Rincon San Diego Retaliates

Why offer anything at all if you can't play it anyway? Why not just offer $40x4 for the month and then evaluate based on that months play, instead of sending the extra month out and then reneging when they don't like the action?

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

That's what I'd do. Plenty of other "stores" as we call them.

What do they call you?

Youz guys are always talking way over my head, I admit.
But I get some free cash offers ( I assume that's even better than free play ).
It's multiple K per month. I ignore most of them. I don't have the time, too far away, etc.
I assume the casino knows all this, I assume they track all this, that they have some good computer programs in place, that it's mostly automated.
I also assume, in line with this thread, that if I go pick up 1K in free cash that I am expected to play that amount, several times over while there. To me that is common sense. I have wondered about staying in a comped room for 3 nights and only playing a few hours 1 night. I did that a couple months ago, unusual circumstance (anniversary weekend w/non-gambling wife). But I did come back a couple times over the next month, all by myself, and put in some serious hours at the table. I like the free cash offers. I like reading about other's experiences with the 'system' where they play.

In Alan's case I do not understand, as he seem's to not understand, the situation he finds himself in at this particular location. Please keep talking, I'm listening. 2F

Quote: AlanMendelson

It appears you missed what I wrote.

I put through $400,000 of coin-in during the month, and they gave me $80 of free play in a week. Their "problem" is that on some of the days I either played or downloaded the free play I did not use my own cash. While this is true, what about the other days during the month when I did play my $400,000 of coin-in?

QUESTION: Must you play your own cash on the same day that you download or use free play? That is the question.

It seems they've done a pretty clear job of answering that question for you. I didn't miss anything about what you wrote -- you said you've got a monthly theo of around 3200 and they're comping you 320 (10%) in free play. Presumably you got another 15%-25% somewhere in other comp value too. But on the days where you play only free play, your ADT -- average daily theo -- is strongly negative. What I'm suggesting, and what I think the response from the marketing team shows, is that a consistent ADT is valued more highly by a casino (or at least Harrah's Rincon) than a wildly-fluctuating ADT. Even if your average *monthly* theo is the same.

Also, don't get hung up on 400k coin-in. You're playing VP at 0.8% edge, that's not worth much. If you were playing penny slots at 7% edge you'd get the high-roller treatment, but six figures in handle is right on target for a local who plays $1-denom VP every evening. I'm assuming you're playing $5 coins for fewer hours; that makes you more dangerous to the operator.

Quote: DoubleOrNothing

What do they call you?

I really don't care what anyone calls me. Doesn't affect me.

Quote: MathExtremist

Presumably you got another 15%-25% somewhere in other comp value too.

Where? As I said, I don't stay in the hotel. I don't get any special offers or comps that other 7 Stars players don't also get. There are no special meals for me. The only time I got something extra was several years ago when the head of marketing at Rincon invited me for dinner to discuss the article on my website about Rincon downgrading their VP pay tables. Because of my article and the response it generated, Rincon reversed that decision within 24 hours.

Quote: MathExtremist

Also, don't get hung up on 400k coin-in. You're playing VP at 0.8% edge, that's not worth much. If you were playing penny slots at 7% edge you'd get the high-roller treatment, but six figures in handle is right on target for a local who plays $1-denom VP every evening. I'm assuming you're playing $5 coins for fewer hours; that makes you more dangerous to the operator.

Yes, I start my sessions at $1 Aces and Face (8/5) then if I win I move up to $2 and then $5. It's when I hit at the $5 level that I put though a lot of coin-in. Example: on my last trip (when I found out I wasn't getting free play anymore) I started on 25-cent Royal Aces Bonus with $100 out of my pocket, and hit quad aces for $1,000. Switched to 8/5 Aces and Faces for $1 and got some quads for $200 each and then quad aces for $400 and then went to $5 Aces and Faces where I hit some more quads. A couple of hours later I had 5,600 tier points before the 10,000 tier point bonus. I left with about $500. Not a huge profit, but a $400 profit on the day.

Quote: DoubleOrNothing

The stuff about the Wizard making more than an actuary. Something about 20 million dollars with his sites. True or false?

