Automotive arguements
Quote: P90Veyron, a street race car? In no way. With its 4,500 lbs, Veyron is right up there with Hummer, firmly placing it into native road car category.
Hey, I said 'street legal race car' not 'street race car'. Yes, if you're slicing it down to a specific category then I can't argue your position. However, I was just giving a generalization. Of course I'd never take it Nurburgring, but if you were to say 'hey, I gots me a car with 1100hp that goes over 250mph' the logical question to follow would be 'you bought a race car?' Straight line top speed runs count as racing to me (Bonneville). And by old school standards...sheesh. Those cars weighed just as much with far less hp, and had tires that wouldn't make do on todays street bikes, yet they're still race cars. A Veyron's no Enzo, but it sure ain't no luxury sedan.
Quote: P90Most supercars aren't good on the track, they're too heavy, and even if they manage to work well outright, they shred their tires quickly, upon which electronic magic stops compensating. Generally anything over 3,000 lbs is very questionable for track use.
Again, I can't fault any of your explaination of GT vs GT-2, etc, but most supercars I'd argue are MADE for the track. Granted, I'm not saying head to the local Dodge dealer, buy a Viper, slap a sponsor on it and join the American LeMans Series, but there are PLENTY of amateur leagues specifically made for stock or nearly stock auto's. If you're talking specifically of professional racing (ALS, German Touring, JGTC, etc) then NO production car qualifies. But for amateur leagues, or just open track days turning hot laps, any and every one would be appropriate. Hell, even the old school Trans-Am races are nearly stock hot rods from the 60's and 70's. Referring to a Dodge Viper, or Bugatti Veyron, or Masseratti MC12, or Tuscan Speed12, or Mercedes AMG as a street legal race car fits for me, regardless if it's heavy, has AC and a BOSE system with NAV and Sirius. 'But the Mercedes is a luxury!' Not with a V12 it's not. =P (Again, this is my General view since I was talking generally. If we're talking as purists, then my view would obviously change)
Quote: P90In a tuned-up Crown Victoria, that is a factor. But most cars even considered a base for serious modification (such as WRX) are loud enough already to not require additional fart. Hatchbacks, Celica and MR2, etc can make use of this, but cars that start out as rally or muscle cars don't. Stealthy performance is always cooler than loud self-advertising.
I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you on this one. I can't think of a single, American-sold vehicle that comes with an exhaust loud enough to hear over the road noise, wind and tire squeal at over 100mph. Cars that start out as rally - like a WRX or EVO? Nope, too restricted. New muscle, like a Charger SRT8 or Rousch Mustang? Close, but still not good enough. If I'm on that knife edge of either setting a new personal record or rolling ass over teacup through the trees, I want every nuance of every note of that engine communicating to me. Maybe stock works for you and maybe I spent too much time in motorsports and marksmanship without proper ear protection, but in performance driving, it simply cannot be loud enough for me. I will concede that driving your piece down the strip in a totally unrestricted exhaust is definately douchebaggery ;). And your comment about "electronic magic stops compensating"? Oy! Electronic stability / traction control isn't even in the NEIGHBORHOOD of douche, you go straight to Girl. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200 LOL. ;)
I'm not sure if I completely understand what you're saying, but 2 years ago I bought an '09 ZR1 and drove it on our 10,000 mile trip around the country that year. I had to wait until my wife was asleep, but I got to over 100mph a half dozen times on open roads with no one around. About 148 was my fastest. Yes it does get rubber at 100, and yes, when you get on it you can easily hear the engine roar. This is a stock car that I made no upgrades to.
Is this what you were referring to?
Quote: RobSinger""I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you on this one. I can't think of a single, American-sold vehicle that comes with an exhaust loud enough to hear over the road noise, wind and tire squeal at over 100mph""
I'm not sure if I completely understand what you're saying, but 2 years ago I bought an '09 ZR1 and drove it on our 10,000 mile trip around the country that year. I had to wait until my wife was asleep, but I got to over 100mph a half dozen times on open roads with no one around. About 148 was my fastest. Yes it does get rubber at 100, and yes, when you get on it you can easily hear the engine roar. This is a stock car that I made no upgrades to.
Is this what you were referring to?
Not exactly. In 'normal' street conditions, whether it be tooling to the store for milk or a little stompin' on the gas while the wife's asleep (hehe), the 'performance' exhaust found on stock performance cars is fine. I was refering to true performance driving, such as you would do on a track during an amateur race or hot laps during track days. And I won't deny that even then it could still be heard, I just argue that for maximum driver awareness it needs to be overly loud to interpret the nuances in the sound.
