darkoz
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July 12th, 2014 at 9:59:51 AM permalink
Its todays headlines in AC. Trump Plaza is supposed to be handing out the 60 day notices to employees next week.

That makes Revel, Showboat and Trump Plaza as almost certainly closing by end of this summer.
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GWAE
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July 12th, 2014 at 10:06:53 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Its todays headlines in AC. Trump Plaza is supposed to be handing out the 60 day notices to employees next week.

That makes Revel, Showboat and Trump Plaza as almost certainly closing by end of this summer.



this is already being discussed in the AC thread
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SanchoPanza
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July 12th, 2014 at 10:07:34 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Its todays headlines in AC. Trump Plaza is supposed to be handing out the 60 day notices to employees next week. That makes Revel, Showboat and Trump Plaza as almost certainly closing by end of this summer.

The owners of the Trump Plaza casino in Atlantic City say they expect to shut it down in mid-September. Trump Entertainment Resorts tells The Associated Press on Saturday that no final decision has been made yet on the boardwalk casino. But the company says it expects the casino to close its doors Sept. 16.

"It's a disaster," state Sen. Jim Whelan, D-Atlantic, who first reported the rumored closing Friday. "This is going to impact all sectors of the economy, from big stores to real estate values and on and on." Local 54 President Bob McDevitt said more than 7,000 workers may lose their jobs if all the announced closings come to pass, or about one in four Atlantic City casino workers. acpress
GWAE
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July 12th, 2014 at 10:13:27 AM permalink
I am starting to think that there is a conspiracy among the casinos. If they all announce that they will close then maybe the state will step in with some concessions?

I am sure TP could find a buyer for the property, even if it were only a few million. In that case why wouldn't they take a small amount of money since a small amount of money > $0
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SanchoPanza
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July 12th, 2014 at 10:27:37 AM permalink
Quote: GWAE

I am starting to think that there is a conspiracy among the casinos. If they all announce that they will close then maybe the state will step in with some concessions?

Don't hold your breath. The state has already shamelessly reneged on major commitments to its pension funds.
98Clubs
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July 12th, 2014 at 11:26:12 AM permalink
It smells more like monopolistic practices, aside from the dung-heap in Summer.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
onenickelmiracle
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July 12th, 2014 at 2:32:43 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

I am starting to think that there is a conspiracy among the casinos. If they all announce that they will close then maybe the state will step in with some concessions?

I am sure TP could find a buyer for the property, even if it were only a few million. In that case why wouldn't they take a small amount of money since a small amount of money > $0

Possible there is some kind of strategy, but I am coming up empty seeing it. Cutting the number of casinos hurts the smallest the most since they would seem to benefit the most from foot traffic from bigger casinos. You would think they would want to see what market share they could gain before offing themselves.

There might be a small chance some kind of hedge fund might pay them to close to win a bet. I have read of casinos defaulting intentionally on loans to win these bets, but I don't know if they could get into this and make a buck or if it even makes sense.
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darkoz
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July 12th, 2014 at 5:37:44 PM permalink
I think they are just downsizing.

Trump also has the Trump Taj Mahal. So the close the Plaza, save fifty percent of their operating costs and send all their Plaza patrons with their comps over to the Taj.

Showboat is owned by the same people who have Caesars, Harrah's and Bally's so they save 25% of their operating costs, send their showboat patrons over to the other three.

Only Revel is really bad for the execs. That one is just failing period.
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Buzzard
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July 12th, 2014 at 5:45:18 PM permalink
No major conspiracy. You lose 70-80 percent of your customer base and shit like this has to happen.
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Wizard
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July 12th, 2014 at 5:55:02 PM permalink
I say let the free market runs its course and stand by and let the weaker properties die. Supply simply exceeds demand.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
sodawater
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July 12th, 2014 at 6:07:15 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I say let the free market runs its course and stand by and let the weaker properties die. Supply simply exceeds demand.



That's well and good in theory, but this is reality. People are losing jobs; families will lose homes. AC is on its way to becoming another Detroit. South Jersey has no other industry to absorb the tens of thousands of jobs that will be lost, and the state has nowhere else to get all the tax revenue the AC casinos provided.

You could say let the free market reign but there should be limits. In a purely capitalist system, the logical course is one winner. One corporation with all the money, resources, jobs, products, and power. The reason this is the logical endgame of capitalism is the simple fact that it's much easier to make money if you already have money.

