Do Native American casino's have to abide by the same laws as non-Native US casinos?
Quote: DrawingDeadI'm aware of at least some non-gaming laws that they don't choose to follow. For example in Nevada smoking is not permitted in restaurants, except in the Avi casino, near Laughlin, on tribal land. I've never been clear on whether they must be subject to State Gaming Enforcement for casino gaming disputes, but whether or not they must agree to that, they apparently have, because I saw a poker room dispute become a Nevada Gaming Enforcement complaint.
State smoking bans never apply to reservations, even if the law specifically banned it in casinos (or restaurants or wherever), reservations may ignore it.
They don't follow them as a rule, like, just because "X" casino does, we have to as well. However, Vegas is often the foundation for the rules that the tribes build off of.
If it's a Class II facility, broad guidelines are handed down by the Feds, specifically, The I.ndian G.aming R.egulatory A.ct (I spelled it out so you don't Google "IGRA" and spend the rest of the night giggling ;)) From these, the tribes make more specific rules called the MICS (Minimal Internal Control Standars). From these they refine them and become more specific with the creation of the TICS (Tribal Internal Control Standards). The MICS and TICS can vary from tribe to tribe. Some are lenient and/or broad, some are more strict and/or specific. But all of it originates with the Feds.
Class III facilities are governed by the State/Nation Compact. Similar to the Class II process, broad guidelines are formed and agreed upon between the Nation and the State. Typically, the rules and regs follows Vegas, since it's long since been established and all the heavy lifting has been done. However, they are somewhat free to change, add, or delete requirements to suit their own needs. And again, from this Compact we generate our Policy and Procedures manuals, which basically run the casino and keep everything within the agreement in the Compact.
Of course you know good & well that I immediately did that. And found it... surprising.Quote: Faceso you don't Google "IGRA" and
Quote: DrawingDeadOf course you know good & well that I immediately did that. And found it... surprising.
This is not my first rodeo, cowboy....lmao
Quote: MrVIs there any reliable data out there comparing the typical slot hold of tribal slots to those in Las Vegas?
Both Connecticut casinos are required by law to submit monthly slot results to the Department of Consumer Protection. They are also required to publicly disclose said results. It can all be found online.
Quote: mickeycrimmThe one area I would be concerned about is whether you can sue a Native American casino. I've always heard that you can't sue an Indian Nation without their consent.
You can't sue Federal, State, Tribal and most Municipal governments without their consent.
Sovereign Immunity
Hence the term "You can't fight City Hall".
A few years ago, a guy hurt his back falling off a defective slot machine chair at Mohegan Sun. He sued and was awarded $500,000 in Tribal Court.
The best indicator of slot hold is to trace the marketing of used slot machines.
It seems if they go to Mexico the chips are changed otherwise Nevada regs set the market.
The compact that Weicker signed on his own is readily available at Hartford Courant:Quote: 1BBBoth Connecticut casinos are required by law to submit monthly slot results to the Department of Consumer Protection. They are also required to publicly disclose said results. It can all be found online.
January 15, 1993|By DON NOEL; Courant Political Columnist
"L'etat, c'est moi," Louis XIV told the Parliament of Paris in 1665. "I am the state."
Gov. Lowell P. Weicker Jr., says he is the state of Connecticut when it comes to striking a bargain with the Mashantucket Pequots. A federally imposed moratorium barred video slot-machine gambling at the Pequots' Foxwoods Casino until, among other options, "it is determined by agreement between the Tribe and the State ..." that video slots "would not be unlawful."
Weicker bypassed the state attorney general, and had his director of special revenue negotiate a deal with the Pequots: They will pay the state $100 million a year from their revenues so long as they have the exclusive right in Connecticut to use the devices.
It's a master stroke that undercuts legislative efforts to authorize state-sanctioned casinos in Hartford and Bridgeport, and to allow existing jai-alai frontons and dog-racing tracks, as well as casinos, to use video slots.
