"Playing dirty"

In the friendly bet thread, someone declared that the Wiz's opponent 'played dirty'. There are some things that are not expressly covered by rules of a game, that many would consider 'wrong'. Baseball is a game full of such occurrences. The one that stands out was when a Yankee (I believe Jeter) acted like he was shot when a ball came near him (but did not actually hit him) in an effort to fool the ump intp awarding him first base. It worked. Catchers routinely move their gloves to mislead the umpires as to the actual location of the ball so that a strike is called when it was actually a ball. Players have acted as if they have tossed the ball back to a pitcher while keeping it in their glove hoping the runner strays off of the base they are occupying. In the NFL I've seen a receiver fall down intentionally as if they hurt an ankle, only to later get up during the play and be open for a reception. And let's not even get into that pseudo sport, soccer, where acting like you've been injured is an art form. The NHL is the only sport that I know that has a penalty for intentionally trying to mislead the ref- "2 minutes for diving".... I'm not sure if I have a question for the forum, but I remember being repulsed by the Yankee writhing in pain as the ball missed him, while the announcers were lauding his competitiveness, 'he'll do anything for his team' type blather.

I always got a kick out of watching runners from first to second running way outside the line trying to distract the second baseman from catching, or from throwing out the runner at first during a double-play. Or how about the runner from third to home deliberately slamming into the catcher so he drops the ball he just caught. Some of those are downright deadly slams. Runner could just slide into home and hope for the best, but chooses to plow into catcher like a truck into a wall. Guess it happens all the time so it's part of the game. But in poker, we call it an angleshot, and it's punishable by a penalty in tournaments.

It can be no-holds-barred in athletic competition, but one thing about that, the unwritten rules are understood, and consequences are understood prior to the game.

I was listening on the radio to some retired NFL players say, yes, they would try to aggravate another player's injury, which made me wince. But they said this was understood as an unwritten rule, you just do it. The same players said that to try to cause an injury outright was not considered acceptable [like to ruin someone's knee on purpose when he was ok to start with].

The goal is to win... but not get caught for just how you did it.

Friendly bet? Friendly bets don't get arbitrated by judges.

Here is another I remember reading form way back in the day in NASCAR.

In the late 1960s NASCAR vehicles were based on actual stock cars you could buy at a dealer. One problem was the tires used in race conditions were taller than street tires so they had to cut little towers in the front fenders. Look at a picture of a Road Runner Superbird if you need to see a visual.

So a driver comes in to qualify and doesn't cut the towers in the fenders. This was a big advantage aerodynamically and the other drivers cried foul. His reply was, "The rule book doesn't say you have to cut in the towers, it says you can if you want to." Powers that be agreed and he easily won the pole position.

Right after he started cutting the towers in the fenders. Now the drivers really went crazy. His reply was, "It says you can cut the towers if you want to, it doesn't say *when* you have to cut them in."

Again, letter of the law being followed he was allowed to do so.

Sometimes you have to admire outside the box thinking. But this is why rulebooks are so thick.

Quote: SOOPOO

And let's not even get into that pseudo sport, soccer, where acting like you've been injured is an art form.

I think that's the point of the so called game.

Anyway, misleading the opposing team is not playing dirty. Half of the success of most offensive plays in football lies in fooling the defense. The other half is execution (it does you no good to throw off coverage if you're not where the QB will be throwing the ball).

Misleading the officials is cheating.

There are no explicit penalties in football for that, but the rules are set up to prevent some forms of it. If a player fakes an injury in order to stop the clock after the 2 minute warning, his team gets charged with a time out, for example. The downside is that a time out is charged for legitimate injuries as well.

Quote: AZDuffman

Sometimes you have to admire outside the box thinking. But this is why rulebooks are so thick.

They could have said no modifications once you submit your car for initial qualifying runs.

Out of the box?
Thats like diverting River water to surround a barge or building that is by no means seaworthy or concocting some fake tribe in Connecticut to open a casino or filing an ownership claim on land that has sand which contains the mineral mica and therefore qualifies as a mining claim under an 1853 law that didn't envision the land being worth millions for its proximity to a resort town.

Quote: SOOPOO

And let's not even get into that pseudo sport, soccer, where acting like you've been injured is an art form.