In every day situations that 99% of us face, a loud exhaust is personal preference i.e. how much attention you want on yourself. If you want to set personal records turning hot laps at the local track, then loudness is not preference based, it's required. Just my opinion.
Quote: RobSingerbut I got to over 100mph a half dozen times on open roads with no one around. About 148 was my fastest. Yes it does get rubber at 100, and yes, when you get on it you can easily hear the engine roar. This is a stock car that I made no upgrades to.
What? I took my 100% stock 85 corvette up to 154mph. (Absolutely the fastest it would go)
I would certainly hope the "new" ZR1 could live up to the "200" club...
Quote: TIMSPEEDWhat? I took my 100% stock 85 corvette up to 154mph. (Absolutely the fastest it would go)
I would certainly hope the "new" ZR1 could live up to the "200" club...
I'm sure it could cause that's what it's advertised as. But I meant 148 is the fastest I wanted to go seeing that I was not alone--and even that was not smart. I did satisfy a curiosity though. It seemed like I was going 60. I had an 85 myself which I really liked back then, and although the new ones are quicker & more refined and have lots of electronics and gadgets, the "feel" is very similar.
I only say this because I KNOW that street bikes are held under this 186mph standard. What the point is of limiting the top end so astronomically high is beyond me, but I see no reason that with a car's potential damage being greater than that of a bike that they wouldn't be held to the same standard.
Street race cars... well there's the most popular class in the US, Spec Miata. Those cars kick ass.
Quote: FaceI'm kind of thinking 200mph isn't possible. Although a small number of higher end sports cars may be capable, I think the US has established 186mph as the limit of what a factory car can be capable of, whether it's limited by a governor or gear ratio. Of course there are no laws saying you can't personally disable the governor or otherwise enact that capability, but I don't think pulling a car off the lot and hitting 200 is possible.
I only say this because I KNOW that street bikes are held under this 186mph standard. What the point is of limiting the top end so astronomically high is beyond me, but I see no reason that with a car's potential damage being greater than that of a bike that they wouldn't be held to the same standard.
The 186mph is a self-imposed limit placed by motorcycle manufacturers. There are no laws limiting any vehicle's top speed. Mercedes-Benz had a 186mph limit on their AMG cars because they felt there weren't any tires that could safely handle higher speeds; I don't know if they still have that limit. It used to be 155mph.
Quote: MoscaYeah, the new ZR1s will certainly hit 200. But there aren't very many drivers who can hit it, there's more to it than holding the wheel straight and mashing the pedal, and not very many places that you CAN hit it. (Actually it's pretty much mashing the pedal and holding the wheel straight, but that isn't all that easy over about 130.)
Street race cars... well there's the most popular class in the US, Spec Miata. Those cars kick ass.
What's a spec Miata?
Quote: RobSingerWhat's a spec Miata?
Just a Mazda Miata that comes with MazdaSpeed's tuner parts. Like Dodge Charger has a Charger SRT8, Chevy Camaro has Camaro SS, same concept.
Quote: FaceJust a Mazda Miata that comes with MazdaSpeed's tuner parts. Like Dodge Charger has a Charger SRT8, Chevy Camaro has Camaro SS, same concept.
Nope, not it at all. That's the Mazdaspeed Miata.
Quote:Spec Miata is a class of racing car used in Sports Car Club of America (SCCA), National Auto Sport Association (NASA), and Midwestern Council of Sports Car Clubs (MCSCC) road racing events.
The Spec Miata (SM) class is intended to provide the opportunity to compete in low-cost cars with limited modifications, suitable for racing competition. It is intended to encourage low cost, entry level, production car based competition. Spec Miata is a "specified" class. This means that the rules for allowable modifications to the car are very strict. The class intends to put drivers on a very even footing by making their cars as identical as possible. The rules are far more conservative than the Improved Touring category, but provide equivalent safety measures....
Garth Stein, author of the best selling novel The Art of Racing in the Rain, based the book on his experience as a race car driver, having won the points championship in the Northwest region Spec Miata class in 2003. Stein left racing after a serious crash — while racing in the rain.
Spec Miatas use a specific Bilstein shock with an adjustable coil-over suspension with Eibach springs and adjustable front and rear sway bars, steel braided brake lines.
Depending on the region, Toyo, Kumho, or Hankook tires are specified. For National competition, the Toyo RA-1 (205/50R15) is the spec tire. Toyo RA-1 is now required in SCCA as of January 1, 2010 though the R-888 may be used until supplies are exhausted. The wheel size is fixed at 15x7, with the wheels weighing no less than 13 pounds.
