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rxwine
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January 27th, 2013 at 9:30:22 PM permalink
Quote: vert1276

so you are assuming that if the US government was fighting against its own citizens it wouldn't be concerned with collateral damage, and it would just start dropping nukes everywhere?



Well if we go to war with the government it will probably be those damn troublesome southern states again. Maybe we can get rid of them next civil war.

We turn them into future parking spaces with nukes.

There is possibly more fearsome things than guns that the government is probably cooking up though in our weapons programs. I don't know if I should even worry about small arms.
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boymimbo
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January 28th, 2013 at 2:14:21 AM permalink
My point, I think, is that a well armed militia really has no chance against the American government, especially on its home soil. With the advent of drones and other technologies, warfare has changed dramatically, in that the American government can pretty much kill anything, anywhere, without impunity. I imagine that this technology will trickle down to police forces as well and you'll see NY/Chicago/LA drones and robotics take out its most difficult targets. With that technology and the Patriot Act, there is nowhere to hide.

While the Afghanistan story is not over, the US is well on its way to withdrawing its troops, and deaths from IUDs and other combat fatalities are down dramatically from their highs in 2010. 47 US soldiers died in the last quarter of 2012 compared to 64 in the same quarter in 2011 and 116 in 2010. At least Obama isn't flying in on a military plane with a big banner stating "mission accomplished" five years before the actual end of combat operations... ...

If the American people are going to have a "revolution", it would have to be done peacefully, or at least with a substantial part of the military on the rebel side.

Once you give up the idea that being "well armed" will get you nowhere, then it makes far more sense to just have weapons for personal defense. For 99% of "home invasions", one or two guns will probably do the trick, and you don't need a magazine with 50 bullets to do it. Obama's proposals come nowhere close to that and probably never will.

I've read the studies on Chicago, Washington, and New York, and the direct evidence supports the fact that taking guns out of law abiding citizens increases gun violence (by the criminals). That's because a gun ban has to be coupled with increased policing. Washington's homocide rate was near its lowest in 2012 for example, while Chicago's was very high. There's no reason to believe that a gun control law or lack thereof caused New York's homocide rate to drop in the 2000s. Therefore, there's more factors to the premise that a gun ban = more gun deaths.

If I lived in the States, I woudn't own a gun. First off, my property frankly doesn't mean that much to me. If I want to protect my property, I get an alarm system and pay for home insurance. Second off, I'm not willing to take another's life if someone wants to come into my home and steal my crap so that he can buy drugs. Thirdly, it is far more likely that a burglar would come into my home when I'm not home and steal my gun anyway rather than come in while I am home. Fourthly, I don't hunt. Fifth, I realize that I have no chance against the US Government and I am not paranoid that a democrat (or republican) president is going to become a dictatorship. Sixth, I count on the goodness of society and others to protect me in case of a natural catastrophy.

If I was paranoid and was worried about armageddon or catastrophy where I would need to protect myself against other citizens, then absolutely, guns would be in my home, but they would be locked away (in a safe or gun cabinet) and unloaded so that burglars (or mentally challenged teenagers) couldn't easily access them. I would have an alarm system. I would keep a small arm near my bed (safety on, ammo clip detached) to defend myself against a home invasion.

Given the climate of today's world, having that fear is not completely unreasonable.
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P90
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January 28th, 2013 at 3:30:55 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

My point, I think, is that a well armed militia really has no chance against the American government, especially on its home soil. With the advent of drones and other technologies...


A well-armed militia will not revolt against the government without the sentiment being widespread.
We're talking sub-5% approval rating - and it will carry on through the military.

Even if most will follow orders (under the threat of death), you can expect them to do so unwillingly and sabotage the action where possible, and some to outright undermine it. So you're looking at broken networks, grease-sand mix on detonator contacts, gasoline in diesel vehicles, salt in coolant circuits, armed drones doing CFIT into the runway.

A government fighting its own people will have to contend with more than their guns. Especially if this happens in a population like the Americans, with a strong sense of national unity and honor, not a third-world dictatorship where the military caste has been buttered-up by the government.


Quote: boymimbo

Second off, I'm not willing to take another's life if someone wants to come into my home and steal my crap so that he can buy drugs.


I am. I don't approve of death penalty being used in a vindictive manner, but I do believe that lethal force is acceptable force for stopping violent crimes in progress.
My concern will not only be with the property he takes, but with the property he destroys in the process and with the risk to myself, my home and my family.
We clearly differ in opinion. That's why the US citizens only have a choice to buy a gun; they are not required to do so, or even issued one for "free".
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AZDuffman
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January 28th, 2013 at 4:39:43 AM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

And that is where you and the rest of us liberals fail. Data and science and crap like that bounces right off their foreheads. You just have to let them win. When it's their children that get slaughtered then they will suddenly have an epiphany and think that a gun in everyone's hands isn't such a good idea after all. Until then, we do like all the forum members here do, throw the dice and hope it's not our loved one that's dying from a sucking chest wound.



