The real Bible Study: Mt. 22:34-40

Quote: Nareed

Ok. Let's say I tell you, "buy this widget or I'll throw you in a dungeon." Even if you did want the widget, would you say you were free to choose it or not?

I sound like a broken record, you don't get it. God is not throwing anyone in a dungeon, we walk in ourselves and lock the door from the inside.

Quote: Nareed

Let's take it by parts:

1) we can make choices that do us harm. Certainly. If I choose to jump off an airplane without a parachute I will die. Further, I would have no one to blame but myself.

2) God isn't merely guiding. He set up, built or created his own dungeon, where he sends such people who, for whatever reason, don't measure up to his standards. We know this place as Hell. He didn't have to do that, it's something he chose to do out of his own free will.

So, we find god saying "love me or suffer eternity in my hell." And you don't see that as coercion? Three is no threat? Maybe god doesn't hold a literal gun when issuing his commandments, but he does hold a metaphorical one.

Do you think there should be no consequences to our actions? Yes it is set up so that hatred, selfishness, and violence lead us to unhappiness just like gravity leads us towards the ground. I don't see how this world is a dungeon because the standard is to love and be loved. Please understand if God was going to give us free will and not force us to love him then out of a radical respect for our freedom, and maybe even as an act of mercy, we needed to have a place where those who chosse to want nothing to do with God could be.

Quote: Nareed

Since happiness is peculiar to each individual, we each must seek our own way. We can ask for and get help and guidance, of course, but no one can tell me, or you "this is what will make you happy." It's a judgment every person must make.

But what does loving god have anytying to do with it?

I think that is a good question. Let's leave God out of the question of happiness for a moment. Would you accept that the second great commandment, Love your neighbor as yourself is essential for happiness? You seem to be going down a slippery path that would lead us to say if happiness for you is kicking puppy dogs and slapping old ladies then go for it. There has to some standard to live up to in order to achieve happiness, some rules that everyone follows if they want to have true happiness. Maybe it is the golden rule that we have to follow to find happiness? Happiness though is not just what I want it to be, as human beings we are all playing by some rules that you or I did not make up and if we don't follow them there are consequences, often times immediate but most certainly later.

Quote: Nareed

No offense, really, but I regard such wishes as highly immoral. Thinking and making rational decisions are what define us as human. relinquishing such responsibilities is relinquishing your humanity.

You can use someone else's judgment when you have reason to, of course. But in order to have reason you first need to think and make rational decisions. Such as consulting a doctor, because you can neither evaluate nor judge the state of your health as well as the doctor can. But you can evaluate and judge the competence of a doctor.

Could not possibly agree more. I put my self under the care of the Divine Physician.

Quote: Nareed

I was going to again say "No offense, but..." except any comment I made would be very offensive.

So in lieu of launching a personal attack, which I told you I wouldn't do, I'll say something else: You've succeeded in making me really angry. I guess by now that ought to make us even.

Thanks for holding back, I think the problem was you took the "you" as speaking to you personally, when that was a plural you, a ustedes. I was offering that little prayer to the whole forum for anyone who might like it and certainly not meant for anyone who would take offense at it. Peace.

Quote: FrGamble

I sound like a broken record, you don't get it. God is not throwing anyone in a dungeon, we walk in ourselves and lock the door from the inside.

Ok, now I can completely understand why Nareed is angry. Are you being serious? God IS throwing us in hell! We walk ourselves in? Why would anyone do this to themselves? I mean really sit and think about this!

Quote: FrGamble

Thanks for holding back,

You're welcome.

Quote:

I think the problem was you took the "you" as speaking to you personally, when that was a plural you, a ustedes.

Not at all.

Suppose I'd seen the prayer written as graffiti on a wall. My urge would be to tear down the wall, grind the bricks to dust, burn the dust to ash, zap the ash with lasers into atoms, split the atoms into subatomic particles, and shoot all that into a black hole.

I say an urge, because I woulnd't do any of that, especially if it wasn't my wall to begin with. Anger is a useless emotion once you get past its informative value. And if there is one lesson to learn in life, it's never to act on anger.

Quote: HotBlonde

Ok, now I can completely understand why Nareed is angry. Are you being serious? God IS throwing us in hell! We walk ourselves in? Why would anyone do this to themselves? I mean really sit and think about this!