No results for revenues and foxwoods and mohegan sun and law. Nor for that matter for the term "audits" in place of law. A bit more specificity might help.
Quote: PokeraddictState smoking bans never apply to reservations, even if the law specifically banned it in casinos (or restaurants or wherever), reservations may ignore it.
You can't smoke in restaurants in California at Indian casinos.
California has particular laws about gaming including rules that prohibit the traditional versions of craps and roulette.
I don't know of any "loopholes" that allow Indian casinos to run dishonest games.
Quote: MrVIs there any reliable data out there comparing the typical slot hold of tribal slots to those in Las Vegas?
The required return of Nevada slots is 75%. I am pretty sure if you go to Tribal Casinos they also have a minimum return of 75%. What makes you think Indian casinos are any worse than what you find in Nevada?
Quote: AlanMendelsonCalifornia has particular laws about gaming including rules that prohibit the traditional versions of craps and roulette.
This is what the state's Constitution says:
The Governor is authorized to negotiate and conclude compacts, subject to ratification by the Legislature, for the operation of slot machines and for the conduct of lottery games and banking and percentage card games by federally recognized Indian tribes on Indian lands in California in accordance with federal law.
Accordingly, slot machines, lottery games, and banking and percentage card games are hereby permitted to be conducted and operated on tribal lands subject to those compacts.
More recent compacts have been a little more specific, stating that "card roulette," E-roulette, anything else that can be construed as roulette, and any game (including machines) that use actual dice (I assume this is targeted at rapid / bubble / "pop-o-matic" craps; note that there is no ban on E-craps or electronic Sic Bo, which, like VP, are considered "slot machines"), is prohibited.
The lack of public certified independent audits.Quote: AlanMendelsonI don't know of any "loopholes" that allow Indian casinos to run dishonest games.
Quote: ThatDonGuyThe only law I know they have to comply with is the ban on sports books outside of Nevada.
And where is this written? I wonder if any have tried to take this to court? It seems to me their entire case for being would allow them to accept sports bets.
Do they serve alcoholic beverages?Quote: GandlerI know some that let you in at 18 as oppose to 21. Other than that I don't know.
Quote: scubatim84So here's the big question I have...since they are governing themselves, instead of a third party such as the CA government, what are the odds that slots (specifically video poker) pay out what's advertised? For example, if you see a 9/6 JoB machine that is supposed to pay out 99.54% over the long term...will it?
I have heard that if you're playing a VP game in an Indian casino that is the same exact type as offered in a Vegas casino, that the RNG will be the same, i.e. honest.
Quote: scubatim84So here's the big question I have...since they are governing themselves, instead of a third party such as the CA government, what are the odds that slots (specifically video poker) pay out what's advertised? For example, if you see a 9/6 JoB machine that is supposed to pay out 99.54% over the long term...will it?
I would assume yes. Confirm that it's not a Class II "video poker" (or video keno) machine - those absolutely will not have the same manner of determining the outcome as you expect. If you're playing video poker and you see a genie appear, worry.
Quote: SanchoPanzaDo they serve alcoholic beverages?
I think some do. But I have been in some that don't. It may vary by state or tribe.
Quote: BozAnd where is this written? I wonder if any have tried to take this to court? It seems to me their entire case for being would allow them to accept sports bets.
Pardon me for responding to a 5-month-old post...
It is written in the United States Code:
Quote: Title 28, Section 3704(b), United States CodeExcept as provided in subsection (a),section 3702 shall apply on lands described in section 4(4) of the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (25 U.S.C. 2703 (4)).
"Section 3702" is the sports book ban:
Quote: Title 28, Section 3702, United States CodeIt shall be unlawful for—
(1) a governmental entity to sponsor, operate, advertise, promote, license, or authorize by law or compact, or
(2) a person to sponsor, operate, advertise, or promote, pursuant to the law or compact of a governmental entity,
a lottery, sweepstakes, or other betting, gambling, or wagering scheme based, directly or indirectly (through the use of geographical references or otherwise), on one or more competitive games in which amateur or professional athletes participate, or are intended to participate, or on one or more performances of such athletes in such games.
