determining class 2 from class 3 slots... HELP!
This casinos slots seem to be pretty "tight" and love to "tease". I have read so much about slots in the last year that i keep playing at TSR KNOWING it is just luck.... until i came across(10minutes ago) an article that talks of class 2 slots not being so random! Which would make a lot of sense why i just witnessed a woman drop 5500.00 on a .50 keno machine and won less than 100.
HOW CAN I DETERMINE if my casino is using class 2 or class 3 or a combination of both? Who do i ask? What do i look for?
Quote: qwertydgafI am a frequent player at Casino Arizona Talking Stick Resort. I have been playing slots @TSR for about a year. I did well during 4th quarter of '14. I starter to almost recognize a for sure losing machine pretty quickly. Sadly, can not recognize the winners at all =)
This casinos slots seem to be pretty "tight" and love to "tease". I have read so much about slots in the last year that i keep playing at TSR KNOWING it is just luck.... until i came across(10minutes ago) an article that talks of class 2 slots not being so random! Which would make a lot of sense why i just witnessed a woman drop 5500.00 on a .50 keno machine and won less than 100.
HOW CAN I DETERMINE if my casino is using class 2 or class 3 or a combination of both? Who do i ask? What do i look for?
I would ask at the rewards center/player's club. They should tell you (they tell me when I ask in a new state/jurisdiction). It's usually not up to the casino; it's up to the state or other regulatory authority's compact with the state. This is a good article on how it works in general; it's a federal law that governs the terms of what the NA casinos are allowed to offer and what the states have to let them do, but it's still negotiated state by state. The rule of thumb is, if a class of gaming is allowed anywhere in the state for any purpose, the NA casinos can offer the same class of games. Class II are player-banked, with the casino taking some kind of rake. Class III allows casinos to offer house-banked games. That's just a very simple explanation, but the Class is considered public information, so they should tell you if you ask.
Edit: This is a gov't-issued blank compact application that defines and includes Class I, II, and III gaming for the state of AZ, so I guess it depends on what level the tribe wants to offer/qualify for there.
teddys did a pretty good review on Phoenix-area casinos, and specifically mentioned that they can offer Class II and Class III gaming (though no true craps or roulette). Doesn't mean the Talking Stick doesn't have a mix of II and III slots, but it's a start to know that much.
It's been my experience that Class II slots MUST in some way display a link or reference to the bingo game they're based on, even if it's a really small icon or something. The machine probably shows it somewhere in the instructions/pays button as well (that most people don't use).
Quote: beachbumbabsIt's been my experience that Class II slots MUST in some way display a link or reference to the bingo game they're based on, even if it's a really small icon or something. The machine probably shows it somewhere in the instructions/pays button as well (that most people don't use).
I agree. A class II slot should have a little bingo card in the corner of the screen. Often there is a button that says "daub" instead of "spin." If you have any doubt, it is probably class III.
Quote: qwertydgafWhat do i look for?
Does the "play" button say "play", or "play/daub"?
If you scroll through all (and I do mean ALL) the help and paytable displays, does it list a bingo paytable?
Does the front of the place mention that it's a "Class II gaming facility"?
Does the machine have a display of a bingo card on it? (Sometimes - particularly on the "keno" machines, it's mostly hidden - I've seen it on the topmost video screen, up by the slot-topper blinking light sign)
Is there a sticker on the machine that says (something like) "Prizes awarded based on bingo play"?
... so then, it might be Class III.
... And ask at the player's club booth if they have any Class II machines, and how you'd tell the difference.
I've played both Class III and Class II machines; they're both vaguely similar in that you stick money in, whack the button, and maybe get some money back. My subjective observations say that Class II behaves quite differently as the number of other players changes; sometimes better, sometimes not.
Salt River Pima-Maricopa Indian
Community
Casino Arizona & Talking Stick Resort
https://gaming.az.gov/sites/default/files/documents/files/2014%20Annual%20Report%20FINAL.pdf
Page 24 indicates that the casinos have operated Class III gaming since 1993, when the first compact went into effect. All casinos wishing to offer Class III Gaming must have a compact with the State of Arizona, and the Casino Nevada and Talking Stick Resort is run by the Salt River Pima-Maricopa Indian Community, who have such a compact.