False, it was 2.35M. Google it.

Quote:

Credibility involves proof. Pick your poison. Sorry, no excuses.
Sensible persons inquire about proved earnings before embarking on a serious career. Do you work for a casino too?

Nonsense, every entrepreneur takes that risk. If you want "proved earnings" then get a job working for someone else.

Casino advantage player (aka "professional gambler") may not be your idea of a serious career, but those doing it don't care. Personally, I've long said that someone with the talent to be a successful AP could likely make more money in an engineering job, but there's usually a reason they choose to gamble for a living. The decision to be an AP comes from the lifestyle choice, not because it maximizes lifetime earnings.

As for myself, I consult for both operators and vendors in both the land-based and online markets. But I work for myself. Who do you work for?

Every casino is different I have one casino that knows a friend comes in one week a month and I use his freeplay the other days and they say nothing. Then on the other hand I have a casino where a friend lost 115k in one weekend and gave his card to his sister to pick up his 1k weekly freeplay and they banned him. Really makes no sense so for 1k they lost 115k player - even if she picked up offers for 6 months which would be 24k if they actually sent for 6 months still a bad move. I'm starting to see that it's all about personalities and casino personal not even really understanding most things in the casino. I can think of two examples of this. Actually three. At one local casino you can play match on baccarat but only in player so one would think they don't want to deal with commission but the same casino allows it to be used in pai gow. Another casino won't allow 1 dollar chips on a side bet stating it must be 5 dollar increments once it reaches 5 dollars but you can play 1 2 3 or 4 dollars just not 6 or 7 etc and yet an another casino in pai gow makes the dealer play qq 66 234 including 5 hearts and they play the flush with q6 instead of two pair rule

Alan,

I'm going to reply in a manner similar to the way I replied to the Tropicana thread:

1.) The casino is inherently free to no mail you or cut off your offers whenever it likes.

2.) You are free to no longer play there.

3.) It seems that you have a monthly theoretical loss of about $2500, or so, based on numbers posted earlier and assuming the 400k coin-in for the month. This could be less if you only play cash on multiplier days, but I don't know what the base cash back is for that casino, so I cannot calculate a new monthly theoretical without knowing that.

4.) If you have days upon which you just pick up your free play, take whatever happens, and leave, then those days will reduce your ADT. If you have four Free Play days and play on two other days, (Did you mention how many specific times you went last month, sorry if I missed that?) then your ADT is $400 and change. More if you had fewer visits, less if you had more visits.

5.) I would find it difficult to believe it would hurt you if you played off your Free Play, won money, and then continued to play without ever HAVING to put your own cash in. However, it sounds like you had a couple of occasions in which you just picked it up and left. That could hurt you, depends on the casino.

6.) In either case, that's not how I would market, assuming all statements regarding your play are true. If I were a Marketing Manager, then I might take a closer look and make sure you are not playing only on multiplier days, though. In any case, if I'm making a couple grand a month off of you in theoretical, I'd probably be happy.

But, again, all casinos are different.

Mission you've got most of the details correct. There were days I only played the free play and probably because I won using just the free play.

I never played on a multiplier day at Rincon. Multiplier day is Thursday and it's a day I can't get there. I typically play Friday night. My weekly free play is available to download on Friday until midnight. I usually arrive shortly before midnight and then play in the overnight hours.

It's also possible that they are looking at this: I download the free play just before midnight Friday (one calendar day) and then my play is recorded after midnight (Saturday morning). However, I think the casino's "day" starts at 6-am.

Look, if that's the rule and the policy then that's the rule and the policy. I have heard from many others who have had the same problem. They stopped going to Rincon and now I will stop going to Rincon. Frankly Rincon loses more than I lose. Maybe I'm not worth what a penny slot player is worth, but Rincon made money off of me -- UNTIL NOW.

They certainly look at ADT, so if the play records are available to you, as they are to them, maybe contact that host and explain that you never left the casino, but that your play, which happened in the space of a few hours, might have taken place on two different days as far as their system is concerned.

