The real Bible Study: Mt. 22:34-40

Here is this coming weekend's Gospel passage, please help with your good comments and questions. Thanks!

When the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees,
they gathered together, and one of them,
a scholar of the law tested him by asking,
"Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?"
He said to him,
"You shall love the Lord, your God,
with all your heart,
with all your soul,
and with all your mind.
This is the greatest and the first commandment.
The second is like it:
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."

Quote: FrGamble

"You shall love the Lord, your God,
with all your heart,
with all your soul,
and with all your mind.
This is the greatest and the first commandment.

That's an old one. In two of the three daily Jewish prayers, there is a passage rfom a book of the Torah called "Shema Israel." I think it can be translated as:

Listen, O Israel, God is our god, God is one (the name used is not "God," but is often translated as "God")

It follows with: You shall love God your god (I swear that's what it says), with all your heart, and all your soul, and your full self (or words to that effect; it could be with all your mind).

Fine, but the passage also instructs the usage of symbols to remind you of this, including placing such symbols on your forehead and in the entrance to your house and your cities. So Jesus was remiss in this comandment. But that's a trivial matter, really.

My question is: why?

Why does god need to be loved that way? Or why do people need to love god that way? It seems unhealthy and obsessive. And if you love god with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind, where does that leave everyone else in the universe? your spouse, your children, your friends, your pets? How much can one love them? More important, when? If you're dedicating all youa re to god, there's neither room nor time for anyone else.

Quote:

The second is like it:
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Which neighbor? under what conditions? Does it matter what your neighbor does? Do you love a child molester as yourself? Do you love Steve Jobs as much as a child molester? Worse yet, do you love the children molested by a pedophile as much as the pedophile himself?

Unless I've missed something, these commandments can also be expressed more simply as The Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

On the message board for my church (yeah, the church that does not believe in God), The Golden Rule was discussed at length a couple years ago. The primary conclusion we came up with is that all religions, theist and non-theist, have some type of rule that can be equated with The Golden Rule.

Further, The Golden Rule itself can be condensed into one word: Behave.

Golden rule: He who has all the gold, rules.

Quote: FrGamble

Here is this coming weekend's Gospel passage, please help with your good comments and questions. Thanks!

When the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees,
they gathered together, and one of them,
a scholar of the law tested him by asking,
"Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?"
He said to him,
"You shall love the Lord, your God,
with all your heart,
with all your soul,
and with all your mind.
This is the greatest and the first commandment.
The second is like it:
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."

FrGamble-
Not sure if this directly applies, going back to my 9th grade theology class with Brother P. I recall a passage about love which becomes redundant in the Bible but it is my understanding that the ancient languages (Hebrew, Sumerian etc..) had a tough translation into Greek and some of the nuances were lost again to Latin and Ultimately english. I think it was when Jesus asked Peter if he loved him three times which got lost into Agape, Agape, Agape when the real meaning was much different as in body, mind, soul.

I think the passage above is the crux of what Christianity ought to be about. Good deeds become infectious and loving your neighbor is a great place to "pay it forward" I think the literal context is too stiff, who is your neighbor? I think of it as anyone I come in contact with. I think it is also about being the bigger person when conflict and opportunity arises, instead of first asking how does this affect me the question really should be how does this affect the others around me and at the end of the day is this the right decision/path for all involved.

If you aren't centered on:
1. What you believe
2. How those beliefs are going to impact others positively in your day to day interactions.
You will have a hard time accepting the rest of the commandments because the first two mentioned really are the building blocks of one's guiding principles and how you treat your fellow man/woman.

Quote: Nareed

That's an old one. In two of the three daily Jewish prayers, there is a passage rfom a book of the Torah called "Shema Israel." I think it can be translated as:

Listen, O Israel, God is our god, God is one (the name used is not "God," but is often translated as "God")

It follows with: You shall love God your god (I swear that's what it says), with all your heart, and all your soul, and your full self (or words to that effect; it could be with all your mind).

Almost -- the Shema typically translated as "Hear, O Israel: the Lord is our God, the Lord is One". Transliterated, "Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai echad". In Hebrew, the tetragrammaton yod-hey-vov-hey is pronounced "Adonai" ("Lord") during prayer, but that's a different word than "Eloheinu" (our God). See this version of Deut. 6:4 with both English and Hebrew.

The v'ahavta which follows (Deut 6:5-9) is the passage quoted in Matthew. Jesus only quotes the first line, but the remainder continues as you suggest: Deut 6:8 is the origin of the Orthodox practice of wearing tefillin (prayer boxes) and Deut 6:9 is the origin of the mezuzah (which contains this text from Deuteronomy).

Quote: FrGamble

Here is this coming weekend's Gospel passage, please help with your good comments and questions. Thanks!

When the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees,
they gathered together, and one of them,
a scholar of the law tested him by asking,
"Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?"
He said to him,
"You shall love the Lord, your God,
with all your heart,
with all your soul,
and with all your mind.
This is the greatest and the first commandment.
The second is like it:
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."

This sounds like a repurposing of the story when a non-Jew came to the rabbi Hillel and sarcastically asked him to teach him the Torah while standing on one foot. Hillel responded "That which is hateful to you, do not do unto others. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Now go and study the commentary if you wish." It is said that the man who asked the question was so impressed that he did indeed study the Torah and converted to Judaism.

I say "repurposing" because Hillel died in 10CE, at least a decade or two before the passage in Matthew 22 would have taken place.

Quote: MathExtremist

Almost -- the Shema typically translated as "Hear, O Israel: the Lord is our God, the Lord is One". Transliterated, "Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai echad".

Well, according to my very rusty Hebrew, you're right. But according to the Orthodox busybodies who kept spouting theology through my father's shiva, words like elohim, adonai, ha makom, ha shem, and plenty more, all mean "God." When I asked one of them whether the phrase "Adonai eloheinu," then means "God is our God," he said yes. <shrug> I thougth they meant, in order, god, my lord, the place and the name, but I don't claim expertise in theology.

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In Hebrew, the tetragrammaton yod-hey-vov-hey is pronounced "Adonai" ("Lord") during prayer,

You know, it took me a while to realize you were spelling Hebrew letters :) In Spanish the're transliterated as yud, hey, vav, etc.

Quote: FrGamble

"You shall love the Lord, your God,
with all your heart,
with all your soul,

But there's nothing lovable about god. In order
to love anyone, even a pet, they have to have
lovable qualities. God has none, he's an abstract
thought. He has no body, no personality, no anything.
How do you love that?

Quote: FrGamble

Here is this coming weekend's Gospel passage, please help with your good comments and questions

For believers this is really tossing a softball, the rank and file of Christians really loving these passages for sure. Which is not to say that this bunch of hardball players here will play it that way; alas, that includes me. How can I dispute that the teaching isnt right on the money? But for me my understanding of God has placed Him very Aloof... it has been said this is not different from being Holy, and I can accept that. I picture the nature of God as incomprehensible to humans. Putting all these things together, it would be quite an accomplishment for me to have the kind of relationship described in this first commandment. I fall short.