This would be believable if "you liberals" actually listened to "data and science crap" like you say. Global warming numbers are fudged to support the weak case for it but liberals say, "but look at all the fires and Hurricane Sandy" as if we never had fires before and a hurricane during hurricane season is something special. Or when it is poitned out that the cities with the most restrictive gun laws tend to have higher rates of gun violence.
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Beethoven9th
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January 28th, 2013 at 6:04:17 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

My point, I think, is that a well armed militia really has no chance against the American government, especially on its home soil.


There are about 1.5 million people in the military. About 1.5 million more are in the reserves. That's a total of 3 million people.

Now the US population is over 300 million. If only 2% of the population staged a revolt, that's over 6 million people (which dwarfs the military). So what do you think the US government would do to these people? Kill all 6 million? That's a Hitlerian figure...

Quote: boymimbo

Once you give up the idea that being "well armed" will get you nowhere...


This is a silly argument, yet I keep hearing it over and over from gun control advocates. Let me put it this way. If Mike Tyson walked up & started beating the crap out of me, am I just going to sit there & give no resistance because fighting back "will get me nowhere" since he's twice my size? Of course not! Even though there's a 99.9% chance that he would win the fight, I'm going to go down swinging.

And it's the same with guns. For example, if I had been a Jew in Nazi Germany, I don't care if a gun would/wouldn't save me. I would still want the most powerful gun I could get my hands on because if I'm going down I'm gonna take others with me.

Quote: boymimbo

For 99% of "home invasions", one or two guns will probably do the trick, and you don't need a magazine with 50 bullets to do it.


Assuming your numbers are correct (which I doubt they are), I'd hate to be in that unlucky 1%.

Quote: boymimbo

If I lived in the States, I woudn't own a gun.


And that's your choice. Others want the choice of owning a gun.

Quote: boymimbo

I count on the goodness of society and others to protect me in case of a natural catastrophy.


Protect you with what? Their good thoughts?? I don't want to sound rude, but you would be the first one robbed or--even worse--dead.
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Beethoven9th
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January 28th, 2013 at 6:04:20 AM permalink
[duplicate post deleted]
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s2dbaker
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January 28th, 2013 at 7:53:55 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

This would be believable if "you liberals" actually listened to "data and science crap" like you say. Global warming numbers are fudged to support the weak case for it but liberals say, "but look at all the fires and Hurricane Sandy" as if we never had fires before and a hurricane during hurricane season is something special.

It must be quite an interesting world you live in where liberals say that specific weather events are proof of climate change.
Quote: AZDuffman

Or when it is poitned out that the cities with the most restrictive gun laws tend to have higher rates of gun violence.

Cities like New Orleans for example?
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
boymimbo
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January 28th, 2013 at 8:33:09 AM permalink
If 2% of the country started a revolt, they would probably have to also get through the other 98% of the country. And yeah, the 6 million is a Hitlerian figure, but alot of people on this blog compare his Obama's actions as if he was Hitler, so why wouldn't you expect that? And he could accomplish that with a single nuke.

If Mike Tyson walked up to you, you could probably point a gun at him and he would retreat. With respect to the Jews, the armaments you had 60+ years ago would have been comparable but the German SS would have been no match for the Jews, just like the German Army overpowered say, Poland and France.

Fact is, you are three times more likely to be a victim of homocide and five times more likely to commit suicide in a house with a gun than without.

So yeah, keep a gun in your home. Protect yourself. I don't want to sound rude, but you are far more likely to be the dead one.
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boymimbo
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January 28th, 2013 at 8:36:12 AM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

It must be quite an interesting world you live in where liberals say that specific weather events are proof of climate change.



Yes, it's unseasonably cold last week. Must be an ice age coming along. Oh wait, it's supposed to be 50+ degrees tomorrow, in Buffalo, in January. Go ahead and buy that beachfront property. The sea level's not going to rise, no sir eee. Screw the scientists. They're all making it up... scientists are the last group of people to be trusted... don't you know that the world is flat?
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AZDuffman
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January 28th, 2013 at 8:59:06 AM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

It must be quite an interesting world you live in where liberals say that specific weather events are proof of climate change.Cities like New Orleans for example?



Let's see. Just last year Obama said he gets worried when spring comes too soon. Year before that he questioned Rick Perry about being a denier "with all the wildfires in TX this year." Liberals have been blaming Katrina and Sandy on global warming in many outlets

And this is only a very few.
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boymimbo
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January 28th, 2013 at 9:07:16 AM permalink
AZ, absolutely.

Any scientist or politician who points at a single event and says "global warming" is just as disingenous as Newt or any talk show host who says that a cold day (or week) indicates that it's a hoax. Though I'm a global-warming believer (I've done my own studies and come to my own conclusions), I just shake my head at people who cite single events or even a season of events to make it so.
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AZDuffman
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January 28th, 2013 at 9:14:43 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

AZ, absolutely.