To Christians, their religion is a Parker Bros board game, like I
already mentioned. Jesus is the 'get out going to hell' card. There
are all kinds of rules, you go thru life and follow them, just
like in Monopoly. If you screw up, you end up broke. But
you can always draw the Jesus card and get one more chance.
But be careful, its a rigged game. It turns out that in the end, we
really are all equal, there are no winners and losers.

Quote: HotBlonde

BTW, has anyone else noticed the Wizard's abscence on this thread?

I take his silence, and the fact that he hasn't moved the thread to Free Speech, to mean we're conducting ourselves within the rules he lay down.

But I want to take the opportunity to thank the good father for his patience and restraint. I'm sure that, at the very least, I have provided him with ample frustration, if not anger. These kinds of arguments are like that.

I would also like to note the fact that the Catholic Church has achieved a great measure of tolerance to other views and beliefs. As I mentioned earlier, it has successfully adapted to modern times (this isn't necessarily a good thing, from my perspective, but it is a welcome attitude in any case). For instance, I doubt this kind of discussion would be possible with a Mullah. Most of all I doubt I'd be brave enough to risk frustrating one, much less angering him.

And for this I largely credit the late Pope John Paul II. My feelings on his faith notwithstanding, the man earned my respect for leading by example and for building a real rapproachemnt with other faiths, especially with the Jewish community. It matters he was a Pole. Ask a Holocaust survivor, particularly ask one who knew him before WWII. Because he was a tolerant and decent man even then.

Now back to your regualrly scheduled flame war.

Yes, I too want to thank FrGamble for being well-behaved. I've witnessed Christians in the past get very defensive and furious over these types of discussions. I think he's handled himself well through all of this.

Quote: HotBlonde

God IS throwing us in hell!

Churches don't really talk about that anymore. Hellfire and
brimstone sermons have waned to none in the last 30 years.
Its a fast way to get your congregation heading for the door,
its way too negative. Now its all about how Jesus is your best
buddy, and its about love love love. It makes people feel all
warm and soothed and they'll drop a lot more in the plate
when its passed around. This subject has been researched to
death by the church, they aren't stupid.

Quote: EvenBob

To Christians, their religion is a Parker Bros board game, like I
already mentioned. Jesus is the 'get out going to hell' card. There
are all kinds of rules, you go thru life and follow them, just
like in Monopoly. If you screw up, you end up broke. But
you can always draw the Jesus card and get one more chance.
But be careful, its a rigged game. It turns out that in the end, we
really are all equal, there are no winners and losers.

I do have to give you props on this comment. Very creative, and I especially like the last sentence.

Quote: HotBlonde

Yes, I too want to thank FrGamble for being well-behaved. I've witness Christians in the past get very defensive and furious over these types of discussions. I think he's handled himself well through all of this.

Thanks it has not been easy, but once again I am finding something to agree with Nareed on, acting on anger doesn't do any good.

Quote: HotBlonde

I do have to give you props on this comment.

The religion converts very well to board games, there
are probably a hundred of them or more. Here's a cute
one from the 60's.

Journeys of St Paul

Quote: FrGamble

I sound like a broken record, you don't get it. God is not throwing anyone in a dungeon, we walk in ourselves and lock the door from the inside.

I don't think we're speaking the same languge.

So let me introduce you to a hierarchy of morality:

1) Human beings have a choice to act either morally or immorally
2) Animals do not have such a choice, because morality is beyond their limited intelectual capabilities. Therefore any actions by an animal are amoral, which is to say outside the sphere of morality.
3) Inanimate objects simply are, that is, they exist and nothing more. They do not act, but rather they undergo changes. This classification includes all natural processes and the laws of nature themselves.

So, let's consider the followign examples:

1) You're sitting placidly at home when a meteorite crashes through the roof, hits you on the head and kills you. That's just hwo things are. the meteorite wasn't being moral or immoral, it was merely being. It didn't move to strike you, it was led there by multiple events too numerous to list.

2) You're hiking in the African Savanah, alone, when a hungry cheetah comes after you. You run, but agaisnt the fastest animal on land you don't stand a chance. It catches you, kills you and makes a meal of yoru remains. That's an example of an amoral action. the cheetah clearly acted, and moreover chose to act. It might have decided you were too big to chase, for example. But it never considered, nor could it, whether killing and eating you was right or wrong. It has no choice because it is a carnivore and it must kill in order to survive.