Do we want a society dominated by one Umbrella Corp., its shareholders and executives ruling the country like a feudal oligarchy?

Or do we want a society that redistributes wealth, plans its economy to some degree, and makes sure there is a safety net for "economic losers."

All you have to do is look at the quality of life in partially socialist Europe and Scandinavia to see which system works best for most people.

A socialist country like Germany destroys the USA in every quality of life measure we have: life expectancy, literacy, infant mortality, depression rate, crime rate, suicide rate, gun violence rate, etc etc etc.

The one thing the USA has over socialist Germany is that if you are one of the very lucky few who do get rich, you're set. You live like a king. You have power unimaginable.

But that doesn't maximize happiness for the greatest number of people. Billionaires who store up millions of lifetimes' worth of consumption in their bank accounts are never going to use that money to its fullest.

The difference between $10,000 and $20,000 a year is a HELL of a lot bigger than the difference between $1.11 million and $1.12 million per year.

TL, DR: Wealth has diminishing utility and thus to maximize its utility it should be redistributed fairly. The rich stand on the shoulders of society to create their wealth. Their employees use our roads, our schools, our hospitals. They can afford to give a little back.
Lemieux66
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July 12th, 2014 at 6:08:50 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I say let the free market runs its course and stand by and let the weaker properties die. Supply simply exceeds demand.



They cut out the garbage from the boardwalk. The remaining casinos all have some kind of purpose to me though. Some more than others.
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Boz
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July 12th, 2014 at 6:13:24 PM permalink
Quote: sodawater

That's well and good in theory, but this is reality. People are losing jobs; families will lose homes. AC is on its way to becoming another Detroit. South Jersey has no other industry to absorb the tens of thousands of jobs that will be lost, and the state has nowhere else to get all the tax revenue the AC casinos provided.

You could say let the free market reign but there should be limits. In a purely capitalist system, the logical course is one winner. One corporation with all the money, resources, jobs, products, and power. The reason this is the logical endgame of capitalism is the simple fact that it's much easier to make money if you already have money.

Do we want a society dominated by one Umbrella Corp., its shareholders and executives ruling the country like a feudal oligarchy?

Or do we want a society that redistributes wealth, plans its economy to some degree, and makes sure there is a safety net for "economic losers."

All you have to do is look at the quality of life in partially socialist Europe and Scandinavia to see which system works best for most people.

A socialist country like Germany destroys the USA in every quality of life measure we have: life expectancy, literacy, infant mortality, depression rate, crime rate, suicide rate, gun violence rate, etc etc etc.

The one thing the USA has over socialist Germany is that if you are one of the very lucky few who do get rich, you're set. You live like a king. You have power unimaginable.

But that doesn't maximize happiness for the greatest number of people. Billionaires who store up millions of lifetimes' worth of consumption in their bank accounts are never going to use that money to its fullest.

The difference between $10,000 and $20,000 a year is a HELL of a lot bigger than the difference between $1.11 million and $1.12 million per year.

TL, DR: Wealth has diminishing utility and thus to maximize its utility it should be redistributed fairly. The rich stand on the shoulders of society to create their wealth. Their employees use our roads, our schools, our hospitals. They can afford to give a little back.




Did I just visit the Huffington Post by mistake? The only thing Germany has better than us is a soccer team, but feel free to move there if you don't like the Free system most of us love.
Wizard
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July 12th, 2014 at 6:26:11 PM permalink
Quote: sodawater

That's well and good in theory, but this is reality. People are losing jobs; families will lose homes. AC is on its way to becoming another Detroit. South Jersey has no other industry to absorb the tens of thousands of jobs that will be lost, and the state has nowhere else to get all the tax revenue the AC casinos provided.



Tough! Times change. The market basket changes. You can't ignore the fact that casinos have popped up all over the place in Delaware, Maryland, Pennsylvania, and New York. All of them have poached the customer base of AC. You can either face that reality and let a few weak properties go or waste taxpayer money with subsidies so nobody will lose a job.

What would have been your position around 1920 when the buggy whip companies were singing the blues and were asking the government for subsidies so that nobody would lose a job and buggy whip towns wouldn't risk urban blight?

