Detroit may set new precedent
Detroit has roughly 20 neighborhoods roughly 650 acres apiece where only 10%-15% of the homes are occupied. The city would like to abandon these neighborhoods since the cost of keeping up basic services from fire to waste pickup to police in empty areas is very high. The city can't force residents to move, and it's almost impossible under Michigan law for the city to seize properties for development. Possibly by letting them go dark, which will clearly make them even less friendly, and even more crime ridden, will force people out.
interview with the last resident of one neighborhood
Nearly vacant neighborhood in Detroit
Quote: FleaStiffTime for Urban Homesteading and a Committee of Regulators to enforce the law. Perhaps the City should formally de-annex the neighborhoods. Paducah, KY invited Gay Artists to revitalize its Cracktown. What can Detroit do? Invite the KKK?
Despite loads of fraud the Homestead Act did what it was intended to do--settle in 80 years lands that it was thought would take 1000 to settle and populate. I have heard of some towns in the plains doing exactly what you suggest. Detroit coluld do it, offer say 1/4 to 1/2 acre lots for people to put low to medium-density housing (R-1 to R-3) up, new build only. Take the onece-in-a-lifetime opportunity to rip out streets and relay them out if needed. Detroit already has the main-grid, but inside they might be fairly tight. Reserve 20-30%of the lots for when the fill-in brings up the value and they can be sold at greater profit. Reserve some area for higher density residential and commercial.
Will it happen? Probably not unless Detroit goes bankrupt and tries to disincorporate into the county. Detroit is a very big city geographically, so perhaps it is time to disincorporate all but the center-city and let there be a few independent entities around it. In PA such a place grows in the format township-boro-city. Whatever MI calls them, do the same thing. Let each pick the level of services it needs.
Quote: Gabes22Has Detroit ever set up any enterprise zones. I know in Chicago they sent up one many years ago that covered the area to the west of downtown and included an infamous housing project in Cabrini Green. What they did with this enterprise zone is to allow anyone who was thinking about opening a business in the enterprise zone to do any of the development tax free, so construction supplies were completely tax free on these jobs. Today, Cabrini Green is basically gone and that area of the city between downtown and the United Center is one of the hottest areas of the city to be in.
I always wondered how serious "enterprise zones" were after I saw a suburban office park declared as one near my home which was in a dead-middle class area.
Or perhaps even Max Headroom: 20 Minutes into the Future.
Murray: "Credit Fraud?!?!, My God, thats worse than murder!"
Quote: AZDuffmanWill it happen? Probably not unless Detroit goes bankrupt and tries to disincorporate into the county. Detroit is a very big city geographically, so perhaps it is time to disincorporate all but the center-city and let there be a few independent entities around it. In PA such a place grows in the format township-boro-city. Whatever MI calls them, do the same thing. Let each pick the level of services it needs.
Detroit has 245% of the area of Pittsburgh, and 233% of the population. So on average they seem the same. But Pittsburgh with it's tiny area (comparable to San Francisco, Seattle, or Boston) has done an outstanding job of making the city attractive and a magnet. With gas prices zooming, and the nice riverfront (and casino), the city should only become more attractive. Cook County (Chicago) has 110 municipalities and parts of 26 others, but they are the second most populous county in the USA.
But Pittsburgh is wealthier than the nearby municipalities. There is a whopping 130 municipalities in Allegheny County (must be a nationwide high).
While breaking up Detroit into a dozen municipalities may not immediately change much, it will probably help the reputation of the urban core city of Detroit. That alone might make a difference, as people will no longer associate the name of the city with absolute mayhem.
A lot of Pittsburgh's recovery was when the name was no longer synonymous with smokestacks and air pollution. People were more likely to relocate there.
Quote:A ghost town is an abandoned village, town or city. A town often becomes a ghost town because the economic activity that supported it has failed, or due to natural or human-caused disasters such as floods, government actions, uncontrolled lawlessness, war, or nuclear disasters. The term is sometimes used to refer to cities, towns, and neighborhoods which are still populated, but significantly less so than in years past.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_town
Ohh yeah..don't tell anyone...cockroaches just run, then come back...better to eliminate the entire problem.
Human rights you say?...Most people gave those up long ago...
Quote: IbeatyouracesThe neighboorhoods in the city look like nuclear war zones.