3) A thug jumps you on an alley, shoots you dead and takes your purse. That's an immoral action, beacuse the hoodloom in question has the intellecutal ability to know his actions are wrong. He might ahvem for example, threatened you with his gun and demanded your money. That would slo be wrong, but not as wrong as killing you. He might have just snatched your purse, which would be even less wrong, but still wrong. He might have begged money off you, which woulnd't be wrong at all He might have asked whether you ahd any odd jobs he could do for money, which would have been right.

Now, where does a being more powerful than a human being, but with the same free will rank? I take the phrase that god made man in his image and likeness, to mean god is seen as having intelligence and free will, and being capable of choosing rigth from wrong as well. So we assume god, too, can do rigth and wrong, and mroeover has an obligation to choose right over wrong. Since he is also seen as lording it over man, he has a responsibility to lead by example and always do right.

So, he can choose what to do with people in the afterlife, assuming there is one. Heaven and Hell are not things that just exist. And god is not an animal who can only act on his nature. So god chooses to reward those who follow him with eternal bliss, or eternal reward, and to punish those who don't with eternal torture, or so I am led to believe.

That is one possible choice. God might have made another. He could, for instance, set up a Heaven for his followers but a raw, unformed palce for the rest, and let them fend for themselves. For that matter, too, since his powers are unlimited, he might "fail" those who don't meaure up and send them back to Earth to live another life and, so to speak, do the course over again (BTW does any faith believe this?)

Yet, it bears repeating, his choice was reward or punishment, allegedly for all eternity (the term strikes me as unfair, and I'm willing to give believers the benefit of the doubt).

If we cannot understand each other on this, though, i fear no understanding is possible.

Quote:

I think that is a good question. Let's leave God out of the question of happiness for a moment. Would you accept that the second great commandment, Love your neighbor as yourself is essential for happiness? You seem to be going down a slippery path that would lead us to say if happiness for you is kicking puppy dogs and slapping old ladies then go for it.

No to the first question. And shame on you for dredging up that old libel. Next you'll be accusig me of playing slots or, worse even, keno!

But more on that later.

Quote: EvenBob

It turns out that in the end, we
really are all equal, there are no winners and losers.

If God was political, what would he be? I think EB's on the right track, so is God communist?

Quote: Nareed

Anger is a useless emotion once you get past its informative value. And if there is one lesson to learn in life, it's never to act on anger.

Nay. 90% of my production is fueled by anger. I know of not one other energy that has provided me with such power. They key is to process it while it's still fresh, before it breaks down into it's more useless and harmful form - Hate.

Quote: HotBlonde

Yes, I too want to thank FrGamble for being well-behaved. I've witness Christians in the past get very defensive and furious over these types of discussions. I think he's handled himself well through all of this.

This goes both ways. I have never in life seen discussions like these. I think the "flame meter" has only gotten up to "testy" before parties asserted some self control and kept on the subject. It is absolutely fascinating.

I wish to participate more, but it's coming so fast and furious I've only been sitting back, swallowed in introspection. Keep it up!

Edit:

Quote: Nareed

For that matter, too, since his powers are unlimited, he might "fail" those who don't meaure up and send them back to Earth to live another life and, so to speak, do the course over again (BTW does any faith believe this?)

This is nearly identical to a belief I pondered in my youth, that your "soul" was like a puzzle. If you did good, you got the pieces that signified those good deeds. If you died without completing the puzzle, you were reincarnated at the same "puzzle level" and had to continue attempting to aquire them all. Life was your test and your punishment. Once you did, and died, you went to Heaven/Nirvana. I think, while I was conducting an honest thought experiment, that this idea was heavily, though subconsciously, influenced by video games. But I do think there is a faith that has a similar idea. I remember grazing over it and thinking "wait a minute...". Something from the East, though I can't recall the name...

Quote: Nareed

I don't think we're speaking the same languge.

So, he can choose what to do with people in the afterlife, assuming there is one. Heaven and Hell are not things that just exist. And god is not an animal who can only act on his nature. So god chooses to reward those who follow him with eternal bliss, or eternal reward, and to punish those who don't with eternal torture, or so I am led to believe.

I'm afraid we might be speaking different languages. God does not punish us for not following him any more than gravity punishes us for jumping out of a plane without a parachute. God knows, and I think we all implictly know, that it is not a good idea to skydive without a parachute. God wants us to avoid the awful consequences of doing something wrong. By the way I'm glad you recognize that there is such a thing as right and wrong and that it is not in the eye of the beholder. God will do everything possible to help us make the right choices but there is a line He will not cross, namely he will not force us to do anything. So you see (I hope!) that God CANNOT chose what to do with people in the afterlife because He must respect our free will and the choices we made in life. Unless you want God to stomp on your freedom, but you strike me as someone who values their freedom very much, as you should.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm afraid we might be speaking different languages.