Quote:

You could say let the free market reign but there should be limits. In a purely capitalist system, the logical course is one winner. One corporation with all the money, resources, jobs, products, and power. The reason this is the logical endgame of capitalism is the simple fact that it's much easier to make money if you already have money.



I fully agree there have to be limits. However, I don't see letting a few properties in AC die off leading to a single-company monopoly of everything.

I'll try to address your other points later, if nobody else says what I intend to say.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
onenickelmiracle
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July 12th, 2014 at 6:57:38 PM permalink
Wal Mart could make the worst casinos in Atlantic City the best performing. No such thing as the free market when you talk about casinos.
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Daddydoc
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July 12th, 2014 at 8:22:45 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

No such thing as the free market when you talk about casinos.



How do you figure? These businesses are businesses like any other. Free market competition (which doesn't really exist anyway in the AC casino market) provides the best way to get the best consumer experience in any business. If there is a niche to be exploited that is not being addressed by the "big boys" then a new competitor can move into that niche and address the consumer's needs, absent government interference of course. There are many complaints in this forum regarding TotalRewards and how Caesars is unresponsive to customer complaints. Would it not be better to have a smaller company step in and offer a service that is not currently offered? Now it may be that it is not economically feasible to offer that service (a better rewards program in this example), but government support of failing business models and limiting competition certainly does not help build a successful business model.

Quote: sodawater

Do we want a society dominated by one Umbrella Corp., its shareholders and executives ruling the country like a feudal oligarchy?



The only way this can happen is with the willful cooperation of government, usually due to bribes offered by said corporations or their PACs or flunkies. In a truly free market the poor treatment of customers and employees will open an opportunity for a competitor, again, absent government interference.
If government is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.
Daddydoc
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July 12th, 2014 at 8:31:21 PM permalink
Quote: sodawater

That's well and good in theory, but this is reality. People are losing jobs; families will lose homes. AC is on its way to becoming another Detroit. South Jersey has no other industry to absorb the tens of thousands of jobs that will be lost, and the state has nowhere else to get all the tax revenue the AC casinos provided.



Don't mean to keep bashing you, but I can't help addressing these points. People may lose jobs, but there should be other jobs available. Will they be in the same town, or the same state, or the same career? I don't know, but nobody has a right to a career, or to a job in the city in which they choose to live simply because they want to have it.

AC may very well be on the way to becoming another Detroit. The politics of their city and state governments have a lot in common and have much more (everything?) to do with the deterioration. The success or failure of a particular enterprise or business sector has much less to do with whether the city is becoming a wasteland, and is often the result of political interference. You say that the state has "nowhere else" to get the tax revenue; they are actually losing less if they stop giving money to a money losing enterprise. Would the state of NJ be better off or worse off if Revel had not received any money from the state treasury?
If government is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.
rdw4potus
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July 12th, 2014 at 8:33:44 PM permalink
Quote: Daddydoc

Quote: sodawater

That's well and good in theory, but this is reality. People are losing jobs; families will lose homes. AC is on its way to becoming another Detroit. South Jersey has no other industry to absorb the tens of thousands of jobs that will be lost, and the state has nowhere else to get all the tax revenue the AC casinos provided.



Don't mean to keep bashing you, but I can't help addressing these points. People may lose jobs, but there should be other jobs available. Will they be in the same town, or the same state, or the same career? I don't know, but nobody has a right to a career, or to a job in the city in which they choose to live simply because they want to have it.



For example, maybe these dealers at aging and crappy Atlantic City casinos should have figured out long before now that getting a job at a shiny new casino in Pennsylvania was a good idea?
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
Buzzard
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July 12th, 2014 at 8:45:00 PM permalink
I was involved with plant closing and downsizing at at&t. Used to tell people to take the first life boat. But most waited for a better one, which more often than not never came.
Who could not have seen this coming ?

Treat your customers like shit, then lose your advantage, and gee whiz, where did all the suckers go ?
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
djatc
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July 12th, 2014 at 8:48:47 PM permalink
AC had a good run, but the competitive advantage is now gone. I dunno why anyone would go out there, I heard the casinos don't offer anything good and BJ rules are crappy when you can go right next door to Philly for better games.
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Daddydoc
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July 12th, 2014 at 8:57:04 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

AC had a good run, but the competitive advantage is now gone. I dunno why anyone would go out there



Well, Borgata is still a reasonably nice casino not too far from me (though I have not been to Sands Bethlehem), and is still offering free rooms for not a lot of play. I was in AC in April, and took a walk through several of the boardwalk casinos. Most of them look like they've been ridden hard and put away wet, excepting Revel which was as raucous as a funeral parlor.
If government is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.
bigfoot66
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July 12th, 2014 at 9:41:39 PM permalink
Quote: sodawater

That's well and good in theory, but this is reality. People are losing jobs; families will lose homes. AC is on its way to becoming another Detroit. South Jersey has no other industry to absorb the tens of thousands of jobs that will be lost, and the state has nowhere else to get all the tax revenue the AC casinos provided.