Cars with 1.6 liter engines have a race weight of 2275 pounds (1057 kg) and first generation cars with a 1.8 liter displacement engine have a minimum race weight of 2365 pounds. "Second generation Miatas" (1999+) have a minimum weight of 2450 pounds. The 1.8 liter displacement cars may not run an aftermarket air intake and must run a throttle restrictor, while the 1.6 liter displacement cars do not require a restrictor and may run a modified air box.
The full rules for the class may be found in the current Spec Miata Category Specifications of the SCCA rule book, called the GCR (General Competition Rules & Specifications).
They are basically bone stock Miatas with the optional sport suspension. There are no engine modifications, although you are allowed to balance and blueprint the engine you can't upgrade anything. Point being, there are some great street cars that are also suitable for racing. People think "race car" and they think "speed". They should be thinking "competition". Some cars are suitable for competition, and some are not.
Quote: FaceHey, I said 'street legal race car' not 'street race car'.
Still can't call it a race car. Veyron wasn't built to run down salt flats either, they have special cars for that.
I just can't agree with calling anything that's not built for actual racing or at least isn't effective in most kinds of racing a race car. Porsche GT3 RS, GT2 RS, that's street legal race cars. Veyron, 612, Murcielago are not.
Quote: FaceAgain, I can't fault any of your explaination of GT vs GT-2, etc, but most supercars I'd argue are MADE for the track.
GT2 there referred to a specific car, Porsche GT2. While just GT in the context was "Grand Tourer". Granted, there's some foundation for confusion, since there is also GT racing, which started out as racing grand tourers, then moved to proper sports cars.
Only a fraction of supercars is trackworthy or built for track use. First supercars were not intended for racing. The very term "supercars" came to describe cars that were too fast for mere sports cars (which at the time weren't much), but at the same time clearly couldn't be called racecars either (which at the time weren't much slower than today).
Currently, out of the big makers, only Ferrari Scuderia, Gallardo Superleggera and Porsche GT2 (if you count it as as supercar - by enthusiast measure it counts, but lacks the jaw-drop factor of true supercars) are actually designed for racing. With smaller makers, the list can be expanded, adding things like Zonda R, SSC Aero and Saleen S7. And "V8 Supercars", which aren't the same "supercars" at all. I might have missed a model or two here, but otherwise the rest of supercars aren't track cars, and most are outright grand tourers.
Quote: FaceIf you're talking specifically of professional racing (ALS, German Touring, JGTC, etc) then NO production car qualifies. But for amateur leagues, or just open track days turning hot laps, any and every one would be appropriate.
So is Ford Focus - they hold races for these, and even for non-RS versions. But that doesn't yet qualify it as a race car.
A number of production cars is actually built specifically to qualify for professional and semi-professional racing series. Among them are Porsche GT2 and GT3, with hallmark German creativity named after the racing classes they qualify for. Other manufacturers are somewhat less explicit, but you can still buy race-ready production cars. Cars like Lancer Evolution and Impreza WRX have 2-liter engines specifically to qualify for rally regulations, though need safety features installed first. (BTW, while at that, the process of bringing them to 700-800 rwhp is anything but trivial and the result is far removed in usability from a stock car with similar power). It's pretty big really.
Quote: FaceAnd your comment about "electronic magic stops compensating"? Oy! Electronic stability / traction control isn't even in the NEIGHBORHOOD of douche, you go straight to Girl. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200 LOL. ;)
I was actually referring to compensating for handling problems increasingly felt in vehicles as they cross the 3,000 lbs barrier. The only way cars like R35 GTR manage to set good times is through the electronics controlling everything and spreading the required tractive effort precisely over each of the wheels and over time. But while this works for one lap, as the tires are rapidly degraded by the heavy vehicle, in a longer race (and serious races are long) the car can no longer do this, and the performance drops back to its normal point. A light car can keep running around the track on and on; the effect of weight on tire wear in performance driving is disproportionate.
Quote: FaceI was refering to true performance driving, such as you would do on a track during an amateur race or hot laps during track days. And I won't deny that even then it could still be heard, I just argue that for maximum driver awareness it needs to be overly loud to interpret the nuances in the sound.
Can't say about that for sure. I don't race professionally, and only have a relatively old Porsche with some parts replaced. However, I never really felt the need for a louder exhaust, and while it's not what the first owner got it with, I was aiming for weight reduction and lower pressure drop, not noise, so it's not any louder than a GT2. There are better indicators of engine speed there, such as tactile feel and engine sound itself.
