Judge Dismisses $3M Suit against Foxwoods ( mini-Baccarat Edge Sorters )
Associated Press Article
Excerpt:
In a judgment entered Monday in federal court in New Haven, U.S. District Judge Janet Hall ruled the gamblers couldn't sue Foxwoods because the Connecticut casino's owner, the Mashantucket Pequots, has sovereign immunity as an American Indian tribe.
But the fact is these places play by their own rules, with almost no oversight by any kind of real gaming commission or agency and very little recourse to anything. They can cheat, steal, or detain you almost at will. And when they arrest you on some phony trumped up charge, you get to go before the arresting officer's, brother-in-law who is the judge. :/ I don't know why any AP or even any player playing serious money, would patronize such a place. ??
Hum...let's see, in the case of blackjack, good blackjack rules....great penetration...only problem is a few aces and tens are missing from the deck and nothing you can do about it. No thanks....I'll stick to places that are regulated and you have some avenues of recourse even if the conditions are a little less 'favorable'. I like to know what I am REALLY dealing with, going in. :)
Me too.Quote: tringlomaneIs it bad when I read the title I thought of 3M the company?
It took several reads of that article to realize that there's a missing dollar sign.
It's a $3M suit...
I certainly hope that everyone knows to steer clear of ever putting up front money and gambling in that dump!
BJ promotions added to good conditions make up for the rare event something bad goes down.Quote: kewljI really don't see and have never seen the appeal of Indian casinos. A couple years ago, some of the players that I network with regularly always seemed to be flying off to this or that Indian casino in the Midwest because they had such great conditions. They laughed at me for slogging through my rotation in Vegas with a handful of trips to places like Pa mixed in.
But the fact is these places play by their own rules, with almost no oversight by any kind of real gaming commission or agency and very little recourse to anything. They can cheat, steal, or detain you almost at will. And when they arrest you on some phony trumped up charge, you get to go before the arresting officer's, brother-in-law who is the judge. :/ I don't know why any AP or even any player playing serious money, would patronize such a place. ??
Hum...let's see, in the case of blackjack, good blackjack rules....great penetration...only problem is a few aces and tens are missing from the deck and nothing you can do about it. No thanks....I'll stick to places that are regulated and you have some avenues of recourse even if the conditions are a little less 'favorable'. I like to know what I am REALLY dealing with, going in. :)
If someone was trying to cheat me, I would feel justified in keeping their money. The question remains, is what they did cheating? I strongly believe not, but it also wouldn't surprise me if they had the dealer in on it too, as that has happened before at Foxwoods. The ruling in Ivey's case strengthens their position. In this case, I see that they can do it without any sort of backlash, so I see no reason why they would return it.
Quote: tongni...The question remains, is what they did cheating? I strongly believe not, but it also wouldn't surprise me if they had the dealer in on it too, as that has happened before at Foxwoods...
I've said this many times before. Indian casinos can and will make up their own rules and laws on the spot. If you go in one, make one bet on red in roulette and win that bet, they can say you cheated and you have no recourse.
Quote: kewljI really don't see and have never seen the appeal of Indian casinos. A couple years ago, some of the players that I network with regularly always seemed to be flying off to this or that Indian casino in the Midwest because they had such great conditions. They laughed at me for slogging through my rotation in Vegas with a handful of trips to places like Pa mixed in.
But the fact is these places play by their own rules, with almost no oversight by any kind of real gaming commission or agency and very little recourse to anything. They can cheat, steal, or detain you almost at will. And when they arrest you on some phony trumped up charge, you get to go before the arresting officer's, brother-in-law who is the judge. :/ I don't know why any AP or even any player playing serious money, would patronize such a place. ??
Hum...let's see, in the case of blackjack, good blackjack rules....great penetration...only problem is a few aces and tens are missing from the deck and nothing you can do about it. No thanks....I'll stick to places that are regulated and you have some avenues of recourse even if the conditions are a little less 'favorable'. I like to know what I am REALLY dealing with, going in. :)
I work as a Internal Auditor for the gaming commission that is charged with regulating our gaming facilities. While I will agree that there have been instances of abuse, I would like to point out that this is fairly rare and the same issues seen in tribal casinos can also be found in other non-tribal casinos. There have been bad apples but in general the games offered at tribal casinos are as fair as the one offered in non-tribal casinos. As far as oversight goes, you should be aware that there is oversight by the NIGC and also by the state that tribal casino resides in. What that means in my state is that the gaming operations are audited three times per year. We are required by federal law to have an independent CPA firm audits our financials and our procedures that support the NIGC MICS. The state also sends in representatives from their gaming commission to also audit us. That also includes a financial audit and a review of policies that are governed by the state compact. Along with those two audits, I also run an audit to determine our adherence to the NIGC and tribal MICS, TICS and SICS. This also does in include a audit of our finances and adherence to GAAP. The only people we "backroom" are MIPS who we hold until either their parents or police show up. As far as customer disputes go, I have not seen one in over five years and the state has not approached us with any customer disputes that I know of.