You could say let the free market reign but there should be limits. In a purely capitalist system, the logical course is one winner. One corporation with all the money, resources, jobs, products, and power. The reason this is the logical endgame of capitalism is the simple fact that it's much easier to make money if you already have money.

Do we want a society dominated by one Umbrella Corp., its shareholders and executives ruling the country like a feudal oligarchy?

Or do we want a society that redistributes wealth, plans its economy to some degree, and makes sure there is a safety net for "economic losers."

All you have to do is look at the quality of life in partially socialist Europe and Scandinavia to see which system works best for most people.

A socialist country like Germany destroys the USA in every quality of life measure we have: life expectancy, literacy, infant mortality, depression rate, crime rate, suicide rate, gun violence rate, etc etc etc.

The one thing the USA has over socialist Germany is that if you are one of the very lucky few who do get rich, you're set. You live like a king. You have power unimaginable.

But that doesn't maximize happiness for the greatest number of people. Billionaires who store up millions of lifetimes' worth of consumption in their bank accounts are never going to use that money to its fullest.

The difference between $10,000 and $20,000 a year is a HELL of a lot bigger than the difference between $1.11 million and $1.12 million per year.

TL, DR: Wealth has diminishing utility and thus to maximize its utility it should be redistributed fairly. The rich stand on the shoulders of society to create their wealth. Their employees use our roads, our schools, our hospitals. They can afford to give a little back.



This is mostly crap. Except for the fact in the first sentence where you admit that you're theory is academically indefensible. I like that part.

Statists like to pick and choose their examples. Germany is socialist and they make BMW's! Scandinavia has great welfare programs that work really well! France has socialized medicine and it's better than American medicine! The Brits have socialized higher education and Oxford is the finest university in the world!

All of this is true but it's totally misleading. Socialists systems produce the BMW and the cars from Yugo. The Scandanavians have thrived with a robust welfare state, native Americans did not do quite as well (until the casinos). The French health system is great but many Canadians are on a waiting list to see a primary care physician for basic medical services or wait years for needed surgery. Let's compare some of the inner city Los Angeles schools to even the worst catholic elementary schools.

God help you if you find yourself in the workers paradise known as North Korea.

The answer is not that life is always wonderful with rainbow dreams in a free system. We claim only that, for any given situation, a freer market with less government intervention is better than one with more intervention. Yes it is difficult when demand changes and thousands of card dealers find themselves unemployed but they need to be released to learn new skills and contribute to society in a new form. Yes it is a terribly painful and difficult situation for those impacted, I don't mean to minimize their situation. But the truth is that their skill is simply not needed anymore in that area, we need then elsewhere.

Get ready for the same thing to happen soon as the google car gets better an better. We will see hundreds of thousands of professional drivers no longer needed, overnight! It will be a very difficult time for those folks but they will need to learn new skills. Just like there used to be coopers, blacksmiths, horse shoers, boot makers, etc. As technology makes these skills obsolete people must evolve. Bailing them out only prolongs the pain.
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SanchoPanza
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July 12th, 2014 at 10:27:54 PM permalink
Quote: sodawater

Do we want a society dominated by one Umbrella Corp., its shareholders and executives ruling the country like a feudal oligarchy? Or do we want a society that redistributes wealth, plans its economy to some degree, and makes sure there is a safety net for "economic losers."

Atlantic City was stupidly conceived and even more stupidly and arrogantly regulated and operated. The several reasons have long been given and gone over in the main Atlantic City thread. It is a classic example of two cronies, governments and companies, in bed with each other and falling all over themselves to grab the poor customers' last pennies. As soon as the first semblances of any competition arose, it was clear that Atlantic City was doomed, especially seeing as how it and the State of New Jersey clung to their obsolete and high-handed treatment of what were mockingly called "guests."
Wizard
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July 13th, 2014 at 7:05:35 AM permalink
Quote: sodawater

Do we want a society dominated by one Umbrella Corp., its shareholders and executives ruling the country like a feudal oligarchy?