They'd be better off if they were in a war zone. Most
of the houses in the abandoned neighborhoods
have been stripped of all plumbing, all the wire in the
walls is gone, anything of any value has been taken
years ago. The houses are just shells waiting to fall
down. In the older houses, even the oak moulding
and trim has has been ripped out.
Question: Whats the difference between Detroit and
a 3rd world country.
Answer: Say what?
Quote: Gabes2235K of Detroit 88K streetlights are broken. many of them in areas that don't need them anymore, and then on top of the 35K that don't work, they will get rid of an additional 7K. All this for 160M? I wonder why Detroit is broke?
That does sound strange that they will have even fewer lights with the additional money. I assume that there is some cleanup involving dismantling the old lights.
I have to wonder about the value of street lights outside of dense urban plazas or shopping areas.
To Save Energy, Cities Darken Street Lights
There must be better technology than 100 watt overhead street lights. Both to fight crime, to alert police that a crime is taking place, and to help them find a victim, or to prevent automobile accidents or to prevent a pedestrian from tripping over a piece of broken sidewalk
Quote: pacomartinBoth to fight crime, to alert police that a crime is taking place, and to help them find a victim,
Back in my Cab Co days I wouldn't go down streets
where there were no streetlights. It was frightening.
You can't see anything, parked cars, pedestrians,
yards, people waiting to jump out and rob you. In
big cities in pre streetlight days, you didn't dare
go out after dark for fear of being robbed. In NYC
they would strip you bare and leave you in the
gutter. People think crime is bad now, they have
no idea.
Quote: EvenBobBack in my Cab Co days I wouldn't go down streets where there were no streetlights.
People think crime is bad now, they have no idea.
Wikipedia says pedestrian fatalities are 3 to 6.75 times more likely in the dark than in daylight. But technology is very different. You can put on a vest with LED lights that will work much better to alert motorists.
As far as safety against crime, your vest could have some kind of a dead man's switch that dials 911 if your blood pressure goes down, or if you fail to hit a switch periodically. If that sounds grisly, it is still better than relying on some overhead light. First of all if you are a victim of a hit and run, the overhead light will only help to alert some Good Samaritan. Overhead lights can be broken by a criminal. Criminals can stage a place to jump at you and drag you to a place with poor visibility. Victims of rapes are often undiscovered for long periods, and frequently until they can crawl somewhere to call the police.
If a criminal or potential rapist begins to recognize that these vests will dial 9-11 very quickly, they will avoid these potential victims.
The French require you to have a vest in your car if you break down and need to stand by the side of the road.
"It's yellow, it's ugly, it doesn't go with anything, but it could save your life."
Quote: bigfoot66Given the amount of money that various levels of government steal from us each and every year, it is beyond my comprehension that they would not be able to afford a few lousy streetlights.
I totally believe they can't afford it. Neighborhoods that
are empty are a huge drain on any city and half of Detroit
is empty. No income is coming from those area's, only outgo.
Quote: bigfoot66Given the amount of money that various levels of government steal from us each and every year, it is beyond my comprehension that they would not be able to afford a few lousy streetlights.
Well, in that case, you're probably not considering 30% for graft.
Quote: bigfoot66Given the amount of money that various levels of government steal from us each and every year, it is beyond my comprehension that they would not be able to afford a few lousy streetlights.
Are you aware of the last MAYOR of Detroit...Kwame Kilpatrick? I dont think much got done on his watch that was good for the city....now good for his buddys and his pocket thats a different story.
google Kwame Kilpatrick and see all about it
http://www.freep.com/article/20120522/NEWS01/205220412/Attempt-to-delay-Kwame-Kilpatrick-s-corruption-trial-fails
I'm sure they can afford the lightbulbs, its replacing them that is difficult. I imagine the bulbs get shot out all the time and so do the fixtures and the installers.Quote: bigfoot66Given the amount of money that various levels of government steal from us each and every year, it is beyond my comprehension that they would not be able to afford a few lousy streetlights.
What was that City of Richmond finding: Computer showed over a hundred rounds fired but no one called 911.
Owners of crack houses won't complain that the street is dark. Owners of abandoned shells won't complain either.