Well ... a few things. First, even us soccer fans hate that part of the game, and that goes across all nations and cultures ... except Italy. Players who get caught doing it can get carded, ejected, or worse. The ejection is not for just the current game, but for the next game too. That is a VERY stiff penalty. Imagine if Jeter did his "dive" during Game 5 of the World Series. An equivalent penalty says he gets kicked out of Game 5 AND can't play in Game 6. So ... name me a sport that penalizes diving more harshly than soccer does. They may not penalize it often enough IYO, but when they do, it's VERY harsh.

Also ... all other sports use similar "gamesmanship." Basketball is probably next-worse after soccer. Nobody looks at flopping as a "good" thing, but someone who does it is looked at as "high basketball IQ" as opposed to "that pseudo sport basketball."

Third ... imagine what it's like when you hit your funny bone. It hurts like EFFING HELL ... for about a minute, then you're fine. Soccer contact is often like that ... two guys at near-full speed in opposite directions .. then *CLIP*, an ankle bone hits a cleat or something. I can tell you, it hurst like EFFING HELL ... for about a minute, then you're fine and can go on like nothing happened.

Now ... I'm guessing you don't like soccer, and that's fine, not all sports are for everyone. And, I know I'm not going to convince you to like it, and I'm not trying. So no snarky "soccer sucks" comments are needed.

But having played soccer and football at the D-1 (now BCS) level (7 letters in the two sports), I can tell you that soccer workouts are harder to get through than a football practice. Not across-the-board, of course, but in general, soccer is way harder. But at other levels ...

* you can play a pick-up basketball game, but you couldn't complete a soccer game
* you can play a round of golf, but you couldn't complete a soccer game
* you can sit at a poker table for 13 hours in the WSOP, but you couldn't complete a soccer game

Soccer is a VERY difficult sport with very high physical and technical demands. I would only put swimming and water polo as more physically demanding, maybe rugby.

So .. if you don't like it, that's fine. But a little respect, please.

Quote: FleaStiff

Friendly bet? Friendly bets don't get arbitrated by judges.

The use of a judge to skirt the rules only demands the involvement of a higher judge. Judges ignore the rules for a living. Don't believe me? Check out any state's Court of Appeals minutes.

Quote: FleaStiff

They could have said no modifications once you submit your car for initial qualifying runs.

They could have, but they didn't.

Here is another example.

Will Wolford was an OL for the Buffalo Bills and a "restricted" free agent, meaning if he signed elsewhere the Bills could match the contract and keep him. So the Colts made him a contract worth I forget what, say $1MM just to say a number, it was probably much higher. In the contract was a clause that Wolford would be one of the 5 highest-paid players on the team, in this case the then-terrible Colts. The Bills said, "we match the $1MM." Wolford's agent said, "no, matching mean matching, he has to be one of the 5 highest paid on the team."

This is when the Bills were in their SB run. To make him among the 5 highest-paid would have paid him say $4MM and been a salary-cap buster.

This instituted the "Will Wolford Rule" which said matching meant the hard-salary number only and not any clauses like that. But the rule didn't apply to Wolford and he went to IND.

I like watching soccer, but it always kills me when a player goes down like he's been hit by a sniper, rolls around in apparent agony for 15-20 seconds, and then when he realizes he's not going to get the call, jumps up and sprints after the ball at full speed.

Quote: ItsCalledSoccer

But having played soccer and football at the D-1 (now BCS) level (7 letters in the two sports), I can tell you that soccer workouts are harder to get through than a football practice. Not across-the-board, of course, but in general, soccer is way harder. But at other levels ...

* you can play a pick-up basketball game, but you couldn't complete a soccer game
* you can play a round of golf, but you couldn't complete a soccer game
* you can sit at a poker table for 13 hours in the WSOP, but you couldn't complete a soccer game

I've never played basketball, but even on my unfittest of days I've played pick up soccer. I was bloody awful at it, but at the pick up level, so was most of the other players and a dynamic fast flowing game wasn't really what was called for.

However, it does reward good stamina and agility, with some body strength required, but not too much. I'd suggest Rugby is more intense as body strength as well as conditioning is required.

