Is Freedom Doomed?

I ask because I've lost interest in the subjects of these political posts. I like Obama, I guess, as a person anyway. I don't follow the details of what he does, but by looking around I'd have to default and say he sucks as POTUS and I don't want him back. I think Palin is a clown. It doesn't matter why and I don't even think I could tell you, I just do. And if she got elected, I don't think I'd much care. It seems like I should. I mean, we're in trouble. We need someone to get us out. That's important, right?

I guess I've lost sight on how one person can do that. I surely don't see it in any of the people offered so far, and I can't even picture anyone in human history being able to put us back where we were. I think the system broke.

Most of my issues are probably state-level, but I see little difference in the two except for size. HuffPo rated NY as "the least free state" saying "New York isn't North Korea, but it's the closest thing you'll find in the U.S.". It turns my stomach. Our taxes are the highest in the nation. Our rez gas is more than the national average. A pack of premium smokes costs $9. A carton in the city runs about $100. We narrowly escaped two dumdingers of legislation. One was a mandatory registration of long guns. You know, shotguns, .22 caliber rifles and the like. $10 each renewed every year. The other, and get this, was a mandatory registration and inspection of BICYCLES. Just as you have to do to your vehicle, so would little Tommy have to do for his Huffy. If I want to excersize and get ready for hockey by going out for a skate, I get hassled or fined because there's "no skating in village limits". I have to go on unlit back roads. If I choose to walk instead after working my afternoon shift, I again get hassled. Who am I, where do I live, what am I doing. I'm a 30 year old man trying to walk in a village I've lived in for 28 of those years, and have to suffer a police interogation to do so. You know those stupid license plate borders that dealerships put on your car to advertise themselves? We get tickets for those. There's a 600 acre tract of state owned land that I pay for, but can't use. There another multi-acre state owned old growth nature trail that I pay for, but can only walk into in a certain 15 acre area. For generations my and my communities families have used this, but now you walk over some invisible and unmarked line and here's your trespassing ticket. The 100 acre lake? Forget a canoe or even so much as a cane pole, go near it and get arrested. And of course there are the old stand by's I don't gripe about anymore, like automatic weapons, seat belts and helmet laws. But the newest one currently being reviewed is making it illegal to smoke in your own car. Not smoke crack, or smoke a rack of lamb or smoke with a child inside, but smoke a cig in your own car by yourself. Might soon be illegal.

I don't know what it is. Maybe after 9/11, when our freedoms had to be infringed for safety, maybe that opened a door. Maybe after seeing we'd put up with it, it gave license to continue. Maybe that's not it at all. But I do see freedoms, not "freedom", per se, but freedoms slipping away. I'm almost totally converted from "maybe it's happening" to "it's absolutely hapening", and I don't see an end in sight. And right about now I've stopped worrying "am I gonna be able to smoke in my car?" and started worrying "what are they gonna take next?".

How does one save freedom?

Excellent post. Not sure where you live Face but the same is happening in a major Canadian city and the populous just goes along. Small self interest groups have pushed their agenda to politicians who cannot see the big picture. Remember that old song "You don't know what you've got til you've lost it" Canadians, as a whole , usually don't understand the word "freedom" as it applies to them. They think they understand it when talking about the current middle east situation but cannot see it as it applies to their immediate surroundings. Loss of personal freedom starts so insidiously with a small issue and blossoms into other areas of our lives and all we do is shake our heads and go with the flow until one day "Big Brother" is really in charge. Who will come to our "aid" when we rebel?

I live on Long Island and I seem to have escaped all of these freedom infringing problems. I walk around my neighborhood and have never been fined, ticketed or even questioned. When I wanted to get a variance on a zoning ordinance so that I could build a two car garage for my Studebakers, the town was helpful though the whole process. I'm guessing but you're lake is probably a part of the New York City reservoir system which is well guarded from terrorist attacks. All it takes is a bucket of radioactive crap poured into Scoharie to pretty much make New York City uninhabitable. I feel really good about New York. There's a reason that a house here costs three times as much as a comapable house on Las Vegas. Supply and Demand.

