IRS Audit Surprise
September 25th, 2022 at 1:54:16 PM
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When RFID chips were first introduced there were forecasts that the chips could be tracked throughout the casino floor and even when they left the casino.
I don't think that ever happened.
To the best of my knowledge unless your RFID chips are placed in the betting circle on table layouts they can't be scanned.
Cages have RFID scanners at each window.
And they never made RFID chip scanners compact enuff for craps which was an early goal.
I don't think that ever happened.
To the best of my knowledge unless your RFID chips are placed in the betting circle on table layouts they can't be scanned.
Cages have RFID scanners at each window.
And they never made RFID chip scanners compact enuff for craps which was an early goal.
September 25th, 2022 at 2:01:52 PM
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This question comes up a lot & my understanding is that legally the personal gambling diary is the final word.
However Win / Loss statements can be used as supporting evidence to corroborate the gambling log.
In practice, because of the fact that the tax code is very complicated & that often times even the IRS agents themselves may not even know it, or can have different interpretations, then anything could potentially happen during an audit.
Also since most people don’t file as professional gamblers this would not be something the IRS sees a lot of so they don’t have a uniform way of handling it.
Also regardless of what the actual tax law is, IRS agents are hardwired to give more weight to official looking 3rd party documents rather then taking a tax payers word on something.
Source? I’ve listened to several podcast where Russell Fox is a guest & this topic almost always comes up.
This exact topic is also discussed in books that delve into Tax issues with gambling.
However Win / Loss statements can be used as supporting evidence to corroborate the gambling log.
In practice, because of the fact that the tax code is very complicated & that often times even the IRS agents themselves may not even know it, or can have different interpretations, then anything could potentially happen during an audit.
Also since most people don’t file as professional gamblers this would not be something the IRS sees a lot of so they don’t have a uniform way of handling it.
Also regardless of what the actual tax law is, IRS agents are hardwired to give more weight to official looking 3rd party documents rather then taking a tax payers word on something.
Source? I’ve listened to several podcast where Russell Fox is a guest & this topic almost always comes up.
This exact topic is also discussed in books that delve into Tax issues with gambling.
September 25th, 2022 at 2:25:05 PM
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Brick... this is exactly why I titled this thread IRS Audit Surprise.
I also thought logs were proof #1.
I also had never heard of an audit for casino gambling.
I ask again, does this mark a sea change?
I also thought logs were proof #1.
I also had never heard of an audit for casino gambling.
I ask again, does this mark a sea change?
September 25th, 2022 at 2:36:04 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonBrick... this is exactly why I titled this thread IRS Audit Surprise.
I also thought logs were proof #1.
I also had never heard of an audit for casino gambling.
I ask again, does this mark a sea change?
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Nope. Just different government officials handling the same situation differently.
The same way one cop might drive by & tell you its illegal to loiter on the sidewalk & to move along or you’ll be arrested, & another cop from the same department might drive by later & say he can’t legally do anything to you for standing on the sidewalk unless you commit some other crime.
Standard stuff for dealing with large government bureaucracies.
Plus if they handled every situation in the same way, they wouldn’t need 87,000 new IRS agents.
They could eliminate much of their staff and just have a computer process all the returns using the same method for each.
Last edited by: Brickapotamus on Sep 25, 2022
September 25th, 2022 at 3:10:22 PM
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There is much misinformation about the 87,000.
They will be hired over ten years, many to replace normal attrition.
As far as the sea change let's see what happens in the future.
We know what has happened in the past.
They will be hired over ten years, many to replace normal attrition.
As far as the sea change let's see what happens in the future.
We know what has happened in the past.
September 25th, 2022 at 3:31:55 PM
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Reasonable point on the 87,000
My point was more along the lines of government institutions don’t usually like to do things that have the potential to reduce their own funding which simplification / standardization of tax rules has the potential to do.
As far as I know the last change in tax code that affected gamblers was the changes in 2019 (I think it was) that eliminated the ability of professionals to carry forward losses from prior years to offset current profits.