Then, don't they realize Fast & Furious is mostly fantasy anyway? You can't do 90% of what they show in the movie, most kids who had that kind of money would buy a real car anyway, and I even saw one scene where Vin Diesel sort of dissed a "crotch rocket" as not being able to keep up with the rice burners - when anyone who owns one of those things knows that's not the case.
Quote: RobSingerYou guys seem to be up on the technolgy some, so I have a few questions. A lot of kids around here with those little Hondas and Toyotas etc. try to emulate the cars they see on Fast & Furious. I see them going by with their skinny little tires (at least to me) and offensively loud exhausts that sound like chain saws, and no doubt some of them wasted even more money on Nitrous. What's the point of the loud exhaust? I have straight pipes on my Harley, but at least that sounds like it means business. I'd be embarrassed to drive something that sounded like it was last used to cut firewood.
Then, don't they realize Fast & Furious is mostly fantasy anyway? You can't do 90% of what they show in the movie, most kids who had that kind of money would buy a real car anyway, and I even saw one scene where Vin Diesel sort of dissed a "crotch rocket" as not being able to keep up with the rice burners - when anyone who owns one of those things knows that's not the case.
All car love, regardless of how it is expressed, comes from the same place. You put straight pipes on your Harley, they put nitrous on their Civic. You can't question the object of the desire, that is personal. But the reasons are the same.
And some of those little suckers are fast as hell, and some of the kids know how to drive them. I have a younger friend who had an 11 second VW Scirocco, his car was featured in a magazine as the quickest VW in the US (since beaten). (The article poses him as a rich kid, nothing could be further from the truth. He worked for everything, he did all his own wrenching on the car, even building the manifolds and fuel rails himself from billet aluminum.) He sold it to a guy in Germany. You can get 800+hp from a Toyota Supra; lots of people have over 1000hp. Another guy puts a Jag V12 in a Miata. Another guy (with a ton of money and talent) puts a Merlin V12 in a '55 Chevy (I love the heck out of this one).
Which brings me to a point, and another analogy: you love what you can have and can afford to love. A 16 year old kid can lust after Megan Fox, but he's going to try to kiss the girl down the block. He'll lust after a Ferrari, or after the cars from F&F, but he can afford to put a fart muffler on his Saturn. Just like I could afford to put a glasspack on my '65 Pontiac in 1971. A guy gets older? I can think about buying a classic '60s muscle car if I want to. I can get a Harley and customize it, if I want to. I did get a Miata a dozen years ago, and I supercharged it and lowered the suspension and had some fun with it, and I still have it.
But it all comes from the same place. There's some pride of ownership, and there's some sense of accomplishment in doing the work yourself, and sure, there's some wearing your balls outside your zipper. But it all comes from the same place.
I like a little performance work on stock cars--I've almost always done something like add a blower or tweak something. But being experienced in this sort of thing, no matter how you cut it, you're taking away from the consistency and reliability of any car the more you modify it. I haven't looked into the things I could do to my car to give it more horsepower and I wouldn't do it anyway, but if you start with crap and suddenly find 800hp, I'd race any one of those cheapos knowing most of them would break down & never make the finish line anyway.
Quote: RobSingerI'll agree with most of that Mosca.
I like a little performance work on stock cars--I've almost always done something like add a blower or tweak something. But being experienced in this sort of thing, no matter how you cut it, you're taking away from the consistency and reliability of any car the more you modify it. I haven't looked into the things I could do to my car to give it more horsepower and I wouldn't do it anyway, but if you start with crap and suddenly find 800hp, I'd race any one of those cheapos knowing most of them would break down & never make the finish line anyway.
Yeah, I know what you mean. The Miata was great with the m45 sc, and then I thought about the bigger blower, the m62. So in order to do that I needed some frame reinforcement. So I got the racing engine mounts and a powerplant frame brace... and it just ruined the car. Before I ever added any power, the NVH went through the roof and I didn't want to drive it. I removed the mounts, and that solved about 90% of what I hated, but I left the ppf brace on because that is a real PITA to work on. And the car is OK, mostly, but still not what it was. I'd reached a point of perfect balance, then I passed it. Maybe this summer I'll put it up and take that brace off, I don't know. I used to put about 10k a season on it, last couple years it was more like 5k. Maybe I'm just getting older and stiffer, though, too.