As for the Golden Rule, I can embrace that, and certainly believe it to be at the heart of the religion. That other religions have this and predate Christianity with it, does not diminish it for me.

Quote: MathExtremist

This sounds like a repurposing of the story when a non-Jew came to the rabbi Hillel and sarcastically asked him to teach him the Torah while standing on one foot. Hillel responded "That which is hateful to you, do not do unto others. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Now go and study the commentary if you wish." It is said that the man who asked the question was so impressed that he did indeed study the Torah and converted to Judaism.

I say "repurposing" because Hillel died in 10CE, at least a decade or two before the passage in Matthew 22 would have taken place.

Thanks to M.Ex. for mentioning Hillel's response. It reminds me that Jesus's phrasing in this passage is active. Followers are reminded that the command is to "love your neighbors". Contrast this with Hillel's response to, "do not do (hateful things) unto others".

Jesus' reminder of the command signals a shift in the world view of believers. They are to move away from rule and practice that institutionalized the protection of external cleanliness and the apprearance of purity (but actually accomplishing neither.) Instead, they are to pile heaping mounds of Love on their "neighbors".

This brings up the question:

When Jews and Muslisms were burned at the stake, tortured or expelled from Spain, were the Catholic king and queen and the Catholic Church exercising this love of their neighbors Jesus told them about?

I'm afraid the answer is that they were.

Quote: Nareed

This brings up the question:

When Jews and Muslisms were burned at the stake, tortured or expelled from Spain, were the Catholic king and queen and the Catholic Church exercising this love of their neighbors Jesus told them about?

I'm afraid the answer is that they were.

What is the source of your insight?

Quote: Ayecarumba

What is the source of your insight?

The oft used phrase that god provides what you need rather than what you want. You know, that god provides appropriately.

I wouldn't find it hard to believe that the followers of the god that kills off all human life on the planet, including children, for their wickedness would decree the heathens need to be tortured into accepting god's son as their savior, lest they go to hell. I can't see them make as pious an argument for burning at the stake. But expulsion could be seen as a mercy given the alternatives.

Now, these days I doubt many modern Catholics and otehr Christians would see things that way. But did they at the time?

Quote: Ayecarumba

What is the source of your insight?

The Inquisition was predicated on the morality that it was okay to require Jews and Muslims to convert to Catholicism or in the alternative to kill them. Presumably this was biblically justified by interpreting the active command "love thy neighbor" and twisting it to mean "I will love you by giving you Christianity and if you reject my love then I'll kill you". However, had the Golden Rule been stated in Hillel's negative form, "do not do unto others that which is hateful to you", you'd never be able to justify an inquisition. Nobody disputes that being burned at the stake or kicked out of your home is hateful.

Quote: MathExtremist

The Inquisition was predicated on the morality that it was okay to require Jews and Muslims to convert to Catholicism or in the alternative to kill them.

That really wasn't the point, as I've said before. The real
reason for the Inquistion was the acquiring of property
by the Church. They would go into a town, accuse the
richest Jew of heresy, and confiscate all his property
for the Church. Oh, they would torture a few poor souls
too, just to make it look good. They did this for hundreds
of years, thats how the Church got so rich and powerful.
It was a racket, just like Rome was a racket. Follow the
money, it never lies. Sometimes a really rich Jew or Muslim
could bribe their torturers, this was frequently done also.

Of course that's true, just as the Crusades were really about sending miscreant unlanded second sons away. But the public justification was religious in both cases. That's the point. You can't justify the Crusades under Hillel's teaching either.

Quote: Nareed

The oft used phrase that god provides what you need rather than what you want. You know, that god provides appropriately.

I wouldn't find it hard to believe that the followers of the god that kills off all human life on the planet, including children, for their wickedness would decree the heathens need to be tortured into accepting god's son as their savior, lest they go to hell. I can't see them make as pious an argument for burning at the stake. But expulsion could be seen as a mercy given the alternatives.

Now, these days I doubt many modern Catholics and otehr Christians would see things that way. But did they at the time?

I don't know how most saw it back then. I suppose many participated in these acts under the guise of doing God's bidding, but in fact were only mercenaries looking to increase their personal holdings. There is no doubt that horrible things were done to other people, but war is like that. When we look down on others as "less than," the darkness that is our true sin nature quickly rises without restraint. It was true in the Crusades, it was true in Nazi Germany, it is true in the genocide happening in Africa today. Humanity has the capability for real evil.

God, on the other hand, has the advantage of seeing the spiritual heart of folks, and judges righteously. If people, (even, in our limited assessment, "innocent children") were killed by His "hand", you can still trust Him, and know that, "His ways are not our ways." This can be tough medicine to swallow when you see bad... sometimes really bad things happen to really good people. But I take heart, earthly bodies are perishable, they have and will pass away. We are all here for a relatively short time... then eternity.

Whoa, how did we get off on to the crusades and inquisition from a passage about loving God and loving our Neighbor? Actually, that is a good question; how in the world could people who really believed what Jesus is teaching in this passage do or allow those awful things to happen?

Could it be because they are following one of the greatest commandments and not the other? It is striking to me that Jesus does not give us an either/or scenario. He is asked, "What is the greatest commandment?" His response is to give two and He says at the end everything depends on these TWO commandments. You cannot love God and hate your neighbor and I also believe you cannot hate God and love your neighbor.

Besides reminding me of my Hebrew class where I was constantly yelled at for mistakenly pronouncing YWH (we had a very faithful teacher) M.Ex. reminded me of the second part of the Great Shema. The part about the outward signs the Jews were asked to wear to show their faithfulness to the Torah is conspicuously missing. Is Jesus replacing the phylacteries with another outward sign - the love of neighbor as yourself? This seems like a more sure sign that someone is following Christ's teachings than if they happen to be wearing religious garb, but are mistreating their brothers and sisters. Combining the good comments of both M.E. and AyeC. you get an active interpretation of Hillel's teaching and one that again uses how we would treat ourselves as a benchmark to how we should treat others. There is a cool song called, "You can tell we are Christians by our love", I think Jesus had this song in mind when he taught these commandments. Needless to say that song was not popular during the inquisition.

My thought that you can't love your neighbor and forget about God might be a little more controversial, because there are many very good people in this forum that don't believe in God but I am sure care deeply for others. My point is that if you don't see the other person as created in the image and likeness of God, indeed one of God's precious, unique, and unrepeatable children. The pessimist in me wonders if our love for neighbor can be sustained in the moments when it gets though? Again if in the long run it really is not going to matter how I treat this other random collection of molecules, then when it is really to my advantage or when I am hurt badly am I going to still be able to love them as myself? Just some questions to keep us on target.