Or do we want a society that redistributes wealth, plans its economy to some degree, and makes sure there is a safety net for "economic losers."

All you have to do is look at the quality of life in partially socialist Europe and Scandinavia to see which system works best for most people.



To get back to this, let me say that I have no problems with Germany. Personally, I'd be willing to pay more in taxes to have better schools and free health care like they do there. However, I don't think you can tell me that nobody ever goes out of business in Germany or has to lay off workers. You're going to have to try again if you want to convince me that because people are happier in Germany that the government should subsidize failing casinos in Atlantic City.

Speaking of losing jobs, there are plenty of jobs in health care. In California and Las Vegas we're importing nurses from the Philippines by the thousands because there aren't enough Americans qualified to do the work.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
GWAE
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July 13th, 2014 at 7:15:26 AM permalink
Quote: djatc

AC had a good run, but the competitive advantage is now gone. I dunno why anyone would go out there, I heard the casinos don't offer anything good and BJ rules are crappy when you can go right next door to Philly for better games.



I agree when it comes to gambling. We still make at least 1 trip a year which we are doing in 2 weeks. However, we are going primarily for the beach. I am not sure if there are any other coastal towns where I can get a weeks free stay and free food.
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GWAE
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July 13th, 2014 at 7:18:40 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

To get back to this, let me say that I have no problems with Germany. Personally, I'd be willing to pay more in taxes to have better schools and free health care like they do there. However, I don't think you can tell me that nobody ever goes out of business in Germany or has to lay off workers. You're going to have to try again if you want to convince me that because people are happier in Germany that the government should subsidize failing casinos in Atlantic City.

Speaking of losing jobs, there are plenty of jobs in health care. In California and Las Vegas we're importing nurses from the Philippines by the thousands because there aren't enough Americans qualified to do the work.



Yeah but that is hard work. Us Americans don't want to work hard, we just want things given to us.
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Boz
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July 13th, 2014 at 7:19:42 AM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

I was involved with plant closing and downsizing at at&t. Used to tell people to take the first life boat. But most waited for a better one, which more often than not never came.
Who could not have seen this coming ?

Treat your customers like shit, then lose your advantage, and gee whiz, where did all the suckers go ?



This may be your best post ever. Spot on and tells it like it is. Which usually hurts, but then the truth always does.
Ibeatyouraces
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July 13th, 2014 at 7:19:55 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Boz
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July 13th, 2014 at 7:20:40 AM permalink
Quote: GWAE

Yeah but that is hard work. Us Americans don't want to work hard, we just want things given to us.



See above what I posted above Buzz's post. You hit it.
MrV
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July 13th, 2014 at 8:01:17 AM permalink
AC made hay while the sun shone.

The sun has set.

Keep up, or get out of the way.

And no, AC won't become another Detroit: more apt to compare it to Camden .

AC was almost a Camden anyway, before the mob and the state of NJ brought casinos to town.

Man, I'm sure glad I left NJ in my rear view mirror many years ago.
"What, me worry?"
Wizard
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July 13th, 2014 at 8:04:34 AM permalink
Quote: GWAE

Yeah but that is hard work. Us Americans don't want to work hard, we just want things given to us.



I'd rather have a government-subsidized job to stand at an empty blackjack table too.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
kewlj
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July 13th, 2014 at 8:08:37 AM permalink
It pains me to read through the different AC threads on several different sites. AC was home base for me the first 5 and 1/2 years of my professional BJ career. I began my career with $4300 to my name and by the time I had worn out my welcome and headed west, nearly had a 6 figure BR and have never looked back. AC was a tough place to play blackjack with sub par 8 deck games, with mediocre penetration at best. But if you could develop the skill and PATIENCE to win there, you could win anywhere. I only went back to AC once after I left to look around and see Revel completed, which was half build and stalled during much of my time playing AC, but I will always have a soft spot for AC.