"Subsection (a)" lists the exceptions: sports books in cities where they were already legal and had been operating for 10 years, state lotteries, jai-alai, and pari-mutuel animal racing.
Quote: GandlerIt may vary by state or tribe.
... and casino, and class of gaming.
Class II seems to allow 18+, Class III seems to require 21+. So, the Bingo hall (Class II) may allow 18 year olds, but the main casino floor may not.
One of the local slot parlors is all Class II; they allow 18+. They happen not to serve alcohol most of the time (although, on "special occasions" like New Year's Eve, they will bring in alcohol).
It's complicated.
Anyway, for the average gambler there is quite alot of conflict and doubt about regulatory authority.
Reports, if reliable, may be to an agency with clout or to a Rubber Stamp.
Still , for all practical purposes, why would slot manufacturers create a separate chip or marketing department. Track the sale of used machines and machines destined for Mexico and you get situations of no worse than in Vegas and its clear that marketing forces, not regulations, are the driving force in Vegas.
There are different situations for tort law, criminal law, procedural matters, forum shopping, etc. but for the average gambler its not going to be a major difference.
Indian casinos are close by, Vegas is far. Indian casinos generally run a close second, sometimes its a distant second. Depends what you want in a casino. Depends what you want in beverage services. Depends what you want in travel logistics.
Quote: DieterI would assume yes. Confirm that it's not a Class II "video poker" (or video keno) machine - those absolutely will not have the same manner of determining the outcome as you expect. If you're playing video poker and you see a genie appear, worry.
Good to know, although you have me confused with Class II video poker? I was reading up on Class 1-3 and was under the impression Class II gaming are games where the casino is not directly involved in the outcome, such as a poker room, whereas Class III gaming is what you typically will find in a casino where you play against the house (blackjack, slots, video poker, etc.). I have no idea what the difference is between Class II and Class III video poker.
Quote: GreasyjohnI have heard that if you're playing a VP game in an Indian casino that is the same exact type as offered in a Vegas casino, that the RNG will be the same, i.e. honest.
Not if they don't have a class III gaming compact with the state. Many states do, but a few don't. And even if they don't, they can still offer class ii video poker, which is electronic bingo whose result are displayed by poker cards (or slot reels for slots). So strategy and paytables are thrown out the window for VP.
Washington state and New York state-run racinos use virtual "pull tabs" instead. Again the same result for VP, paytables and strategy mean nothing.
Quote: tringlomaneNot if they don't have a class III gaming compact with the state. Many states do, but a few don't. And even if they don't, they can still offer class ii video poker, which is electronic bingo whose result are displayed by poker cards (or slot reels for slots). So strategy and paytables are thrown out the window for VP.
Washington state and New York state-run racinos use virtual "pull tabs" instead. Again the same result for VP, paytables and strategy mean nothing.
So does California have a class III gaming compact with the state? That's the state where I was considering playing at an Indian casino providing that if I see say 9/6 JoB it actually does pay out 99.54%.
Quote: scubatim84So does California have a class III gaming compact with the state? That's the state where I was considering playing at an Indian casino providing that if I see say 9/6 JoB it actually does pay out 99.54%.
Just about all California tribal casinos have compacts with the state. If a casino advertises at all, then more than likely it is Class III. The one I can think of off the top of my head that does not is Lytton San Pablo, and its website says that it has Class II machines.
Here is the most recent list of Class III-authorized casinos in California.
Quote: ThatDonGuyJust about all California tribal casinos have compacts with the state. If a casino advertises at all, then more than likely it is Class III. The one I can think of off the top of my head that does not is Lytton San Pablo, and its website says that it has Class II machines.
Here is the most recent list of Class III-authorized casinos in California.
