Opinions On Koran Burning
Here's how I see it. The guy expected and got threats. He says he's willing to die for showing the world that the Koran is a twisted piece of religious literature that is one of the root causes of Islamic radicalism in the world today. I think the act was stupid, but I admire him for standing up for what he believes in.
Now onto Afghanistan. If those fools want to destroy their cities and kill one another over this, I say have at it. Only morons would bother rioting over something like that instead of protesting it in the media.
So what would happen if some Islamic extremists chose to burn a bible in public, even if it were here in the US? Nothing. In fact, Katie Couric and Brian Williams wouldn't even report on it, and we'd have to hear about it from The Factor. Yet there's Katie & Brian, raging about the Koran burning as often as possible. And would anyone riot here in this or any other civilized country just because some idiot burned a book holy to the masses? That's a joke. Intelligent people understand free speech, and they don't go around destroying people and property because they're outraged over something.
I think that pastor had the right idea but went about it in the wrong way.
Quote: JL2I think the act was stupid, but I admire him for standing up for what he believes in. ... Intelligent people understand free speech, and they don't go around destroying people and property because they're outraged over something. ... think that pastor had the right idea but went about it in the wrong way.
I cannot admire someone who promotes himself and lets innocent people suffer the consequence of his action.
*Jones and his folks were too hungry for a publicity stunt
*Karzai helped spread word of this and thus inflame Afghans
*Afghan religious leaders and other radicals were looking for something to exploit
I think we have to accept that what sounds like something minor to Western ears is intolerable to people in places like Afghanistan, and that we really can't fully understand that. I guess there's no accounting for such disproportional reaction to us, nonetheless there it is. But to incite people to go kill innocents is intolerable completely, no matter where you are from, no matter what religion. The people killed were not even Americans.
edited
Quote: pacomartin
I cannot admire someone who promotes himself and lets innocent people suffer the consequence of his action.
You mean like President Obama has done?
C'mon we all enjoy free speech. Look at those Westboro nuts. People will always suffer when extreme views are voiced, but the right to voice them far outweighs the resulting sufferring of a few.
Quote: JL2
C'mon we all enjoy free speech. Look at those Westboro nuts. People will always suffer when extreme views are voiced, but the right to voice them far outweighs the resulting sufferring of a few.
What's your problem with Afganis then? They are just voicing their extreme views ...
While we are civilized today, Western civilization spent hundreds of years doing the same when actions against Jesus/God/the Bible occurred. I'm not sayin' that two wrongs make a right. That said however, while what we do in the united states may incite hatred around the world because it is immensely offensive to another culture, we are not responsible for the actions of others.
After all, both items (the Qaran and the Bible) are just books. How one reacts to it is up to them. I mean, if I decided to shoot the dealer every time he dealt himself a blackjack, I wouldn't get very far in life. But that's my reaction and I own that. Just because some idiots over in Afghanistan decides to overreact because a book was burnt doesn't mean the reaction is appropriate nor should we not do it because the reaction would be inappropriate.
Inappropriate actions and reactions drive the world forward. Example: Rosa Parks sitting on the back of the bus. How wrong was that to so many people at the time? If anything, the burning of the Qaran and the reaction it garnished should remind us of the nutjobs in foreign countries that are still out there and how much hatred there is for America for the acts of one person.
Quote: JL2So what would happen if some Islamic extremists chose to burn a bible in public, even if it were here in the US? Nothing. In fact, Katie Couric and Brian Williams wouldn't even report on it, and we'd have to hear about it from The Factor. Yet there's Katie & Brian, raging about the Koran burning as often as possible. And would anyone riot here in this or any other civilized country just because some idiot burned a book holy to the masses? That's a joke. Intelligent people understand free speech, and they don't go around destroying people and property because they're outraged over something.
If? They have been burning bibles, US Flags, and effigies of US POTUSs from at least Carter to Obama. Would the US Media have stirred up all the fuss over the worry of "offending" everyday Germans if "Mein Kamph" was burned during WWII? Doubt it. But we are dealing with the same media that made up a story of Koran pages "being flushed down a toilet." Same result then, riots and deaths in the muslim world, but news to report.