Quote: FrGamble

My thought that you can't love your neighbor and forget about God might be a little more controversial,

You still haven't answered about how to love a concept
like god, something that you can't see or understand.
I remember years ago a woman asked that question
of a religious leader, that she didn't love god because
she didn't know how. He asked her what she loved most in
the world, and she said her little dog was what she
loved. He told her that loving the dog was loving god,
that anytime you truly love anything, you're loving god.
It was the most rational and logical answer to the question
I ever heard. Love is god. God is love.

Quote: FrGamble

Whoa, how did we get off on to the crusades and inquisition from a passage about loving God and loving our Neighbor? Actually, that is a good question; how in the world could people who really believed what Jesus is teaching in this passage do or allow those awful things to happen?

You know what's funny, my sister just passed this on to me. It's only tangentially appropriate, because I don't think you (FrGamble) are advocating a Christian nation. Nevertheless, food for thought.

Quote: FrGamble

Whoa, how did we get off on to the crusades and inquisition from a passage about loving God and loving our Neighbor?

Easy. Any Jew would be reminded of those and other examples of "Christian Love."

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Actually, that is a good question; how in the world could people who really believed what Jesus is teaching in this passage do or allow those awful things to happen?

Not allow. How could they do those awful things in the name of god?

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Besides reminding me of my Hebrew class where I was constantly yelled at for mistakenly pronouncing YWH (we had a very faithful teacher) M.Ex. reminded me of the second part of the Great Shema. The part about the outward signs the Jews were asked to wear to show their faithfulness to the Torah is conspicuously missing. Is Jesus replacing the phylacteries with another outward sign - the love of neighbor as yourself?

6.0, 6.0, 6.0, 6.0 and 5.9 from the East German judge. I swear I have not seen such fancy intellectual foot-work in a long, long time. Certainly not since there was an East Germany.

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My point is that if you don't see the other person as created in the image and likeness of God, indeed one of God's precious, unique, and unrepeatable children.

If you don't see others that way then what?

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Again if in the long run it really is not going to matter how I treat this other random collection of molecules, then when it is really to my advantage or when I am hurt badly am I going to still be able to love them as myself?

Don't blame others if you lack the imagination to appreciate other people without intervention by a deity.

Quote: Mosca

You know what's funny, my sister just passed this on to me. It's only tangentially appropriate, because I don't think you (FrGamble) are advocating a Christian nation. Nevertheless, food for thought.

I love Stephen Colbert! He's a very faithful Catholic you know.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I don't know how most saw it back then. I suppose many participated in these acts under the guise of doing God's bidding, but in fact were only mercenaries looking to increase their personal holdings.

No doubt many did. No doubt many more were glad to unleash their base urges with the blessings of the Church and, by implication, of god himself. And no doubt some, at the very least, honestly thought they were righteously fulfilling their duty to god by committing such atrocities, including the commandment to love their neighbors.

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There is no doubt that horrible things were done to other people, but war is like that.

Sure. I'll even admit that at the time of the crusades, plunder, rape murder and pillage were part of war. I won't even argue the Christian armies were retaliating for Muslim incursions into Europe.

But the Inquisition was not a war, nor was it confined to Spain (though it was worse in Spain than in other countries). Did you know the Spaniards even extended the practice to the Americas? Did you know to this day there are small groups of Jews right here in Mexico descended from Sephardi Jews who had to hide their faith in order to survive? And just to keep things interfaith, did you know the main Jewish communities here are reluctant to recognize them as real Jews?

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When we look down on others as "less than," the darkness that is our true sin nature quickly rises without restraint. It was true in the Crusades, it was true in Nazi Germany, it is true in the genocide happening in Africa today. Humanity has the capability for real evil.

Yes, indeed. There's never any good reason to regard any group as being intrinsically inferior to any other. But when it comes to belief it is much worse, because the reason for the judgment of inferiority is based on nothing but faith.

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God, on the other hand, has the advantage of seeing the spiritual heart of folks, and judges righteously. If people, (even, in our limited assessment, "innocent children") were killed by His "hand", you can still trust Him, and know that, "His ways are not our ways."

No, I can't. Children are not fully responsible for their actions when growing up, and certainly never responsible for the actions of their parents and elders. But then the Biblical god is not reluctant to visit punishment on generations yet unborn, is he?

Quote: EvenBob

You still haven't answered about how to love a concept
like god, something that you can't see or understand.

I think your story about the woman and the dog can be the beginning of a good answer. Bob, you have written beautifully before about God being everywhere. That is a pantehistic view of things but a good start. I think once we recognize God as present to us in the world of nature and then love and respect nature, we may soon be ready to ask the question again, how do I really love God? Because this hugging a tree stuff is just not doing it for me. That is where the uniqueness of the Gospel message that God become a someone, a person, whom we can identify with comes into play. God is no longer a thing but actually a human being, who knows what it is like to stub a toe or the happiness of a home cooked meal. Now God is someone we can love in a truly human way, one who we can share our life with. Without the incarnation I think your good question becomes harder to answer.

Quote: FrGamble

Without the incarnation I think your good question becomes harder to answer.

Whats lovable about Jesus? Plus, Jesus is the one who
said love god with all your heart. He didn't say love him with
all your heart, or love him after he dies.

Quote: EvenBob

Whats lovable about Jesus? Plus, Jesus is the one who
said love god with all your heart. He didn't say love him with
all your heart, or love him after he dies.

Nonetheless it is the only thing that makes sense of this.

You're all so not going to like this:

I can see how one could love a deity. But as to the Biblical god in particular (I doubt Jesus said to love Apollo or Aphrodite, after all), I would find it impossible. When judging a person, or being if you prefer, one ought to take into account his actions, feelings, thoughts and motivations. The Bible says little about what motivates god, what he thinks or what he feels. But it does describe god's actions in great detail.

We know, among other things, that he has destroyed all human life, including children, on one occasion. In another occasion he changed the langauges people could understand while they were attempting something not even remotely possible. Later he destroyed two cities for being full of bad people, but see my questions abotu religion thread in Free Speech. At the time he also killed a woman for diobedience. Later he plagued a whole nation for the intransigence of its ruler, including the murder of a generation of fisrt-born sons. He's promised retaliation unto generations yet unborn for the sins or actions of their ancestors.

Love that monster?

But people often can, and do, love horrible people. Its not uncommon to love an abusive spouse or aprent, for example. Becasue there is a relationship based on dependency, especially for children, and because the abuser often says he's sorry and doles out tokens of affection. God goes one further and promises either reward or torture for all eternity.

So I can see some people would be too frightened of god, and would obey his command to love him instead.

Quote: Nareed

You're all so not going to like this:

I can see how one could love a deity. But as to the Biblical god in particular, I would find it impossible. When judging a person, or being if you prefer, one ought to take into account his actions, feelings, thoughts and motivations. The Bible says little about what motivates god, what he thinks or what he feels. But it does describe god's actions in great detail.