Ultimately, they might think you have eight visits last month, maybe nine given that 8/1/15 fell on Saturday. Once you subtract the Free Play given and consider comp points (whatever they're worth) then you could be looking at a sub $300 ADT if they are thinking it is nine days. A monthly theoretical of $2700 would be $300 ADT on the nose in nine visits, after all.

I don't know, maybe see if you can make sure those days count as one day. If you've just picked up Free Play though with little to no coin after running FP through, as we are seeing, places seem increasingly annoyed with that sort of thing.

Call the host again and if you don't like what they have to say, as you've indicated you would, vote with your feet. Go drain a couple beers somewhere close to midnight. Maybe read more books than you already do. Either way, if they put you off and you're a losing player (theoretically) as you say you are, then they're losing and you're winning by not going there.

My host can't understand it either. My play records are on the total rewards website.

Yes. Rincon did me a favor.

Slot Manager or Marketing Director. Maybe.

But, if you really view it as a favor, then just keep it as is either way.

Quote: Mission146

Slot Manager or Marketing Director. Maybe.

But, if you really view it as a favor, then just keep it as is either way.

You're right of course. Rincon is not the player friendly casino it used to be.

Locals would be better off at Pechanga and those of us who would rather play in Vegas should do that -- simply skip the local joints and just play in Vegas.

Off subject just a little, sorry.
I have banged around The Total Rewards website and am not aware how to view play records.
Can you explain to a neophyte? Thx.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Off subject just a little, sorry.
I have banged around The Total Rewards website and am not aware how to view play records.
Can you explain to a neophyte? Thx.

Log in to your account with your Total Rewards card number and password. You can sign up online.

Then go to the page called "MY TR" which will show your tier score and reward credits.

On the page called "TR Statement" you can choose the play history and comps used for a particular month.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Log in to your account with your Total Rewards card number and password. You can sign up online.

Then go to the page called "MY TR" which will show your tier score and reward credits.

On the page called "TR Statement" you can choose the play history and comps used for a particular month.

I'm familiar with all that except the play history, I'll look again, Thx.
Maybe the last month I looked at didn't have any play, so there was nothing to see.
I don't get there but a few times a year.

I just saw August. I think it was just added.

When I checked yesterday the latest month was July.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I just saw August. I think it was just added.

When I checked yesterday the latest month was July.

Yeah, somewhere in there it says they update statements on the 7th of each month.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Yeah, somewhere in there it says they update statements on the 7th of each month.

I looked at July and August, saw I was there, but only on the days I earned RC or redeemed RC. Other than inferring RC as related to table play, I do not see any other "play records". I only play BJ.
I had hoped to see additional info, I know they have it, apparently that's all they will share with me. I'm only Diamond, maybe 7* is different.

Good discussion, good points to keep in mind. Here's the Catch-22 as it applies to me:

We get free or deeply discounted rooms at CET in Vegas from time to time. I like that part, duh ! And I know we need to play "enuff" there to stay on the "good" list. But the VP offerings are generally so poor at CET, I prefer to play at TI or NYNY or a little off-strip.

Anyway, I try to play the "game". IE, they know I want something and I know they want something (that is is my wallet).

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

I looked at July and August, saw I was there, but only on the days I earned RC or redeemed RC. Other than inferring RC as related to table play, I do not see any other "play records". I only play BJ.
I had hoped to see additional info, I know they have it, apparently that's all they will share with me. I'm only Diamond, maybe 7* is different.

Unfortunately with table play it is hard to decipher how they rated you.

For slots and video poker the coin-in per point is set, and this is how I determine how much coin-in I have.

At Rincon for example, I rarely play more than $100 at their card craps game and there is no play at slots. That leaves video poker, so I just multiply the reported tier points earned X 10 to find my coin in.

Quote: MathExtremist

Quote:

DoubleOrNothing
The stuff about the Wizard making more than an actuary. Something about 20 million dollars with his sites.True or false?

False, it was 2.35M. Google it.

