too.............

In closing I know what an ASM is as well, they save the casino on time and motion issues but i have never seen one shuffle in a way that would stack the deck either for the house or against the house, then again I have not yet investigated all brands and all types.

I do have a little bit of experience in this field you know :)

Do you have a source of information on this story? The value on that would be worth over 50% on your big bets. Why did he only know the first card would be an ACE and not what all the cards would be?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Tomspur
Tomspur
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December 3rd, 2013 at 12:45:03 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Do you have a source of information on this story? The value on that would be worth over 50% on your big bets. Why did he only know the first card would be an ACE and not what all the cards would be?



I have it from the horses mouth so to speak (the Surveillance director involved in the apprehension).

The faulty algorythm only allowed for one particular card to be placed inside this pocket with these two other cards. When those "lead cards" were dealt and the next card was to be dealt, he knew only the value of that card.......

This is as far as I know. Because I'm in the industry I will most assuredly not divulge my source but as far as I can tell it is reputable.

As mentioned though the problem has been fixed and there are no more opportunities.....HOWEVER SHFL until this day deny that there was ever any problems.

Oh well, who really cares if there is no longer any opportunities right?
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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December 3rd, 2013 at 1:06:24 AM permalink
Quote: Tomspur

I have it from the horses mouth so to speak (the Surveillance director involved in the apprehension).



Oh well, who really cares if there is no longer any opportunities right?

Imagine if card counters said that when they added more decks and shoes. One should not give up so fast if the information is true. Not sure how this was fixed however things break or things are forgotten, I can think of a few scenarios, who knows.

I only asked because of people like Varmenti and his wild inaccurate stories. This sounds legit however.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
wroberson
wroberson
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December 3rd, 2013 at 1:07:58 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

But there is one thing you do that will thwart any "rigging" the machine may have. It has no clue how you'll play the hand.



You're right. Sometimes I'll hit an 11.

Every deck of cards is marked. The cards I have from OShea's have a crosshatch pattern like fabric. There are pits and flats loww spots and raised. It's the same stitching as bicycle cards. Even to the naked eye you can she this but under an eyepiece, every card is different. If you can control the ware pattern as cards are constantly being rubbed together and generating spots where the paper is worn. I was shocked when I was think in about this a few weeks ago. I was looking at the back of the top car and guessed it based on the light pattern that projected the number 7. It was the only card I got right, but I found it amusing.
Buffering...
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
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December 3rd, 2013 at 6:48:50 AM permalink
Quote: Tomspur

I'm sure most of you guys know this but the shuffle machines have been "tracked" successfully (even thought he algorythms have since been fixed) AND shuffling machines can be counted.

It is not a very high +EV game. There are two large advantages though.....

1) Nobody will question you if you spread 20 units or larger as "it is a shuffle machine, nobody can beat it"
2) The technique is not very well proven but it is incredibly easy.

I don't think you could make a living from it but you could enjoy a few hands and spread your bets without worrying about heat?

I'm not sure if this is reallyw aht this thread is about, I just thought I would give my penny's worth :)


Quote: AcesAndEights

You are confusing CSM with ASM.

CSM: Continuous Shuffling Machine. Continuously shuffles the cards as they are played, yielding a game that is impossible (or highly unprofitable) to count, since it's effectively a game with half a deck or so penetration (depending on how long the dealer lets the discards pile up).

ASM: Automatic Shuffling Machine. Automates the process of shuffling a full 6-deck shoe (or 4-deck, or 2-deck, or whatever). Resultant shuffled cards are placed into the shoe and dealt like normal, to a preset cut card. Just as countable as a traditional hand-shuffled game, but not shuffle-trackable for the "advanced" APs.

Most of this thread is about ASMs and the possibility that they are "stacking" the deck in favor of the house via any number of nefarious, and yet unproven schemes.


Quote: Tomspur

I am most certainly not cunfusing the two, in fact I know both very, very well.
There was a case a few years back in Macau where a gentleman of South African decent (I believe he was a musician) managed to track how the cards would come out in a CSM (Continuous shuffling machine) by listening to the machines internal workings. He apparetnly practiced at home (he had one) for a while and managed to find out how the sequencing of cards went with that particular brand of CSM. He figured out that, due to a defect with the algorythms of the shuffle machine, the same two cards always preceeded the dealing of an ACE. He sat in first base and when he knew the first card dealt would be an ACE he would increase his bet. Obviously this gives him a substantial advantage over the game.
He was caught but he didn't cheat, he was simply a skilled AP.

SHFL has in the interim recalled those shufflers and fixed the faulty algorythm.

Also CSM's can be counted too.............