Anyone see a pattern here?
Is he going to burn a bible as well?
Imagine I go out right now and burn the Stars and Stripes. Would any of you care?
What if I was Muslim? Would you care then?
What if I made a nationally televised claim that I, a Muslim, was going to do this. Care yet?
And I was doing it 9/12/01. How about now?
My point is, the act itself was very much 'who cares'. The way he went about it, though, deserves a punch in the head.
Quote: FaceWhile I think people should be free to act as they want, I also feel people should have social responsibility and be held accountable. I don't have a problem with demonstrations or burnings. Quran, Bible, American flag...people should have freedom of expression. But doing so in such a public and hateful way at a time of high tensions was a terrible error. The act of burning a Quran? Who cares. But done in that manner and at that time was despicable.
Imagine I go out right now and burn the Stars and Stripes. Would any of you care?
What if I was Muslim? Would you care then?
What if I made a nationally televised claim that I, a Muslim, was going to do this. Care yet?
And I was doing it 9/12/01. How about now?
My point is, the act itself was very much 'who cares'. The way he went about it, though, deserves a punch in the head.
Would I "care?" Yes, I would be very upset. Would I riot and kill? No. That is where the difference is.
I think the act was stupid, but I admire him for standing up for what he believes in. ... Intelligent people understand free speech, and they don't go around destroying people and property because they're outraged over something. ... think that pastor had the right idea but went about it in the wrong way.
Can I assume you admire suicide bombers too ??
I'm pretty much an absolutist when it comes to free speech. If you want to express an opinion (no matter how unpopular or stupid), or burn a symbol (such as a religious text or flag), I can do nothing but support your right to do so.
Quote: buzzpaffQuote: JL2
I think the act was stupid, but I admire him for standing up for what he believes in. ... Intelligent people understand free speech, and they don't go around destroying people and property because they're outraged over something. ... think that pastor had the right idea but went about it in the wrong way.
Can I assume you admire suicide bombers too ??
I think his answer is in your reply, "Intelligent people understand free speech, and they don't go around destroying people and property because they're outraged over something."
Why would you equate burning a Koran to a suicide homicide bomber?
I think "Freedom of Speech" has limits (and has been appropriately limited in some cases e.g. Child Porn), but our courts tend to draw the line way to the left of what most consider "decent". For example, I think that the group that protests at funerals for servicemen is way outside of what most would consider acceptable behavior.
Of course we might also ask those Somali pirates who hijacked S/V Quest and shot two unarmed couples when Bibles were discovered on board.
How about dying for what you believe in ? Why would I admire either asshole ?
In no way can it be equated to being a homicide bomber, perhaps somewhere more along the lines of a repeat jaywalk bomber (counting emissions from needless braking and acceleration), or perhaps a toilet triple-flushing bomber.
Per kWh, wood actually still produces lower emissions than oil. In places like Alaska, this could be a great environmentally friendly idea for heating. The only issue is procuring a source of cheap Korans; while invading another Arab country or two is always an option, the savings have to be weighed against the emissions resulting from the invasion itself. Clearly the mistakes of the Gulf War with its enormous oil fires are much more costly than any benefit and should not be repeated.
Quote: FaceImagine I go out right now and burn the Stars and Stripes. Would any of you care?
What if I was Muslim? Would you care then?
What if I made a nationally televised claim that I, a Muslim, was going to do this. Care yet?
And I was doing it 9/12/01. How about now?
I might get mad enough to do something disproportionate, maybe start a bonfire of holy books, or try to confront that Muslim . But I would not start harming innocent people.
edit: sorry Mr. Duffman, I ripped off your reply without knowing
Quote: WizardI hope not one taxpayer dime goes to police protection of that repugnant piece of &#%*. If he wants to be a martyr, fine, go to Afghanistan and walk the streets. Better he face the consequences of his actions than the innocent people currently being killed for what he did.