No need. (But you do seem to edit a lot of your posts later on to have those appear less silly, as with the $10,000 roulette bunch.) So, I can now re-conclude again that the Wizard certainly didn't make anywhere near more than what's he's qualified to make. Esp'ly when we further consider he seems to view himself a "top dog" at what he does.

Quote: MathExtremist

Nonsense, every entrepreneur takes that risk. If you want "proved earnings" then get a job working for someone else.

Calling AP's and professional gamblers entrepreneurs is a new one on me. I've heard of small businesses, or businesses which grew, being called entrepreneurs. Egs, http://smallbusiness.foxbusiness.com/entrepreneurs/2013/10/21/and-average-entrepreneur-salary-is/ and http://www.inc.com/ss/francesca-fenzi/10-entrepreneurs-who-built-las-vegas

Even "professional gamblers" is a stretch.

Quote: MathExtremist

Casino advantage player (aka "professional gambler") may not be your idea of a serious career, but those doing it don't care. Personally, I've long said that someone with the talent to be a successful AP could likely make more money in an engineering job, but there's usually a reason they choose to gamble for a living. The decision to be an AP comes from the lifestyle choice, not because it maximizes lifetime earnings.

More gook. Proved earnings are at least reported in a definable business category, so that those may be studied later. The irony with this sort of so-called math-based forum is that the proofs end exactly at the spot where the reality of AP ends. Where are the studies of AP opportunity in practice? And how is such opportunity optimized? Even these simple do-it-yourself things, along with the many other means of factually determining the so-called AP stuff, just aren't being even attempted.

Acting, gobbledegook, sarcasm, and evasiveness, can't change the fact that the cards or slots must be played in a particular way to win. Nothing is hidden about the players' plays in a casino. The AP's are increasingly in a "sandbox" of real mathematicians' and statisticians' design, and overly paranoid casino surveillance. A while ago, someone posted about sci-fi advances. The real sci-fi (unknown) is what the casinos have used against the players for decades.

There is, however, a sh*t load of evidence of all sorts to the contrary. AP's who wrote of little overall profit and a lot of personal misfortune, or just gave up, in their brief stints online. And a lot of AP dreamers who spend day and night on the internet telling us about it (one after having deleted 5000 posts and then returning for more) despite this self-contradictory AP trait. The drunk mc's and tax-illiterate RS_ _ (hl?)'s at also Alan's forum. I mean, have fun spending hours trying to explain yourself there among six other posters, as Humpty Dumpty tries to put his collective self back together again.

Psychologically sad. Where gambling seems to take ya. Just the facts. Call it AP or SP, doesn't seem to matter. Lofty garbage to plain garbage. Where all the gambling forums end up. Where the Shackelford's make what MathExtremist called an "exit". Nobody's going to pick the "lose less" pieces either.

Quote: MathExtremist

As for myself, I consult for both operators and vendors in both the land-based and online markets. But I work for myself.

What does that even mean? Sounds like one of your strange "chatboxes" accusations when you want to avoid a direct question of mine. Obviously, you don't work for any casino. People can make up all sorts of good sounding stuff on the internet about how casinos operate. But, unless you're in upper upper management, or have sued a casino, then, in reality, you have no idea what you're writing about. The former, of course, won't write anything about it. (They're not even compellable to testify in a court?)

Why do the AP's, and the Shackleford's for that matter, even bother with people on the internet? What do you want from us? What can we give you guys, the ones who seem to want to appear to know and do it all? Surely, if you're making so much money, and so many valuable breakthroughs in the process, you wouldn't be here to announce it all in such "uncertain" (vague) terms. If someone were making a "store" of me, I would call him an idiot for even letting me know about it. Money, of course. It's a business of sorts.

Quote: MathExtremist

Who do you work for?

I don't work for anyone or anything even associated with what I would call, in fundamental terms, the perpetuation of a lifelong addiction. Not the sort of business I want to be involved with, other than poking around here from the outside looking in to study all the wonderful gambling-related stuff which the forum, itself, showed little interest in all along. You guys have no idea.