Not sure where in NY you are but I live on the CT boarder and use NYS parks daily. It sounds like this may be your village/town. The best thing you can do is attend town meetings where these rules get enacted.

Quote: Face

How does one save freedom?

A total change in attitude is needed. First lets look at congress and various federal agencies. The press seems to rate (and the public believes) a "productive" congress or agency based on how much "new" regulation or laws are made. The press was goo-goo for our previous congress who wrote and passed more pages of law in many years. I guess when you don't bother to read the laws they pass faster? Some food contamination happened a few years back and an article I was reading was blaming the Bush Administration "for having too few new regulations issued." It is as if we do not have enough regulations already.

Then this comes down to local ordinances. The city council wants to "pretend" to be their own little congress so they issue more laws. Laws on what kind of restroom the restaurants need to have, laws on grass-legnth, laws on every last problem they can imagine. They want to point and say, "I did that!"

Now up to POTUS. When was the last time a State of the Union was a speech on SOTU and not a list of new laws the POTUS wanted? I'd like the POTUS to get up and say what the state of the country is and then *shudder* call for reducing government. Merging the EPA and Dept of Interior would be a good start. Oh, and call to reduce redundant employees with that. Then have s/he say, "my directive to congress is A YEAR WITH NOT ONLY NO NEW LAWS AT ALL BUT TO REMOVE OLD ONES WE NO LONGER NEED!"

Imagine a year with no new laws! People would scream, but how bad would it be, really?

That's why I think minority and coalition governments in Canada are a good thing... less laws passed :)

Quote: s2dbaker

I live on Long Island and I seem to have escaped all of these freedom infringing problems. I walk around my neighborhood and have never been fined, ticketed or even questioned. When I wanted to get a variance on a zoning ordinance so that I could build a two car garage for my Studebakers, the town was helpful though the whole process. I'm guessing but you're lake is probably a part of the New York City reservoir system

No, I live in WNY. A very small, very rural area. And yes, this lake is indeed a source of drinking water, but so are other that are open for use. Usually is just a "no gas motor" restriction, which is fine. But this one is totally restricted and patrolled regularly. If someone's going to be around making sure you don't use it, why not have the same person be around but instead making sure you don't abuse it? 99.9% of us have to suffer because of that one .01% that might do something. And in reality, if that .01% wanted to do it, it can't be stopped. It just bothers me because it kind of follows this pattern I've seen where people are restricted from things due to fear, and now it's stretching into restriction for money and/or control.

Quote: keypunch

Loss of personal freedom starts so insidiously with a small issue and blossoms into other areas of our lives and all we do is shake our heads and go with the flow until one day "Big Brother" is really in charge.

Quote: AZDuffman

A total change in attitude is needed. First lets look at congress and various federal agencies. The press seems to rate (and the public believes) a "productive" congress or agency based on how much "new" regulation or laws are made....It is as if we do not have enough regulations already.

Then this comes down to local ordinances. The city council wants to "pretend" to be their own little congress so they issue more laws. Laws on what kind of restroom the restaurants need to have, laws on grass-legnth, laws on every last problem they can imagine. They want to point and say, "I did that!"

I'd like the POTUS to get up and say what the state of the country is and then *shudder* call for reducing government. Merging the EPA and Dept of Interior would be a good start. Oh, and call to reduce redundant employees with that. Then have s/he say, "my directive to congress is A YEAR WITH NOT ONLY NO NEW LAWS AT ALL BUT TO REMOVE OLD ONES WE NO LONGER NEED!"

My feelings exactly, keypunch. I feel like I'm watching it happen.

I also agree with you, AZ, but really...how do we make it stop? The two things everyone says to me when I gripe like this is A) make a presence at the town board meetings (which someone else said here) and B) get out and vote. But when I look at the situations...my skating issue for example. That's a big deal to me, not only for my enjoyment, but my sons, my friends, hell, just getting kids out of the house and having something to do other than Xbox. I think it's important. But this wasn't some community vote. One business owner made a complaint because 2 guys got buzzed and bladed through the business section making a ruckus. The board tabled it, the aye's had it, and that day skating became "illegal". It was over before I even knew there was an issue. It was the second of now three things I have lost and they're gone without notice, I just go to do it one day and get a ticket. I can't be at every board meeting.