Thanks for the web site TDG. I've been reading up on all this, but I don't understand how bingo relates to non-random VP machines, and what "pull tabs" are? Can anyone explain it without a lot of unnecessary detail? Seems to me that bingo games are random.
Quote: Greasyjohn
Thanks for the web site TDG. I've been reading up on all this, but I don't understand how bingo relates to non-random VP machines, and what "pull tabs" are? Can anyone explain it without a lot of unnecessary detail? Seems to me that bingo games are random.
Class II VLT's pull from a select field of possible results like a stack of pull tabs. For example, if you have 100 pull tabs and 1 wins $20, 3 win $5, 5 win $2 and 20 win $1 (we'll call that Even Money) then the return of the pull tabs is $65, or 65%. Now, if you have a fresh stack of said pull tabs (but, with the machines, you don't know when a new stack is mixed in, other than seriously erroneous machines which may not even be able to be found anymore, so you can't exploit knowledge of previous failures other than it may ever so slightly improve your odds on the next play) and the first tab that comes off is the $20 one, then you know that there are 99 tabs left returning $45 for a 45.45-% return on the rest.
Anyway, the merchant sees that $20 tab go out, and he's not sweating it, because he knows the sum of the tabs results in +$35 for him, all that needs to happen is all the tabs get sold.
Class II VLT Video Poker, or Keno or whatever operates the same exact way. There is a finite number of results and a fixed RTP (Return-to-Player) per set (and we don't know how big the sets are) of results. The game that you are playing is irrelevant, it's just a graphical representation of the result of your pull tab or Bingo game.
Quote: scubatim84Good to know, although you have me confused with Class II video poker? I was reading up on Class 1-3 and was under the impression Class II gaming are games where the casino is not directly involved in the outcome, such as a poker room, whereas Class III gaming is what you typically will find in a casino where you play against the house (blackjack, slots, video poker, etc.). I have no idea what the difference is between Class II and Class III video poker.
Class III is "normal" casino gaming - regular slots, regular video poker, regular table games.
Class II is non-house-banked table games (poker may fall under this category), and bingo. (I often see ages 18+ welcome for Class II gaming; there may be some common differences in the various compacts.)
Class I is... probably not relevant.
As others have said... Class II video poker is almost always a bingo game with the results of the bingo game displayed similarly to how a comparable video poker win would be displayed for entertainment purposes only. If you spend any time looking at Class II machines, you'll often see "prize awards determined by bingo results. other displays for entertainment purposes only." Help screens often have buried inside something about "once the outcome of the bingo game is determined, the entertainment portion of the game display begins..."
Not so big a deal for "regular slot" display Class II. There, like many other slot machines, it's stick in some money, smack the button, maybe get some money back. However, Class II "video poker" is decidedly not like regular video poker.
Most of the Class II facilities I've seen have a prominent sign on the door that says it's a Class II facility, and the games may appear like slot machines, however the game you are playing is bingo. (You do actually read the signs... right?)
Quote: GreasyjohnSo does that mean if I'm playing class II VP and get a Royal that the chances are almost nill that I could get another one a couple hands later because the current pull tabs bingo thing is already maxed out? Could you be playing in a maxed out cycle, not know it, but have only small nominal wins until the next cycle (but you never know where in the cycle you are)? And is it true that with class II VP that the casino has less risk since the percentage to the house is essentially constant?
There are a few things to answer, here:
1.) The probability of a Royal should range from slightly less likely to impossible because you don't know how many Royal equivalent pays are in the set, nor do you know how big the set is. Pragmatically, it makes no difference, because there may have been no Royals in the set at the time you sat down, alternatively, it may have had, "More than usual," and you are still more likely than usual to get another Royal, but you don't know...the probability should be worse for the next hand if you just got a Royal...but you don't know what the probability was in the first place.
2.) I don't know that I would term it as the House having, "Less Risk," it's just that the limited set will play out according to how it is supposed to. A truly random game with a greater House Edge will yield a greater percentage return in the long-run and a truly random game with a lesser House Edge will yield a lesser return in the long run.