I think there was a change too in how rec players could write off losses that was a negative from them also
Haven’t heard of any changes since then and gamblers probably are not a large enough group that the IRS would do a sea change on to try to generate more revenue.
But we will see.
My point was more along the lines of government institutions don’t usually like to do things that have the potential to reduce their own funding which simplification / standardization of tax rules has the potential to do.
As far as I know the last change in tax code that affected gamblers was the changes in 2019 (I think it was) that eliminated the ability of professionals to carry forward losses from prior years to offset current profits.
I think there was a change too in how rec players could write off losses that was a negative from them also
Haven’t heard of any changes since then and gamblers probably are not a large enough group that the IRS would do a sea change on to try to generate more revenue.
But we will see.
September 25th, 2022 at 4:31:46 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: ChumpChangeSo do W/L statements say you had a coin-in of $100,000 and a coin-out of $101,000 for a $1,000 win on the slots, or do they just skip that and say you won $1,000 on the slots?
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It's been a long time since I looked at a WL statement but I recall columns showing bets made and payoffs.
So yes... if you bet $5 and cashed out $6 you'd see that plus a mention of $1 win.
But I'm guessing the actual format might vary from casino to casino.
I used to be able to get my statements online from Caesars but since I haven't played there in years their website now blocks me from the WL reports page.
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I was also able to access my WL statement at Caesars' in the past, and I have played there this year and last (was trying to get my 2021 stmt), but now I also get an access denied message when signed in. So I don't think it has to do with recent vs not play. Perhaps they only issue those in person or with id verification now.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
September 25th, 2022 at 5:05:21 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonWhen RFID chips were first introduced there were forecasts that the chips could be tracked throughout the casino floor and even when they left the casino.
I don't think that ever happened.
To the best of my knowledge unless your RFID chips are placed in the betting circle on table layouts they can't be scanned.
Cages have RFID scanners at each window.
And they never made RFID chip scanners compact enuff for craps which was an early goal.
link to original post
In other common applications, "long range" RFID readers are able to scan a tag from (up to) about 12 inches away.
Longer ranges are certainly possible (people listen to radio stations broadcasting from space, now), but my understanding is that the tag needs its own power supply to make it practical.
May the cards fall in your favor.
September 25th, 2022 at 8:46:21 PM
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My hypothetical non expert completely random opinion is to never file as a pro. Invest in many small start up companies owned by trust , gift as much as you can and purchase real estate in series LLCs owned by corporations that are owned by trusts. Use many tax attorneys
October 2nd, 2022 at 9:59:26 AM
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This. I wouldn't think one case marks a sea of change.Quote: BrickapotamusNope. Just different government officials handling the same situation differently. link to original postQuote: AlanMendelsonI ask again, does this mark a sea change?
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I run Easy Vegas ( https://easy.vegas )
October 2nd, 2022 at 10:38:45 AM
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Quote: DieterQuote: AlanMendelsonWhen RFID chips were first introduced there were forecasts that the chips could be tracked throughout the casino floor and even when they left the casino.
I don't think that ever happened.
To the best of my knowledge unless your RFID chips are placed in the betting circle on table layouts they can't be scanned.
Cages have RFID scanners at each window.
And they never made RFID chip scanners compact enuff for craps which was an early goal.
link to original post
In other common applications, "long range" RFID readers are able to scan a tag from (up to) about 12 inches away.
Longer ranges are certainly possible (people listen to radio stations broadcasting from space, now), but my understanding is that the tag needs its own power supply to make it practical.
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Well you could certainly get a watch battery in a chip. It would hold its power for years, though snapping chips to recycle a battery might make more economical sense as far as waste.
Sanitized for Your Protection
October 3rd, 2022 at 11:48:35 PM
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I researched the state of the art in RFID about 2 years ago. Fascinating things, these RFIDs.Quote: Dieter{snip}
In other common applications, "long range" RFID readers are able to scan a tag from (up to) about 12 inches away.