I guess that's why we have elections, so we can choose people to represent us in these cases, but again, I have major issue with this. Even assuming a politician is Johnny Honest and nary tells a lie, how can you know someones heart? We have these people running, and the whole time they try to tell us who they are and what they stand for. And we make a choice (too often it feels like the lesser of two evils) based on big things. If you're gay, you'll probably lean towards one pushing equality. If you're tired of the war, you'll lean toward one who'll end it. If you're big business, you'll lean towards the one who'll give you the most breaks. But what about all the rest? The little things that might actually impact you directly, there's not really any way to know. And once you come back to Realityland and toss in the fact that these people do, in fact, tell fibs, and there goes the ballgame. I nearly cried when Obama got elected, I for the first time felt that someone I agreed with and who would do good by me was in office and I was hopeful. Inspired. And then...here we are and I am of course as jaded as ever. It's just more of the same and that somehow makes it even worse.

It's scary. They are good at making laws, which is starting to boggle my mind. I used to just say "F* you" and did what I wanted because these laws are wrong, but I'm too old for that stuff now. How do you unmake a law? I don't recall the process. I know I'll hear every now and then on some radio show about some antiquated law that's still on the books in some state, how it's illegal to keep your horse in your house if you share a bedroom with a wife. And people giggle. I don't think it's funny anymore because it's showing me that laws don't go away. How can one man make it stop? I don't think one man has a prayer, and as I see more and more (local) laws being passed at the drop of a hat, I have real concern for the future. I'm reminded of this quote - "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victim's may be the most oppresive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busibodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis. Has this brand of tyranny started?

Makes me glad I like in Missouri, where I only have to worry about the southern Baptists trying to take away strip clubs & porn!

Quote: Face

I also agree with you, AZ, but really...how do we make it stop? The two things everyone says to me when I gripe like this is A) make a presence at the town board meetings (which someone else said here) and B) get out and vote. But when I look at the situations...my skating issue for example. That's a big deal to me, not only for my enjoyment, but my sons, my friends, hell, just getting kids out of the house and having something to do other than Xbox. I think it's important. But this wasn't some community vote. One business owner made a complaint because 2 guys got buzzed and bladed through the business section making a ruckus. The board tabled it, the aye's had it, and that day skating became "illegal". It was over before I even knew there was an issue. It was the second of now three things I have lost and they're gone without notice, I just go to do it one day and get a ticket. I can't be at every board meeting.

In the case of the board meetings some places have notice periods to avoid this. But again, the mentality needs to be changed. Think on these terms.

If you remember "I'm Just a Bill" (youtube it if you were born after 1980) the premise was that someone said, "THERE OUGHT TO BE A LAW!" Then the person feels a hero because they made a law and "did something." Civics class teaches the same thing. Most times a law is not needed. But face it, people who run for office want to be seen "doing something" and that means making laws.

Lets use the skating example. There are surely disorder laws the cops could enforce. And a good cop would tell the skaters to "move on, you are bothering people" and 99% of the time the skaters would. Common sense has died in the USA.

Maybe I could make a Facebook Page for the no laws for a year idea. Would anyone here "like" it and pass it on?

I think 'no new laws' and 'retiring old laws' have been planks on various Libertarian platforms for years. So too has some weird statement that the politician must acknowledge having read and understood the bill he voted for. Needless to say this nonsense doesn't get too far.

I believe there is a reservoir in NYC's Central Park since it was featured in a film in which Dustin Hoffman threw a pistol with which his father had committed suicide. Have there been any excessive security measures there? I would imagine most passersby are interested in exercise or in viewing the attractive young ladies who are jogging by, but I'm sure that somewhere there is an authoritarian type who wants a machine-gun toting guard and signs and barbed wire. All for the public good of course!