Any casino is very rarely going to allow for a play or promotion that can single-handedly bankrupt them, so the risk isn't with the games themselves, it's with not enough people playing them.
Quote: GreasyjohnSo does that mean if I'm playing class II VP and get a Royal that the chances are almost nill that I could get another one a couple hands later because the current pull tabs bingo thing is already maxed out? Could you be playing in a maxed out cycle, not know it, but have only small nominal wins until the next cycle (but you never know where in the cycle you are)? And is it true that with class II VP that the casino has less risk since the percentage to the house is essentially constant?
If it's pull-tab based, yes.
If it's bingo based, no. (The outcomes are still based on a random generator, but the outcomes are determined in a different manner than the 52 card shuffler, because it's a 75 ball shuffler, and the win patterns are different.)
If it's Class II "video poker", it doesn't matter what you hold*. Just hit deal/draw. The value of the win has already been determined, the genie will appear to help you out if you do something "silly".
*It might, theoretically, matter when you hit play/daub/deal to begin the game, if you were able to find some irregularity or trend in the bingo RNG or player pool.
Quote: Mission146There are a few things to answer, here:
1.) The probability of a Royal should range from slightly less likely to impossible because you don't know how many Royal equivalent pays are in the set, nor do you know how big the set is. Pragmatically, it makes no difference, because there may have been no Royals in the set at the time you sat down, alternatively, it may have had, "More than usual," and you are still more likely than usual to get another Royal, but you don't know...the probability should be worse for the next hand if you just got a Royal...but you don't know what the probability was in the first place.
2.) I don't know that I would term it as the House having, "Less Risk," it's just that the limited set will play out according to how it is supposed to. A truly random game with a greater House Edge will yield a greater percentage return in the long-run and a truly random game with a lesser House Edge will yield a lesser return in the long run.
Any casino is very rarely going to allow for a play or promotion that can single-handedly bankrupt them, so the risk isn't with the games themselves, it's with not enough people playing them.
Thanks, Mission. I appreciate you taking the time to explain it. So if a 8/5 BP game has a 99.17% payback in a class III casino, what would you expect the return to the player to be in a class II casino?
I just can't get my head around this bingo thing. In bingo they keep playing until someone in the room gets one. In a class II casino I am assuming that the chances are NOT about 40,000 :1 of getting a royal. And I'm assuming that you couldn't miraculously have two people each playing machines at the same time, in the same class II casino get royals.
If you can dumb it down for me even more I'd appreciate it. Are Genie's always there in class II VP games? (I can't be alone in my cloudiness.)
Quote: GreasyjohnI've been reading up on all this, but I don't understand how bingo relates to non-random VP machines, and what "pull tabs" are? Can anyone explain it without a lot of unnecessary detail?
The easiest way of describing what a "pull tab" is is, it's a privately-run version of a scratch-off lottery ticket, only instead of scratching off a coating to see the results, you pull (usually three) tabs on a ticket, and the result appears similar to the pay line of a three-reel slot machine.
Here is a website that sells various versions, plus other variations such as "punchboards". The only time I've seen a gambling-style punchboard is on the final episode of Quantum Leap.
Quote: GreasyjohnThanks, Mission. I appreciate you taking the time to explain it. So if a 8/5 BP game has a 99.17% payback in a class III casino, what would you expect the return to the player to be in a class II casino?
Short of the Regulatory Board (whoever it be for the jurisdiction) having jurisdictional minimum and maximum returns, the only thing you can expect is something in that range. That's the key, the paytable displayed is 100% irrelevant. I could have a machine with a paytable for a make-believe game I like to call 15/10 BP, and it would make exactly no difference with respect to what the machine could pay.
Quote:I just can't get my head around this bingo thing. In bingo they keep playing until someone in the room gets one. In a class II casino I am assuming that the chances are NOT about 40,000 :1 of getting a royal. And I'm assuming that you couldn't miraculously have two people each playing machines at the same time, in the same class II casino get royals.