With that being said I do not agree with the court ruling but do believe the courts hands were tied in this matter. Tribal sovereignty was used as a defense and the courts agreed with it. I am of the opinion that cases like this hurt all tribes and that sovereignty should not be used in this manner. This whole mess really should never have risen to this level. If you as a table games manager are unaware of edge-sorting then you should be looking for another job. This and the other edge-sorting cases are just ridiculous. If you get burned on your floor because you allowed a player to dictate terms that allowed for this type of play then you deserve to loose and to loose big.
(edited. added and r and dropped an o)
Quote: kewljI really don't see and have never seen the appeal of Indian casinos. A couple years ago, some of the players that I network with regularly always seemed to be flying off to this or that Indian casino in the Midwest because they had such great conditions. They laughed at me for slogging through my rotation in Vegas with a handful of trips to places like Pa mixed in.
But the fact is these places play by their own rules, with almost no oversight by any kind of real gaming commission or agency and very little recourse to anything. They can cheat, steal, or detain you almost at will. And when they arrest you on some phony trumped up charge, you get to go before the arresting officer's, brother-in-law who is the judge. :/ I don't know why any AP or even any player playing serious money, would patronize such a place. ??
Hum...let's see, in the case of blackjack, good blackjack rules....great penetration...only problem is a few aces and tens are missing from the deck and nothing you can do about it. No thanks....I'll stick to places that are regulated and you have some avenues of recourse even if the conditions are a little less 'favorable'. I like to know what I am REALLY dealing with, going in. :)
Precisely the reason that I only play poker in tribal casinos. Sadly, the ones in Oklahoma are the closest casinos to Austin.
Quote: waasnodayTribal sovereignty was used as a defense and the courts agreed with it.
I wouldn't call it a defense per se; the court didn't actually rule on the issues of cheating or forfeiture. If I'm reading this right, tribal sovereignty was used as a procedural matter to point out that the US Courts don't have jurisdiction over tribal gaming disputes like this. The case should have been brought in tribal court instead.
If there's a fistfight at a Las Vegas bar and Jerry breaks Phil's glasses, Phil can't sue the Jerry in Kansas or Sweden. You have to sue in a court that has the legal authority to hear and decide the case.
I don't know whether the casino is correct in confiscating the front money. Perhaps they're arguing it was used in the commission of a crime? I don't know what US law says generally about this and I certainly don't know what tribal law says.
Edit to add a quote from their attorney:
"… If Foxwoods and Foxwoods management knew that plaintiffs were edge-sorting and let them practice their form of advantage play anyway — intending to keep their losses if they lost but not honor their winnings if they won — this would be intentional fraud."
And yes, this is the same woman who was Phil Ivey's partner in the London and Atlantic City edge-sorting incidents.
It has been publicly and clearly pointed out for decades that casinos on sovereign land retain inherent powers, except when a tribe abridges or abrogates them through compacts with the state. The "tribal law" has for eons been what the tribal council or even just the chief says it is. Lots of luck in even locating inscribed ordinances and judicial decisions.Quote: MathExtremistI don't know whether the casino is correct in confiscating the front money. Perhaps they're arguing it was used in the commission of a crime? I don't know what US law says generally about this and I certainly don't know what tribal law says.
Not sure if all the tribes are represented here but there are quite a few.
However since they're in bed with the state that's not likely to happen.
Quote: HunterhillHowever since they're in bed with the state that's not likely to happen.
And the feds too.
Quote: AxelWolfBJ promotions added to good conditions make up for the rare event something bad goes down.
I hear ya, Axel. But again, if they are cheating, maybe the promotion isn't what is seems. :/
It's a weigh risk vs reward thing, as almost everything is. And for me, add in my dislike of travel and I am just not going chasing all over the country (or world) as some do, when I really don't know if I am getting a fair shake.