I respectfully disagree. Choosing what can and cannot be said, by way of providing/not providing protection based upon the speaker's viewpoint, is worse action than whatever this guy says or does by burning a book.
Quote: odiousgambitI might get mad enough to do something disproportionate, maybe start a bonfire of holy books, or try to confront that Muslim . But I would not start harming innocent people.
Indeed, you may not, and AZ may not, but is it not too far of a stretch to imagine that SOMEONE might? I think there are people who would.
I'm not saying the Afghan issue is OUR fault, or that we should never do what we feel out of fear of how someone will react. But in this case, doing something for NO OTHER REASON than to harm and incite and knowing full well what the result would be, is idiotic IMO.
Quote: FaceBut in this case, doing something for NO OTHER REASON than to harm and incite and knowing full well what the result would be, is idiotic IMO.
It may be pointless, but no more so than posting on internet forums. If one gets a kick out of it, why not? If burning a Qur'an had an entertainment value for me comparable with the cost of obtaining one, or if I found a crate of Qur'ans that I couldn't sell for much, I'd make a bonfire with them too.
Quote: P90It may be pointless, but no more so than posting on internet forums. If one gets a kick out of it, why not? If burning a Qur'an had an entertainment value for me comparable with the cost of obtaining one, or if I found a crate of Qur'ans that I couldn't sell for much, I'd make a bonfire with them too.
As would I as I would have no use for them. And I'd enjoy it because I like fires. I don't think he did it for kicks. I think he did it to harm.
If he was 'just having a good time' and somehow offended a group, which took it so far as to start killing people and giving him death threats, that would be horrible and I'd feel for him. He did it soley to harm. It worked. And he deserves all the negativity that happens to find its way to him.
Well, I would like to, but I don’t know that I can.
(Just throwing that out there.)
Quote: AZDuffmanI think his answer is in your reply, "Intelligent people understand free speech, and they don't go around destroying people and property because they're outraged over something."
Why would you equate burning a Koran to a suicide homicide bomber?
The result is the same - innocent people die. So, why not equate it?
Quote: weaselmanQuote: AZDuffmanI think his answer is in your reply, "Intelligent people understand free speech, and they don't go around destroying people and property because they're outraged over something."
Why would you equate burning a Koran to a suicide homicide bomber?
The result is the same - innocent people die. So, why not equate it?
I don't consider people who choose to violently riot over any issue in the streets or get involved in any way when the loonies are out, to be simple innocents. Those nuts in that part of the world are basic barbarians, and they don't respect other's rights or right to life.
A suicide bomber does not get my admiration because he is committing murder. The pastor does get my admiration for sticking to his guns while doing something legal.
There is no bible-burning going on today that anyone cares about. That's because Christians respect other's rights, and they're not involved in 24 of the 26 current violent conflicts going on around the world today trying to convert all others like the Muslims are. Islamic religion is grounded in violence. Christianity is grounded in peace.
Quote: JL2
I don't consider people who choose to violently riot in the streets over anything, to be simple innocents.
You like to believe that only those who were actually rioting got hurt, don't you?
Quote:A suicide bomber does not get my admiration because he is committing murder. The pastor does get my admiration for sticking to his guns while doing something legal.
Legality is a relative term. In Afganistan, it may be legal to stone a woman for showing up outside without her veil. Does that make you admire those, "sticking to their guns", because it is legal?
He did something, knowing full well, people may/will get hurt because of it. That's all there is to know about his action. Legal or not is of no relevance here.
But, speaking of legality, if the riots caused by his actions happened in US jurisdiction, he could have been charged with manslaughter (defined as depraved indifference to human life).
Quote: JL2Look at those Westboro nuts.
As much as I think Phelps and crew are trash, they at least have big balls. This guy has pretty small ones- thousands of miles from the source of the confrontation..