In closing I know what an ASM is as well, they save the casino on time and motion issues but i have never seen one shuffle in a way that would stack the deck either for the house or against the house, then again I have not yet investigated all brands and all types.

I do have a little bit of experience in this field you know :)


I know you have experience in the casino industry and don't doubt you know the difference between the 2 machines. I was only stating that the thread was started about ASMs, and in your post I replied to (quoted first above), you were clearly talking about CSMs. That's all.

I understood what you meant, but wanted to make sure it was clear for everyone. Some gambling newbies confuse the two types of shuffling machines, and it's very important to know the difference, especially if you are an aspiring counter.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
Tomspur
Tomspur
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December 3rd, 2013 at 2:05:06 PM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

I know you have experience in the casino industry and don't doubt you know the difference between the 2 machines. I was only stating that the thread was started about ASMs, and in your post I replied to (quoted first above), you were clearly talking about CSMs. That's all.

I understood what you meant, but wanted to make sure it was clear for everyone. Some gambling newbies confuse the two types of shuffling machines, and it's very important to know the difference, especially if you are an aspiring counter.



I absolutely agree with you :)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
williamwizard
williamwizard
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April 8th, 2014 at 8:13:36 PM permalink
I have been playing Blackjack for a few years now. I live fairly close to Blackhawk, CO where there is a small casino town. I have also visited Las Vegas 3-4 times over this period. Here's what I have noticed consistently:

/// Playing two-deck or one-deck blackjack at home and two-deck or one-deck hand-shuffled blackjack at a casino (where available) is VERY different than playing at a table with 4-8 decks using shuffle machines. ///

*I have noticed that the probability strategy (which I use) does not work well with machine-shuffled tables or tables with more than 2 decks.
*There is a chance that the machines that shuffle the cards do not shuffle the decks randomly (at the very least) and with possibility of missing cards. Furthermore, unlike the hand-shuffled one and two deck tables, you do not get to see all the cards on the table (when they change decks). What would happen if the tens are clumped together in certain sequence? Probability goes out the window. Only people that will have a chance at an even game with the dealer would be someone with a big bank roll and consistent betting (i.e. betting $10 for all hands). And what if a few tens are missing from the decks? It gives the dealer a much higher chance of not busting and getting a much higher chance of getting 3-5 card 20's for the dealer.

If you are a BJ player using probability and betting strategy (betting high when you have a higher probability of getting better cards), avoid machine-shuffled tables at all cost. In my opinion, many of these casinos are going far and above to take your money and rip you off using whatever (legal and not so legal)strategy they can even with the dealer advantage they have (i.e. whether dealer wins or loses, anyone that busts on the table loses first and the dealer gets the money).

I have found a few casinos that work well for me, and I feel safe playing blackjack there because they have hand-shuffled blackjack tables. These two casinos here in CO are run by the same company called, Affinity Gaming. Whatever the case, I recommend a casino that have one, two, or three hand-shuffled tables (three would even better since they only use half of the cards. So two-deck would feel like playing with one and three would be like 1.5 decks).
Buzzard
Buzzard
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April 8th, 2014 at 8:20:24 PM permalink
Mardi Gras and Golden Gates are no better or worse for Bj than any other casino in Blackhawk. Except for Saratoga LOL
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
dabomboo7o
dabomboo7o
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July 16th, 2014 at 7:56:19 PM permalink
I want to make this easy for people..
The casinos could very easily rig a game to be very advantageous to the casino by clumping Aces together within the shoe... SO EASY right??
Aces are 1 or 11, so when someone has a 12, then get A, 2,A,A.. There is 3 aces removed from the 6 deck shoe, limiting the players ability get a blackjack.. then on top of that you deal 5 players (A,5) (A,2)(A8) ect ect. you burn through more aces.. this would probably give the casino about a 5% more advantage then normal..
The only thing the "automatic shuffler machine" would have to do is group aces together and therefore cutting the shoe should not matter since either way Aces will still be grouped together..
GWAE
GWAE
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July 16th, 2014 at 8:00:23 PM permalink
Quote: dabomboo7o

I want to make this easy for people..
The casinos could very easily rig a game to be very advantageous to the casino by clumping Aces together within the shoe... SO EASY right??
Aces are 1 or 11, so when someone has a 12, then get A, 2,A,A.. There is 3 aces removed from the 6 deck shoe, limiting the players ability get a blackjack.. then on top of that you deal 5 players (A,5) (A,2)(A8) ect ect. you burn through more aces.. this would probably give the casino about a 5% more advantage then normal..
The only thing the "automatic shuffler machine" would have to do is group aces together and therefore cutting the shoe should not matter since either way Aces will still be grouped together..



That would be completely noticeable if they did that.
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