There are sixteen tribes with casinos and six tribes that do not have casinos, but have slot machine rights that can be leased to other tribes, only the Hopi tribe does not have a compact.
In fact, the Pima-Maricopa Indian Community (see pages 24 & 25) had, perhaps, the hardest battle to finally get a compact. It spanned multiple lawsuits, a general election initiative (Pima-Maricopa was successful) and then even more lawsuits over a ridiculous span of three years. I'm sure there was a reason that Arizona made it so difficult for this tribe, but don't care enough to look further into it, and ultimately, the reason must have been ridiculous because the State was eventually forced to negotiate a compact with them.
Moreover, State of Arizona law, pursuant to the compacts, dictates minimum theoretical payouts for slot machines at 80%, video poker at 83% and keno at 75%. (See Link 1)
Although BBB's link does allow for both Class II and Class III machines, I've called the casino and they've not called back, yet. I'll try again tomorrow.
Maybe Az. didn't want competition for their scratch off tickets?Quote: Mission146In fact, the Pima-Maricopa Indian Community (see pages 24 & 25) had, perhaps, the hardest battle to finally get a compact. It spanned multiple lawsuits, a general election initiative (Pima-Maricopa was successful) and then even more lawsuits over a ridiculous span of three years. I'm sure there was a reason that Arizona made it so difficult for this tribe, but don't care enough to look further into it, and ultimately, the reason must have been ridiculous because the State was eventually forced to negotiate a compact with them.
Could be Zcore knows something about this?
Thanks for putting this info out, I am going to be in the Phoenix area in the next few weeks.
Quote: qwertydgafl i came across(10minutes ago) an article that talks of class 2 slots not being so random!
that exclamation point suggests the article would have you believe class 2 is better. That is the opposite of the usual opinion, so I would take what it says with a grain of salt.
I suppose it is possible there are times, depending on number of players, when class II treats you as well or even better. The one thing you can say for sure is that it is idiotic to think you are playing a game of skill like video poker only to realize you are playing on a class II. Players dislike that for sure.
I wouldn't mind seeing that article if it is a link you can post.
Quote: petroglyphMaybe Az. didn't want competition for their scratch off tickets?
Could be Zcore knows something about this?
Thanks for putting this info out, I am going to be in the Phoenix area in the next few weeks.
As far as I know every slot in Casino Arizona is Class III. Same as at my Casino. The Compact does allow for some minimal use of Class II slots, but I don't know of any Tribe that is using them.
ZCore13
Quote: qwertydgafI am a frequent player at Casino Arizona Talking Stick Resort. I have been playing slots @TSR for about a year. I did well during 4th quarter of '14. I starter to almost recognize a for sure losing machine pretty quickly. Sadly, can not recognize the winners at all =)
This casinos slots seem to be pretty "tight" and love to "tease". I have read so much about slots in the last year that i keep playing at TSR KNOWING it is just luck.... until i came across(10minutes ago) an article that talks of class 2 slots not being so random! Which would make a lot of sense why i just witnessed a woman drop 5500.00 on a .50 keno machine and won less than 100.
HOW CAN I DETERMINE if my casino is using class 2 or class 3 or a combination of both? Who do i ask? What do i look for?
If you are looking for a better gamble and would like to get comps I would highly recommend you keep driving east of Talking Stick to Fort Mcdowell, the games are much looser and they are far more generous with comps.
Quote: Zcore13As far as I know every slot in Casino Arizona is Class III. Same as at my Casino. The Compact does allow for some minimal use of Class II slots, but I don't know of any Tribe that is using them.
ZCore13
Most jurisdictions that allow both Class 2 & 3 have a limit on how many Class 3 devices you can operate at each casino. They usually don't operate class 2 if the number of machines they have is less than the class 3 limit. If they want to add more than the class 3 limit they will add class 2 machines.
Quote: rsactuaryNot to hijack the thread... but it seems like a good place to ask.... What are the characteristics of a Class I machine? I've googled and can't seem to find an explanation anywhere.
According to Title 25, Section 2703(6) of the United States Code:
The term "class I gaming" means social games solely for prizes of minimal value or traditional forms of Indian gaming engaged in by individuals as a part of, or in connection with, tribal ceremonies or celebrations.