Quote: FleaStiff

I think 'no new laws' and 'retiring old laws' have been planks on various Libertarian platforms for years. So too has some weird statement that the politician must acknowledge having read and understood the bill he voted for. Needless to say this nonsense doesn't get too far.

Understand the bill they vote for? The horror. I can see not reading line by line, but there surely should be an understanding of shat they are voting for. When they do not we get statements like, "we need to pass it so we can see what is in the bill."

Personally, I don't think it is "nonsense." Think about it, what bad would happen if not one new law or regulation was written in 2013? Life would go on. Might go on better. And after those in a lawmaking capacity might realize they like not writing law after law better.

Quote: AZDuffman

If you remember "I'm Just a Bill" (youtube it if you were born after 1980) the premise was that someone said, "THERE OUGHT TO BE A LAW!" Then the person feels a hero because they made a law and "did something." Civics class teaches the same thing. Most times a law is not needed. But face it, people who run for office want to be seen "doing something" and that means making laws.

Lets use the skating example. There are surely disorder laws the cops could enforce. And a good cop would tell the skaters to "move on, you are bothering people" and 99% of the time the skaters would. Common sense has died in the USA.

Maybe I could make a Facebook Page for the no laws for a year idea. Would anyone here "like" it and pass it on?

Quote: AZDuffman

Think about it, what bad would happen if not one new law or regulation was written in 2013? Life would go on. Might go on better. And after those in a lawmaking capacity might realize they like not writing law after law better.

Not only do I agree with most of your post, you keyed on my two biggest issues with this.

First, it's like you said, it seems these laws are made more for the lawmakers to say "See?! I did something!" as opposed to doing it for a legit public service need. It reminds me of the movie "Office Space" and their TPS reports. They're not needed, but they're done over and over again because it's become a measure of success, when the true measure of success should be improvement to quality of life.

Secondly, it's the haphazard way laws are implemented. Like you stated with my skating example, was a law needed? Probably not. Maybe a notice posted or a verbal correction could have corrected the issue. But, if a law was indeed needed, why make it the most restrictive law possible? In my sleepy town, the business section closes by 5p on most days, maybe 8p on Fridays and during festivals. Why then doesn't the law state "no skating during business hours"? Isn't that the best compromise to both protect the interests of the business while at the same time preserving the freedom for kids to have fun and be active? It's this latter issue that has me nearly bursting with anger and sorrow. I've lost some things that I really, really appreciated and really, really enjoyed, and every one of them have been because of either a very small group of people (2 people each, in two of the cases) or one negative incident. It's a knee-jerk reaction that does more harm than good, and I see it gaining momentum as the answer to most problems lately.

I very rarely "Like" something, but if I seen such a page I'd "Like" the hell out of it.

I am happiest when our 3 bodies (house, senate, president) that need to get together to make something happen are of 2 different parties. That makes it difficult for new laws to be passed. When all 3 are 1 party, we get Obamacare and a budget that spends 1 trillion more than we take in. I live in a different suburb than Face, and can't tell you of a time in my 21 years here that I felt my 'freedom' was unreasonably impinged upon. Move to Amherst, Face.

Quote: Face

First, it's like you said, it seems these laws are made more for the lawmakers to say "See?! I did something!" as opposed to doing it for a legit public service need. It reminds me of the movie "Office Space" and their TPS reports. They're not needed, but they're done over and over again because it's become a measure of success, when the true measure of success should be improvement to quality of life.

I lived Office Space (except dating Ms Aniston, *sigh*) and it extends beyond TPS reports. Once there was an email about something sent by the manager to the entire floor. No kidding, within a minute four of five supervisors re-sent the same emai to the entire floor (not just thir own teams) using the exact same emai list. The fifth supervisor later said, "why would I forward an email sent to the entire foor to the same people who just received it?" Sadly he was the first among them to leave the company.

Another time they were going to have meetings between processing and underwriting to see about getting unreasonable conditions waived at a supervisory level (good idea!) Then they wanted at least 2-3 "requests" from each processor once to twice a week (BAD IDEA!) So the pressure was on to "generate paper." I got corrected for sending bad requests but I didn't have 3. Later I sent one but was told, "the meetings are over, why didn't you send requests before?" Well, the answer to that is the situations do not come up like clockwork.