Quote: boymimboInappropriate actions and reactions drive the world forward. Example: Rosa Parks sitting on the back of the bus. How wrong was that to so many people at the time?
I take offense at comparing Rosa Parks to that nut case in Florida. Rosa Parks faced the consequences of her actions, proudly. The Florida pastor is letting others die for his. If he had the courage of Rosa Parks he would go to Afghanistan and burn the Koran there.
Quote: EnvyBonusI respectfully disagree. Choosing what can and cannot be said, by way of providing/not providing protection based upon the speaker's viewpoint, is worse action than whatever this guy says or does by burning a book.
I agree. If he asks for protection then he shouldn't be denied it not matter how much of a jackass he is. Shall we say that I hope he has the courage to not ask.
Quote: JL2Islamic religion is grounded in violence. Christianity is grounded in peace.
Both religions have their history in violence. Christians have done just as much if not more killing in their time.
But science and practice show that diseases always evolve from more lethal strains to less lethal. Smallpox was considered the lesser disease compared to Great Pox, a sickness more horrifying than any movie effects - and one we now know as syphilis. Christianity spilled blood by the truckload during the Middle Ages, most famously in Crusades, later in fights between different strains of christianity; it greatly magnified the plague in Black Death and maintained witch-hunts for centuries - and now it's just moms and dads wasting their Sundays. Islam is a much younger disease, and therefore more violent and lethal; give it a millennium, and it will evolve into a mild form resembling modern Xtianity, a collection of holidays and trinkets.
Quote: weaselmanYou like to believe that only those who were actually rioting got hurt, don't you?
Legality is a relative term. In Afganistan, it may be legal to stone a woman for showing up outside without her veil. Does that make you admire those, "sticking to their guns", because it is legal?
He did something, knowing full well, people may/will get hurt because of it. That's all there is to know about his action. Legal or not is of no relevance here.
But, speaking of legality, if the riots caused by his actions happened in US jurisdiction, he could have been charged with manslaughter (defined as depraved indifference to human life).
A) That's not what I believe and I was clear about it. Anyone who goes to those things is a moron, and if they get hurt or killed then it's through their own fault. They chose to be there, and if they didn't want to then they could have departed the area or hidden.
B) Stoning women is barbaric and is not legal to the world court or in any civilized country. It is the practice of barbarians.
C) The bottom line is that pastor had every right to do the wrong thing. It's the idiot Afghan people who chose to have a few less of them walk the earth because it. They always seem to have excuses for the people they kill.
D) Nothing trumps Supreme Court supported free speech, and he would not have had any legal problem if some kooks decided to kill someone because of what he did.
Quote: P90Both religions have their history in violence.
Agreed! The bible is full of "wipe out" stories, where God commanded Israel to wipe out another group of people, including the women, children, babies, and animals. The old testament is chock full of bloody stories of killing people for minor things like gathering sticks on the Sabbath. How millions, even billions, can follow such a god I cannot comprehend.
Quote: WizardAgreed! The bible is full of "wipe out" stories, where God commanded Israel to wipe out another group of people, including the women, children, babies, and animals. The old testament is chock full of bloody stories of killing people for minor things like gathering sticks on the Sabbath. How millions, even billions, can follow such a god I cannot comprehend.
The thing is the New Testement wiped most if not all of this stuff out. Some part of the Bible (I forget where) has Jesus "giving a pass" to someone for doing "work" on the sabath to cook the meal or something like that. Not the case with the Koran and how they practice its interpertation still today.
Quote: AZDuffmanThe thing is the New Testement wiped most if not all of this stuff out. Some part of the Bible (I forget where) has Jesus "giving a pass" to someone for doing "work" on the sabath to cook the meal or something like that. Not the case with the Koran and how they practice its interpertation still today.
That's really a testament of what a noble path Christianity has taken as it has matured, and how barbarism still reigns supreme in the Muslim world.
Quote: JL2That's really a testament of what a noble path Christianity has taken as it has matured, and how barbarism still reigns supreme in the Muslim world.