Soccer indeed does penalize "simulation". And as you say, getting clipped on the shin/ankle really does hurt. Does it hurt as much as some players will pretend? Maybe not... but there we go.

Quote: AZDuffman

This instituted the "Will Wolford Rule" which said matching meant the hard-salary number only and not any clauses like that. But the rule didn't apply to Wolford and he went to IND.

Minnesota got Steve Hutchinson from Seattle with a similar trick. They stated in his contract he'd be the top earning lineman on the team, or his money was guaranteed for the life of the contract. Seattle had just resigned Walter Jones for a huge contract, and couldn't match the offer sheet from Minnesota.

Seattle then offer Nate Burleson on a deal from Minnesota with additional language where his money became guaranteed if he played more than 5 games in a season in Minnesota State.

Problem was, Burleson is an good but not great wide reciever, while Hutchinson is a future Hall of Famer and at the time one of the best blind side guards in the game... Minnesota weren't hurt as much by the departure of Burleson as Seattle were by Hutch leaving (it was one reason they didn't do quite as well in the following seasons).

Quote: thecesspit

However, it does reward good stamina and agility, with some body strength required, but not too much.

Yes, and so?

I was forced to play sucker in elementary school (yes, forced; I never wanted to play). It does require all that, but it's still pointless, boring and mind-numbing. And histrionics are a dime a dozen, two dozen on Sundays. It's not even a good workout.

By the fifth grade I finally figured how to get out of it: I played "dirty." No, I didn't go around hurting any players. I merely grabbed the ball every chance I got.

Quote: Nareed

(snip)

Sigh, we get it you don't like Soccer. Give it a rest.

Quote: thecesspit

Sigh, we get it you don't like Soccer. Give it a rest.

"Don't like"? No, it's much worse than that.

Besides, I was responding to the claim that it takes a lot of stamina to play sucker. I admit it does, but that it isn't relevant to the lack of quality or merit on the so-called sport. It takes a lot more stamina to run a triathlon, but that doesn't make watching one interesting either.

Quote: Nareed

(snip)

Really. We get it. Promise.

I was just trying to get in a friendly dig at "ItsCalledSoccer". I see it worked. I probably watch more soccer than all but one of the members of this forum. It takes great athletic ability to play it at the top levels. Of course anyone can play pick up soccer, but that is irrelevant. Anyone can golf, anyone can bike, etc... If I watch 200 matches a year, I cannot remember the last player carded for faking. The women's world cup match against Brazil was a striking example. One of the Brazilians missed a shot, looked both ways (presumably to see if the refs were watching), then fell carefully to the ground to writhe in pain. They eventually carted her off, and seconds later she was running back into the game.

Quote: SOOPOO

I was just trying to get in a friendly dig at "ItsCalledSoccer". I see it worked. I probably watch more soccer than all but one of the members of this forum. It takes great athletic ability to play it at the top levels. Of course anyone can play pick up soccer, but that is irrelevant. Anyone can golf, anyone can bike, etc... If I watch 200 matches a year, I cannot remember the last player carded for faking. The women's world cup match against Brazil was a striking example. One of the Brazilians missed a shot, looked both ways (presumably to see if the refs were watching), then fell carefully to the ground to writhe in pain. They eventually carted her off, and seconds later she was running back into the game.

Heh, okay, you got me. In the words of Dexter, "Chops are busted!"

The WWC Brazil thing was pretty over-the-top, and all the pundits that I heard were wondering if the "cynicism" of the men's game (fake diving, etc.) was creeping into the women's game. It was a sad day for soccer purists, as it gave haters something high-profile to latch on to. But FWIW, that player was given a yellow card for it.

There's another Dexter-ism that can be used for Italian soccer players divers: "I already have the bag."

Quote: SOOPOO

It takes great athletic ability to play it at the top levels.

Certainly.

Bullfighters also posses great athletic abilities, and lots of other skills. All they do, for all these abilities, is taunt and torture a poor beast which doesn't know any better.

Look, BJ is a popular game among the members of this forum, I dare say the most popular. It's also a very popular game in most Vegas casinos, I dare say if we include all the 21 variants (6:5, Spanish 21, etc) perhaps the most popular. Playing it well, which means counting, requires a great deal of mental ability and discipline.