Let's leave it at that, then.

Quote: EvenBob

To Christians, their religion is a Parker Bros board game, like I
already mentioned. Jesus is the 'get out going to hell' card. There
are all kinds of rules, you go thru life and follow them, just
like in Monopoly. If you screw up, you end up broke. But
you can always draw the Jesus card and get one more chance.
But be careful, its a rigged game. It turns out that in the end, we
really are all equal, there are no winners and losers.

I'm a little surprised that in a forum dedicated to the discussion of games and how to make the best bets possible the comparison of life to a game is such a negative thought. Life obviously has rules and we are all trying to do the best we can. Maybe the negativity comes from the fact that games have an inherent purpose to them and a rulebook that we can't change because we don't like it.

When you said there are no winners and losers is that because you believe there is nothing after we die? That would indeed be a pretty crappy game. I'd like to play a game where we don't compete with each other and everyone can win. Check out this game: http://www.ungame.com/

Quote: FrGamble

I'm a little surprised that in a forum dedicated to the discussion of games and how to make the best bets possible the comparison of life to a game is such a negative thought.

Its not a negative thought, its an observation. It has
rules much like the ones you read on the underside
of the lid in a board game. Its set up like a board
game, with rewards and punishments. And the inevitable
'get out of trouble' card.

Quote: FrGamble

When you said there are no winners and losers is that because you believe there is nothing after we die?

After out body can no longer sustain the spirit it
holds, it goes to where it was before we were born.
How else? Its an enclosed system that we impose
our own silly rules and superstitions on.

Quote: FrGamble

I think that is a good question. Let's leave God out of the question of happiness for a moment. Would you accept that the second great commandment, Love your neighbor as yourself is essential for happiness?

As I was saying, no it isn't. In fact it's the contrary.

To begin with love is a very personal, very selfish emotion. It's the highest form of recognition given to others one values. That's the first flaw with your second great commandment: love others for what reason? because they exist? Why not love everything, then? I can see sense in a commandment to love a god who claims he's responsible for my existence. I don't believe any of it, but if it were true it would make sense.

Then, too, there are different intensities to love. beginning with "like," figuratively speaking, to "affection," to "passion," even, perhaps, to "fervor." These terms are meant to be illustrative, not absolute, but everyone ranks the people and things they love in a fashion or another.

There are people I love because of what they bring into my life. I'm happy to know them, to share time with them, and I hope I bring as much into their lives. But I do not, and cannot, love any random stranger, let alone all random strangers, just ebacuse someone says I should.

Of course, most people in the world are engaged in some sort of productive work, and things are so interconnected that it's likely any random stranger I see has contributed something of value to my life, and viceversa. Not directly, but through a convoluted path of interconnected actions. This means I should, and I do, hold them in some esteem and that I respect their rights, lives and property. I do not, and should not, freely take anything from other people without offering something of value in exchange. This means I do not steal from other people, be it taking a coin froma beggasr's cup or downlaoding pirate copies of Microsoft products. IT's all theft and it's all wrong.

But love has to be earned.

Quote:

There has to some standard to live up to in order to achieve happiness, some rules that everyone follows if they want to have true happiness. Maybe it is the golden rule that we have to follow to find happiness? Happiness though is not just what I want it to be, as human beings we are all playing by some rules that you or I did not make up and if we don't follow them there are consequences, often times immediate but most certainly later.

There are standars, but these vary from person to person.

What is very important is that the conditions exist to allow everyone to pursue their path to happiness. Three thigns are very important in this regard: 1) liberty, 2) the recognition of individual rigths and 3) peace.

Liberty is self-evident. You can't pursue anything, let alone happiness, if you're not free to do as you please.

Recognition of individual rigths means knowing where the limits of your freedom lie. You should be free to do anything you want, as long as you don't breach the rights of other people. Meaning you do not steal from other people, and you dammned well don't assault, kidnap, rape or murder other people. This is obvious. Less obvious is you do not impose your will, your standards, your views or your moral code on others, either.

You can try to persuade them to accept your views, standards and morality, either by offering something concrete in return, or by convicning them your way is better, or will suit them better, or will benefit them, or is the right way to go, etc. But there is a big difference from, say, preaching your religion to people who are free to listen ot not to listen, and passing a law, for example, requiring everyone to practice your religion (I'm not claiming this is your purpose, or that of the Church; it's only used as an example).