It's funny, the last BJ promotion I did go chasing after was at an Indian Casino in Connecticut. It was the triple down promo about 5-6 years ago that went for 24 hours. It pretty much turned in to as close to an AP convention as I have seen. The AP's literally camped out at their table for 24 hours. I was living in Philly at the time and took the train up, arriving just after midnight. I played about 12 or 13 hours I guess. Fell behind big very early on and spent the next 12 hours or so fighting back close to even. I don't remember if I lost a little or won a little, I think lost, but I can tell you apparently I was the only AP that didn't win and win big, (at least according to the boasts on the boards). Lol.
Giving credit where credit is due, it became VERY apparent during the promotion that the casino was taking a far greater hit than they anticipated, and many players feared they would pull the plug early but the casino stuck it out for the full 24 hours of the promotion.
Quote: waasnoday
If you as a table games manager are unaware of edge-sorting then you should be looking for another job. This and the other edge-sorting cases are just ridiculous. If you get burned on your floor because you allowed a player to dictate terms that allowed for this type of play then you deserve to loose and to loose big.
I've read this sentiment a lot, but I think it's very wrong. Being aware of something and catching it in progress are two totally different things. If you said "here are some AP's, they will be 100% doing something, watch them and make sure they don't generate an edge", I think a great many people can figure it out. If you have hundreds of whales over the course of a year and one of them pulls a really sophisticated move, you are odds on not a huge favorite to catch it. At any given time, the director of surveillance is probably keeping tabs of multiple patrons and employees, as well as dealing with personnel issues. It seems they did figure it out, because they kept the money instead of paying them out.
It is extremely hard to be a good director of surveillance. I've seen casinos where the EITS seems to be omniscient, and others where it's probably not even on.
I will add that I have yet to find an article that states how they attacked this specific casino but the "Queen of Sorts" did seem to have a SOP of making requests on how the cards were handled due to superstition. If that was not done, then my apologies to Foxwoods for coming down hard on their TG crew.
Quote: kewljI really don't see and have never seen the appeal of Indian casinos. A couple years ago, some of the players that I network with regularly always seemed to be flying off to this or that Indian casino in the Midwest because they had such great conditions. They laughed at me for slogging through my rotation in Vegas with a handful of trips to places like Pa mixed in.
But the fact is these places play by their own rules, with almost no oversight by any kind of real gaming commission or agency and very little recourse to anything. They can cheat, steal, or detain you almost at will. And when they arrest you on some phony trumped up charge, you get to go before the arresting officer's, brother-in-law who is the judge. :/ I don't know why any AP or even any player playing serious money, would patronize such a place. ??
Hum...let's see, in the case of blackjack, good blackjack rules....great penetration...only problem is a few aces and tens are missing from the deck and nothing you can do about it. No thanks....I'll stick to places that are regulated and you have some avenues of recourse even if the conditions are a little less 'favorable'. I like to know what I am REALLY dealing with, going in. :)
My thoughts exactly. I've never suspected a land based casino of cheating or shaving the rules in any way. But these places could literally get away with murder.
Quote: waasnodayI work as a Internal Auditor for the gaming commission that is charged with regulating our gaming facilities. While I will agree that there have been instances of abuse, I would like to point out that this is fairly rare and the same issues seen in tribal casinos can also be found in other non-tribal casinos. There have been bad apples but in general the games offered at tribal casinos are as fair as the one offered in non-tribal casinos. As far as oversight goes, you should be aware that there is oversight by the NIGC and also by the state that tribal casino resides in. What that means in my state is that the gaming operations are audited three times per year. We are required by federal law to have an independent CPA firm audits our financials and our procedures that support the NIGC MICS. The state also sends in representatives from their gaming commission to also audit us. That also includes a financial audit and a review of policies that are governed by the state compact. Along with those two audits, I also run an audit to determine our adherence to the NIGC and tribal MICS, TICS and SICS. This also does in include a audit of our finances and adherence to GAAP. The only people we "backroom" are MIPS who we hold until either their parents or police show up. As far as customer disputes go, I have not seen one in over five years and the state has not approached us with any customer disputes that I know of.