I don't care for it. Regardless of whether it's popular or not, or even that it is usually the best bet (or lowest house edge) in the casino. Nevertheless, no one on this board claims it's the only game that should be played, that everyone should play ti, or even that everyone should like it.

So why is it when it comes to sucker, do fans insist on pushing it on those of us who don't like it? Why do they come up with the kid of ability it takes to play it professionally as if that were relevant to enjoyment? Why do they bring up its popularity as if that were relevant, either?

Well, while they do that, and I don't mean just on this board, I will take any opportunity to belittle their poor excuse for a time waster, which believe me is incredibly easy to do.

Quote: Nareed

(snip)

I wonder what part of "we get it" is so hard to understand.

But ... the soccer fans here say that it's a great game. They're not forcing it on you. It would be interesting to see the post that you take to understand that, you, Nareed, MUST be a soccer fan. Citing that post for us would either help us understand where you're coming from or expose some weird predisposition on your part.

OTOH, you "force" the GLBT Corner on the forum. So ... you seem to have no problem with people being "forced" around per se. The problem lies somewhere else, then.

I don't speak for soccer fans on this forum, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that we, as a group, are okay that you don't like soccer. Just stop trying to force us to not like soccer.

Predicted Nareed response: goes into some "you just hate because of (whatever)" rant or "I can't help that (whatever)" whine rather than shows us the post that he thinks is "forcing" him to like soccer.

The problem with these examples as they pertain to The Wiz's bet is that these are professional events, where winning isn't everything, it's the only thing. Playing well, playing with honor, or playing your best isn't the ultimate goal. In any professional sport, you almost NEED to stretch the limits of the rule book to the point of breaking.

AZ's NASCAR example is a good one. Those types of issues are still quite prevalant, especially in NASCAR's lower series. My uncle built race cars for years and had a bag of tricks a mile deep, cutting holes in oil tanks, shaving differentials, connecting harnesses through the floor to the chassis to adjust balance... you did what you had to do to win. While some were pretty much illegal, most were things you just wouldn't expect someone to do (a good side impact with chassis supported harnesses would effectively crush a driver). When millions if not billions of dollars are at stake, when your value as a player is being judged, when an entire city is involved, hijinks are expected.

Generally, even though I pride myself on the honor I personally play with, these stretches of the rules often bring a certain amount of joy. When the Rangers faced the Devils in the playoffs, Sean Avery got in Martin Brodeur's face, waving his stick, waving his arms, just doing everything in his power to screen the goalie without actually pushing him over. With hockey being such an honorable sport, and with Avery being one of the most hated players, many found it very unproper. But even with my "honor comes first" attitude, I thought it was genious. It was certainly (then) within the rules, and he was doing everything he could to help his team even though he was risking several punches to the face and definate headhunting for the rest of the series, but he did what had to be done. As long as "dirty" doesn't imply intentional injury (Samuelsson ending Neely's career, Suter crushing Turgeon after goal, Edwards flipping Keselowski nearly into the grandstands), I can generally appreciate these actions as people doing whatever it takes to win. There are times when I wish these children making a zillion dollars to play a game would honor up and be men (NFL grandstanding especially), but I guess I'd rather have that then some sterile contest. I mean, would you push your morals aside and flop like a dieing fish for $100mm? This guy would.

But, this was a "friendly bet". Hijinks, by my definition, are expressly forbidden. You don't spike your 2nd base friend to break a double play. You don't blow your friend off the plate with high heat. You don't slew-foot your winger friend in front of the net. You don't elbow a friend off of a rebound in the paint. You don't turn your friend into the Turn 1 wall. You don't let your friend play soccer (Ha! j/k =P) You get my point. There is no room for dishonor amongst friends.

Quote: Face

The problem with these examples as they pertain to The Wiz's bet is that these are professional events, where winning isn't everything, it's the only thing. Playing well, playing with honor, or playing your best isn't the ultimate goal. In any professional sport, you almost NEED to stretch the limits of the rule book to the point of breaking.

But pro sports have rules and penalties to prevent such things. For example, the O line in an NFL team could give their QB lots of time to find a receiver by the simple expedient of grabbing their opponents when they rush the passer. But the rules don't allow that. On the other hand, defensive backs could simply grab the receiver's arms to keep him from catching anything. But again the rules don't allow it.