/sigh. Just last month I listened to a preacher on a Christian talk show 'call his brothers to war against homosexuality' and declare that AIDS 'is a judgement by God against those who partake in homosexual behavior' and 'is a deserved fate'.
Peace and love indeed. Clearly, imperfections are found in all peoples.
Quote: Face/sigh. Just last month I listened to a preacher on a Christian talk show 'call his brothers to war against homosexuality' and declare that AIDS 'is a judgement by God against those who partake in homosexual behavior' and 'is a deserved fate'.
Peace and love indeed. Clearly, imperfections are found in all peoples.
So one preacher is how you judge the religion? But at the same time we keep getting lectured about how 100,000 rioting muslims are "just the extremists?"
Quote: AZDuffmanSo one preacher is how you judge the religion? But at the same time we keep getting lectured about how 100,000 rioting muslims are "just the extremists?"
Not at all, same as I don't judge all Afghans as 'barbarians' based on the barbaric actions of some. I was just pointing out that in all peoples, all races, all religions, there can be found nastiness. We're all much the same in that regard.
Quote: JL2A) That's not what I believe and I was clear about it. Anyone who goes to those things is a moron, and if they get hurt or killed then it's through their own fault. They chose to be there, and if they didn't want to then they could have departed the area or hidden.
When an angry mob runs down the street and sets your house on fire, good luck "departing the area or hiding".
Quote:B) Stoning women is barbaric and is not legal to the world court or in any civilized country. It is the practice of barbarians.
What is "world court"? Or "civilized country"? If you are talking about some kind of moral code, then taking any action knowing that people may get hurt as a direct result of it is equally "illegal".
Speaking of "civilized countries", I know you like the warm feeling that you are living in one, but let me tel you something. Civilized people do not burn books. They also avoid doing things they know are hurtful to others, even to those they don't like very much.
That's what "civilized" means in my book. So, don't flatter yourself, not everybody, who does not routinely stone women is automatically civilized.
Quote:C) The bottom line is that pastor had every right to do the wrong thing. It's the idiot Afghan people who chose to have a few less of them walk the earth because it. They always seem to have excuses for the people they kill.
He had as much (or as little) right to "do the wrong thing" as the next guy. As much (or as little) as the Afghans rioting in the streets.
Quote:D) Nothing trumps Supreme Court supported free speech, and he would not have had any legal problem if some kooks decided to kill someone because of what he did.
Only in your illusionary world. In the real life free speech does not trump manslaughter. If your "free speech" kill somebody, don't expect the Supreme Court to rescue you.
You are free to speak all you want, but if people get hurt as a result, you will be prosecuted.
Quote: WizardI hope not one taxpayer dime goes to police protection of that repugnant piece of &#%*. If he wants to be a martyr, fine, go to Afghanistan and walk the streets. Better he face the consequences of his actions than the innocent people currently being killed for what he did.
Ditto!
Quote: JL2
C) The bottom line is that pastor had every right to do the wrong thing. It's the idiot Afghan people who chose to have a few less of them walk the earth because it. They always seem to have excuses for the people they kill.
This is classic Jerry Logan rhetoric. He always does this, take the least favored side in an argument, so he can get a lot of mileage out of it. He learned it in Troll 101..
Quote: Face/sigh. Just last month I listened to a preacher on a Christian talk show 'call his brothers to war against homosexuality' and declare that AIDS 'is a judgement by God against those who partake in homosexual behavior' and 'is a deserved fate'.
Peace and love indeed. Clearly, imperfections are found in all peoples.
That may not be in good taste but it's hardy on par with what the barbaric Muslims do and say.
Quote: JL2Christianity is grounded in peace.
Not always.
Quote: FaceNot at all, same as I don't judge all Afghans as 'barbarians' based on the barbaric actions of some. I was just pointing out that in all peoples, all races, all religions, there can be found nastiness. We're all much the same in that regard.
There is clearly a Muslim problem in this world, and there is clearly no other religion that's reacting to issues anything like these people do. We all have our failings, but the failings of the Muslims are barbaric compared to that of any other religion.