Any scientist or politician who points at a single event and says "global warming" is just as disingenous as Newt or any talk show host who says that a cold day (or week) indicates that it's a hoax. Though I'm a global-warming believer (I've done my own studies and come to my own conclusions), I just shake my head at people who cite single events or even a season of events to make it so.



Well we have. Found some commons ground. I am a denier based on my research but do not point to one event with the exception of doing it to show how absurd the practice is.
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s2dbaker
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January 28th, 2013 at 9:20:51 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Let's see. Just last year Obama said he gets worried when spring comes too soon. Year before that he questioned Rick Perry about being a denier "with all the wildfires in TX this year." Liberals have been blaming Katrina and Sandy on global warming in many outlets

And this is only a very few.

Like I said, fascinating world you got going on inside your head. Are there any other things you'd like to attribute to liberals while you're at it? You said that was only a few of the things that you have rattling around in there. Tell us more but I would encourage you to start a new thread since this one is about the gunshow loophole.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
boymimbo
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January 28th, 2013 at 9:58:49 AM permalink
s2baker... don't rattle the cage now...
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AZDuffman
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January 28th, 2013 at 10:23:25 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

s2baker... don't rattle the cage now...



S2 probably just thinks I can't be reasonable because Rush Limbaugh and FNC will punish me or something.
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AZDuffman
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January 28th, 2013 at 10:26:08 AM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

Like I said, fascinating world you got going on inside your head. Are there any other things you'd like to attribute to liberals while you're at it? You said that was only a few of the things that you have rattling around in there. Tell us more but I would encourage you to start a new thread since this one is about the gunshow loophole.



Not in my head, in the real world for all to see. I just gave the examples you asked for. Please reply with something other than a personal attack
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vert1276
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January 28th, 2013 at 1:20:35 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

If 2% of the country started a revolt, they would probably have to also get through the other 98% of the country. And yeah, the 6 million is a Hitlerian figure, but alot of people on this blog compare his Obama's actions as if he was Hitler, so why wouldn't you expect that? And he could accomplish that with a single nuke.

If Mike Tyson walked up to you, you could probably point a gun at him and he would retreat. With respect to the Jews, the armaments you had 60+ years ago would have been comparable but the German SS would have been no match for the Jews, just like the German Army overpowered say, Poland and France.

Fact is, you are three times more likely to be a victim of homocide and five times more likely to commit suicide in a house with a gun than without.

So yeah, keep a gun in your home. Protect yourself. I don't want to sound rude, but you are far more likely to be the dead one.



there you go with correlation and causation again.....correlation =/= causation...so what you are saying if you buy a a gun and bury it in my back yard somehow magically that makes me more likely to be a victim of homicide? You have to look at WHY they own the gun...maybe its because they live in a high crime area and want it for protecton....and THAT is why they are more likely to be a victim of homicide....also that stat doesn't distinguish between legal and illegal gun ownership....so if a convicted felon drug dealer has a gun in his house...is he more likely to be a victim of homicide because he owns a gun? or because of the life he lives as a criminal?
Beethoven9th
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January 28th, 2013 at 2:15:38 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

If 2% of the country started a revolt, they would probably have to also get through the other 98% of the country.


Name one example in history where an entire country (or even 98% of the population) has fought anything together.
(Answer: You can't.)

Quote: boymimbo

And yeah, the 6 million is a Hitlerian figure...And he [Obama] could accomplish that with a single nuke.


Seriously? Obama nuking SIX MILLION of his own people? Sorry, but you're the only one making Obama sound like Hitler here.

Quote: boymimbo

If Mike Tyson walked up to you, you could probably point a gun at him and he would retreat.


boymimbo has proven my point, yet he doesn't even realize it.

Quote: boymimbo

Fact is, you are three times more likely to be a victim of homocide and five times more likely to commit suicide in a house with a gun than without.

So yeah, keep a gun in your home. Protect yourself. I don't want to sound rude, but you are far more likely to be the dead one.


Glad I changed your mind.
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January 28th, 2013 at 2:52:19 PM permalink
Quote: vert1276

there you go with correlation and causation again.....?



Another thing that bugs me about the “three times” stat is no one ever quotes the other side of the coin – When someone comes for you and means you harm, how much more likely are you to be harmed when you don’t have a gun?

It’s a dishonest stat. It looks substantial, but paints only a sliver of a picture. Think of this – more than half of these mass shootings have been in gun free zones. All told, no one was armed and present to stop it. In situations where civilians were armed and present, the gunmen were stopped before the incident reached “mass murder” numbers. Therefore, it stands to reason that everyone should be forced to carry firearms and firearms should be allowed everywhere.

I see no difference between the two ideas. They’re both 100% fact, yes, but they’re both the very definition of intellectual dishonesty.