We know, among other things, that he has destroyed all human life, including children, on one occasion. In another occasion he changed the langauges people could understand while they were attempting something not even remotely possible. Later he destroyed two cities for being full of bad people, but see my questions abotu religion thread in Free Speech. At the time he also killed a woman for diobedience. Later he plagued a whole nation for the intransigence of its ruler, including the murder of a generation of fisrt-born sons. He's promised retaliation unto generations yet unborn for the sins or actions of their ancestors.

Love that monster?

But people often can, and do, love horrible people. Its not uncommon to love an abusive spouse or aprent, for example. Becasue there is a relationship based on dependency, especially for children, and because the abuser often says he's sorry and doles out tokens of affection. God goes one further and promises either reward or torture for all eternity.

So I can see some people would be too frightened of god, and would obey his command to love him instead.

The Biblical God wants to be in relationship with you, you can't read a book about your friend and expect to know his feelings, thoughts, and motivations. This is the beauty and challenge of God as we discover Him in the Bible, there is so much more, he is alive and wants desperately to have a relationship with us. This is again the radical idea of the incarnation. God comes to us as a person, a brother, and a friend. Don't just stop at the book about God, if you want to know someone talk to them.

You might not want to do that because of your conception of God as He revealed Himself so many years ago in what we call the Old Testament or Hebrew Scriptures. To use a term like the Biblical God you have to read the entire Bible. There are many reasons God may have needed to slowly reveal himself to humanity, who could not have even concieved of turning the other cheek in a violent and choatic world. When you teach someone math do you start off with calculus or addition? After the incidents you mentioned there was a covenant established and a moral lesson given, and we continue to slowly progress as human beings. Yes, they are tough lessons and you and I are both glad that the Bible did not end there and we are not living at that time.

Love Jesus who is the example of monstrous love? Of course. He is the fullness of the revelation of who God is. In the fullness of time when we were ready to begin to hear and understand who God truly is He came in the flesh as Jesus Christ. A person who spent His life loving, caring, sacrificing for others. His life is the ultimate judgement against violence and the full expression of who God is - love.

This is not a God to fear but a God to love. One who reveals Himself slowly over history, patiently over thousands of years leading and teaching us until He is fully revealed in Jesus Christ, a man of love and compassion. This is who God truly is not an old image you seem to have stuck in your head.

Quote: FrGamble

You might not want to do that because of your conception of God as He revealed Himself so many years ago in what we call the Old Testament or Hebrew Scriptures. To use a term like the Biblical God you have to read the entire Bible.

Isn't he supposed to be the same god? That's why I use the term Biblical god, as opposed to the generic god which might apply to various deities.

Anyway:

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There are many reasons God may have needed to slowly reveal himself to humanity, who could not have even concieved of turning the other cheek in a violent and choatic world.

You don't think a restless province in the Roman Empire was violent and chaotic? The Romans were nowhere near as civilized as the Greeks. Better engineers, sure, and much better warriors. But they also partook of blood sports. adn what would you call crucifiction as a means of execution? Today we'd see the Romans as savages.

Also I don't buy the "slow revelation" idea. It seems a lot more likely, meaning it seems likely at all, that the men who wrote the Old Testament had a different agenda than those who wrote the New Testament. The rest is rationalization on the part of theologians. It must be an interesting exercise to reconcile the two versions of god. It might even make for a good story.

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Yes, they are tough lessons and you and I are both glad that the Bible did not end there and we are not living at that time.

Speak for yourself. I'm tempted to say we'd all be better off if the Bible had ended in-utero, as it were, but there's no way to tell what else might have taken its place. I shudder to think what woudl have happened if the Romans, say, or some others, had written and popularized a holy books.

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Love Jesus who is the example of monstrous love?

You can't possibly have meant that :)

But I'm not hung up on the Old Testament angry version of God. As far as I know Hell is a purely Christian invention. I also cannot reconcile criticism of usury vs imposing "eternity" as a term of punishment. So if the kinder, gentler god has moved torture and mayhem underground (literally!) to Hell, what good is that?

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Of course. He is the fullness of the revelation of who God is. In the fullness of time when we were ready to begin to hear and understand who God truly is He came in the flesh as Jesus Christ. A person who spent His life loving, caring, sacrificing for others.

There are two reasons that won't work, aside from the obvious one:

1) An omnipotent, immortal being who can, we assume, know the future, cannot give anything up as a sacrifice. If god inhabited a human body we know as Jesus (as far as I can make sense of the gentile theology), at best he was pantomiming a human being, pretending to be a man.

2) 10 years of a Jewish education left a firm impression of Jesus as man who thought he was the Messiah, and was thought to be so by many people as well, and founded, or was the basisof, a new religion different from Judaism (This wasn't a religious school, and nominally it wasn't a religious education. I can suplpy details on request).

Let alone that I don't subscribe to altruism and don't regard sacrifice as a virute.

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His life is the ultimate judgement against violence and the full expression of who God is - love.

Hell?

Quote: Nareed

Isn't he supposed to be the same god? That's why I use the term Biblical god, as opposed to the generic god which might apply to various deities.

Yes He is the same God who reveals Himself through the Old testament and the New testament. There is an old saying that "The Old testament is fullfilled in the New and that the New is hidden in the Old Testament." Or another that states, "You cannot understand the New Testament without the Old, nor can you understand the Old without the New Testament." However, remember that both testaments can only introduce you to the person of God then comes the exciting relationship.

Quote: Nareed

Also I don't buy the "slow revelation" idea. It seems a lot more likely, meaning it seems likely at all, that the men who wrote the Old Testament had a different agenda than those who wrote the New Testament. The rest is rationalization on the part of theologians. It must be an interesting exercise to reconcile the two versions of god. It might even make for a good story.

It does make for the greatest story ever told. Wether you buy it or not the concept of "slow revelation" is essential to learn anything and even essential to the development of life. Maybe this is more proof that God used the evolutionary process to develop species because it is a slow evolution taking place in steps over many, many years - like the evolution of the people of God.

Quote: Nareed

Speak for yourself. I'm tempted to say we'd all be better off if the Bible had ended in-utero, as it were, but there's no way to tell what else might have taken its place. I shudder to think what woudl have happened if the Romans, say, or some others, had written and popularized a holy books.

Isn't it amazing that the full brunt of the most powerful empire in the world, the Romans was brought to bear against this rag tag group of fisherman who believed in a resurrected carpenter and they couldn't end in-utero the message of th Gospel? In fact their brutal persecution made the early Church grow and eventual conquer mighty Rome. I know you don't like to hear this, but it seems kind of miraculous.

Quote: Nareed

You can't possibly have meant that :)

just a play off your awful statement about God. The only thing about God that is scary is to what depths He will go to show us He loves us. God has been called the Hound of Heaven for that reason.

Quote: Nareed

1) An omnipotent, immortal being who can, we assume, know the future, cannot give anything up as a sacrifice. If god inhabited a human body we know as Jesus (as far as I can make sense of the gentile theology), at best he was pantomiming a human being, pretending to be a man.