But, there is no going back to missed opportunities, or the depths of depravity as when the Wizard first directly "went to bed" with convicted US fugitive felon Calvin Ayre (from a long line of crooks). "But no one else will sponsor me," from the guy who I think now wants us to believe in millions of dollars of profit here. You have to ask, why did Ayre finally dump him, or what went wrong there? Among so many other curious facts, of course. (Or, I have to ask, as the gambling psyche can't face these things.)

Quote: DoubleOrNothing

What does that even mean? Sounds like one of your strange "chatboxes" accusations when you want to avoid a direct question of mine. Obviously, you don't work for any casino. People can make up all sorts of good sounding stuff on the internet about how casinos operate. But, unless you're in upper upper management, or have sued a casino, then, in reality, you have no idea what you're writing about. The former, of course, won't write anything about it. (They're not even compellable to testify in a court?)

It means exactly what I wrote. I'm a self-employed consultant to the casino industry, and I qualify for "knowing what I'm writing about" under both prongs of your (nevertheless improper) two-pronged test. Right now I do happen to work for a casino though not in the way you probably imagine. But that cuts to the point that your imagination about how the industry works is very fertile but also very wrong. For someone who admits to not being in the gambling business, why do you post so much incorrect anti-gambling rhetoric here? Your last tidbit, for example, is entirely wrong. Top gaming executives can absolutely be subpoenaed to testify. I've witnessed it firsthand on several occasions, and it was a big deal when Sheldon Adelson was called to the stand earlier this year:
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/09/sheldon-adelson-macau-testimony-las-vegas-sands

I also don't comprehend your overblown antipathy for Mike or his business, especially because building and selling a web property for over $2M is a lot of money l in any industry. Have you ever made $2M in one transaction? Casting resentful aspersions at someone who has only makes you sound petty and jealous.

Not to defend Shackleford, but he started out as actuary, got bored with it, and created the Wizard of Odds. That grew. He became an authority on gaming. He created WoV and the forums back in '09 primary I believe to discuss all things Vegas. It took off, but he was tied to a single sponsor in Bodog with rising costs. Not a great business decision, I would agree. He was close to the point of giving up, and indeed he finally sold out for $2M. Good for him. He earned it.

He probably educated tens of thousands of people on what games to play, how to play, and what games to avoid. Back in '02 when I started going to casinos and wanted to learn new games, I would print off his pages and study.

Mike never claimed to be AP. Quite the contrary. He was out to demonstrate that AP was far and few between. The advantage plays that exist and have been talked about these days have to do with craps (extremely debatable), Blackjack counting (avoid the heat), some slot plays (mostly around progressives), and other things that borderline or are cheating (hole-carding, collusion, etc). That information is invaluable in dissuading wanna-bes professionals, helping casino security stop these plays (the Revel promotion, for example), and provides lively conversation from time to time. In the end, Mike is a sharer of information. That is the value that he provides and members of this site provide: a common portal for all things gambling. You will rarely find any real-time AP plays here because gamblers generally keep that information to themselves. Some things like Mike's Oscar picks and some sports play are published.

Vendors are suppliers to the casino industry (such as slot machine makers). Operators are casinos. I understand this.

And you got a problem with Calvin Ayre?

I just want to update:

I never heard from anyone at the casino including my host. That's fine. They'll never see me again.

Here's an Article loosely related to the subject matter:

https://wizardofvegas.com/article/Free-Play-If-You-Stay/

As you can see, Alan, my example is of a player with a lower ADT than you, albeit one playing a worse game, though.

Quote: boymimbo

Mike is a sharer of information.

Thank you for that post. It was very accurately put.

Yes, I never claimed to be a serious AP. I used to be fairly serious about it but now just dabble in it from time to time. Like the half-point parlay cards.

Above all, yes, I am a sharer of information. I think the world would be a better place if there were unfettered access to truthful information. I take no side in the AP vs. casino battle. My goal is to share my analysis of casino games and then let the chips fall where they may. Hopefully, in the process, everybody will learn something.

Meanwhile, I'd like to say goodbye to DoubleOrNothing. I wish you well, elsewhere.