I commented on this in my Firearms thread in DT, and I’ll say it again here. We’re all smarter than this. No matter which side you align with, you’ve got to see that issues that are being trumpeted the most are the ones that matter the least. Mag limits, firearm accessories, banning… can’t you see that on the subject that matters – our people being killed by criminals and the insane – that these “issues” are complete non-issues? Both sides of this issue should be pissed off about this constant barrage of misleading media and start looking deeper.
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boymimbo
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January 28th, 2013 at 2:58:48 PM permalink
I didn't jump to correlation =/= causation. You did. I stated a well known and indisuptable fact. But if you want studies, here you go:

Harvard Injury Control Research Center: Guns and Death: Homicide

1. Guns and homicide (literature review).
We performed a review of the academic literature on the effects of gun availability on homicide rates.
Major findings: A broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.
Publication: Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. "Firearm Availability and Homicide: A Review of the Literature." Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40.

2. Guns availability and homicide rates across nations.
We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s.
Major findings: Across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded.
Publication: Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. "Firearm Availability and Homicide Rates across 26 High Income Countries." Journal of Trauma. 2000; 49:985-88.

3. Gun availability and state homicide rates, 1988-1997
Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period.
Major findings: After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.
Publication: Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. "Household Firearm Ownership Levels and Homicide Rates across U.S. Regions and States, 1988-1997." American Journal of Public Health. 2002: 92:1988-1993.

4. Gun availability and state homicide rates, 2001-2003
Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003.
Major findings: States with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.
Publication: Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. "State-level Homicide Victimization Rates in the U.S. in Relation to Survey Measures of Household Firearm Ownership, 2001-2003." Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.


SUICIDE

7-8. Guns and suicide (literature review).
We performed reviews of the academic literature on the effects of gun availability on suicide rates.
Major findings: The preponderance of current evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for youth suicide in the United States. The evidence that gun availability increases the suicide rates of adults is credible, but is currently less compelling. Most of the disaggregate findings of particular studies (e.g. handguns are more of a risk factor than long guns, guns stored unlocked pose a greater risk than guns stored locked) are suggestive but not yet well established.
Publication: Miller, Matt; Hemenway, David. "The Relationship between Firearms and Suicide: A Review of the Literature." Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 1999; 4:59-75.
Publication: Miller, Matt; Hemenway, David. "Gun Prevalence and the Risk of Suicide: A Review." Harvard Health Policy Review. 2001; 2:29-37.


9. Gun availability and state suicide rates, 1988-1997 (cross sectional analysis)
Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership rates, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and suicide across 50 states over a ten year period.
Major findings: After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, across the United States, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of suicide, particularly firearm suicide.
Publication: Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. "Household Firearm Ownership Levels and Suicide across U.S. Regions and States, 1988-1997." Epidemiology. 2002; 13:517-524.


10. Gun availability and state suicide rates, 1999-2001 (cross sectional analysis)
Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and suicide across states, 1999-2001.
Major findings: States with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm suicide and overall suicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups. It remained true after accounting for poverty, urbanization and unemployment. There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm suicide. Publication: Miller, Matthew; Lippmann, Steven; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. "Household Firearm Ownership and Rates of Suicide across U.S. States." Journal of Trauma. 2007; 62:1029-35.

11. Gun availability and state suicide rates, 1981-2001 (time series analysis)
Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and suicide over time, 1981-2001.
Major findings: Changes in the levels of household firearm gun ownership was significantly associated with changes in both firearm suicide and overall suicide, for men, women and children, even after controlling for region, unemployment, alcohol consumption and poverty. There was no relationship between changes in gun ownership and changes in non-firearm suicide.
Publication: Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David; Lippman, Steven. "The Association between Changes in Household Firearm Ownership and Rates of Suicide in the United States, 1981-2002." Injury Prevention. 2006; 12:178-82.

14-15. Gun availability and regional suicide rates (cross sectional analysis)
We analyzed the relationship of gun availability and suicide among differing age groups across the 9 US regions.
Major findings: Levels of gun ownership are highly correlated with suicide rates across all age groups, even after controlling for lifetime major depression and serious suicidal thoughts. After controlling for divorce, education, unemployment, poverty and urbanization, the statistically significant relationship holds for 15 to 24 year olds and 45 to 84 year olds, but not for 25 to 44 year olds.
Publication: Birckmayer, Johanna; Hemenway, David. "Suicide and Gun Prevalence: Are Youth Disproportionately Affected?" Suicide and Life Threatening Behavior. 2001; 31:303-310.
Publication: Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. "The Association of Rates of Household Handgun Ownership, Lifetime Major Depression and Serious Suicidal Thoughts with Rates of Suicide across US Census Regions." Injury Prevention. 2002; 8:313-16.

ACCIDENTS

18. Gun availability and state unintentional firearm death rates
We analyzed data for 50 states over 19 years to investigate the relationship between gun prevalence and accidental gun deaths across different age groups.
Major findings: For every age group, where there are more guns there are more accidental deaths. The mortality rate was 7 times higher in the four states with the most guns compared to the four states with the fewest guns.
Publication: Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. "Firearm Availability and Unintentional Firearm Deaths." Accident Analysis and Prevention. 2001; 33:477-84.