Some of AC's problems were inevitable, as they were bound to go from having a gambling monopoly over the whole eastern half of US, to a smaller share as neighboring states took on casino gambling. But much of it was also mismanagement and bad decisions. I mean they had a huge advantage in the head start that they had and coupled with the Ocean, a good location. They should have been able to build much more of a gambling vacation resort destination. A place that would have been vastly different from the stand alone casinos sprinkled throughout the neighboring states. In stead, they just keep tightening rules and paytables and trying to squeeze more money out of a dwindling customer base. They now look destined to become a second hand 'Reno'. It's a shame, but I still have my memories including a couple pretty tough years at the start.
beachbumbabs
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July 13th, 2014 at 8:27:31 AM permalink
I will never understand why AC didn't invest in buying the entire island (can never remember the spelling..Absecon?) and make the place an amazing resort. It was to their mutual benefit not to have a slum immediately behind the casinos. They could STILL, even at this late date, declare eminent domain and just take it over in exchange for more state revenue from making the investment and building attractions/golf courses/whatever. They have everything else they need to make it a real destination.

Sad. I really enjoyed it there, but I guess it's been 8 years since I was last up.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Daddydoc
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July 13th, 2014 at 8:44:14 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I will never understand why AC didn't invest in buying the entire island (can never remember the spelling..Absecon?) and make the place an amazing resort. It was to their mutual benefit not to have a slum immediately behind the casinos.



I don't know the correct answer, but I suspect that all the licensees wanted waterfront property and nobody was interested in a potentially second rate location without the ocean view. I went to Harrah's when it was new and I was quite young (underage?), and there was nothing else around that part of town other than slums and derelict properties. It was pretty dead at that time, IIRC. And it is "Absecon", you are correct.
If government is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.
MrV
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July 13th, 2014 at 8:44:44 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

It was to their mutual benefit not to have a slum immediately behind the casinos.



Ah, but where would the crack smoking slum denizens go under your scenario?

Politically it might be best to keep them where they are so they only prey upon themselves.

What, move them lock, stock and key to Haddonfield?

They'd have to go somewhere, and fact is, nobody wants them.
"What, me worry?"
Boz
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July 13th, 2014 at 9:00:10 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

Ah, but where would the crack smoking slum denizens go under your scenario?

Politically it might be best to keep them where they are so they only prey upon themselves.

What, move them lock, stock and key to Haddonfield?

They'd have to go somewhere, and fact is, nobody wants them.



The Stanley Holmes development is a nice place for people without jobs to live on our dime. In fact no one was shot this weekend there*

*10PM Thursday to 11AM Sunday July 10-13, 2014
4ofaKind
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July 13th, 2014 at 9:07:26 AM permalink
Quote: sodawater

That's well and good in theory, but this is reality. People are losing jobs; families will lose homes. AC is on its way to becoming another Detroit. South Jersey has no other industry to absorb the tens of thousands of jobs that will be lost, and the state has nowhere else to get all the tax revenue the AC casinos provided.

You could say let the free market reign but there should be limits. In a purely capitalist system, the logical course is one winner. One corporation with all the money, resources, jobs, products, and power. The reason this is the logical endgame of capitalism is the simple fact that it's much easier to make money if you already have money.

Do we want a society dominated by one Umbrella Corp., its shareholders and executives ruling the country like a feudal oligarchy?

Or do we want a society that redistributes wealth, plans its economy to some degree, and makes sure there is a safety net for "economic losers."

All you have to do is look at the quality of life in partially socialist Europe and Scandinavia to see which system works best for most people.

A socialist country like Germany destroys the USA in every quality of life measure we have: life expectancy, literacy, infant mortality, depression rate, crime rate, suicide rate, gun violence rate, etc etc etc.

The one thing the USA has over socialist Germany is that if you are one of the very lucky few who do get rich, you're set. You live like a king. You have power unimaginable.

But that doesn't maximize happiness for the greatest number of people. Billionaires who store up millions of lifetimes' worth of consumption in their bank accounts are never going to use that money to its fullest.

The difference between $10,000 and $20,000 a year is a HELL of a lot bigger than the difference between $1.11 million and $1.12 million per year.

TL, DR: Wealth has diminishing utility and thus to maximize its utility it should be redistributed fairly. The rich stand on the shoulders of society to create their wealth. Their employees use our roads, our schools, our hospitals. They can afford to give a little back.



Barack ... is this you?
steeldco
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July 13th, 2014 at 9:11:04 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

AC made hay while the sun shone.

The sun has set.

Keep up, or get out of the way.