Quote: RobSingerBut those kids are annoying as hell sometimes, because they like to think they're showing off or something by revving it up when they go by if my car's in the driveway. The sound from some of them is really ear-piercing, and the more I laugh at them the more they crank it up.
Yeah, that's the balls outside the zipper part. Nothing you can do, I think, it's just youth. But it's not always just youth, sometimes different people with different aims just bump up against each other. Sometimes I've been out with my friends, carving up the backroads through what we call mountains in this part of the country, and we'll come across a bunch of Harleys blatting along at 5mph under the speed limit, not a care in the world. And you know what? There's not a lot to say. They're enjoying the sunshine, and it's a beautiful day, and that's all there is to it. Turn around, choose a different road, whatever, we all have to share I guess. It's frustrating, but it is what it is. I know you're just expressing the frustration, it's not like you're throwing rocks at them.
I was in Chicago a few years ago, visiting my sister and her husband, and John and I went to a custom car show, which was basically about 200 or so of those cars; "ricers", they're called, for "rice burners". As much as it isn't my thing, the guys themselves were really nice, and into what they were doing. And the level of craft on most of the cars was very, very high. Of course that doesn't mean ALL of the cars on the street are like that, or even 2%. But I think that the aspirations are there, if not always the talent. The kids look at their trapped out, chalked paint '88 CRX, and see a show car. And it's a beautiful day.
In my day they stuffed V8's into Alpines and MGC's. Superchargers and turbos weren't the thing back then. I think a Miata is in that same class.
Quote: RobSingerThat's the reason I don't make a big deal out of it--they're probably all kids getting their first taste of car-fun.
:-)
Quote:In my day they stuffed V8's into Alpines and MGC's. Superchargers and turbos weren't the thing back then.
Yep, I've seen 'em! Awesome stuff.
Quote:I think a Miata is in that same class.
And it is, but not the same. The old English cars have their own gestalt, the Miata doesn't share that. The Miata is much more about the driving. The English cars have an all encompassing ownership experience that a Miata will never have. I think of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance when I think of English cars.
And sorry about the GT2 confusion, P. I thought you were referring to the GT2 racing classification in the multi car series (i.e. GT2, GT, LMP2, LMP1), and not the bad-ass Porsche.
On the subject of 'race cars' I think we must agree to disagree EVEN THOUGH I find no fault in any single thing you said. I think it's just a product of my upbringing. As a youth I spent many a weekend at the local short track where cars such as a '72 Chevy Nova's, '85 Monte Carlo's and big ol' 70's era Pontiac Bonneville's made up the majority of the field. These cars, other than having their interiors removed, windows punched out and a simple roll cage installed, were 100% stock with the exception that they may have had an engine replacement if it wasn't a 350-355ci. But other than replacing a stock 305ci with a stock 350ci, they had a factory fresh tranny, suspension, brakes, exhaust...yet these were race cars. A purist would argue that a true 'street legal race car' would be like an Enzo, since so much of it is derived from F1. But if my country bumpkin self sees an Oldsmobile 442 parked in some farmers hay field with no headlights or backseat, I think "Oooh! Race car!!"
The same thinking lead to my original post. Yeah, a factory Dodge Viper GTS-R is miles apart from the actual GT series Viper GTS-R race car, but calling the factory model a 'race car' just fits for me. Same as calling my GSXR600 a street legal race bike. From a purist perspective it's not even in the same ballpark, but saying that it's so rarely starts an arguement.
Also going to have to agree to disagree on the electronics portion. Yes, to gain maximum performance out of the new high hp, high weight machines, it may be required. I'll give you that. Personally though, I have a major hatred of them all. Even in my daily driver, I will not buy a vehicle with traction control, stability control, etc. It's almost impossible to find one without anti lock brakes anymore, so I pull the fuse to disable them. In real world applications, I am more than proficient enough to handle the worst NYS winters have to offer, and I found that having the car take over and do something I didn't expect, as my wife's Nitro does, is VERY unsettling. And if I'm performance driving, hell, controlling the uncontrollable is the fun part of it all. If ya can't die, you ain't livin' =p
Mosca also nailed the youngin's and their ricers. An 18yr old usually can't afford to buy a new Challenger and sent it to Dodge for performance upgrades, but he can afford a used Civic and a few feet of 2" straight pipe. Balls hanging out their jeans? LOL, well said. Teenage life is all about 'look at me!' and tossing a $100 cherry bomb on a 4cyl compact gets that for them. There are some truely amazing 4cyl tuner cars people have created that any car guy would be impressed by. These kids can just put on a loud exhaust and maybe a ground effects kit and have a car that looks just like it. Sure it's no 800hp monster, but your average 16yr old cheerleader can't tell the difference. And that's all that matters. ;)
Quote: FaceA purist would argue that a true 'street legal race car' would be like an Enzo, since so much of it is derived from F1. But if my country bumpkin self sees an Oldsmobile 442 parked in some farmers hay field with no headlights or backseat, I think "Oooh! Race car!!"