In New York there is atually a law that states the state cannot pass "unenforcable" laws. I doubt the legislature cares much because they do it all the time.

Another good "law about laws" is a "sunset law." As part of my " no laws for a year" idea I would state the first law passed at all levels would be a "sunset law" stating all new laws must be renewed every 7-10 years or so. This way the "good idea at the time" laws would dissapear. Or in say the case of the Americans with Disabilities Act Congress would have to look at what was and was not working and fix the later. (eg: the women who sued an airline because of eyesght standards for pilots.)

Quote: SOOPOO

I live in a different suburb than Face, and can't tell you of a time in my 21 years here that I felt my 'freedom' was unreasonably impinged upon. Move to Amherst, Face.

You're lucky. But perhaps the reason you haven't been affected is not because it's not happening, but because it hasn't yet reached your side of habits and interests. It's kind of a moot point because they were both defeated, but both the long gun registration and that whole bicycle registration and inspection deal were State laws, not local. I don't believe your a smoker so this probably also doesn't affect you, but the current possibility of not being able to smoke in your own car has me quite pissed off. And I'm not a rabid, pro-smokers rights guy, I don't even smoke at a pro-smoke casino, I go outside. But who the hell is anybody to tell me what I can /can't do in my own vehicle? That right is reserved by my wife =p. Smoking has also been prohibited at Ralph Wilson entirely, there's no more section there past the concessions, it's totally gone. And tailgaiting is now illegal before 9a.

Thanks for the invite up north, but I'm too country for Amherst. It's a nice place and I would definately enjoy the proximity to the Pepsi Center, but it's too busy for me. In all fairness I'm relatively happy where I am. I don't mean to give the impression my town is totally authoritarian, but just that lately it has elements of it and it bothers me. I see it increasing, and that worries me. And quite recently, I lost priviledges that were VERY dear to me due to these knee-jerk reactions I spoke of earlier, and that just has me at a loss. I see things that make me who I am being taken away, with no hope that I'll get them back, and with signs that it's going to continue....it leads to my title of the thread. There's ways to improve the situation, I think AZ's "sunset" rule is terrific. Not only would it let useless laws die, but having to table all these laws every X years might make them think twice before piling them on. I, too, had a bunch of good ideas for my local situation, but how to implement them? How do you change a mind set, how do you sabotage an out of control law making machine?

As far as smoking bans, most of them have INCREASED my freedoms, they allow me to go places without the worry about how to avoid the nuissance. Is someone really trying to outlaw smoking in ALL cars, or is that only if a child is in the car? If it is all cars that is RIDICULOUS. As far as the tailgating, the Bills are a private business entity, and they can decide what behavior is appropriate in their private parking lots. We park in a lot not owned by the Bills and are not subject to any of the restrictions that the Bills might place.
If you think about it, any LAW is a curtailment of your freedoms. We just hope our elected officials properly weigh societal good when choosing to curtail those freedoms.
As an example, what would you have thought about Vancouver police arresting ANYONE carrying a gasoline container and wearing masks and camouflage BEFORE they committed a crime? I don't think most Vancouverans would have minded the 'curtailed freedom' for those individuals.

Quote: SOOPOO

As an example, what would you have thought about Vancouver police arresting ANYONE carrying a gasoline container and wearing masks and camouflage BEFORE they committed a crime? I don't think most Vancouverans would have minded the 'curtailed freedom' for those individuals.

This is the kind of disconnect people who are against libertarianism/Tea Party Movement try to exploit as "see, your idea will not work!" A Tea Partier would say if a cop should be allowed to both profile and use common sense about this situation. A liberal would say the cops are hassling people based on "how they look."

Here is an exmple of how good police work with the laws you have works and shows you do not need more laws. I heard this actually happened. It was a "college town" story so it might not have, but based on how I heard it and all persons involved I think it did. Either way, it is a good example. So........