19. Firearm storage and unintentional firearm death across U.S. states
We analyzed data from the 2002 Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System that asked questions about guns and gun storage in the home, combined with information on deaths from the National Center for Health Statistics.
Major findings: Both firearm prevalence AND questionable storage practices (i.e. storing firearms loaded and unlocked) were associated with higher rates of unintentional firearm deaths. Publication: Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David; Vriniotis, Mary. "Firearm Storage Practices and Rates of Unintentional Firearm Deaths in the United States." Accident Analysis and Prevention. 2005; 37:661-67.
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AZDuffman
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January 28th, 2013 at 3:28:54 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

My point, I think, is that a well armed militia really has no chance against the American government, especially on its home soil. With the advent of drones and other technologies, warfare has changed dramatically, in that the American government can pretty much kill anything, anywhere, without impunity. I imagine that this technology will trickle down to police forces as well and you'll see NY/Chicago/LA drones and robotics take out its most difficult targets. With that technology and the Patriot Act, there is nowhere to hide.



I wouldn't say this at all. If we had a regionally based conflict similar to the Civil Way, all the rebel side would need to do would be send back 5,000 or so filled body-bags and the populance would state that it would be time to sue for peace. I can easily see someone in Massachusetts saying, "This isn't worth all those deaths. I hate those rednecks anyways. If South Carolina wants to leave just make sure they take Kentucky with them!"

If it was without clear boundry lines things would be even more difficult. The record of the US Military against gurella forces is terrible. All that would have to happen is for the resistance to hold out 5-10 years. By then it would be with clearer lines (the body-bag thing again) as they would soon only patrol "safer" areas.

Technology cannot win a war without the will to do so. Consider that even most nuclear countries have been attacked or defeated by non-nuclear ones. The list includes:

1. USA (Vietnam+others)
2. USSR (Afghanistan)
3. Great Britian (Falkland Islands)
4. Israel (Iraq + others)
5. France (Vietnam + minor others)
6. India (Pakistan)
7. Pakistan (India)

China-not sure, someone jog my memory
N Korea* they may have detonated a device but have not made an effective weapon
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boymimbo
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January 28th, 2013 at 3:30:07 PM permalink
A recent study of criminals said that 39% considered not carrying out the crime because they perceived that their victim might have a gun. Studies show that at least 100,000 crimes / year are defended by a gun.

So, despite the fact that I quoted all of those studies that indeed show that gun ownership = more gun homocides = more gun suicides = more gun accidents, indeed, I will make the following concession: more guns = less crime (though the linkage between causation is not as clear). At least that what John Lott wants you to believe. Many studies since then have debunked that as well, showing for example, that right-to-carry laws have no effect on murder and rapes but cause an increase in aggravated assault. I'll say the jury is out on that one.

That said, do you want your school principal to have a gun? My friend is a teacher union leader, and he said, "the last people you want to have guns are teachers and principals. They're nuts." Speaking of anecdotal...

My general thought on the whole gun ownership boils down to this: if you want a gun, get one (or even three), learn to use it responsibly, keep it locked up when you're not at home so that a criminal doesn't get a hold of it. Keep in mind that there are alot of stupid people out there who will kill their spouses, themselves, or will go on a shooting rampage because they're nuts or deranged. Let's hope that you're not one of them.
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AZDuffman
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January 28th, 2013 at 3:40:13 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo



My general thought on the whole gun ownership boils down to this: if you want a gun, get one (or even three), learn to use it responsibly, keep it locked up when you're not at home so that a criminal doesn't get a hold of it. Keep in mind that there are alot of stupid people out there who will kill their spouses, themselves, or will go on a shooting rampage because they're nuts or deranged. Let's hope that you're not one of them.



My guy being locked in my house qualifies as being locked up. As to the rampage thing, when your number is up your number is up. Nothing can be done to stop that.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
vert1276
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January 28th, 2013 at 5:12:39 PM permalink
<facepalm> is your argument really that "more guns = more gun homicides"....because if that is the point you are trying to make we can pretty much all agree that is true....But that is irrelevant...here is another fact for you....the more car are on the road the more car deaths there will be...show me some data that says if there are less guns there will be less homicides(not just from guns).....or less violent crime...do you really think the murder victim cares if they were shot or stabbed or killed with a baseball bat or poisoned? They are still dead....

guns are the most convenient way to kill.....but if you take them away it doesn't mean all the people who would have been killed by guns would still be alive.......it just means they will find a different way to do it...In Rwanda they killed a million people in a short time with machetes...if they would have had guns they would have used guns....they are still dead either way.....

So stop with the stats of "more guns = more gun deaths" because that is common sense and irrelevant....what you should be trying to prove is less guns = less homicides of any type.....when you can prove that get back to me
Face
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January 28th, 2013 at 5:59:43 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

That said, do you want your school principal to have a gun? My friend is a teacher union leader, and he said, "the last people you want to have guns are teachers and principals. They're nuts." Speaking of anecdotal...