With that being said I do not agree with the court ruling but do believe the courts hands were tied in this matter. Tribal sovereignty was used as a defense and the courts agreed with it. I am of the opinion that cases like this hurt all tribes and that sovereignty should not be used in this manner. This whole mess really should never have risen to this level. If you as a table games manager are unaware of edge-sorting then you should be looking for another job. This and the other edge-sorting cases are just ridiculous. If you get burned on your floor because you allowed a player to dictate terms that allowed for this type of play then you deserve to loose and to loose big.
(edited. added and r and dropped an o)
This is a great, clarifying post, waas! Thanks for taking the time.
Quote: beachbumbabsThis is a great, clarifying post, waas! Thanks for taking the time.
I disagree, BBB. No offense, to waasnoday. I appreciate his insight, but he is mostly talking about financial audits and oversight, where we are concerned with no oversight as far as an agency like a casino commission that handles complaints and hopefully takes a serious look at things like cheating. In the case of Indian casinos, they have such a agency usually, by whatever name they want to assign it, but it's basically a case of the fox looking after the hen house. You are not getting any kind of impartial oversight, monitoring or investigation.
Quote: DJTeddyBearMe too.
It took several reads of that article to realize that there's a missing dollar sign.
It's a $3M suit...
Thanks to whoever edited and clarified my Post Subject with the $ sign !
Quote: JohnnyQThanks to whoever edited and clarified my Post Subject with the $ sign !
That would be me. lol...
kewlj,
My point was what waasnoday posted gave us a lot of general NIGA and regulatory information with which to contrast the FW's shoddy practices. I found it very useful.
The particular point you make about tribal authorities playing fast and loose with jurisdiction and standard gaming practices, and players using caution or avoiding their businesses is also worth thinking about, and I appreciate what you're saying.
I hear ya as well. If you're making a comfortable living and happy doing what you're doing then that's what's important. Some guys enjoy traveling and the thrill of possible bigger opportunities.Quote: kewljI hear ya, Axel. But again, if they are cheating, maybe the promotion isn't what is seems. :/
It's a weigh risk vs reward thing, as almost everything is. And for me, add in my dislike of travel and I am just not going chasing all over the country (or world) as some do, when I really don't know if I am getting a fair shake.
It's funny, the last BJ promotion I did go chasing after was at an Indian Casino in Connecticut. It was the triple down promo about 5-6 years ago that went for 24 hours. It pretty much turned in to as close to an AP convention as I have seen. The AP's literally camped out at their table for 24 hours. I was living in Philly at the time and took the train up, arriving just after midnight. I played about 12 or 13 hours I guess. Fell behind big very early on and spent the next 12 hours or so fighting back close to even. I don't remember if I lost a little or won a little, I think lost, but I can tell you apparently I was the only AP that didn't win and win big, (at least according to the boasts on the boards). Lol.
Giving credit where credit is due, it became VERY apparent during the promotion that the casino was taking a far greater hit than they anticipated, and many players feared they would pull the plug early but the casino stuck it out for the full 24 hours of the promotion.
That's happened to me many times. Big promotion comes and it seems I'm the only one who didn't make a killing. But there's many times where I did way better than expected.
Quote: waasnodayI work as a Internal Auditor for the gaming commission that is charged with regulating our gaming facilities. While I will agree that there have been instances of abuse, I would like to point out that this is fairly rare and the same issues seen in tribal casinos can also be found in other non-tribal casinos. There have been bad apples but in general the games offered at tribal casinos are as fair as the one offered in non-tribal casinos. As far as oversight goes, you should be aware that there is oversight by the NIGC and also by the state that tribal casino resides in. What that means in my state is that the gaming operations are audited three times per year. We are required by federal law to have an independent CPA firm audits our financials and our procedures that support the NIGC MICS. The state also sends in representatives from their gaming commission to also audit us. That also includes a financial audit and a review of policies that are governed by the state compact. Along with those two audits, I also run an audit to determine our adherence to the NIGC and tribal MICS, TICS and SICS. This also does in include a audit of our finances and adherence to GAAP. The only people we "backroom" are MIPS who we hold until either their parents or police show up. As far as customer disputes go, I have not seen one in over five years and the state has not approached us with any customer disputes that I know of.
With that being said I do not agree with the court ruling but do believe the courts hands were tied in this matter. Tribal sovereignty was used as a defense and the courts agreed with it. I am of the opinion that cases like this hurt all tribes and that sovereignty should not be used in this manner. This whole mess really should never have risen to this level. If you as a table games manager are unaware of edge-sorting then you should be looking for another job. This and the other edge-sorting cases are just ridiculous. If you get burned on your floor because you allowed a player to dictate terms that allowed for this type of play then you deserve to loose and to loose big.