Well, it's really simple when it comes to it. A race car is a car that was designed or modified specifically for racing. That means no fat, manual gearbox, a least some characteristic of race cars (harness, fuel cell, additional gauges, etc). In-depth, it means qualifying for particular classes, and specifically not limited to the competitions a regular similar car qualifies for.
Quote: FaceThe same thinking lead to my original post. Yeah, a factory Dodge Viper GTS-R is miles apart from the actual GT series Viper GTS-R race car, but calling the factory model a 'race car' just fits for me.
I can agree with that much: Dodge Viper GTS-R is a race car. It's not a supercar, but it is a race car.
On the other hand, the regular Viper is *not* a race car, neither is it a supercar, it's either a sports car or a sporty muscle car.
Similarly, Murcielago is a supercar, but it's not a race car (or anywhere near). Gallardo is a borderline supercar, so is Gallardo GT3, and it is a race car.
Quote: FaceAlso going to have to agree to disagree on the electronics portion. Yes, to gain maximum performance out of the new high hp, high weight machines, it may be required. I'll give you that. Personally though, I have a major hatred of them all. Even in my daily driver, I will not buy a vehicle with traction control, stability control, etc.
I don't see where the disagreement lies. What I was saying is that these cars depend on their electronics and intact tires to go fast. Not that they are good.
However (this I was not saying previously), a degree of assistance is necessary for top of the line modern cars. Not for all, but the best ones require it. Without its chassis technology, GT2 would be just a turbocharged beetle with a spoiler on it. Some cars can do without it, but they never reach the degree of performance per hp/lb that others have. There is fun, there is scary, there is unhinged, and then there is just plain crashing into a tree, A-pillar going halfway through your head, and a press squeezing your car to make it stack better in the junkyard.
You can go back to the old day controls, but then you have to go back to the old day power to weight ratios as well (or make it unable to put the power down). It's easy in an Exige or a stiffened-up older car, but in a modern 5 lb/hp car it's a luxury you can't afford.
Quote: P90Well, it's really simple when it comes to it. A race car is a car that was designed or modified specifically for racing. That means no fat, manual gearbox, a least some characteristic of race cars (harness, fuel cell, additional gauges, etc)...
I'm slightly confused. I mean, I dig what your saying, but those old boats at the short track I spoke of weren't manual and were DEFINATELY not devoid of fat. And they qualify for classes, in this case Charger Street Stock. Surely they're race cars, right? I mean, they got numbers and everything! NUMBERS, man! ;)
Quote: P90I can agree with that much: Dodge Viper GTS-R is a race car. It's not a supercar, but it is a race car.
On the other hand, the regular Viper is *not* a race car, neither is it a supercar, it's either a sports car or a sporty muscle car.
The GTS-R GT Race Car is a race car. The factory GTS-R is simply a GTS with a body kit and mild brake and suspension upgrades. But I still argue that were you to go to a Viper meet at Laguna Seca, slap a few bolt-on upgrades on your factory GTS and hit the tracks, you could call it a race car and no one would think twice. Again, I just think it's a difference of me talking in a general, everyday sense and you coming from the purist point of view. Indeed, from the purist point of view, nary a thing you've said is incorrect. If we ever find ourselves in each others company talking cars amongst other men and someone refers to Magnum P.I.'s Testarossa as a street legal race car, we can stand shoulder to shoulder and rip him to shreds. But when I'm talking to my wife and she asks why I want a Viper, I reserve the right to reply 'Because I want a race car, but it needs to be street legal' =p
Quote: P90However (this I was not saying previously), a degree of assistance is necessary for top of the line modern cars. Not for all, but the best ones require it. Without its chassis technology, GT2 would be just a turbocharged beetle with a spoiler on it. Some cars can do without it, but they never reach the degree of performance per hp/lb that others have. There is fun, there is scary, there is unhinged, and then there is just plain crashing into a tree, A-pillar going halfway through your head, and a press squeezing your car to make it stack better in the junkyard.