Peace means being free of threats to your life and property. This includes an absence of war and armed conflict, of course, but also the absence of crime and other ways by which people may try to use force violently on you.

Of these three conditions, I'd say in most of the West, including much of Latin America, the first two are present to a larger degree than in the rest of the world, though not to the degree they should be. The third is also present at, mostly, an acceptable degree for now, except for some high-crime areas.

I need to leave now. I'll finish it when I get back.

Ok. So why not love everyone? My question is why love everyone? What reason is there to love a random stranger, not to mention all of them. Furhter, what does loving them do for me? What does it do for them? I know what drives me to love my firends, and what I and them get out of it. What about the guy playing craps next to me? I could find out, and there may be something. But is everyone expected to strike up conversations with all strangers one meets?

You can't love someone you don't know anything about. How are you supposed to love everyone, and not only that but love them as you love yourself? Let alone how are you suppsoed to love thieves, rapists, murderers and other, if you'll pardon the expression, riff-raff. How about just epople you don't like, or who are not nice to you, or who are mean, etc?

You can love, in the form of "liking" people you don't know much about. One subset of people I love that way are people who speak or write passionately about things they love, even when they're things I don't care for or even know about.

I don't care much for cars, but I love reading Jay Leno's column on Popular Mechanics about his car collection. He ranges all over the place, from means for obtaining parts, to unusual cars, to repairs and mods he's amde, etc. But he does so with such delight in what he's doing, and such apssion, that I enjoy his short essays tremendously, and I love reading them.

Closer to home, there are games I don't care for or haven't played, but some of the people who post about them here do so in a way that brings me much enjoyment. I won't mention names for fear I'll elave anyone out, but I would like to take the opportunity to thank you all for posting here.

In fact, there are only a handful of subjects that don't produce this loving response from me, no matter how passionate or delighted the writer is about it. Things like night clubs (sorry, Jim!), soccer (not sorry), fish and sea food (with one exception), and religion. No doubt lots of people can, and do, enjoy and love these things, and no doubt they derive some benefit from them, some form of enjoyment or delight, too, and some form of satisfaction. good for them, if it's so, but such things simply don't have any positive effect on me; qutie the contrary, actually.

Now I suppose FrGamble will come up with a compeltely different definition of love.

BTW, how's your screen anme supposed to be pronounced? In Spanish the Fr. abreviation is something like "Frai," "Fra," or "Fraile." At least I've heard it used that way. I assume in English it comes out as "Father," but I'm far from sure.

Thanks.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm a little surprised that in a forum dedicated to the discussion of games and how to make the best bets possible the comparison of life to a game is such a negative thought.

And I'm surprised that in a gambling forum no one has brought up Pascal's Wager.

Quote:

Maybe the negativity comes from the fact that games have an inherent purpose to them and a rulebook that we can't change because we don't like it.

I should think when comparing a game negatively to life, it's because games are diversions not meant to be taken seriously.

Quote: Nareed

To begin with love is a very personal, very selfish emotion.

I wanted to stop reading after this sentence but I always appreciate your efforts Nareed. It is indeed clear we speak a different language and have different definitions of things.

I've got to start working on my homily soon, thanks again everybody.

Quote: FrGamble

I wanted to stop reading after this sentence but I always appreciate your efforts Nareed.

Thank you. I can't say I'm surprised.

Here is the homily for this weekend that some of your comments helped me with. It became clear at the end that I might need to better define love so that took a big chunk of my remarks:

Before Cardinal Ratzinger was elected to become Pope Benedict XVI he was head of something called the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, aka CDF. He was the main watchdog for the Vatican concerning teachings about doctrine, faith, and morals. He was good at his job because of his incredible intellect and deep understanding of theology. He was so good at his job that he was sometimes referred to as Cardinal Rottweiler instead of Ratzinger. When he was made our German Shepherd, I was a little nervous. As a young priest finishing my studies in Rome I dreaded when his first encyclical would come out. You see a Pope’s first encyclical, which is a special letter written to the whole world, is a watershed moment that often gives to us the theme of a particular pontificate. This encyclical would no doubt become the topic of our discussions in class and would have to be somehow woven into my already half written thesis. Knowing that Cardinal Ratzinger was one of the greatest minds in the world made me doubt that I would not even be able to understand the title of the coming encyclical much less its content.