(edited. added and r and dropped an o)
Isn't the state audit more focused on making sure the state is getting their fair share of the revenues collected? In other words, the state is auditing to make sure the state is not getting cheated. It is my guess the state audit doesn't really try to figure out if the players are getting cheated.
I do agree with you that most tribal casinos are completely legit, and it is only a few that cast a bad light on all tribal casinos, but this case does show at least one of the potential pitfalls of gaming on tribal lands.
Quote: RaleighCrapsIsn't the state audit more focused on making sure the state is getting their fair share of the revenues collected? In other words, the state is auditing to make sure the state is not getting cheated. It is my guess the state audit doesn't really try to figure out if the players are getting cheated.
I do agree with you that most tribal casinos are completely legit, and it is only a few that cast a bad light on all tribal casinos, but this case does show at least one of the potential pitfalls of gaming on tribal lands.
Yah the state loves to gets its hands on the revenue. In our case they do look at other areas but I will admit that it really depends on who they send. One crew was darn thorough but a crew several years back were not quite so good. In general they do a decent job I think. I know they are definitely looking at game play from the documents they request. They also look into other areas such as Title 31, underage drinking and exclusion lists. The external independent audit definitely is a lot more though. The state will take a couple days to a week whereas the externals will be here for two weeks at a time and usually twice a year.
Thank you for your last comment. I follow several boards and the negativity toward tribal casinos can be pretty depressing at times. I cannot speak for all auditors and gaming commission members, but for the most part the ones I have met take their jobs very seriously and in general try to be as fair and impartial as possible. From my experience the greatest issue has not been unfair/gaffed games so much as the politics behind the scenes between the councils and the gaming commissions.
Quote: kewljI disagree, BBB. No offense, to waasnoday. I appreciate his insight, but he is mostly talking about financial audits and oversight, where we are concerned with no oversight as far as an agency like a casino commission that handles complaints and hopefully takes a serious look at things like cheating. In the case of Indian casinos, they have such a agency usually, by whatever name they want to assign it, but it's basically a case of the fox looking after the hen house. You are not getting any kind of impartial oversight, monitoring or investigation.
No offense taken kewlj, I totally understand your concern. I think you may begin to see a more active role by the NIGC in oversight of tribal casinos. There has been some movement by congress asking for this and I am waiting to see the results of the GAO audit of the NIGC. Some tribes like mine would welcome that in hopes it would help to dismiss some of the public fears. That is not the opinion all tribes though so we will most likely see some fight against what many tribes see as federal encroachment. Personally I would love to see some sort of public dispute system in place at the NIGC level.
Thank you BBB for the comment. I know the people are generally unaware of the regulatory structure behind tribal casinos and hope I can at least shed some light occasionally.
http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-15-355
Maybe more skepticism is in order. Especially after the almost similar case of the Atlantic City 14 at the Golden Nugget, part of a large casino chain based in Las Vegas. To quote the esteemed Dr. Eliot Jacobson for a couple of grafs, including the judge's opinion:Quote: vendman1I've never suspected a land based casino of cheating or shaving the rules in any way.
"Up until the Phil Ivey vs. Crockford’s case was resolved last October, it would have been reasonable to assume that if the Atlantic City 14 were legally seated at the table, playing by the rules and conditions offered by the casino, using the cards and other equipment provided by the casino, then an implicit contract had been made and they should be able to keep any money they won. But the final ruling in the Ivey/Crockford’s case changed everything. What Justice John Mitting ruled was that,
“It was not simply taking advantage of error on her (the dealer’s) part or an anomaly practiced by the casino for which he (Ivey) was not responsible. He was doing it in circumstances where he knew that she and her superiors did not know the consequences of what she had done at his instigation. This is, in my view, cheating for the purpose of civil law.”
This was a precedent setting ruling. Players could be found to have cheated (in a civil sense) at gambling even though they were playing by the policies and procedures set by the house, using the cards and equipment supplied by the house, and did not consider what they were doing to be cheating at the game. Justice Mitting’s argument was at once both stunning and reasonable. It was stunning that Mitting did not hold Crockford’s accountable for the deficiencies in their operations. It was reasonable when considered in the context of cheating at social games like chess and bridge."