I can say I’m not immediately against it. There are some teachers I remember, and indeed some people I know now, that I don’t want to be around period, let alone with a gun. But of course, there are some people where I’d not think twice and would even enjoy if they carried, and that includes areas where my son is present.

Here’s how things would go in the Land of Face - Procuring a gun would require a fair and comprehensive background check to ensure you’re not a criminal and that you show good decision making abilities, as well as a minimum safety, handling and operations course. Once passed, you can have any non-select fire gun of any capacity, shoot on your own property, hunt, and keep it for home defense. For an honorable, just man, it would be easy. Checkered past? Not as easy, but not impossible. Pattern of criminal behavior? You’re done, sorry.
If you want to extend your carrying to the public and concealed carry, you’d have to attend a training course, just as you have to for advanced driving (CDL/HazMat,/Motorcycle). And not the shitty “safety courses” they force now and amount to nothing, I mean a real deal advanced training on weapons use, clearing, tactics, safety, basically the same thing our LEOs have to go through. Pass that and you can carry away.
If you want to carry everywhere, then take an advanced carry course. Mob tactics, safety in crowds, as well as a more in depth background / psych history check. Pass that, and you can carry into banks, post offices, and yes, schools. “Gun free zones” don’t apply, you have LEO level permissions. This last also permits assault rifle ownership, and I mean the only true definition of assault rifle. You can’t carry it in town, but if you want one for use on your own property, it’s yours.

All of these guns will be registered and will be sold or transferred only through a FFL dealer. P2P sales are doable, but need to go through an FFL for documentation.

Boom. The anti-gunners can take solace that gun owners are knowledgeable and deemed safe, as well as the guns themselves not seeping through the cracks into the underworld. The pro-gunners get, as a good faith for incurring slightly more costs and the stigma of registration, more freedom in where they can carry and what they can own, as well as more access to the kind of training a lot of us want anyway.

And the gun issue is solved. Anything else on the topic of violence is a social/mental health issue, and for the love of Christ, some of our energy in this gun debate needs to be focused there.

This message brought to you by Face in 2016 =D
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rainman
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January 28th, 2013 at 6:09:10 PM permalink
Oh great the Face man for prez lol. Hmmm... hell come to think of it I would vote for you. Just got my xdm a couple of days ago. :)
rxwine
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January 28th, 2013 at 7:00:27 PM permalink
Quote: Face

Here’s how things would go in the Land of Face - Procuring a gun would require a fair and comprehensive background check to ensure you’re not a criminal



I would be happy just to see this at as close to 100% as possible. Because in some cases we're literally depending on criminals to not purchase a gun on an honor system! If you don't have a check, that's all it is, is an honor system.
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P90
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January 29th, 2013 at 5:02:16 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

That said, do you want your school principal to have a gun?


Just one gun?
Probably won't make a difference. It will just sit in the safe until kingdom come.

Two separately located gun lockers so that the school's civil defense qualified personnel can, at the very least, delay the offenders, buy SWAT more time and lower the number of casualties when the next Columbine or (powers that be forbid fundie Muslims easy access) Beslan strikes?


Quote: boymimbo

My general thought on the whole gun ownership boils down to this: if you want a gun, get one (or even three), learn to use it responsibly,


Since we've mentioned schools - what better place to learn? Just focus a little less on throwing balls around and a little more on skills useful in emergency situations.
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Maverick17
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January 31st, 2013 at 3:09:25 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

If 2% of the country started a revolt, they would probably have to also get through the other 98% of the country. And yeah, the 6 million is a Hitlerian figure, but alot of people on this blog compare his Obama's actions as if he was Hitler, so why wouldn't you expect that? And he could accomplish that with a single nuke.

If Mike Tyson walked up to you, you could probably point a gun at him and he would retreat. With respect to the Jews, the armaments you had 60+ years ago would have been comparable but the German SS would have been no match for the Jews, just like the German Army overpowered say, Poland and France.

Fact is, you are three times more likely to be a victim of homocide and five times more likely to commit suicide in a house with a gun than without.

So yeah, keep a gun in your home. Protect yourself. I don't want to sound rude, but you are far more likely to be the dead one.



I have no evidence to back this up, so take it with a grain of salt, but:

Many historians believe the Italians under Mussolini were so ineffective due to the Mofia. While in this scenerio the "Mob" was attempting to exploit a weak government for profit, the reality is the Italian government needed to "protect" its homeland before it could dedicate all those resources to the Axis power.