Quote: Mission146

Here's an Article loosely related to the subject matter:

https://wizardofvegas.com/article/Free-Play-If-You-Stay/

As you can see, Alan, my example is of a player with a lower ADT than you, albeit one playing a worse game, though.

Good article and a fair report. But what Rincon did was open my eyes and now I realize that with my amount of play I can get much better offers elsewhere -- and I am and I am taking them.

Rincon made their decision and I made mine. I have a reservation at Bellagio at the end of the month with free rooms and more free play than Rincon has given me over the past six months. And the host there is happy to get my business.

Alan, you'll obviously get better deals at Bellagio, but with my paltry vp play here at MGM Detroit, my fp offers are very very generous.

Quote: Wizard

Thank you for that post. It was very accurately put.

Yes, I never claimed to be a serious AP. I used to be fairly serious about it but now just dabble in it from time to time. Like the half-point parlay cards.

Above all, yes, I am a sharer of information. I think the world would be a better place if there were unfettered access to truthful information. I take no side in the AP vs. casino battle. My goal is to share my analysis of casino games and then let the chips fall where they may. Hopefully, in the process, everybody will learn something.

Meanwhile, I'd like to say goodbye to DoubleOrNothing. I wish you well, elsewhere.

I missed something, again. The Wiz said bye to DoubleOrNothing?
What's up with that?
I want the Cookie Monster here, I want it now.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

I missed something, again. The Wiz said bye to DoubleOrNothing?
What's up with that?
I want the Cookie Monster here, I want it now.

I'm pretty sure you can find him as OneHitWonder at Alan's forum.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I'm pretty sure you can find him as OneHitWonder at Alan's forum.

You obviously missed the point of the post.
I have no desire to look elsewhere.

Thanks for the compliment, Alan. I hope that you enjoy the Bellagio, it is not surprising that your offers should be better at most Vegas casinos.

And, just to reiterate, I think Rincon made a poor business decision in this case. The example in my Article is clearly one of a less valuable player.

Quote: Wizard

Meanwhile, I'd like to say goodbye to DoubleOrNothing. I wish you well, elsewhere.

I say good riddance. He may have been an intelligent person, but His posts tended to be arrogant, overly negative and malicious. I can only assume he didn't fair so well gambling or something. He couldn't forget it and needed people to take his anger out on. Hopefully he will learn a lesson and take a long look in a mirror.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

You obviously missed the point of the post.
I have no desire to look elsewhere.

He got nuked.

As one former poster, Buzzard, often said, "Mike's House; Mike's Rules", but then Zuga came along after the sites' sale, and Buzzard trolled Zuga so badly that Zuga nuked him. Lol

And as for the thread in hand, likely another short-sighted decision by CET. Definitely won't be the last.

Quote: Wizard

Meanwhile, I'd like to say goodbye to DoubleOrNothing.

Wiz - your patience is pretty amazing. This is long overdue.

just a guess, but this bottom feeder is probably gone because of this.

Quote: DoubleOrNothing

Quote: MathExtremist

Quote:

DoubleOrNothing

But, there is no going back to missed opportunities, or the depths of depravity as when the Wizard first directly "went to bed" with convicted US fugitive felon Calvin Ayre (from a long line of crooks). "But no one else will sponsor me," from the guy who I think now wants us to believe in millions of dollars of profit here. You have to ask, why did Ayre finally dump him, or what went wrong there? Among so many other curious facts, of course. (Or, I have to ask, as the gambling psyche can't face these things.)

OK, I had missed the disrespect.
The Wiz deserves better.
I feel almost the same about all the admins BTW.
I withdraw my complaint, it was really just a feeble joke anyway

What's up with Calvin Ayre, anyway?

The guy has been in America's Homeland Security's Ten Most Wanted list due to criminal charges arising from his earlier internet bodog.com gambling endeavors, yet recently he threw a huge well-publicized party in a posh club in Vancouver B.C.

Such are the days in the lives of internet gambling moguls.

Quote: JohnnyQ

Wiz - your patience is pretty amazing. This is long overdue.

Thank you! Glad at least one person saw it that way.