In both cases the officials would mark a penalty and enforce it against the offensive team. So what good does it do to give your QB more time, if the result is the pass won't count, and you must repat the down ten yards further back?

The NFL, BTW, goes further than merely ruling penalties on the field. It can also levy fines against players who break the rules, even if such actions went un-penalized during the game.

So, sure, pro teams and players will do whatever it takes to win, and that includes playing by the rules. because if they don't, they get penalized and make losing a lot more likely. Plenty of teams have lost a close game for a stupid penalty.

I want to repat that deception isn't against the rules or, for that matter, agaisnt good sportsmanship. Depsite the physical aspects of the game, football is mostly a battle of wits between coaches. Miami had one grand season recently when it won a lot simply by doing things nobody expected, the year they introduced the wildcat formations and plays. it worked remarkably well, they stumped the Pats and even made the playoffs.

But then the rest of the League caught up, devised defenses for the wildcat plays, and made use of wildcat plays fo their own. it happnes all the time. Back in the 90s Cincinnati and Buffalo shocked the League by going on a no-huddle offense. There was a major hue and cry from other teams, cries fo unfairness, etc. But then everyone devised such countermeasures as they could and copied the no-huddle model on offense. To this day you expect teams to go no-huddle when low on time near the end of the half and the game.

All within the rules.

.....

ICS: How did you manage to play D-1 soccer and football simultaneously in the fall? I didn't think any school would allow that.

I referee all levels of college soccer and thankfully we don't really have the flopping problem that is seen at higher levels.

Quote: Nareed

I will take any opportunity to belittle their poor excuse for a time waster, which believe me is incredibly easy to do.

This is called being a troll. When it comes to this subject, you are indeed a rude and insensitive troll.

Quote: gofaster87

Dont worry he/she will put you on ignore since you're not on their bandwagon. Its Nareeds way or the highway. This thing has no life.

Do you really want to start a flame war you can't win over criticism of a game?

We have an interesting thread going on here. Is it worth it to get it moved to Free Speech just so you can vent your spleen at me? Am I that important to you?

Quote: kp

This is called being a troll. When it comes to this subject, you are indeed a rude and insensitive troll.

You'll notice I'm making fun of a game, and the people who play and officiate it. Not the people who, for some reason, enjoy watching it or are avid followers.

If that be trolling, make the most of it.

[.....

Quote: gofaster8

Believe me when I say I haven't talked to one board member that has anything nice to say about you.

How many have you actually talked to? I think Nareed is a very nice person.

Quote: matilda

How many have you actually talked to? I think Nareed is a very nice person.

Why thank you. You are nice to say so.

Quote: Nareed

But pro sports have rules and penalties to prevent such things. [snip]

Indeed. But I wasn't talking about "rules" necessarily, but more to the honor one plays with. If playing backyard football you wouldn't expect a buddy to pull a crack back block and lay you out, or "accidentally" clip an ankle on a cross route, or to knee you in the junk during a fumble scrum. Why? Because it's a Friendly Game. You're playing to have fun, not because your multi-million dollar career is on the line. In every major sport, this bending of the rules is a part of the game and understandably so. Just as your holding example is "against the rules" but happens on every single play in every single game, special teams included. It's just the most egregious and blatant ones that get caught. If a lineman or blocking back didn't hold in some fashion, he would not be long for the NFL. The trick is not getting caught.

And I have no problem with deception, as it is what makes sports fun. My career was filled with just sublime examples that we still talk about to this day, from hidden ball tricks, pick off moves purposely thrown to centerfield, epic fake punt ruses, fake past balls, we were a bunch of jokers. But that's competitive sports where deception is part of the game, NOT a freindly contest between friends. Imagine I bet my buddy he won't hit a double this game, and at his last at bat he rips on into right field past the fielder. As he rounds 1st base, I, as base coach, stick out a leg and trip him up, holding him to a single. Who would applaud me and congratulate my win of the wager? I see no difference between that and The Wiz's bet.