And no, AC won't become another Detroit: more apt to compare it to Camden .

AC was almost a Camden anyway, before the mob and the state of NJ brought casinos to town.

Man, I'm sure glad I left NJ in my rear view mirror many years ago.



That might be a bit severe. I think Camden earned its nickname of being called the "armpit of the earth".
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1BB
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July 13th, 2014 at 10:02:44 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I will never understand why AC didn't invest in buying the entire island (can never remember the spelling..Absecon?) and make the place an amazing resort. It was to their mutual benefit not to have a slum immediately behind the casinos. They could STILL, even at this late date, declare eminent domain and just take it over in exchange for more state revenue from making the investment and building attractions/golf courses/whatever. They have everything else they need to make it a real destination.

Sad. I really enjoyed it there, but I guess it's been 8 years since I was last up.



You spelled Absecon correctly but were you thinking of Brigantine as the island?
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Wizard
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July 13th, 2014 at 11:11:04 AM permalink
Posts blaming "President Crackhead" for immigration and college admission policies that have been around for decades have been moved to the Ranting and Raving Corner.
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FleaStiff
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July 13th, 2014 at 1:09:57 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I say let the free market runs its course and stand by and let the weaker properties die. Supply simply exceeds demand.


Demand was indicated when the casinos opened and players were allowed to play three deep on the seated person's hand.
That is the demand for gambling in Atlantic City and the various surrounding states saw it and built casinos so as to bleed off Atlantic City's market base.

Its no longer just Vegas. No longer just Vegas and Atlantic City. Now its every wide place in the road that is a casino and every vendor of booze or cigarettes is also a lottery retailer.

Ain't nobody capturing and controlling the gamblers properly though. Some junketeers try. Some casino loyalty programs try.
SanchoPanza
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July 13th, 2014 at 4:10:25 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

You spelled Absecon correctly but were you thinking of Brigantine as the island?

From Wikipedia: "Absecon Island is a barrier island located on the Jersey Shore of the Atlantic Ocean in Atlantic County, New Jersey, USA. On the island (from north to south) are the resort communities of Atlantic City, Ventnor, Margate, and Longport. The island ends at Absecon Inlet to the north and Great Egg Harbor Inlet to the south."
Daddydoc
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July 13th, 2014 at 4:21:39 PM permalink
Reposted from earlier today (accidentally moved to Rant/Rave):

Actually, Absecon Island has some very nice real estate toward the southern end of the island. AC is the northernmost town, followed by Ventnor, Margate, and Longport. Most of AC is a rathole, and some of Ventnor is lower-middle class. The southern end of Ventnor, and all of Margate and Longport have many multimillion dollar homes and townhouses.
If government is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.
JohnnyQ
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July 13th, 2014 at 5:21:04 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Demand was indicated when the casinos opened and players were allowed to play three deep on the seated person's hand.
That is the demand for gambling in Atlantic City and the various surrounding states saw it and built casinos so as to bleed off Atlantic City's market base.

Its no longer just Vegas. No longer just Vegas and Atlantic City.



So, isn't the question that the AC Casino industry has to ask ITSELF, is:

"What do we need to do to make ourselves an attraction that people want to go to ?"

- It could be room rates, comps, history, the ocean, whatever. But if they haven't figured that out, then they just need to be satisfied with whatever happens.

I have been to Casinos in Nevada, Michigan, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Florida, Illinois, Mississippi, North Carolina, New York, Ontario Canada, and Ohio.

But I have never gone to New Jersey. So I can't judge AC, but I don't know why I should try it either. ( AC isn't exactly close by, ~500 miles, but it is do-able. LV is much much further away, but it is a DESTINATION ! ).

There are just too many nice and convenient options for casinos closer to home than AC.
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
SanchoPanza
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July 13th, 2014 at 5:26:56 PM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

"What do we need to do to make ourselves an attraction that people want to go to ?" - It could be room rates, comps, history, the ocean, whatever. But if they haven't figured that out, then they just need to be satisfied with whatever happens.

They should have stopped spitting in customers' eyes and grabbing for their wallets way before even Foxwoods opened. Instead, the BS increased, all the while the city and state squandered away whatever input and good will that they had while the whole place went highly noticeably downhill.
Wizard
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July 13th, 2014 at 5:35:14 PM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

What do we need to do to make ourselves an attraction that people want to go to ?