This is an old and tired heresy. Jesus is true God and true man. Could not God give up Himself over to us so completely that he sacrifices his omnipotence, immortality, and beautific vision to become completely vulnerable in our hands, to depend on us to protect Him, to die for us, and to know what it is like to doubt and struggle with faith only to overcome it by trust (see Agony in the Garden) all like we have to do. Does not this make His sacrifice a whole new magnitude of love?

Quote: Nareed

Let alone that I don't subscribe to altruism and don't regard sacrifice as a virute.

Hell?

Heaven?

Quote: FrGamble

It does make for the greatest story ever told.

Oh, I liked Star Trek First Conact a lot more. But it woudl be interesting to try to reconcile contradictory aspects of Judeo-Christian belief, in a fantasy kind of way.

Quote:

Wether you buy it or not the concept of "slow revelation" is essential to learn anything and even essential to the development of life. Maybe this is more proof that God used the evolutionary process to develop species because it is a slow evolution taking place in steps over many, many years - like the evolution of the people of God.

Nice try. But I've expressed my admiration for your fancy intellectual footwork before.

There is evidence of evolution. There is no evidence of god. Therefore there is no evidence that god used or caused evolution. But it's heartening to see Christians adapting themselves to Evolution and Natural Selection.

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This is an old and tired heresy.

I'm immune to heresy, or rather I have no fear of heresy. If it makes you feel any better, I've found myself upsetting members of other religions just as badly.

Quote:

Jesus is true God and true man.

Aristotle sayeth A is A. He further proveth A cannot be A and non-A.

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Could not God give up Himself over to us so completely that he sacrifices his omnipotence, immortality, and beautific vision to become completely vulnerable in our hands, to depend on us to protect Him, to die for us, and to know what it is like to doubt and struggle with faith only to overcome it by trust (see Agony in the Garden) all like we have to do. Does not this make His sacrifice a whole new magnitude of love?

Not unless you're willing to say god is still dead.

But I should thank you. I'm beginning to see why the Trinity is necessary. It's not the kind of thing we learned in Yiddishe Geshichte when examining the early Christian era.

Quote:

Heaven?

Hell?

Quote: FrGamble

One who reveals Himself slowly over history, patiently over thousands of years leading and teaching us [..]

Killing off all human life, including children, destroying cities, capriciously doling out punishment, among other things. If we're to assume god is real and the Bible is accurate, then we need to consider all of god's actions, not just the ones you approve of. And there's still the matter of Hell.

Quote:

[..]until He is fully revealed in Jesus Christ, a man of love and compassion.

Islam says you're wrong. Muslims regard Jesus as a prophet, just one of many to bring down Allah's message, and not the final one. That task fell on Muhammed. I assume you disagree with this interpretation (as do I for different reasons), but can you can prove you're right and Islam is wrong?

Judaism says you're wrong, too, for different reasons.

Quote:

This is who God truly is not an old image you seem to have stuck in your head.

So god commands you to love him, despite the atrocities he commited in the past. And if you don't you get sent to Hell, where you will suffer for all eternity.

Sure, that is a god to love, out of fear of the consequences.

There seems to be a hang up with hell. I recommend CS Lewis' "The Great Divorce" and also Cardinal John Henry Newman who I quote below from his "Parochial and Plain sermons". God does not send anyone to hell, nor does he force the Pharoh or any of us to follow His will. He allows our free will the freedom to reject Him so that we have the freedom to truly love Him.

There are awful consequences for our actions that go against God's will and those consequences are not just to us, innocent children, bystanders, and society can all be harmed by our sins. That is why God wants us to follow His way; not because He is the boss or because we fear Him, but because God knows that ultimately His will is what is best for us and society. He wants us to be happy and healthy in this life and the life to come. We are preparing and making free choices that are determining where we will be comfortable for eternity. Here is Cardinal Newman, he explains it better than I could:

"Nay, I will venture to say more than this;—it is fearful, but it is right to say it;—that if we wished to imagine a punishment for an unholy, reprobate soul, we perhaps could not fancy a greater than to summon it to heaven. Heaven would be hell to an irreligious man. We know how unhappy we are apt to feel at present, when alone in the midst of strangers, or of men of different tastes and habits from ourselves. How miserable, for example, would it be to have to live in a foreign land, among a people whose faces we never saw before, and whose language we could not learn. And this is but a faint illustration of the loneliness of a man of earthly dispositions and tastes, thrust into the society of saints and angels. How forlorn would he wander through the courts of heaven! He would find no one like himself; he would see in every direction the marks {8} of God's holiness, and these would make him shudder. He would feel himself always in His presence. He could no longer turn his thoughts another way, as he does now, when conscience reproaches him. He would know that the Eternal Eye was ever upon him; and that Eye of holiness, which is joy and life to holy creatures, would seem to him an Eye of wrath and punishment. God cannot change His nature. Holy He must ever be. But while He is holy, no unholy soul can be happy in heaven." - Sermon #1

Can we get back to the questions concerning the passage quoted in the OP about the two greatest commandments?

I feel like I am watching Mr Deity all over again....

Mr Deity

Quote: FrGamble

Can we get back to the questions concerning the passage quoted in the OP about the two greatest commandments?

Trying to lead a discussion on the internet is harder than herding cats. And if you do manage it, what have you achieved? A group of cats in one place, pissed of for being there and likely to start fighting amongst themselves.

Quote: FrGamble

Here is this coming weekend's Gospel passage, please help with your good comments and questions. Thanks!

When the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees,
they gathered together, and one of them,
a scholar of the law tested him by asking,
"Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?"
He said to him,
"You shall love the Lord, your God,
with all your heart,
with all your soul,
and with all your mind.
This is the greatest and the first commandment.
The second is like it:
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."

I will share my ideas on this, as requested, and hope that it is appreciated even though my thoughts may not be what you were looking for...
#1 I think it's funny that Christians believe that the Bible is actually the word of God.
#2 I think it's funny that people actually believe that Jesus could be quoted when supposedly the books of the gospel were written 30+ years after Jesus supposedly said and did all of these things.
#3 I think it's silly to believe that we are commanded to do anything in life. And to be commanded to love god sounds super silly.
#4 Even though I think it's ridiculous to believe in religion, I can still respect those who do. I attended Lutheran church growing up and was a born-again Christian from the age of 19-23. I can understand wanting to feel the "illusion" of security by believing in something that can make us think that we can understand why we're here existing. People don't feel comfortable sitting with the idea that although we are intelligent beings we really can't know anything. To think that there really is no god and that the Bible is just a book with words is a Christian's scariest thought.

I still keep in touch with a couple girls I used to go to church with. I find it funny that after all this time (I'm 34 now) they still believe in this crap. I wised up after 4 years. I often wonder if they really believe this stuff or not. I asked one of those girls recently why she still "believes". She said that the bible says she will go to heaven and she doesn't want to risk not believing for fear that if the bible is true that she will be sent to hell. I wonder how many people cling to their religion simply out of fear that they will be eternally punished by a "loving" God for having a mind of their own.