Quote: Face

Just as your holding example is "against the rules" but happens on every single play in every single game, special teams included. It's just the most egregious and blatant ones that get caught. If a lineman or blocking back didn't hold in some fashion, he would not be long for the NFL. The trick is not getting caught.

Do you have any evidence for such a claim? It stands tor eason that if every play included holding it would be called a lot more often. Evn if not, the announcers would notice it. And even if they don't, the fans would.

I have seen holds that don't get called, and blocks on the back, and plenty of other things. That's to be expected. But I'm sure I'd notice if it happened more often.

Quote:

As he rounds 1st base, I, as base coach, stick out a leg and trip him up, holding him to a single. Who would applaud me and congratulate my win of the wager? I see no difference between that and The Wiz's bet.

Yeah, but Who's on first? :P

I'm sorry, but the Abbot and Costello sketch is the only good thing about baseball. anyway, yes, you're right.

Quote: Nareed

Do you have any evidence for such a claim? It stands tor eason that if every play included holding it would be called a lot more often. Evn if not, the announcers would notice it. And even if they don't, the fans would.

From the NFL RULE BOOK - "Holding: A runner may ward off opponents with his hands and arms but no other player on offense may use hands or arms to obstruct an opponent by grasping with hands, pushing, or encircling any part of his body during a block. Hands (open or closed) can be thrust forward to initially contact an opponent on or outside the opponent’s frame, but the blocker immediately must work to bring his hands on or inside the frame."

Every single offensive blocker, with the exception of skill players who will typically just bump and/or dive at a defenders legs, grab a fistfull of jersey at the chest and grapple a defender. By NFL rules (grasping with hands) that is holding. Most people think of holding as the obvious grab and pull, as in a lineman getting beat around the end and he holds back a defender by the jersey to save his QB's life. But in reality, nearly every block in every age of pro football includes holding to some extent by the definition given by the NFL Rule Book.

I'm not sure of what kind of coverage you get in Mexico, but Sabol's NFL Films productions often put on excellent shows featuring behind the scenes stuff with commentary from players and coaches who often describe how badly rules are broken every game. I assumed you must have seen them since you have quite the knowledge of football history, but maybe someone here can back me up on this.

Quote: Nareed

Yeah, but Who's on first? :P

I'm sorry, but the Abbot and Costello sketch is the only good thing about baseball. anyway, yes, you're right.

Pretty much agreed. I almost watched one entire game, when Ripken broke the ironman record. Even when my BlueJay's had their World Series run in the early 90's I couldn't stomach a whole 9 innings. I don't regret my 20 years of playing as it was some of the funnest years of my life, but if I wasn't too poor to afford ice hockey back then, I probably would have opted out.

Quote: Face

Every single offensive blocker, with the exception of skill players who will typically just bump and/or dive at a defenders legs, grab a fistfull of jersey at the chest and grapple a defender. By NFL rules (grasping with hands) that is holding.

I see all linemen, pretty much, on both sides, push each other with their hands. Not so much hold on to the other guy's jersey, which would be holding by the definition you quoted. I just don't see it on every play.

Quote:

I'm not sure of what kind of coverage you get in Mexico, but Sabol's NFL Films productions often put on excellent shows featuring behind the scenes stuff with commentary from players and coaches who often describe how badly rules are broken every game.

We get the same game coverage you do, except when it's on local TV or the lesser regional cable channels (sorry, but that's what they are), the audio is replaced by local announcers (typically a three-man crew). Sunday and Monday night games are on ESPN, which also has its lesser regional network, bu carries the original audio. I do miss John Madden.

In the old days, when we got real ESPN and had channels carrying NBC, ABC and CBS affiliates, there was a plethora of pregame shows, post game shows, NFL Primetime and plenty of NFL Films specials. That died around 1995. But recently I get NFL Network, the one and only, on cable. They just did a wonderful special on the history of the AFL.

So, yeah, I've hard players talk about all the dirty tricks they pull. What goes on within a pile should give anyone considering a pro career pause, too, or at least consider the usefulness of eye protection. Back in the day, the Steelers and Raiders played dirty when facing each other.

Quote:

I assumed you must have seen them since you have quite the knowledge of football history, but maybe someone here can back me up on this.

Not really. I was there for much of it, that's all. I won't even claim to have any kind of deep understanding of the game.