But I find the title of the article is very misleading. DISMISS.
It seems to imply that the case has no merit.
This has nothing to do with the merit of the case and is a mute point.
This is a case of jurisdiction. The case is the same if it had happen in Canada or Mexico.
The US judge has no say or jurisdiction on this case in the sovereign nation of native Americans.
The outcome of the case in England has also little credence in a similar case in NJ, USA. Laws are written differently and judges interpret the same laws differently.
Quote: Deck007
But I find the title of the article is very misleading. DISMISS.
It seems to imply that the case has no merit.
This has nothing to do with the merit of the case and is a mute point.
This is a case of jurisdiction.
Deck,
Apparently, the most recent court decision confirms exactly your comment:
https://news.worldcasinodirectory.com/chinese-trio-lose-appeal-against-foxwood-resorts-casino-confiscation-35654
Sure would be nice if there was a higher-level oversight review process when Indian casinos lie, cheat, or steal. (But, then again, those who took their land did all that and more. Filthy pots shouldn't point to dirty pans.)
Quote: LuckyPhowSure would be nice if there was a higher-level oversight review process when Indian casinos lie, cheat, or steal. (But, then again, those who took their land did all that and more. Filthy pots shouldn't point to dirty pans.)
Their ancestors got screwed many generations ago: the current crop of Indians are full-fledged American citizens.
Same thing with the nattering nabobs of niggativity at BLM demanding "reparations" to compensate for their ancestors being slaves.
That was then; this is now.
Quote: MrVnattering nabobs of niggativity
Quoting in case you delete this.
Note to the moderators: the Flag button doesn't exist in the mobile version.
ETA: Looks like it doesn't exist in the web version either. I must have missed the memo.
Quote: DeucekiesQuoting in case you delete this.
Why would I want to delete it?
I thought it was pretty clever, not to mention apt.
No rule was violated that I can see.
I have as much of a problem with the notion of Indian sovereign immunity as I do with all the BLM nonsense, particularly the demand now being pressed for "reparations."
Two groups angling to get something for nothing, based upon the notion of "white mans' guilt."
Bah!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4qR5tRwvuasQuote: MrVWhy would I want to delete it?
I thought it was pretty clever, not to mention apt.
No rule was violated that I can see.
I have as much of a problem with the notion of Indian sovereign immunity as I do with all the BLM nonsense, particularly the demand now being pressed for "reparations."
Two groups angling to get something for nothing, based upon the notion of "white mans' guilt."
Bah!
Quote: MrVTheir ancestors got screwed many generations ago: the current crop of Indians are full-fledged American citizens.
Same thing with the nattering nabobs of niggativity at BLM demanding "reparations" to compensate for their ancestors being slaves.
That was then; this is now.
Quote: MrVWhy would I want to delete it?
I thought it was pretty clever, not to mention apt.
No rule was violated that I can see.
I have as much of a problem with the notion of Indian sovereign immunity as I do with all the BLM nonsense, particularly the demand now being pressed for "reparations."
Two groups angling to get something for nothing, based upon the notion of "white mans' guilt."
Bah!
Yeah. Deliberately changing a great quote into a racial slur is not acceptable, and since you didn't just have your fun and slink away with a "typo" excuse, but "defended" it for those too ignorant to get it the first time, have 7 for contempt of court, councilor. See the baliff. <smak> court adjourned.
Yeah. You can't ban me, fatty. You are a fat, ugly, corrupt, power-hungry, slob and you can shove my membership and your political correctness up your ass.Quote: beachbumbabsYeah. Deliberately changing a great quote into a racial slur is not acceptable, and since you didn't just have your fun and slink away with a "typo" excuse, but "defended" it for those too ignorant to get it the first time, have 7 for contempt of court, councilor. See the baliff. <smak> court adjourned.
Bah!
I'm not a fan of political correctness gone wild either, but I don't think avoiding words like the N word is too much to ask.
MrV has nearly 5000 posts over six years with no suspensions or issues. I don't know what's happening here, but I'd hate to see MrV leave the board in this fashion. I hope this is something that can be discussed and settled behind the scenes.
.Quote: MrV2Yeah. You can't ban me, fatty. You are a fat, ugly, corrupt, power-hungry, slob and you can shove my membership and your political correctness up your ass.
Bah!
You have been a long time valuable member. Why implode? I will miss you.....