It's Bingo-Game based, but I think it would be almost more accurate to think of that style machine more like Keno than Bingo. It's Bingo, but thinking of it like Keno makes the concept simpler. You get a, b or c Line or d, e or f pattern in x number of draws, and the pay corresponds.
Quote:If you can dumb it down for me even more I'd appreciate it. Are Genie's always there in class II VP games? (I can't be alone in my cloudiness.)
I don't think so, but I could be wrong.
The Class II machines are obviously so because they have a bingo card somewhere on the display and the big button typically says "Play/Daub" instead of "Spin."
When you press the button, you are playing a virtual round of bingo against other players who pressed their Play/Daub button within the same window/timeframe that you did (it's probably a 1 or 2 second window). If not enough people pressed their button in the same timeframe, the machine will say "Waiting for other players" until there are enough players (presumably only 2 are needed) to play a round of bingo.
Bingo numbers are then drawn and marked off on your card while the reels spin. If your card ends up achieving a winning pattern, you win a prize, and reel positions or cards are selected which appear to produce that prize according to the meaningless paytable.
This is just a guess, but I think the way bigger wins are handled (such as a royal flush on the machines that resemble video poker) is by having behind-the-scenes progressive jackpots for getting certain patterns within a certain number of calls, like a Double Hardway in 14 calls or something like that. For a slots-like machine, this might be presented as "spinning" an outcome which awards a bonus round, and having the bonus round (whether it is presented as free spins, a pick bonus, a wheel bonus, etc.) award a total amount which equals however much the secret jackpot you won was worth.
Sometimes there will be a random "bonus win" for a fraction of your bet. This is again just a guess, but I think it occurs when the bingo prize pool is split so many ways that your portion of the prize pool cannot be properly represented using the game's (meaningless) paytable.
Pull-tab games are similar but with no bingo card on the display, so you may not even know you're playing a virtual pull-tab game. If you're at a venue operated by a state lottery, you are probably playing virtual pull-tab games that are presented as slots or video poker. Like the bingo-based games, the amount you win is determined first by a virtual ticket (instead of by a bingo game), and then reel positions or cards which produce that predetermined win are presented to you as if that was how your win was determined, even though it wasn't.
The Class II machines at Akwesasne which resemble video poker have a "match" thing which is likely the mechanism that awards the hand you need to end up with to achieve the prize you won from the bingo game. For example, if you appear to have been dealt a royal flush and toss one or more of its cards, the "match" mechanism will ensure that you somehow get the discard(s) back on the meaningless draw.
With Class III games, the reel positions or cards dealt are determined randomly, and then compared to the meaningful paytable to see if they produce a win and if so, that win is awarded. This poses a short-term risk to the casino because there could be a lot of players experiencing several large wins in a short period of time since the outcomes are truly random.
Class II games have zero risk for the house because prizes are only awarded after wagers have been placed, and are always less than 100% of the total amount wagered -- just like poker, where players make their wagers, the house takes a small cut, and the pot is divided equally among the winner(s). The only way there could be several large winners in a short period of time on Class II games is if the total amount wagered is higher than the total amount paid out, with the house keeping the difference as profit.
One thing that is glaringly obvious with the Class II games at Akwesasne at least is that when the bingo outcome results in a loss, the reel positions presented frequently have gobs of wild symbols carefully positioned so that no win is possible according to the meaningless paytable. This could give the impression to someone who doesn't realize that they aren't playing an actual slot machine that the seemingly-valuable wild symbols are free-flowing and easy to get. It's blatantly deliberate; a typical losing outcome will have no two symbols alike between the 1st and 2nd reels, with stacked wilds in all or nearly all of the positions on the last 3 reels. It is arguably worse than the 3-reel "near miss" debacle.
Outstanding detail of the difference between II and III. This should be a reference article on the website, not just in this thread. Perhaps it could go on WoO?