So back to the commandments to love, I like how Byron Katie, my spiritual mentor, says that love is what we are and there is nothing we ever need to do to love or be loved. It simply exists on its own without our interference.

#5 Love is great.

You know they always say religion and politics are the worst subjects to discuss cooly amongst people. I didn't want to start a thread myself on a religious topic but glad that this thread gave me an opportunity to express my beliefs.

P.S. My friend tells me Jesus still loves me.

Quote: FrGamble

There seems to be a hang up with hell.

The hang up is with Christians dismissing any unpleasant aspects of god too readily.

Quote:

God does not send anyone to hell,

Are you saying that:

a) there is no Hell
b) there is a Hell, but people enter it of their own free will, and it they don't they're free to go elsewhere
c) there is a Hell and people like, say, me wind up there; but god isn't responsible, even though he set the place up and made the rules and enforces them.
d) other

Quote:

nor does he force the Pharoh or any of us to follow His will.

No. it's quite clear he ruins Pharaoh's kingdom, tortures his people and kills his son. But he dones't force anyone? That's like saying I gave the thug witha gun my money rather than be shot, but he didn't take it by force.

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He allows our free will the freedom to reject Him so that we have the freedom to truly love Him.

If that is the sole purpose of free will, then god has a bad case of narcissism.

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There are awful consequences for our actions that go against God's will and those consequences are not just to us, innocent children, bystanders, and society can all be harmed by our sins.

Do you know any Yiddish? I guess most Americans will recognize the word "chutzpah." Enough said.

Quote:

That is why God wants us to follow His way; not because He is the boss or because we fear Him, but because God knows that ultimately His will is what is best for us and society.

There was a time when the Church reigned supreme over Europe. We call that time the Dark Ages. This is a gambling forum, so you do the math.

Quote:

He wants us to be happy and healthy in this life and the life to come. We are preparing and making free choices that are determining where we will be comfortable for eternity. Here is Cardinal Newman, he explains it better than I could:

Very good. So free will is a device to enable mortals to love god, and it gets taken away or rendered irrelevant in the afterlife?

No, thanks.

Quote:

Can we get back to the questions concerning the passage quoted in the OP about the two greatest commandments?

I thought that was what we were doing. You just can't expect me to discuss a myth as though ii were real, not when there are all sorts of negative consequences. To be honest, I used to enjoy discussing Star Trek as though it were real. It was harmless, though, because all of us in those arguments knew we were discussign fiction, and that pretending it was real made it a game. I also learned something about writing, but that's another story.

Quote: HotBlonde

#1 I think it's funny that Christians believe that the Bible is actually the word of God.

Actually that is the saddest aspect of faith I can think of.

Quote:

#2 I think it's funny that people actually believe that Jesus could be quoted when supposedly the books of the gospel were written 30+ years after Jesus supposedly said and did all of these things.

That's not too hard to believe. It could be the authros of these books took notes. And quotations must be taken as paraphrasing rather than a verbatim rendering. Of course this can lead to missunderstanding.

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She said that the bible says she will go to heaven and she doesn't want to risk not believing for fear that if the bible is true that she will be sent to hell.

My point exactly. Love god or else!

Quote:

I wonder how many people cling to their religion simply out of fear that they will be eternally punished by a "loving" God for having a mind of their own.

I won't say most of them do, but an appreciable fraction does. Also many who don't fear punishment may crave reward instead.

To some extent this is sensible. You persuade people to do things you want them to do by offering them something in return. Say I want you to buy my widget, I offer you a widget that meets your needs, wants or desires. But if I come to you with a gun in hand and say "buy my widget or I'll shoot," would you say you freely bought the widget even if you actually wanted it? Or would you say I coerced you into acquiring it?

Quote: HotBlonde

#2 I think it's funny that people actually believe that Jesus could be quoted when supposedly the books of the gospel were written 30+ years after Jesus supposedly said and did all of these things.

This is hard to deal with. They either relied on urban legends,
or a memory for conversations that happened decades ago.
Either method is faulty. A lawyer will tell you the worst witness
is an eyewitness. They've shown over and over that 5 people
can witness something, and have 5 different memories of it. I suspect
who ever wrote the Gospels relied on urban legends of
the events, more than memory.

Quote: HotBlonde

I still keep in touch with a couple girls I used to go to church with. I find it funny that after all this time (I'm 34 now) they still believe in this crap.

Its not belief or disbelief, its a way of life and they've
accepted it. I've found that Christians are the last people
who want to talk about their religion, they're usually
bored to death with it. Church is a social event, its
where their friends and family are.

Quote: Nareed

I won't say most of them do, but an appreciable fraction does. Also many who don't fear punishment may crave reward instead.

To some extent this is sensible. You persuade people to do things you want them to do by offering them something in return. Say I want you to buy my widget, I offer you a widget that meets your needs, wants or desires. But if I come to you with a gun in hand and say "buy my widget or I'll shoot," would you say you freely bought the widget even if you actually wanted it? Or would you say I coerced you into acquiring it?

You don't get it, God doesn't have a gun or anything other than a warning. You have the gun and if you keep playing with it someone is going to get hurt. God wants you to buy the widget so that your life and the lives or everyone around you can be better, but He will not force you or put a gun to your head. You have the power to do anything you want to do, including shoot yourself in the foot. He is trying to protect you from yourself.

I get in trouble everytime I try to quote someone but I take HotBlonde as pointing out that it is silly to think we as human beings know everything. I think left to our own selfish wishes and desires we end up causing ourselves and others harm. God has a plan, that he is NOT forcing you to take - if there is one thing that God is all about it is free will and our freedom, again without free will how could we truly love Him or anyone else? So God does not have a gun, nor does he punish you for making decisions, we do that ourselves. Our choices lead us down paths that hurt us, God knows which paths lead to saftey, health, and true happiness and peace, and He tries to get us to take those paths. If you take another path that leads somewhere else how is that the guide's fault?

Personally some days I wish he would take my free will away from me so that my choices would always be God's choices and it would save me from a lot of mistakes, hurt feelings, and embarassment. Sometimes I pray this prayer to help me, maybe it will help you too:

Take, O Lord, and receive my entire liberty,
my memory, my understanding and my whole will.
All that I am and all that I possess You have given me:
I surrender it all to You to be disposed of according to Your will.
Give me only Your love and Your grace;
with these I will be rich enough, and will desire nothing more.
Amen.

Quote: HotBlonde

To think that there really is no god and that the Bible is just a book with words is a Christian's scariest thought.


So back to the commandments to love, I like how Byron Katie, my spiritual mentor, says that love is what we are and there is nothing we ever need to do to love or be loved. It simply exists on its own without our interference.

#5 Love is great.

You know they always say religion and politics are the worst subjects to discuss cooly amongst people. I didn't want to start a thread myself on a religious topic but glad that this thread gave me an opportunity to express my beliefs.