The town has a "party school" reputation. Big time. Fraternity "speakeasys" are all over the place and the town wants a lid put on it. But they would rather the keggers just not happen in the open instead of write people up. From time to time, the Liquior Control Board (LCB), which is an arm of the State Police, is called into town. This is one of those weeks. Two guys take a pickup truck and order 10 kegs of beer.

LCB: "Hi there, you boys have ID?" (he already knows this as you have to sign for even one keg)
Buyer: "Sure, here it is"
LCB: "That's a lot of beer, why are you buying so much?"
Buyer: "Because we are thirsty." (this line made up, but who knows from where I got it)
LCB: "Well, there is nothing wrong with you boys buying 10 kegs. But I have to let you know there is no law against me following you. And see, I am going to follow you. Now, if you were thinking of having a party or something, well the laws against providing beer to people under 21 are fairly stiff. And if you charge them, well, there are "speakeasy" laws in PA. Stay with me here, boys. Now, if I see the beer go into a place and not come out, then if I see lots of underage people go in, that is what is called "probable cause." I can have a warrant in minutes, or maybe we can just enter on a noise complaint. If we find underage people drinking, there is a problem. If they even all just throw their cups away we will breathalizer them. Trust me, you will not get out of this on a technicality. And you just signed your name to those kegs. You boys still want all that beer?

The exact conversation is fabricated, but they were told they would be followed and watched. Point of the story is instead of some person saying, "too much underage drinking, there ought to be a law about how many kegs you can buy!" a smart cop used the laws we have along with some common sense and some politeness to stop the situation. As a result, people who did need several kegs did not have to break the law.

Quote: AZDuffman

A liberal would say the cops are hassling people based on "how they look."

I'm always amazed to find out how I think from AZDuffman. I must really be a horrible person!

Quote: s2dbaker

I'm always amazed to find out how I think from AZDuffman. I must really be a horrible person!

Whatever that is supposed to mean--sorry you feel you are a horrible person.

Quote: s2dbaker

I'm always amazed to find out how I think from AZDuffman. I must really be a horrible person!

I prefer it when he gives examples of the black man's experience in America and how they had much more freedom they experienced decades ago. If I could read minds like him I would never leave the poker table.

Quote: Wavy70

I prefer it when he gives examples of the black man's experience in America and how they had much more freedom they experienced decades ago. If I could read minds like him I would never leave the poker table.

I must be a terrible burden to always be right. I shall pray for him.

Quote: s2dbaker

I must be a terrible burden to always be right. I shall pray for him.

The Lord only gives us the burden we can handle.

Quote: Wavy70

"examples of the black man's experience in America and how they had much more freedom they experienced decades ago.

Read that a few times and I still don't get what you are trying to say. Maybe you should just go back to the table.

Quote: SOOPOO

As far as smoking bans, most of them have INCREASED my freedoms, they allow me to go places without the worry about how to avoid the nuissance. Is someone really trying to outlaw smoking in ALL cars, or is that only if a child is in the car? If it is all cars that is RIDICULOUS. As far as the tailgating, the Bills are a private business entity, and they can decide what behavior is appropriate in their private parking lots. We park in a lot not owned by the Bills and are not subject to any of the restrictions that the Bills might place.
If you think about it, any LAW is a curtailment of your freedoms. We just hope our elected officials properly weigh societal good when choosing to curtail those freedoms.
As an example, what would you have thought about Vancouver police arresting ANYONE carrying a gasoline container and wearing masks and camouflage BEFORE they committed a crime? I don't think most Vancouverans would have minded the 'curtailed freedom' for those individuals.