Based on that, if there is such a thing as a "Class I machine," I don't think it pays out anything.
Quote: ThatDonGuyAccording to Title 25, Section 2703(6) of the United States Code:
The term "class I gaming" means social games solely for prizes of minimal value or traditional forms of Indian gaming engaged in by individuals as a part of, or in connection with, tribal ceremonies or celebrations.
Based on that, if there is such a thing as a "Class I machine," I don't think it pays out anything.
Thanks for that.. not sure why I couldn't find it.
So would one of those claw machines count as Class I, or carnival games?
Quote: rsactuarySo would one of those claw machines count as Class I, or carnival games?
or a church cake walk?
Quote: rsactuaryQuote: ThatDonGuyAccording to Title 25, Section 2703(6) of the United States Code:
The term "class I gaming" means social games solely for prizes of minimal value or traditional forms of Indian gaming engaged in by individuals as a part of, or in connection with, tribal ceremonies or celebrations.
Based on that, if there is such a thing as a "Class I machine," I don't think it pays out anything.
Thanks for that.. not sure why I couldn't find it.
Because this is the United States Code we're talking about. For example, would you expect the prohibition on tribal casinos to have sports books except in states where they are otherwise allowed to be located under "Judicial Procedure / Particular Proceedings"? (Title 28, Section 3704)
Quote: DRichMost jurisdictions that allow both Class 2 & 3 have a limit on how many Class 3 devices you can operate at each casino. They usually don't operate class 2 if the number of machines they have is less than the class 3 limit. If they want to add more than the class 3 limit they will add class 2 machines.
In Arizona the amount of Class III machines is based on the size of the Tribe with a maximum of 1,301 slots for any one Casino. The Tribe I work for, for example, is very small. I think we have about 140 or so Tribal Members. We have 566 Class III slot machines. I believe we are allowed 40 Class II machines as well, but we do not use them at this time. There is some dispute if the Class II machines can really be limited and this may be tested at some point, but for now that is the theoretical limit.
Almost anytime the Tribes contest something and it ends up going to Court, the Tribes win. There has been ongoing litigation for a Casino in Glendale for the last 3 years or so. The Governor said no, there were court cases and appeals and the Tribe won every one of them. Now the Gaming Commission says no (after the Casino has already broke ground) and that will be going to court. I expect the Tribe to win this one as well. The Sovereign Nation designation usually wins over the States wishes.
ZCore13
Quote: qwertydgafuntil i came across(10minutes ago) an article that talks of class 2 slots not being so random! Which would make a lot of sense why i just witnessed a woman drop 5500.00 on a .50 keno machine and won less than 100.
I'm amused at the thought of a Class II keno machine. You're still drawing virtual bingo balls in either game. I know the prize distribution can be different because of Class II rules...but I digress.
The best thing they do there, and different from all other OK casinos to my knowledge, is if you sign up for their player card (free) and play rated, THEY pay the state-mandatory .50/hand fee for you (they track it with dummy chips in the dealer's tray). So your EV on the table games is not diminished by the cost of the hands like all other OK casinos.
Quote: Zcore13In Arizona the amount of Class III machines is based on the size of the Tribe with a maximum of 1,301 slots for any one Casino. The Tribe I work for, for example, is very small. I think we have about 140 or so Tribal Members. We have 566 Class III slot machines. I believe we are allowed 40 Class II machines as well, but we do not use them at this time. There is some dispute if the Class II machines can really be limited and this may be tested at some point, but for now that is the theoretical limit.
Almost anytime the Tribes contest something and it ends up going to Court, the Tribes win. There has been ongoing litigation for a Casino in Glendale for the last 3 years or so. The Governor said no, there were court cases and appeals and the Tribe won every one of them. Now the Gaming Commission says no (after the Casino has already broke ground) and that will be going to court. I expect the Tribe to win this one as well. The Sovereign Nation designation usually wins over the States wishes.
ZCore13
Depends on the level of the court. At the Supreme Court level the tribes have won one case in the last ten. The Bay Mills decision was the last win and even that wasn't really a total win. Court basically said the state could not sue the tribe but could sue the individual members. I will say the Tohono O'odham Nation has had one heck of a winning court record regarding their attempt to open a casino in Glendale though. What a convoluted path that has been.