Same could have been true for the Jews in Germany. While the odds of their survival given the circumstance was slim at best, their fight could have kept German troops at home, and not raping Poland and France, amonst others.
Statistics don't lie, they deceive.
wella
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February 3rd, 2013 at 9:38:08 PM permalink
i just tell all antigunners the same thing that the king of the spartans told Zerxes. "Molon Labe". come take them, but I will kill you by the millions, in other ways. the guns are just to cover my butt while the real killing machines, like fire, poison, infighting, starvation, disease run up enough numbers to change things.
s2dbaker
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February 7th, 2013 at 5:39:05 PM permalink
If only these on-duty police officers had a gun with which to protect themselves! Clearly the solution is more guns.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
treetopbuddy
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February 7th, 2013 at 6:13:00 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

If only these on-duty police officers had a gun with which to protect themselves! Clearly the solution is more guns.

300,000,000 guns and counting......just how are the guns to be taken away....and who is going to do it....? The gun debate is silly at best.
Each day is better than the next
s2dbaker
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February 8th, 2013 at 12:43:41 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

If only these on-duty police officers had a gun with which to protect themselves! Clearly the solution is more guns.

Shoot first, ask questions later.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
rainman
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February 8th, 2013 at 12:51:07 PM permalink
Quote: s2dbaker

Quote: s2dbaker

If only these on-duty police officers had a gun with which to protect themselves! Clearly the solution is more guns.

Shoot first, ask questions later.



That's some good police work. Shoot first identify your target afterwards. :)
s2dbaker
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February 8th, 2013 at 2:14:17 PM permalink
Quote: rainman

Quote: s2dbaker

Quote: s2dbaker

If only these on-duty police officers had a gun with which to protect themselves! Clearly the solution is more guns.

Shoot first, ask questions later.



That's some good police work. Shoot first identify your target afterwards. :)

I wonder what was the capital offense that required instant execution by hail of police bullets, driving a pick-up truck or delivering newspapers.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
s2dbaker
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February 10th, 2013 at 8:07:52 PM permalink
If only 5 year old Max Walters or his former police officer mother had a gun with which to protect themselves from their Las Vegas police lieutenant father. Clearly the answer is more guns!!
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
EvenBob
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February 10th, 2013 at 8:17:27 PM permalink
Charlie Sheen owns one of these, a Super 90
shotgun and he threatened to blow somebody's
head off last year. Then he said about the school
shooting that the guy never should have been
able to get that gun. Now he's applauding the
cop who's on the loose for killing people with a
gun. Good ol Charlie, he makes no excuses for
being a Hollywood whacko..

"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
EvenBob
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February 13th, 2013 at 5:43:38 PM permalink
Ernest Hemingway owned four of these 1930's Colt Woodsman's.
He took one with him everywhere when he was hunting, even in
Africa. He used it for target practice and personal protection.
My 1950's High Standard looks exactly like it.

"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
stoneynv
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February 13th, 2013 at 5:46:12 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Charlie Sheen owns one of these, a Super 90
shotgun and he threatened to blow somebody's
head off last year. Then he said about the school
shooting that the guy never should have been
able to get that gun. Now he's applauding the
cop who's on the loose for killing people with a
gun. Good ol Charlie, he makes no excuses for
being a Hollywood whacko..

Before I make a move I always ask myself.....WWCSD....What would Charlie Sheen do?
EvenBob
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February 13th, 2013 at 6:06:51 PM permalink
One of the saddest stories is after Hemingway died, his
wife consigned 4 of his shotguns to Abercrombie in NYC.
One of them was his favorite, a Winchester 1912 shotgun
he had bought in the early 30's. It was worn from use, all
the bluing gone.

A college age kid saw it for sale for $35 and bought it and
used it for a couple decades, never knowing it was Hemingway's.
He eventually sold it, he doesn't remember to who. What
that gun is worth today is anybody's guess, I'm sure the guy
who sold it is sick about it.

This is Hemingway with his 'beloved 12' in 1939:

"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
stoneynv
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February 13th, 2013 at 6:09:26 PM permalink
great pics....good stuff
rxwine
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February 14th, 2013 at 12:31:46 AM permalink
Shot his model girlfriend. Story is, he may have thought she was a burglar. We'll see if that holds up.

Quote:

Pistorius is a double-amputee who ran with the aid of prosthetic limbs during the London Olympics last year. His debut made him the first Paralympian to
compete in the able bodied Olympics.



Reminds me, of a father who shot his daughter who jumped out of the closet, when he thought she wasn't suppose to be home. What is there --- less than a second to decide that someone jumping out at you is friend or foe?

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/14/world/africa/south-africa-blade-runner-shooting/
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Face
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February 18th, 2013 at 7:35:54 PM permalink
I hope Wiz doesn't get upset at cross posting, but DT isn't frequented as often as here and I wanted to repost something from Firearms With Face as it is right on topic with vert's OP.

So I went to the gun show this weekend. I'm a NY'er, so we've "closed the gun show loophole" (hey, I said it without dying laughing!) We've shut down the P2P sales, we require a NICS check for just about everything now. Here's what happened to me this weekend...