Quote: weaselmanWhen an angry mob runs down the street and sets your house on fire, good luck "departing the area or hiding".
What is "world court"? Or "civilized country"? If you are talking about some kind of moral code, then taking any action knowing that people may get hurt as a direct result of it is equally "illegal".
Speaking of "civilized countries", I know you like the warm feeling that you are living in one, but let me tel you something. Civilized people do not burn books. They also avoid doing things they know are hurtful to others, even to those they don't like very much.
That's what "civilized" means in my book. So, don't flatter yourself, not everybody, who does not routinely stone women is automatically civilized.
He had as much (or as little) right to "do the wrong thing" as the next guy. As much (or as little) as the Afghans rioting in the streets.
Only in your illusionary world. In the real life free speech does not trump manslaughter. If your "free speech" kill somebody, don't expect the Supreme Court to rescue you.
You are free to speak all you want, but if people get hurt as a result, you will be prosecuted.
That's just it. You can count on angry mobs NOT running down your street because it's stupid and dangerous. People here have something to lose.
If the people being offended are not barbaric in nature then they would not be dangerous to one another. But these people are, and they sow what they reap.
Burning books in this country is not only civilized, it's protected free speech. And that is the only thing that counts.
Quote: JL2There is no bible-burning going on today that anyone cares about. That's because Christians respect other's rights, and they're not involved in 24 of the 26 current violent conflicts going on around the world today trying to convert all others like the Muslims are. Islamic religion is grounded in violence. Christianity is grounded in peace.
I read that and thought it sounded familiar. And then I looked:
from this post.Quote: JerryLoganAs you conveniently and selectively leave out the fact that there are currently 24 deadly conflicts going on in this world, and the wonderful Muslim religion is involved in all but one of them.
Religion of peace? Destroy 'em and we have a shot at world peace.
and:
from this post.Quote: JerryLoganI'll repeat what O'Reilly said on the View: Muslims attacked us on 9-11. I also know the Koran is a hypocritical, violent writing that should be eliminated from civilization. Those morons are involved in almost every violent conflict on the face of the earth.
Quote: MathExtremistQuote: JL2There is no bible-burning going on today that anyone cares about. That's because Christians respect other's rights, and they're not involved in 24 of the 26 current violent conflicts going on around the world today trying to convert all others like the Muslims are. Islamic religion is grounded in violence. Christianity is grounded in peace.
I read that and thought it sounded familiar. And then I looked:from this post.Quote: JerryLoganAs you conveniently and selectively leave out the fact that there are currently 24 deadly conflicts going on in this world, and the wonderful Muslim religion is involved in all but one of them.
Religion of peace? Destroy 'em and we have a shot at world peace.
and:from this post.Quote: JerryLoganI'll repeat what O'Reilly said on the View: Muslims attacked us on 9-11. I also know the Koran is a hypocritical, violent writing that should be eliminated from civilization. Those morons are involved in almost every violent conflict on the face of the earth.
I was right, hammering away at you with common sense on the other thread irked you enough to look for "match the words" games elsewhere. You're getting so upset at the fact that you're looking like you're afraid of meeting Mr. singer that you're wandering.
I found 24 of the 26 deadly VIOLENT conflicts on the internet. So Logan was correct.
Quote: EvenBobHe always does this, take the least favored side in an argument, so he can get a lot of mileage out of it. He learned it in Troll 101..
I don't think Jerry Singer has actually completed Trolling 101. A lot of aspiring Trolls skip it and go straight to 201 - learning some elements of advanced techniques, but missing on crucial points, such as that the troll post should almost always be shorter than the opponent's, and that the troll should work to start a chain reaction to drop out of the flame before it gets mod-hot.
P.S. Also, ironic while at that: Claiming to have a winning VP system that doesn't stand up to mathematical analysis actually produces somewhat similar results to burning a Qur'an, though on a much lesser scale.