Quote: beachbumbabsI will say that in OK, at Downstream Casino, a tribal resort I visited a couple weeks ago, it was all Class II slots. And I killed both the VP and the regular slots, much better than my usual returns, especially the VP. (I posted a couple of the better VP wins in the "Not Quite a Royal" thread). I owe them a larger write-up, because they were excellent in all respects.
The best thing they do there, and different from all other OK casinos to my knowledge, is if you sign up for their player card (free) and play rated, THEY pay the state-mandatory .50/hand fee for you (they track it with dummy chips in the dealer's tray). So your EV on the table games is not diminished by the cost of the hands like all other OK casinos.
Pretty sure Downstream and many other OK casinos offer Class III slots/VP (legal with a state compact), otherwise VPFree2 needs to remove their listings...
Quote: beachbumbabsI will say that in OK, at Downstream Casino, a tribal resort I visited a couple weeks ago, it was all Class II slots. And I killed both the VP and the regular slots, much better than my usual returns, especially the VP. (I posted a couple of the better VP wins in the "Not Quite a Royal" thread).
How do I tell if a vp machine is a class II or III machine? It is just the pays is it not, like 9/6? Other than that I don't know what to look for. On the slots does it say somewhere on the info screen which class it is, and what is more player friendly, II or III?
TIA
Quote: petroglyphHow do I tell if a vp machine is a class II or III machine? It is just the pays is it not, like 9/6? Other than that I don't know what to look for. On the slots does it say somewhere on the info screen which class it is, and what is more player friendly, II or III?
A class II video poker machine, if there were such a thing, must have a predestined outcome. You wouldn't even be able to deliberately lose. For example, let's say the game predestined you to get a royal and gave you four to a royal and a junk card on the deal, think you would toss the junk card and it would give you the fifth card to the royal. If you held everything, which would normally win nothing, then a fairy or something would magically turn the junk card to whatever card you needed for the royal.
Quote: WizardA class II video poker machine, if there were such a thing, must have a predestined outcome. You wouldn't even be able to deliberately lose. For example, let's say the game predestined you to get a royal and gave you four to a royal and a junk card on the deal, think you would toss the junk card and it would give you the fifth card to the royal. If you held everything, which would normally win nothing, then a fairy or something would magically turn the junk card to whatever card you needed for the royal.
Thanks Mike.
Fairlys, golden monkeys, genies, leprechauns.... same things that help system players in baccarat.Quote: WizardA class II video poker machine, if there were such a thing, must have a predestined outcome. You wouldn't even be able to deliberately lose. For example, let's say the game predestined you to get a royal and gave you four to a royal and a junk card on the deal, think you would toss the junk card and it would give you the fifth card to the royal. If you held everything, which would normally win nothing, then a fairy or something would magically turn the junk card to whatever card you needed for the royal.
Quote: Wizarda fairy or something would magically turn the junk card to whatever card you needed for the royal.
In the Washington tribal casinos I've seen (Muckleshoot and Red Wind, specifically), there's a spinner that awards a bonus card. So deceptive.
Quote: AxelWolfFairlys, golden monkeys, genies, leprechauns.... same things that help system players in baccarat.
Lol
My friend won a drawing for $10,000 at Casino AZ McKellips. Couldn't believe it. He lived five minutes from the casino and he had friends hanging out at the casino all day, then drove over when they called his name.Quote: qwertydgafI really appreciate everyones feed back. With that knowledge shared, i have determined that TSR does not use any class 2 slot machines. But my good lord are they tight! Clearly i do not play slots to try and make rent since I have dumped sooo much money into this place. But it would be nice to get a return at some point. Even if the rerurn was in form of a drawing...or a car. I see i have 10 thousand entries in most the drawings and usually they draw 5-10 winners(unless car giveaway) yet i cant get my name picked to save my life. I visit most drawings and i always ask what the percentage is of people checked in compared to people entered. Always less than 5% and i cant get drawn?? Rigged? Tight slots.... ugh at least they let me drink and eat on them whenever. Maybe time for a new place