"There is fun, there is scary, there is unhinged, and then there is just plain crashing into a tree..." You see that very last clear pixel, just before that black one that makes up part of the letter 'c' in crash? That's where I want to be. To hell with electronics. =D
Quote: Faceand someone refers to Magnum P.I.'s Testarossa as a street legal race car,
You mean his 308GTS?
Sonny Crockett had a white Testarossa for a while after they blew up his Daytona.
Quote: zippyboyYou mean his 308GTS?
Could be. The last time I seen Magnum's car was about 23yrs ago at the age of 7. Time may have warped my memory. Good call if indeed it was a 308GTS.
Quote: FaceThe GTS-R GT Race Car is a race car. The factory GTS-R is simply a GTS with a body kit and mild brake and suspension upgrades.
I'm not quite sure which GTS-R you mean. There's the GTS, which is the proper variant of the car, and GTS-R is for racing and not really normally sold. Might be a mixup somewhere.
Quote: Face"There is fun, there is scary, there is unhinged, and then there is just plain crashing into a tree..." You see that very last clear pixel, just before that black one that makes up part of the letter 'c' in crash? That's where I want to be. To hell with electronics. =D
Well, the problem is - it's all fun and games before you actually get it. 5 lb/hp in a car is nothing like 5 lb/hp in a bike. I've been thinking a lot, when I was working on my car, about how it will be so much fun going around the right way and all that. Even previously driving a sports car, I wasn't prepared. It ended up in no idea how many hundred horsepower hiding somewhere in the fourth ECU program which I never engage. Once you get there, you get close enough to see that one slip and that's it.
I don't like cars that over-rely on electronics, like the R35 GTR; there's no point in you actually being behind the wheel. Similar things have been said about the 458, but I'll need to drive it to believe it's anywhere as bad as the Nissan, and there isn't exactly a line of people asking me to drive theirs around. But, like it or not, driving assistance is a necessary part of modern cars. Electronics are what can keep you at that point just before the crash, without actually sending you there.
Without assistance, this much power just wouldn't be possible to put down and handle, not for anyone who isn't a full-time professional racing driver. The 997 is still very much a driver's car - it just isn't the 930. But it can do things, in a normal human's hands, that 930 could only do with Walter Rohrl. Speed or hands-on control? A personal choice. But if you choose hands-on control, it's better to choose an easier car without too much power, because otherwise you'll end up with neither. We just aren't at the point where power/weight is the limiting factor anymore.
Quote: P90I'm not quite sure which GTS-R you mean. There's the GTS, which is the proper variant of the car, and GTS-R is for racing and not really normally sold. Might be a mixup somewhere.
Dodge makes a factory produced, street legal GTS-R. It's basically just a special edition Viper, similar to an SRT10 being a special edition Ram and an SRT8 being a special edition Challenger or Charger. It looks almost identical to the racing one, sans sponsors and number plate, and obviously it is all 'street'. There's no carbon-fiber-everything, it actually has an interior, door panels, passenger seat, radio, etc., the engines tuned for reliability and pump gas, ya know? Like I said, it's basically a GTS with a body kit and minor upgrades. Not many were sold; I'd think you'd find more GTS ACR's than GTS-R's on the street, although I did see one which passed me on the thruway a few years back. I damn near crashed oogling and drooling over it. Google or E-bay, check it out.
I see we're closing in on like opinions. =) Because yeah, once you get up into the ridiculous, like of of those SSC Aero's, purely manual driver control is going to be a handful of hurt. But like you said, there's not a line of owners lining up to let us drive one to find out (damn the luck). If somehow I got ahold of a 2500lb, 800hp, RWD monster, yeah....I guess a little computer assistance would be welcome. My line of thinking was in something I may actually be able to sit in sometime, like a Viper, Vette,....hell, even a tuned 240Z or similar drifter type car.
So yes, if 50Cent ever drops buy and throws me the keys to his Veyron, I'll happily oblige and leave all the little assistance buttons alone. But if Singer is ever foolish enough to give this guy the keys to his Vette, I'm pulling the fuses as soon as I'm out of eyeshot of his driveway =)
Quote: FaceBut like you said, there's not a line of owners lining up to let us drive one to find out (damn the luck). If somehow I got ahold of a 2500lb, 800hp, RWD monster, yeah....I guess a little computer assistance would be welcome.