I hated to use the smoking issue, because I mostly agree with them, be it inside a restaurant, school grounds, play grounds, etc. But yes, as far as I know the car issue was just that. No smoking in cars, regardless if you were the sole passenger or not. No smoking with children inside I'd support and I already practice myself, but telling me I can't when alone or in transit to fish or golf with friends is unacceptable, IMO.
I'm not promoting anarchy. I understand laws are needed for public safety. It's your comment "We just hope our elected officials properly weigh societal good when choosing to curtail those freedoms." I feel a disconnect from this. In my opinion, societal good has taken a back seat to either busy-work (making laws to say they done something) or a money grab (the purpose of registering and inspecting bycycles is what?). Or, to be specific, that there's been an INCREASE in this. I don't want to imply that every one of them is foolish (No texting while driving is good, for example)
I think, like AZ said, common sense should prevail. In both his drinking example and your Vancouver example, common sense and the laws already in place should be sufficient. Just as the cop may assume of a kegger due to the massive amounts of beer, the cop could likewise assume a masked, camo'd guy walking the streets of a city at night during a riot with a can of gas isn't looking to mow lawns. I'd have no problem with a cop questioning him, or questioning me if I was that person, to figure out what the hell he was doing. If in the following days the town decided to outlaw all types of flammable liquids even if carried in their approved containers, all because of one isolated incident or group of people, then yeah, I'd have a major problem with it. That's my issue. 2 guys cause a ruckus on one day, skating is abolished for life. Nature area open for eternity, a couple people fall off a cliff and it's closed forever. I had a place I could shoot and ride four wheelers that's been open to the public since before I was born, 2 guys steal some scrap metal and now it's a $200 fine anytime your caught there. It just sucks.

In all of the issues, there's definately a problem that needs to be addressed. I don't dispute that. But the total abolishment of the activity is like cutting off your hand because of a hangnail. It solves the problem, but causes way more damage than was originally there. Sure, by making it illegal to enter the old four wheeling area, you feel you're preventing your scrap from being stolen. But in reality, this area is outside of town which is absolutely NOT part of the regular police patrol. Now, the police have to go way out of town, and can only do so maybe twice a day or every other day. Previous to the law, the area was full of workers from 8a - 5p, and full of wheelers from 5p to dark. It was self policing. The underage drinkers, the kids smoking pot, the punks there damaging equipment, all of them beat feet when we'd show up. A convoy of cars would come in, see us there, and turn right around and leave. The parties that went on at night and left piles of cans, smashed bottles and charred bedsprings from mattress fires were cleaned up by US. We did it to save our wheelers from damage, which likewise saved town and private equipment from that same damage. Wouldn't the best solution be to encourage the wheeler presence, establish communication between the parties, and work together in keeping the area safe, using the police during the night when no one's there? That way the area would be secured for 12 hours a day, the wheelers still have their paradise, the police force can focus energies elsewhere, and everyone's happy. Instead the area's secure for 8 hours, the police have an additional pain in the ass, the area's basically wide open now since as I said, the cops can't get up there often, and us wheelers are miserable. Add in the fact that the majority of the wheelers age from 9 - 19 and there's a huge drug problem in our area, and it's just another of the many productive, clean and character building things taken from these kids. Instead of my type of thinking, instead of really identifying the problem and the best solution available, they just illegalized it. No thought, no brainstorm, I literally heard of people getting busted for riding before the news of the theft hit that weeks newspaper. Knee-jerk. I can't take it anymore.

Maybe if you moved to a rural area? There are likely fewer laws. There's just something about congestion that leads to more rule making.

And if it's a poor rural area, there's not only likely fewer laws, but the lack of funding probably would keep down the enforcement of what laws there are.

Quote: rxwine

Maybe if you moved to a rural area? There are likely fewer laws. There's just something about congestion that leads to more rule making.

And if it's a poor rural area, there's not only likely fewer laws, but the lack of funding probably would keep down the enforcement of what laws there are.

That's the hilariously sad part. My village has a population of about 5,000. The senior classes "Drive your tractor to school" day is front page news here. I chose to live here (or I should say "stay here" since I was born and raised) for just these reasons. It's somewhere where buzzing down the side of the road on your wheeler to get to a riding area might get overlooked. Carrying a shotgun down the street wouldn't gather a ton of attention (yet skating does, go figure). I always found country living to be more free than city life, and all of the sudden I'm seeing these things being taken away at the drop of at hat. I'm not diggin' it.