P.S. My friend tells me Jesus still loves me.

I wonder if a non-believer is at all scared that there is a God and the Bible is NOT just a book with words?
I know Nareed doesn't think so, but there is a lot more evidence on the side of God than on the side of nothingness.

Either way fear should not be the basis of anyone's beliefs but it is often a starting point. Like when we were first learning right from wrong we were scared of our parents, but eventually we understood what they were doing and why they were doing it and had no more fear but love.

I wonder if atheism is grounded in a fear of not being told what to do. We like being in control of our lives and we fear that there may be something more powerful and more knowledgable than us. God forbid we might have to actually listen to this being and stop pretending that I've got it all figured out. Anyway, just a theory.

Thanks so much for your comments they are exactly what this thread is all about and they are personally helpful to me.

p.s. Jesus does indeed love you.

Quote: FrGamble

I wonder if a non-believer is at all scared that there is a God and the Bible is NOT just a book with words?

I find the thought terrifying that the Bible might be
true. It would mean the universe is just a giant
Parker Bros board game, and its so obviously not.
And being an atheist doesn't mean you believe
in nothingness. It just means you think there's
something else going on besides an old father
figure that lives in the sky and watches over
everything.

Quote: FrGamble

You don't get it, God doesn't have a gun or anything other than a warning.

Does Hell exist? If Hell exists, it begs the question about why God created it.

Quote: FrGamble

I wonder if a non-believer is at all scared that there is a God and the Bible is NOT just a book with words?

I can stop your wondering right now; no.

Quote: FrGamble

I wonder if atheism is grounded in a fear of not being told what to do. We like being in control of our lives and we fear that there may be something more powerful and more knowledgable than us. God forbid we might have to actually listen to this being and stop pretending that I've got it all figured out. Anyway, just a theory.

Again: no.

Quote: FrGamble

Thanks so much for your comments they are exactly what this thread is all about and they are personally helpful to me.

p.s. Jesus does indeed love you.

You're welcome. I enjoy the company of most people, including Christians, including Catholic priests. I got no beef with you, none at all.

My atheism comes from an honest attempt to understand Christianity and Catholicism. Remember, I used to teach CCD classes. I may not be able to read the stuff in Greek, but I absolutely have a good handle on the catechism. I'm surrounded by good Catholic people who pray for my soul, and I'm glad that that makes them feel good.

Quote: rxwine

Does Hell exist? If Hell exists, it begs the question about why God created it.

Because he loves us. Eternal punishment for those you love,
doesn't that make sense?

Quote: EvenBob

Because he loves us. Eternal punishment for those you love,
doesn't that make sense?

Forcing people to spend eternity with God whom they do not love or care about, does that make any more sense? Love means giving people the freedom to make their own choices. Hell is the abscence of God, heck for some people that might sound like Heaven. Read again this quote from Cardinal Newman:

"Nay, I will venture to say more than this;—it is fearful, but it is right to say it;—that if we wished to imagine a punishment for an unholy, reprobate soul, we perhaps could not fancy a greater than to summon it to heaven. Heaven would be hell to an irreligious man. We know how unhappy we are apt to feel at present, when alone in the midst of strangers, or of men of different tastes and habits from ourselves. How miserable, for example, would it be to have to live in a foreign land, among a people whose faces we never saw before, and whose language we could not learn. And this is but a faint illustration of the loneliness of a man of earthly dispositions and tastes, thrust into the society of saints and angels. How forlorn would he wander through the courts of heaven! He would find no one like himself; he would see in every direction the marks {8} of God's holiness, and these would make him shudder. He would feel himself always in His presence. He could no longer turn his thoughts another way, as he does now, when conscience reproaches him. He would know that the Eternal Eye was ever upon him; and that Eye of holiness, which is joy and life to holy creatures, would seem to him an Eye of wrath and punishment. God cannot change His nature. Holy He must ever be. But while He is holy, no unholy soul can be happy in heaven." (Sermon #1, Plain and Parochial sermons)

Quote: FrGamble

Forcing people to spend eternity with God whom they do not love or care about, does that make any more sense?

Thats the problem, none of it makes any sense.

Quote: FrGamble

You don't get it, God doesn't have a gun or anything other than a warning.

Ok. Let's say I tell you, "buy this widget or I'll throw you in a dungeon." Even if you did want the widget, would you say you were free to choose it or not?

Quote:

So God does not have a gun, nor does he punish you for making decisions, we do that ourselves. Our choices lead us down paths that hurt us, God knows which paths lead to saftey, health, and true happiness and peace, and He tries to get us to take those paths. If you take another path that leads somewhere else how is that the guide's fault?

Let's take it by parts:

1) we can make choices that do us harm. Certainly. If I choose to jump off an airplane without a parachute I will die. Further, I would have no one to blame but myself.

2) God isn't merely guiding. He set up, built or created his own dungeon, where he sends such people who, for whatever reason, don't measure up to his standards. We know this place as Hell. He didn't have to do that, it's something he chose to do out of his own free will.

So, we find god saying "love me or suffer eternity in my hell." And you don't see that as coercion? Three is no threat? Maybe god doesn't hold a literal gun when issuing his commandments, but he does hold a metaphorical one.

Finally 3) suppose god does want us to have health and happiness and peace. What does loving him have anything to do with it? For health you need to take care of yourself. Peace is largely a matter out of most people's control. And happiness is highly peculiar to each individual. What makes me happy probably won't make others happy.

Of all these the most important one is happiness. Health is partly taking care of what you eat, keep yourself clean, do exercises and so on, but 1) there are trade-offs you can make (say you appreciate smoking for its emotional effect more than you resent it taking years off your life, to give an extreme example) and 2) some matters of health are a result of luck; a baby with Tay Sachs will die very young no matter what he does, for example.

Since happiness is peculiar to each individual, we each must seek our own way. We can ask for and get help and guidance, of course, but no one can tell me, or you "this is what will make you happy." It's a judgment every person must make.

But what does loving god have anytying to do with it?

I don't deny some people migth find happiness practicing a religion and even loving god (with or without an organized religion). But I strenously deny it is the universal recipe for happiness that everyone must follow. Much less as a onse-size-fits-all solution that you had better embrace, or else!

Quote:

Personally some days I wish he would take my free will away from me so that my choices would always be God's choices and it would save me from a lot of mistakes, hurt feelings, and embarassment.

No offense, really, but I regard such wishes as highly immoral. Thinking and making rational decisions are what define us as human. relinquishing such responsibilities is relinquishing your humanity.

You can use someone else's judgment when you have reason to, of course. But in order to have reason you first need to think and make rational decisions. Such as consulting a doctor, because you can neither evaluate nor judge the state of your health as well as the doctor can. But you can evaluate and judge the competence of a doctor.

Quote:

Sometimes I pray this prayer to help me, maybe it will help you too:

I was going to again say "No offense, but..." except any comment I made would be very offensive.