The fateful day came and the title of the first encyclical of new Holy Father Benedict XVI was…”God is Love.” What?!? “God is Love”, that is second grade material. We are currently teaching to our kids preparing for first reconciliation that God is love. God is love? Come on can this be true! I was relieved and eager to read. What I discovered was an easy read with a novel and brilliant discussion about love followed by some practical suggestions of how we can better put love into practice in our daily lives.

I think it’s important for us to talk briefly about what the Pope says about love if we are going to understand these two great commandments: Love God and Love our neighbor. First, what is love?

Like Eskimos who have many words for snow the Greeks have four different words for love. C.S. Lewis wrote a great book called, “The Four Loves” that is worth a read. In this letter the Pope focuses on two Greek words for love: eros and agape.

Agape is the word for love used most often in the New Testament. This word Agape became almost synonymous with Christianity from the very beginning and what we are doing today was known thousands of years ago as “the Agape Feast”. Agape is sometimes considered the perfection and purification of love. It is love in its altruistic sense, where we love something so much that we are willing to sacrifice for it and not expect, nor desire, anything in return. Our only concern is for our beloved.

Eros is not used at all in the New Testament and for far too long Pope Benedict says we as Christians shied away from eros, from which we get the word erotic. Eros is a passionate love that intoxicates us and gives us great pleasure from the one whom we love. We will do anything to be with them, not for selfless reasons, but because we derive great pleasure from even being in the presence of our beloved. The Pope reminds us that this is a natural and healthy part of human love and he goes on to rehabilitate the passionate eros as part of love as we understand it and experience it as humans.

You see love in the Agape sense is beautiful; it is the husband who will not leave his wife’s side in the hospital, it is the mother who gets up untold amount of times in the night to comfort her crying child, it is the organ donor who gives a kidney to save the life of a stranger. However, we are not built for this Agape type of love all the time. We would get burnt out if we didn’t get a glance from our loved one through the oxygen mask mouthing the words I love you or the gentle smile of a baby who knows now for the hundredth time tonight that mommy will be there. Agape needs to be supplemented with some eros. We need to receive as human beings some pleasure from our heroic acts of love or we can dry out very quickly. Just as dangerous of course is living too long with the eros mentality of love. When we thirst after the pleasure we receive from being with someone we can easily begin to turn them into an object or superstition. We rob them of dignity as we use them for our own pleasure. So in summary, true human love needs the injection of passion and pleasure (called eros) into the high calling of self-sacrifice for another (which is the highest form of love there is called agape). We cannot have either one or the other we need both eros and agape.

How does this apply to our great commandments today? Well sometimes either loving God or others is going to require Agape or sometimes it is going to have the characteristics of eros. For example you come to Church and you are bored by an already too long homily and you don’t get the prayers, etc. However, you are here because you came to give your time, talent, and treasure to the Lord, because He deserves it and not asking yourself what is in it for me? Loving God often requires of us the highest form of love – Agape. Then my friends there are those times, whether it happens here at Church or in your personal place of prayer, when you become so overcome with the amazing love of God, when you feel connected with the one who made the universe and you feel and know your purpose and receive the rush of encouragement and energy to get it done, these are moments of the passionate love of God. When you love and serve your neighbor there are times when it is a chore, but you do it because it is what God commands you to do and you are showing the highest example of charity. Then there are those times when you serve your community and receive that deep peace and fulfillment that you have done something good for someone and made a difference, which is a pleasurable gift that hopefully brings with it an increased passion for service.

Sometimes you might not think you are loving God because you don’t get the warm fuzzies. Sometimes you feel like you are breaking the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself because you seemingly get nothing out of it. This does not mean the absence of love but could be an example of true Agape. Persevere and as Pope Benedict XVI reminds us there will be many moments in your life that you will be treated to the unmatchable pleasure that is also part of your calling to love God and neighbor. True Love, like the type of love we are commanded to have in today’s Gospel is like a series of cycles where the passionate and pleasurable eros leads us to the sacrificial and highest form of love – agape. So as we recieve Jesus in this Agape feast, who gives Himself completely to us in the Eucharist, let us strive to love God and neighbor in the true sense of love laid out for us in that special encyclical, "God is love."

Hi Father. Let me say again that I enjoy your participation in the forum and hope you'll stick around awhile. My first reaction to this is that lately it seems like you're trying to hit a grand slam with every homily. Especially this one. The fans certainly want to see that once in a while. However, personally, I'd like to see more attention given to a specific area of Christianity once in a while.