Quote: Nareed

I see all linemen, pretty much, on both sides, push each other with their hands. Not so much hold on to the other guy's jersey, which would be holding by the definition you quoted. I just don't see it on every play.

Then you don't know what to look for. There is holding on (virtually) every play. I added virtually because at the end of games there are kneel down plays where there is almost no contact at all.

Quote: SOOPOO

Then you don't know what to look for. There is holding on (virtually) every play. I added virtually because at the end of games there are kneel down plays where there is almost no contact at all.

I don't know what to look for, but I know from other people that there's technical infraction on most plays...

Quote: SOOPOO

Then you don't know what to look for. There is holding on (virtually) every play. I added virtually because at the end of games there are kneel down plays where there is almost no contact at all.

LOL thanks SOOPOO, I almost added the kneel down exception in my OP. If you watch on every single block, the contact is initiated by the O-lineman grabbing the jersey at the defender's chest and lifting, forcing the defender up into more of a standing position, thereby giving leverage. By definition, this is holding and illegal. The holding call, though, is usually only given when the defender makes a move in any direction not immediately towards the lineman, which causes the (incorrect) fan belief of what holding really is. If ref's got paid by the hour, or if they wanted to destroy football, a holding call could be made every play and no one could dispute it. Any time an offensive player closes a hand on any part of a defender's person or equipment, it is technically holding per the NFL rule book. And THAT happens on every play sans kneel downs.

Last December, I started playing Ultimate Frisbee with a group of friends. I had never played this sport before, and being the oldest person out there with a group of people half my age, I can attest to the workout it forces on me. Our group doesn't play with the exact rules, but I was interested when, in searching for information regarding the actual rules, I can across the following:

Quote:

Ultimate has traditionally relied upon a spirit of sportsmanship which places the responsibility for fair play on the player. Highly competitive play is encouraged, but never at the expense of the bond of mutual respect between players, adherence to the agreed upon rules of the game, or the basic joy of play. Protection of these vital elements serves to eliminate adverse conduct from the Ultimate field. Such actions as taunting of opposing players, dangerous aggression, intentional fouling, or other 'win-at-all-costs' behavior are contrary to the spirit of the game and must be avoided by all players.

For me, this thread's topic is one of interest. Yes, we see dirty playing in professional sports. Sometimes it is even encouraged. Sometimes it is strategic. But I wonder if those professional sports could ever live with the quoted rule. I suppose, even if it was mutually agreed upon by all players, someone would eventually resort to playing dirty.

Quote: konceptum

...For me, this thread's topic is one of interest. Yes, we see dirty playing in professional sports. Sometimes it is even encouraged. Sometimes it is strategic. But I wonder if those professional sports could ever live with the quoted rule. I suppose, even if it was mutually agreed upon by all players, someone would eventually resort to playing dirty.

That quote is beautiful. I think every youth sport should have it plaqued and hanging in the locker room.

In professional sports, though, I don't think it'd work. For one, there's the money. The bigger sports (Baseball, Football, Futbol, Auto Racing, Hockey, Basketball) are billion dollar organizations (I leave out golf because it's civil). A billion dollars trumps sportsmanship everytime, without question. For a multi-million dollar contract, even I'd grab a jersey or pretend I caught a ball when I know I didn't. For simply money, no, but once the amount crosses that threshhold to where it becomes my primary source of income, to where that's how I feed my family, then yeah, barring intentional maiming of someone, I'd do whatever it takes.

Second... it just wouldn't be the same. Imagine every NFL playoff game looking like the Pro-Bowl. Nobody wants to see that. I would like to see SOME of those traits added to the game, namely the removal of the grandstanding, "look at me" attitude so prevalent in the NFL. You scored a TD, that's great. Now go congratulate the 20some people that made that possible for you. Take the sombrero off, put down the f*ing popcorn, and honor the game, your teammates and your opponents. That's the primary reason I prefer NHL to NFL. There's just some things, unwritten, that you don't do, and most of them deal with disrespect, whether of the game or of your opponent. Disrespect in the NFL is rewarded with commentator spotlights and highlight reel segments, disrespect in the NHL is rewarded with a knuckle sandwich. The way it should be.