Quote: Face From DT

I went to buy the 91/30, it was obvious I was the buyer. I did most of the talking to the vendor, I did the handling and inspecting, I was asking the questions. This went on for maybe 25 minutes until my inspection was complete and I said “I’ll take it.” The vendor went to get the NICS paperwork and, since it was so crowded, handed it to Pops to pass over. Pops, for whatever reason, just started filling it out.

I continued to go over the gun, talking to Ash and the vendor until Pops was done with the paperwork, at which time I quite obviously counted out the cash in front of everyone and handed it to him, and he handed it and the paperwork over to the vendor. The guy called in Pop’s info to NICS, cleared him, then turned over the gun. Pops received it and handed it right over to me. A few more niceties were spoken, and then we left.



So, apparently, Pops is good to go and of sound mind to own a gun. What about me?! It's my freaking gun, every single person involved was completely aware it was my gun, yet Face was in no way, shape, or form run through NICS. What's the bloody point?

Before anyone tells me we did nothing wrong, yes, I know. Family to family transactions are exempt from a NICS check. But the father/son connection we have wasn't communicated, he could've been any one of my friends that are 15-20 years older than me, which the majority of my friends are. So, for all you antis who applauded this crack down, there you go. You should be just as pissed off as we pros are.
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bbvk05
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February 18th, 2013 at 7:57:57 PM permalink
According to the ATF's guidance that was an illegal straw purchase even if it is family to family and even if both of you are allowed to buy. The reason is that your father lied on the form. He is not the actual purchaser yet he claimed he is.

GIFTS are exempted because the gift giver is the actual purchaser. Family to family transactions ARE NOT exempted if someone lies on the 4473.
treetopbuddy
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February 18th, 2013 at 8:18:00 PM permalink
Quote: bbvk05

According to the ATF's guidance that was an illegal straw purchase even if it is family to family and even if both of you are allowed to buy. The reason is that your father lied on the form. He is not the actual purchaser yet he claimed he is.

GIFTS are exempted because the gift giver is the actual purchaser. Family to family transactions ARE NOT exempted if someone lies on the 4473.

never lie to the BEAST
Each day is better than the next
Face
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Face
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February 18th, 2013 at 9:12:20 PM permalink
Quote: bbvk05

According to the ATF's guidance that was an illegal straw purchase even if it is family to family and even if both of you are allowed to buy. The reason is that your father lied on the form. He is not the actual purchaser yet he claimed he is.

GIFTS are exempted because the gift giver is the actual purchaser. Family to family transactions ARE NOT exempted if someone lies on the 4473.



Perhaps, but in a way he did buy it, he just gifted it really damn quick lol. In any case, that wasn't the true point of my question. What I was pointing out that even here, right in the immediate present when rules are usually adhered to before everyone gets lax and kind of shrugs them off, we, with no intention of disobedience, totally and somewhat accidentally gave the finger to NYS's SAFE Act. And No One Cared.

I guess I just wanted to point out a fact in all of the suppositions and arguements I've made this whole time and in every anti-gun arguement I've engaged in, and give, not in a smartass jab kind of way, but a cautionary "I told you so".

I've said it a million times, I am not "anti-control", even though I am an admitted gun nut. But when I say "no" to something, it's not a far-right, civil-war-is-upon-us, extremist viewpoint. Mostly, I hoping an anti takes notice and gets pissed. They've been and are being lied to all along.
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bbvk05
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February 18th, 2013 at 9:39:39 PM permalink
Quote: Face

Perhaps, but in a way he did buy it, he just gifted it really damn quick lol. In any case, that wasn't the true point of my question. What I was pointing out that even here, right in the immediate present when rules are usually adhered to before everyone gets lax and kind of shrugs them off, we, with no intention of disobedience, totally and somewhat accidentally gave the finger to NYS's SAFE Act. And No One Cared.

I guess I just wanted to point out a fact in all of the suppositions and arguements I've made this whole time and in every anti-gun arguement I've engaged in, and give, not in a smartass jab kind of way, but a cautionary "I told you so".

I've said it a million times, I am not "anti-control", even though I am an admitted gun nut. But when I say "no" to something, it's not a far-right, civil-war-is-upon-us, extremist viewpoint. Mostly, I hoping an anti takes notice and gets pissed. They've been and are being lied to all along.





I agree. Background checks are pointless wastes of time and money.
AcesAndEights
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February 19th, 2013 at 1:14:39 PM permalink
Quote: treetopbuddy

never lie to the BEAST


"Computers don't make mistakes. What they do, they do on purpose. Right now, your information's being fed into every computer mainframe, satellite, laptop, and supermarket scanner that make up the Global conspiracy known as...The Beast." -Dale Gribble
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
vert1276
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February 20th, 2013 at 7:36:47 PM permalink
your father has a CCW? otherwise their is a waiting period on all firearms sales bought through a FFL in NY state right?
s2dbaker
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February 21st, 2013 at 11:08:29 AM permalink
Too bad the guy in the Maserati didn't have a gun with which to defend himself. Clearly the answer is more guns.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
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