One could talk about the big picture all day long, so let me just pick one sentence, "When you love and serve your neighbor there are times when it is a chore, but you do it because it is what God commands you to do and you are showing the highest example of charity."

I thought that god loved a cheerful giver? Didn't god say to somebody who bragged about his good deeds at the gates of heaven, "Your righteousness is like filthy rags to me." I'm all in favor of a good deed, but I'd prefer it to be because of the love for your fellow man, as opposed to fear of the man in the sky. I think if the motive that "god commands you to do it" it is all the more likely to seem like a chore. The recipient is right here, why can't the reason be just to help a fellow human being? Didn't you write in an old post that you did some mission work and felt you got more out of it than the ones you were supposed to help? I would like to think this sense of satisfaction was due to helping our fellow man than pleasing the man upstairs. In other words, I thought god appreciated a good deed if it was a result of grace, not because the person doing it was trying to earn points. ¿Entiendes?

Quote: Wizard

My first reaction to this is that lately it seems like you're trying to hit a grand slam with every homily.

One could talk about the big picture all day long, so let me just pick one sentence, "When you love and serve your neighbor there are times when it is a chore, but you do it because it is what God commands you to do and you are showing the highest example of charity."

I thought that god loved a cheerful giver? Didn't god say to somebody who bragged about his good deeds at the gates of heaven, "Your good deeds are like filthy rags to me." I'm all in favor of a good deed, but I'd prefer it to be because of the love for your fellow man, as opposed to fear of the man in the sky. I think if the motive that "god commands you to do it" it is all the more likely to seem like a chore. The recipient is right here, why can't the reason be just to help a fellow human being? Didn't you write in an old post that you did some mission work and felt you got more out of it than the ones you were supposed to help? I would like to think this sense of satisfaction was due to helping our fellow man than pleasing the man upstairs. In other words, I thought god appreciated a good deed if it was a result of grace, not because the person doing it was trying to earn points. ¿Entiendes?

You are right I am no Albert Pujols. Sometimes I look at homiles like a batting average, a good priest is batting around .333. I might have been swinging for the fences on this one in particular and got lost in the description of love and not enough about any one specific area.

Si, I understand your good points. My thought is that God does love a cheerful giver, but sometimes I feel we need to check our motives and ask ourselves, "am I doing this service because it makes me cheerful or am I doing it because I am called to love God and love my neighbor?" I think the rubber hits the road for us in regard to love when we do something not because we know we will get great satisfaction out of doing it, but rather for the raw reason that it is the right thing. That is why I consider it the highest example of charity when we serve our fellow man not because we are trying to feel good ourselves nor to earn points with the big guy upstairs, but rather just because I know I should. This protects us from the feelings that would have kept me locked away in my room during mission work because I didn't feel like getting up and walking to another village. It also keeps us from falling into the old trap of good works versus grace by reminding ourselves that I am not doing this to earn my salvation but only because it is my duty as a Christian and God expects nothing less of me.

I will readily admit that the end result of serving our neighbor in my experience has almost always been feelings of great joy, recieiving much more happiness than I could have possibly given. However, sometimes I wonder am I doing this just because it makes me so happy? If there was an instance where I helped my fellow man and did not recieve any consolation would I regret doing it? I hope my love for neighbor would be strong enough where this resulting feeling would not matter to me, and that is agape in my book.

I just split off lots of posts that seemed to have gone astray from Matthew 22:34-40 to Miscellaneous comments not having much to do with FrG's bible study. Please don't participate in this thread unless you're willing to make an effort to stay on topic.

Quote: FrGamble

I think the rubber hits the road for us in regard to love when we do something not because we know we will get great satisfaction out of doing it, but rather for the raw reason that it is the right thing. That is why I consider it the highest example of charity when we serve our fellow man not because we are trying to feel good ourselves nor to earn points with the big guy upstairs, but rather just because I know I should.
I will readily admit that the end result of serving our neighbor in my experience has almost always been feelings of great joy, recieiving much more happiness than I could have possibly given. However, sometimes I wonder am I doing this just because it makes me so happy? If there was an instance where I helped my fellow man and did not recieve any consolation would I regret doing it? I hope my love for neighbor would be strong enough where this resulting feeling would not matter to me, and that is agape in my book.