So in lieu of launching a personal attack, which I told you I wouldn't do, I'll say something else: You've succeeded in making me really angry. I guess by now that ought to make us even.

Quote: Nareed

... quotations must be taken as paraphrasing rather than a verbatim rendering.

See the thing is with Christians, most of them are so legalistic that they say that the actual quotes are word for word what was said. You can see how most religious thinking defies logic.

Quote: EvenBob

They either relied on urban legends,
or a memory for conversations that happened decades ago.

I went out drinking with friends last night and they had to tell me today of things I did and said last night that I don't even remember. We're talking about 16 hours ago. And Christians believe that someone is supposed to magically remember word for word what someone said 30 years ago? But then again Christians tend to excuse things by saying that these prophets were god-enlightened and that god is speaking through them and blah blah...

Quote: EvenBob

They've shown over and over that 5 people
can witness something, and have 5 different memories of it.

And I don't remember which 2 gospels it was but there is the same story told in both books of Jesus on a particular day and Jesus is quoted differently. When I asked one of the pastor's wife why Jesus was quoted in 2 different ways when he only said one thing she came up with some excuse. It's funny to see Christians constantly making excuses for their religion. Again, it defies all logic. "All the stories in the bible are exactly what happened" I've been told. Really? So there was a talking snake? And Noah really gathered 2 of every creature on this planet, built a huge boat to carry them all on and survived 40 days or however long all on this same boat? Seriously now.

Quote: EvenBob

Church is a social event, its
where their friends and family are.

That's the one thing I miss the most about going to church. I belonged to the college groups and had a lot of fun. It was like an extended family to me. Once I get a car again I will probably go back to Agape in Culver City, CA. They have services every week and it's for people of all religions (or lack thereof) and it's about love and connection and togetherness. Plus they have singles events that they do a lot which seems like it could be fun.

Quote: FrGamble

So God does not have a gun, nor does he punish you for making decisions, we do that ourselves.

As a couple people just pointed out, if God created everything in existence then he created hell and made it possible that people could go there, no?

Quote: FrGamble

I wonder if a non-believer is at all scared that there is a God and the Bible is NOT just a book with words?

I'm sure a lot of people do think about this. It has crossed my mind a few times, not really any more though. But if it's all true then I have nothing to worry about because I "gave my life over to Christ" and was "saved" and according to Christians that is irreversible so I can't now be un-saved and go to hell.

Quote: FrGamble

I wonder if atheism is grounded in a fear of not being told what to do.

You're kind of lumping all atheists into one. Atheists simple believe that there is no god, for whatever reasons.

Quote: EvenBob

Thats the problem, none of it makes any sense.

:)

Quote: Nareed

2) God isn't merely guiding. He set up, built or created his own dungeon, where he sends such people who, for whatever reason, don't measure up to his standards. We know this place as Hell. He didn't have to do that, it's something he chose to do out of his own free will.

So, we find god saying "love me or suffer eternity in my hell." And you don't see that as coercion? Three is no threat? Maybe god doesn't hold a literal gun when issuing his commandments, but he does hold a metaphorical one.

Amen, sister!

It's funny how many if not all religions tend to make sex bad in a lot of ways. The funny thing is when I'm asked how I went from being a bible-reading, church-going, fellowshiping, prosthelitizing and bible study-going believing Christian to a non-believing person Christians have a hard time accepting my answer. Although it did not happen in an instant, I remember watching MTV and seeing a performance that Britney Spears did in a nude-colored sexy outfit and she looked so sexy and was shaking her body and I remember thinking, "This is supposed to be wrong? She's owning her sexuality. You go girl!" And my sexuality and opinions about sex has changed. I not uptight about sex. My roommate could accidentally see me naked and I don't freak out and get embarassed like I have in the past. Even though I am now a heavy-set girl and not 100% comfortable with my body, I love that there are men who love and enjoy my body, and I have fun in bed too and am able to accept pleasure. What a wonderful gift that we can enjoy our bodies!

How in the world is sex considered bad or dirty? Am I a slut for enjoying having a man pleasure me? Is it even possible for a woman to be a slut? Why is prostitution illegal? Why can a woman be arrested and punished for providing and taking part in one of the most enjoyable experiences we can have as a human being? Seriously! Why is it against the law? How is this a crime? Isn't there supposed to be a victim in a crime? Who's the victim? Why is it ok to get paid to have sex on camera for the production of a pornographic movie and have the entire world watch or strip topless and nude on stage in front of a bunch of people, but if you make love in private for money that's considered wrong? I guess I've gone off into more of a legal thing, but in a related sense hasn't it become illegal because people have deemed it wrong in the first place? Why is it wrong? Cuz "God" says so? People tend to grow up and believe what they're told and often times don't take the time to question their beliefs. But then again it's a "sin" to doubt God's word, right, so people are scared into not thinking for themselves.

BTW, has anyone else noticed the Wizard's abscence on this thread? It makes sense that some people wouldn't want to touch the subject. I, on the other hand, am often outspoken and if someone wants to hate me based on my beliefs then that is their prerogative.

Quote: FrGamble

I wonder if a non-believer is at all scared that there is a God and the Bible is NOT just a book with words?

As you already said: no.

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I know Nareed doesn't think so, but there is a lot more evidence on the side of God than on the side of nothingness.

If the choice is between god and nothing, the premises are flawed. Aristotle again: A is A. Obviously something exists, else who is asking the question? So, I exist, you exist, the WoV site exists, Vegas exists, the whole world exists, the whole universe exists. It's self-evident and beyond any rational question. And there's also plenty of evidence, like everyhting that exists is evidence that something exists.

There is no evidence of god. You can assert god created everything, therefore the eixtsnce of the universe is evidence of god. In fact, you have so asserted. But an assertion si not evidence. The Maya asserted one or more of their gods created people by baking corn meal in human shapes and imbuing them with life. Their assertion plus the existence of people are not evidence of the existence of Mayan gods. And there are other creation myths, too.

People can say, too, that they've experienced god, or his presence, or his guidance, or that he has answered their prayers, but again we're dealing with assertions free of any real evidence.

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Either way fear should not be the basis of anyone's beliefs but it is often a starting point. Like when we were first learning right from wrong we were scared of our parents, but eventually we understood what they were doing and why they were doing it and had no more fear but love.

You seem to have been fortunate in your choice of parents.

Anyway, parents rely on fear to instill discipline. This works if, and only if, such fear is accompanied by a reasonable explanation of why punishment is being given. But it has nothing to do with belief.

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I wonder if atheism is grounded in a fear of not being told what to do.

Not even a little.

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We like being in control of our lives and we fear that there may be something more powerful and more knowledgable than us. God forbid we might have to actually listen to this being and stop pretending that I've got it all figured out. Anyway, just a theory.

Oh, no. Not even close. I know there are people with more knowledge and more intelligence than I. I've met a few of them. I listen to them, if they have something of interest to tell me. And if warranted, that is, if I judge them to be right, I've been known to change my mind.