Quote: pacomartinDetroit has 245% of the area of Pittsburgh, and 233% of the population. So on average they seem the same. But Pittsburgh with it's tiny area (comparable to San Francisco, Seattle, or Boston) has done an outstanding job of making the city attractive and a magnet. With gas prices zooming, and the nice riverfront (and casino), the city should only become more attractive. Cook County (Chicago) has 110 municipalities and parts of 26 others, but they are the second most populous county in the USA.
But Pittsburgh is wealthier than the nearby municipalities. There is a whopping 130 municipalities in Allegheny County (must be a nationwide high).
I believe it is a nationwide high. Allegheny County is a bit like the Holy Roman Empire. Pittsburgh has some good things going for it such as most coastline of any US city. OTOH, the rest of the geography is terrible, and there are always bridges falling apart with so many here. Somehow we are the largest inland port city in the USA. I even swore to the Coast Guard Officer who told me that fact that I would have guessed St Louis. Nope. Right here.
Anyhow, all those municipalities have a weird effect. There is duplication, but there is much local government as it was intended. Don't like the zoning in Monroeville, move to Gibsonia. Whatever. One place we save costs over Detroit is fire fighting. I would guess the metro area is the volunteer fire fighter capital of the world. Every town has enough people who live to be volunteer firefighers to the point there are wait lists. Any of that in Detroit?
Quote:While breaking up Detroit into a dozen municipalities may not immediately change much, it will probably help the reputation of the urban core city of Detroit. That alone might make a difference, as people will no longer associate the name of the city with absolute mayhem.
A lot of Pittsburgh's recovery was when the name was no longer synonymous with smokestacks and air pollution. People were more likely to relocate there.
I think it would help in a few ways. First, when you are a large city your state constitution forces a lot of things on you. If Detroit became one "city" with whatever passes for a downtown and 4-5 surrounding "townships" you could seperate lighter from denser uses; fire half the school personnel; and get to smaller, local government where people might actually meet their mayor. You may have a point on the name "Detroit" being damaged goods. Pittsburgh did not really recover from the 1979-1982 collapse until the late 1990s.
Quote: AZDuffmanI think it would help in a few ways. First, when you are a large city your state constitution forces a lot of things on you. If Detroit became one "city" with whatever passes for a downtown and 4-5 surrounding "townships" you could seperate lighter from denser uses; fire half the school personnel; and get to smaller, local government where people might actually meet their mayor. You may have a point on the name "Detroit" being damaged goods. Pittsburgh did not really recover from the 1979-1982 collapse until the late 1990s.
Looking at the map, it looks like Center City Detroit (touching the water) is surrounded by two vast wastelands and two internal cities of fairly moderate density,
Highland Park (pop 11,776) and the city of Hamtramck (pop 22,423).
Map of Demolition orders target almost no properties in center city.
Quote:
The emergency manager who was sent to reverse the fortunes of this financially troubled city asked some of its creditors on Friday to accept pennies on the dollar as he laid out his plan for tackling Detroit’s staggering debt, kick-starting negotiations that could determine whether the city is headed to bankruptcy court.
Presenting a grim take on the city’s fiscal standing in a closed-door meeting, the emergency manager, Kevyn Orr, a bankruptcy lawyer from Washington who was appointed in March, made a case to dozens of bondholders and union leaders that deep cuts alone cannot save Detroit. He said that painful sacrifices must be shared.
I have no idea why anyone would keep throwing good money after bad, unless you like burning your money. Someone clue me in?
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/15/us/detroit-financial-problems.html?_r=0
Quote: IbeatyouracesEvery time I turn the tv on here, the news gets worse. Even the county of Wayne is in its own mess with an over budget new county jail and possible corruption along with it. The county executive Robert Ficano is constantly being hounded by reporters for answers.
Don't all major cities build their City Centre around the local lockups? How many different lockups are there within say 1 mile of the three casinos downtown?
What was the debt number tossed out today at the meetings.... for each resident of the City of Detroit they are $25000 in debt
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/04/wayne-county-jail-move-downtown-detroit_n_3382745.html
In Detroit there would be too much corruption for the program to work and someone would steal even the one dollar payments.
There is something morally wrong with chasing the last honest homeowners out by turning out the lights but except for the fact that those diehards are old and poor they wouldn't be living there anyway and they certainly are too dumb to be trained to sell crack which is the only business in the area that makes any money at all.