I like what you have to say on this. Charity/service are some of the greatest lessons we can teach our children. When our parish puts together boxes for the poor and elderly around the holidays I get an extreme amount of satisfaction selecting items at the store. The satisfaction that we are helping, albeit in a small way means a lot to our family and I like the fact that they are anonymous because I imagine it can be a blow to pride to have to ask for help or food.

I am curious if you have seen "The power of Forgiveness" ? I found it very moving but must admit for a lot of reasons this is something I have struggled with a lot (along with the rest of the world).

The Power of Forgiveness
Have you done any homilies on forgiveness, I would love to see them if you have.

Quote: Wizard

I just split off lots of posts that seemed to have gone astray from Matthew 22:34-40 to Miscellaneous comments not having much to do with FrG's bible study. Please don't participate in this thread unless you're willing to make an effort to stay on topic.

I personally didn't see anyone going off topic. Maybe you should just shut down this whole thread altogether then. It's nice that you want to protect FrGamble and his religious beliefs but I didn't see any reason to feel the need to edit the comments. But I'm assuming you're going to delete this comment as well.

The Wizard didn't delete the comments. He just transferred them to another thread.

I'm just trying to keep the discussion on topic. I've split threads lots of times.

Quote: HotBlonde

I personally didn't see anyone going off topic.

Perhaps you simply didn't notice the tangents prior to being split into their own thread...

Quote: Scotty71

I am curious if you have seen "The power of Forgiveness" ? I found it very moving but must admit for a lot of reasons this is something I have struggled with a lot (along with the rest of the world).

The Power of Forgiveness
Have you done any homilies on forgiveness, I would love to see them if you have.

Cool link, thanks.

I found your post very moving and I went to try and dig up some homilies and talks about forgiveness. It is one of the hardest things we are called to do and also the most important. I also believe it is often misunderstood. I've given retreats about forgiveness and my notes are all hard copies, so instead of boring you with too much writing maybe I can give a few highlights or important points.

One of the biggest mistakes we make is trying to forgive like God. When God forgives us it is perfect. Our relationship with God is completely healed, the halo is shining on our heads again, and our sin is wiped away. He can do that because He is perfect. We are not perfect. While we can and should rejoice in recieving God's forgiveness, we can end up hurting ourselves trying to imitate it. Let me explain. We have all heard the saying, "forgive and forget", well that doesn't work for the human being who has been deeply hurt by someone. It can even be dangerous. I'll never forget someone saying to me that they had not forgiven the person who raped them because they were not friends. They cannot, nor should not, ever be friends! In my opinion they should never see each other again, but that does NOT mean forgiveness can't happen.

Forgiveness is freedom from the action done upon us and the resulting pain it continues to cause. My friend's dad was bit by a brown recluse spider once. Nasty thing. Its poision stays in the wound and continues to eat away at its victim. Thank God he didn't let it go too long or he could have lost his arm. The poison of evil is like that and can continue to fester and cause us harm if we don't take care of it with forgiveness.

So how do we forgive? As already mentioned you don't try to forget it, in fact you have to do the exact opposite. We have to acknowledge the pain it has caused and work through it. Acts horrible enough do indeed change us and we have to wrestle with the fact that things are not ever going to be the same again. In some ways it is like grief. When my loved one dies, I can pretend for a while that things haven't changed but I'm just fooling myself. I have to go through the sad reality and be confident that I will come out the other end different but okay. It's like having to trudge through a nasty bog at times, but the shores of forgiveness are on the other side. We are a different person when we reach those shores. In the journey hopefully the pain has been dealt with and the anger has lost its grip on us and we can continue our life better and not bitter. This is analogous to Christ's walk to Calvary...

One of the things that often die in the process of forgiveness are relationships. That is sad, especially if it was a relationship we enjoyed at times. Far too often people cling to relationships that have so much pain attached to them because they fear what life would be like without that person. The bad guys thrive on this mentality and use it as a weapon to continue to do awful things knowing their victims are trapped by the fear of ending a relationship. That irational fear people have is a fear of freedom. No relationship at all is better than a relationship of toture.

At this time I usually talk about the freeing, joyful, and life giving and restoring relationship we can all have with Jesus Christ. Again these are just some thoughts I think are most important about forgiveness. They are like sketches and not the full picture and there are many nuances that can be drawn out.

By the way some of these outline points were from a retreat for those who really had some big things to forgive in themselves and others so I hope it is not too heavy. Also I should explain that we could have done a PM, but your concerns about forgiveness are much more universal than usually people admit.