It is interesting that someone mentioned golf. Golf has a large set of rules that sometimes seem to not make sense. However, each player is responsible for policing himself, and will call a penalty on himself if indicated. There are myriad examples of tournaments lost due to self reported infractions. In tennis, before the advent of the instant replay system, a player would show a ballmark to a competitor and either give the point to the competitor or claim the point for himself depending on where the ballmark was. These sports built honor into the framework of their games, which is different from NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, Soccer, and "will the car come to a full stop" type sports.

Honor is what the cheat displays when he knows someone is watching.

Quote: SOOPOO

Then you don't know what to look for. There is holding on (virtually) every play. I added virtually because at the end of games there are kneel down plays where there is almost no contact at all.

Maybe I don't- But if this is so, then the rule needs to be changed. When a rule isn't enforced, or is enforced capriciously, it's either useless or unfair. Granted officials are supposed to use their judgment (was it pass interference or unintentional tangling?), but if they let go 9.999% of all holds, then obviously some holding is allowed and the rules should reflect that.

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Quote: Face

I would like to see SOME of those traits added to the game, namely the removal of the grandstanding, "look at me" attitude so prevalent in the NFL.

It's been tried now and then. In the times when the USFL was making a nuissance of itself (let's face it, they fought the good fight, but could never become the old AFL), there were penalties for excessive celebration, marked as unsportsmanlike conduct. The idea keeps coming abck, which should tell you it ain't ever gonna work.

Besides, what would Chad 85 do? The man's a born showman, and he can be quite hilarious from time to time.

As to the rest, while it's true that money's a powerful incentive, a habitual dirty player ultimatelly will cost his team too much in penalties at bad times. No one cares if smeone like, say, James Harrison, plays dirty. They care plenty if he's called for a facemask on third and long, or pass interference on fourth and long.

And many talented but troublesome players, not necessarily dirty ones, have been booted off several teams. Terrell owens and Pacman Jones spring to mind. The Steelers nearly traded Roethlisberger after his last set of legal troubles (and it would have served the jerk right)

That makes a lot of sense. When I played at the lowest possible level of UK American football (full contact, not flag), I didn't play on the line except for the rarest of plays (they needed a fast end on punts and field goals, which oddly was rarely taken at my level (*)), so it's subtly that I'm not used to. But when it comes to pass interference, illegal contact downfield and offside, I see those much easier. I played as SS or CB most of the time (badly).

It's the same with baseball. The rules and play of the game made much more sense once I started playing softball (again I'm no expert, but I get the ideas much better when someone explains them to me now).

(*) Odd, as you'd suppose, especially in a league with a lot rugby players (including the future South African league captain) kicking would not have been a part of the game we struggled with. Punts and field goal attempts were rarely made, instead, playing 4 downs was pretty common.

Quote: thecesspit

It's the same with baseball. The rules and play of the game made much more sense once I started playing softball (again I'm no expert, but I get the ideas much better when someone explains them to me now).

Did they make the game make sense?

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(*) Odd, as you'd suppose, especially in a league with a lot rugby players (including the future South African league captain) kicking would not have been a part of the game we struggled with. Punts and field goal attempts were rarely made, instead, playing 4 downs was pretty common.

I think we've discussed suh things before. I recall a link t a highschool team that very rarely tries for a field goal and practically never punts. IMO part of the reason is that kicking a football is not easy, at least not if you want it to go some place in particular, like way down the field close to the sideline, or through the goal posts. I could easily punt rather far, but the ball was as liable to fly off the field halfway through as it was to land in the middle of it

No doubt that kicking the Gridiron ball is harder than a rugby ball (size and shape means the sweet spot is smaller) but kicking is a MUCH bigger part of the game in Rugby. Kicking is not a completely specialist position, even if most place kicking is done by one player (see: Johnnie Wilkinson). The drop kick, up and under and booting into touch is done by most of the backs.

There's certainly been a history of some Brits going to the US and playing kicking roles (no, I don't mean the Welshman in The Replacements...) (see Mick Luckhurst, for example, beloved face of the coverage of the NFL when I was growing up).

As for baseball/softball. I still not fussed about watching baseball, but playing is good fun, social and enjoyable way to spend a summer evening.