I'd suggest conventions but getting to AC by plane is a not easy. They have a nice convention center but it is located quite far from the casinos.

I don't know of anything that will save AC. As somebody else wrote, they are destined to become Reno.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
rdw4potus
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July 13th, 2014 at 5:49:35 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I'd suggest conventions but getting to AC by plane is a not easy. They have a nice convention center but it is located quite far from the casinos.

I don't know of anything that will save AC. As somebody else wrote, they are destined to become Reno.



The convention center is at the train depot, and NJT runs from downtown philly to AC about every 2 hours from 5am-1am. It's an easy and somewhat scenic trip, through the utter slums of north Philly, upper-middle class NJ 'burbs, and the marsh land surrounding AC. If someone were going to fly in with the idea of visiting AC, I'd suggest flying to PHL and taking the train(s) to AC (SEPTA from PHL to 30th street downtown, NJT from 30th street to AC). UAL does now fly directly to ACY from a couple places, which also makes that airport more viable. But, ACY is about 20 miles from AC.

I don't think the convention center is as far from the casinos as you're remembering. The walk to Bally's/Caesar's is about 4-5 blocks. Just walk through the outlet mall & past the hospital and you're there. It's well lighted, well-traveled, and involves only the one road so it's a pretty easy walk. There's also a Jitney stop at the Convention Center/Train Depot. Rides are free to train passengers and $2.25 for all others. There's also a taxi stand at the Sheraton (the Convention Center hotel) if public transportation and/or walking isn't your thing.
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AxelWolf
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July 13th, 2014 at 6:05:52 PM permalink
They need to turn it into Monopoly land amusement park and casinos(something like Disney World). The beaches need something done with them.

They need to start with cheap short notice Airfare. More flights need to go directly to AC. Most of the time it costs way less to fly into Philly.

As I said before, there is not much to do in AC out side of the casinos.

There is no real reason to casino hop. (THEY CHARGE FOR PARKING)

The only must see casino they have is the Revel.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
kewlj
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July 13th, 2014 at 6:50:23 PM permalink
I think wizard is correct in that the airport situation was always a major negative. The NJ transit train from philly to AC was a decent ride at a fair price. The train was my regular mode of transportation my last few years of living in center city Phila. My early years I used the buslines that paid you a bonus back when you got to AC (free transportation), but upgraded to the train in my last couple years.

The train ride took about 90 minutes, as mentioned. The worse part of the trip was the last 40 minutes, where the train crossed the Delaware river and looped around through North Phildelphia before arriving at 30th street station, in the University City (U of Penn, Drexel) section of Phila. On that 40 minute loop the train had to use Amtrac tracks, and was forced by agreement to travel about 10 miles per hour, making that journey from 30th street to the first New Jersey stop Cherry Hill 40 minutes, instead of the 10 that it would take by car.

There was also a short cut that was utilized by us locals taking the train from AC to Lindenwald stop in jersey which was 45 minutes and then transferring to the Lindenwald hi speed line to Phila, 21 minutes (elevated line in NJ, underground in Phila), which had 3 stops in the center city section of Phila. I resided a block from the 16th locust hi speed stop, and if I timed it right could be in AC in 65 minutes. That 65 minutes was a good little transition period for me, making notes and mentally going over my play for the day.

That NJ transit train was mostly used by casino workers though who lived in the several small towns along the route in Jersey. There were just few luggage carrying passengers from Philadelphia. Just too much hassle. From Philadelphia airport to the NJ transit train required a second train as someone mentioned.

I think another thing AC missed out on was things like major boxing matches. Fight weekends are huge in Vegas. They bring the disposable money crowd to town for the whole weekend. I am told AC had some big boxing matches (before my playing days) in the old AC convention center right on the boardwalk when Mike Tyson was Boxing's big drawl, but got away from it afterwards.
kewlj
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July 13th, 2014 at 7:08:39 PM permalink
In remembering that NJ transit train ride there was another annoying thing about that ride. There was only one single track the whole way. There were several side track pullover spots where the train might have to pullover and stop to wait for the train going the other way to pass. This slowed the trip. There usually was at least one pullover, 5 minute wait on each trip. In the last year or so, before I moved, NJT started running a second non stop train (from NY) on those same tracks on weekends. This meant even more of those 5 minute side track wait periods.
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