It's not necessarily in the realms of ridiculous. A 997 Turbo with its "modest" 420 or 480 bhp (but actually put there) is driveable with a bit of headroom. One upgraded to 620 bhp (as the modern GT2) is barely driveable. You go over 700, and it's not. You do that and lighten the car to sub-3,000 lbs, and you just aren't going to make any use out of it unless you either tune the power down or drive like an octogenarian. A lot of modern cars keep you from engaging full power, and when they let you do so, they make sure it gets there evenly or not at all. If they don't, they don't let you use that power, for instance Mercs and BMWs simply spin the tires. The very few cars that let you use it aren't driveable past merely getting around by an ordinary person that has a day job other than driving.
As much as a GT2 is already well past a regular driver's capabilities to drive competitively if all assistance is switched off. You can still drive it without crashing, but only slow enough that you'll be passed by regular Turbos.
Quote: FaceSo yes, if 50Cent ever drops buy and throws me the keys to his Veyron, I'll happily oblige and leave all the little assistance buttons alone.
Veyron actually has a relatively moderate power-to-weight ratio, and I don't think you can even turn its assistance off (you can pretend to, but it's still on inside). In fact, Viper GTS-R - proper GTS-R, not the confusingly named replica being sold now - has a much better power to weight ratio. Many top-performance cars do.
Rear-wheel drive isn't as good for 0-60 records, but past that, power to weight matters. Due to its weight and handling limitations, Veyron only held an underwhelming eighth place on TG Power Board and demonstrated a 7:40 time on Nordschleife, not even in the top 20 and behind many cars with lower power/weight. It's far from the most hardcore or the fastest cars both on slow tracks and on fast ones such as Nordschleife. Nothing has quite as much bling, though.
But still, I would leave the title of the greatest supercar of all times to McLaren F1 - it may have a few miles less in top speed, but it's such a driver's car, it's so overwhelmingly out there, it not just beat but eclipsed everything when it came out, and just to think that was two decades ago. It's also notoriously demanding to drive, so with that anyone who owns it, you know it's not just for show. At the same time, with its three seats and a top speed well above racing needs, it's firmly a supercar, not just a race car with turning lights.
And all things considered, I'm surprised the Veyron turned a 7:40. That must have been one hell of a ride. I hope all this focus on the Veyron didn't lead you to believe I actually LIKED it. I mean, I appreciate the beastness of the hp and top speed, but it's definately not something I'd considering owning, even if I had the $1mm plus to own it. As far as million dollar cars go I'm with you on the McLaren, but I'll be damned if I could ever get used to driving in the middle. Right side drive is bad enough; sitting front and center would just weird me right out.
My current desires still lie with something I could hope to own, which is a Viper GTS. I sat in my old man's lap and drove his '72 Cuda at 6yrs old and I guess the Mopar love stuck with me. The V10 sound was weird at first, but I've grown to like it. As far as 'exotic supercars' go (or whatever your definition is for them) I currently am into a few of the newest ones, like the Gumpert Apollo and whatever Lexus' new one is. I've just discovered them recently so couldn't comment on what they're good at vs the tried and true stable, but good lawd almighty, that Lexus is one of the sexiest cars I've ever laid eyes on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callaway_Cars#SledgeHammer_Corvette
Quote: TIMSPEEDDon't forget this 1988 Gem...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callaway_Cars#SledgeHammer_Corvette
1988? Was that the car year or the year this test was supposedly done? If it was indeed the year of the test, someone needs to give that man the 'Biggest Balls on the Planet' for doing 250mph on 80's technology rubber.
Quote: FaceWow. Never would have guessed a Gallardo holds the Nurburgring record.
Well, it's not quite the actual record. The list there, long as it is, is incomplete, as it includes only road cars. The overall record is still held by Porsche 956, at 6:11 - and in 30 years, nothing could even touch it. Of course, it's not that we can't build something a little bit faster, it's that new racing regulations won't allow it, and road cars are too far away altogether.
The 6:44 Gallardo got on that list by at least being based on the production car, even though it's overhauled inside, while 956 is a purebred racecar that never had official road-legal versions. Though the Gallardo chassis is indeed quite good, a lot better than Murcielago, for one.
Quote: FaceI currently am into a few of the newest ones, like the Gumpert Apollo and whatever Lexus' new one is. I've just discovered them recently so couldn't comment on what they're good at vs the tried and true stable, but good lawd almighty, that Lexus is one of the sexiest cars I've ever laid eyes on.
Well, it looks pretty good, like a less outrageous version of Nissan GT-R. Still though I feel the car to be overrated in the media. Sure, it's got a lot going for it, but... $400k is just too overboard for what it is, a front-engined Lexus. It just doesn't seem to fit anywhere.