Especially when the borrower is defaulting on billions of dollars. Here is a clearer report that actually nails down the details:Quote: rxwineI have no idea why anyone would keep throwing good money after bad, unless you like burning your money.
"ROMULUS, Mich. -- A team led by a state-appointed emergency manager said Friday that Detroit is defaulting on about $2.5 billion in unsecured debt and is asking creditors to take about 10 cents on the dollar of what the city owes them.
Kevyn Orr spent two hours with about 180 bond insurers, pension trustees, union representatives and other creditors in a move to avoid what bankruptcy experts have said would be the largest municipal bankruptcy in U.S. history. Underfunded pension claims likely would get less than the 10 cents on the dollar.
An assessment of the plan's progress will come in the next 30 days or so.
Orr also announced that Detroit stopped paying on its unsecured debt Friday to "conserve cash" for police, fire and other services in the city of 700,000 people. The debt not being paid includes $39 million owed to a certificate of participation.
"We will not pay that today," Orr told reporters after the meeting with creditors at a hotel at Detroit Metropolitan Airport in Romulus. His team said the proposal is the one shot to permanently fix fiscal problems that have made the city insolvent. AP
What city is next? Atlanta is called the "Detroit of the South" but that may take some time.
Quote: AZDuffmanLooks like Detroit finally filed for BK.
What city is next? Atlanta is called the "Detroit of the South" but that may take some time.
Atlanta isn't that poor as a whole though, at least not to Detroit standards. And I lived in Atlanta for 2 years, and the first time I ever heard that phrase is today. Now if you would have said Memphis, then I would be more inclined to agree.
Quote: tringlomaneAtlanta isn't that poor as a whole though, at least not to Detroit standards. And I lived in Atlanta for 2 years, and the first time I ever heard that phrase is today. Now if you would have said Memphis, then I would be more inclined to agree.
Atlanta metro does great. Atlanta proper less so. Saw the phrase a few months back as some outlying suburbs saying "screw all this" to the way it was being run and forming their own incorporated areas. This caused some black group to sue to stop it over voting rights, which was a flimsy at to try to keep them in.
As a guess I would say perhaps like many booming metro areas the city proper is a Potemkin Village with many problems. Again just what I read and think.
Not much different than the bankruptcy courts where its criminals and thugs.Quote: IbeatyouracesDetroit is a joke being run by thugs and criminals.
Quote: treetopbuddyThe impulse of course is to level Detroit, but then that would mean the end for "'Hardcore Pawn" and the country is not ready for that.....
Obama does want to reduce the size of the nuclear stockpile.
Quote: treetopbuddyThe impulse of course is to level Detroit, but then that would mean the end for
"'Hardcore Pawn" and the country is not ready for that.....
Last June when my crew and I was working on a couple of new oil wells just outside Sarnia Ont they asked me to take them to SEE DETROIT... we did just that
they saw 8 mile and were amazed at how many buildings were boarded up, burnt down and of course the others all BARRED UP ... it just amazed them how bad it was on 8 mile.... that was until a took them a few more miles inside the city..... and as your post says impulse to level it.... one of the fellas actually said why don't they just bomb this place and get it over with.
I think most people cant even picture a city in the great United States of America could look like Detroit does. think of some war torn country and well that's what Detroit looks like basically
I topped it off showing them DOWNTOWN which amazed them again.... how alive it was on that sunny Sunday afternoon... but once I pointed out some of the skyscrapers were abandoned they just couldn't believe it
youtube Detroit and see it for yourself in the safety of your house
Quote: treetopbuddyThe impulse of course is to level Detroit, but then that would mean the end for "'Hardcore Pawn" and the country is not ready for that.....
As long as the daughter ends up dating someone besides me I could deal with it. She isn't totally unattractive but that cut under her nose needs to heal.
Quote: coilmanJUDGE says NOT SO FAST
http://www.freep.com/article/20130719/NEWS06/307190075/Michigan-AG-challenges-judge-s-ruling-Detroit-bankruptcy-unconstitutional
Judge also says:
“It’s cheating, sir, and it’s cheating good people who work,” the judge told assistant Attorney General Brian Devlin. “It’s also not honoring the (United States) president, who took (Detroit’s auto companies) out of bankruptcy.”
What does Obama and the auto bailout have to do with this? How do these people get into even an undergraduate college?