Longer ranges are certainly possible (people listen to radio stations broadcasting from space, now), but my understanding is that the tag needs its own power supply to make it practical.
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The largest part of an RFID chip is the antenna. It performs three functions: 1. Receive the signal. 2. Capture the energy of the signal. 3. Transmit the answer.
The signal energy is then used to power the chip, which processes the signal, formulates a response, and transmits the answer. All on that little sip of energy the dinky antenna could collect. It's amazing they work at all. Since the actual power of the answering signal is about half of the received power, it's very feeble, hence the very low operating range. To track the chops all around the floor, you'd have to have detectors within about three inches of the player. You could defeat detectors in the rack just by ratholing chips in your back pocket. The alternative is the high-power 'long-range' interrogators, which are very obvious.
This is why I really chuckle when the conspiracy theorists rail about RFID chips being used to 'track you whereever you go'. The chips can't handle much power, the antennas would have to be outrageously long, or the detectors would have to be so obvious (and onmipresent), plus the army of workers would all have to swear to secrecy for the conspiracy to work. Now, if you're going for a Gattica-type society, sure, possible, if everyone allows thenselves to be chipped and go through turnstiles everywhere, but I don't think that's likely.
October 4th, 2022 at 12:23:17 AM
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I've never heard of batteries inside chips. The RFID reads a tiny dot on the chip.
Locating chips on the casino floor isn't the main goal of RFID.
The first goal is to prevent counterfeiting of chips.
The second goal is to make sure bets are accurstely registered.
The third goal is to speed accurate payoffs at the cage.
I think everything else is pie in the sky.
At some casinos the cage will verify with the table what you colored up before they'll pay you.
At Red Rock for example going to the cage with $3000 or more requires a call to the eye AND to the table.
Rathole all you want... until you try to cash more chips than the table system says you should have.
Locating chips on the casino floor isn't the main goal of RFID.
The first goal is to prevent counterfeiting of chips.
The second goal is to make sure bets are accurstely registered.
The third goal is to speed accurate payoffs at the cage.
I think everything else is pie in the sky.
At some casinos the cage will verify with the table what you colored up before they'll pay you.
At Red Rock for example going to the cage with $3000 or more requires a call to the eye AND to the table.
Rathole all you want... until you try to cash more chips than the table system says you should have.
October 4th, 2022 at 5:01:33 AM
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um.. make 2 or more trips to the cage to different cashiers.Quote: AlanMendelsonAt Red Rock for example going to the cage with $3000 or more requires a call to the eye AND to the table.
Rathole all you want... until you try to cash more chips than the table system says you should have.
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or goto a different cage.
ie: at my casino theres main cage, high limit cage, poker room cage
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
October 4th, 2022 at 6:00:48 AM
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Quote: 100xOddsum.. make 2 or more trips to the cage to different cashiers.
or goto a different cage.
ie: at my casino theres main cage, high limit cage, poker room cage
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Nice try... especially when one or two windows are open and the cashiers ask for an ID or player's card for anything above $500.
And then they have that little computer terminal where they keep track of you.
How many trips did you want to make?
Even at peak times I've never seen more than 3 cage windows open.
October 4th, 2022 at 6:20:32 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonI've never heard of batteries inside chips. The RFID reads a tiny dot on the chip.
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I usually hear about batteries in non-casino applications, not embedded in casino chips.
A lot of confusion and kerfuffle seems to stem from a misundetstanding of what an "active" RFID tag (with a battery, like a toll transponder) can do compared to what a "passive" RFID tag (no battery, like proximity keycards and casino chips) can do.
If you've used a wireless cell phone charging puck, you probably have a pretty good idea of how close the casino chip needs to be to the reader to be scanned.
May the cards fall in your favor.
October 4th, 2022 at 7:31:46 AM
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tell them you got the chips playing poker.
what are they going to do?
heck, say you got them playing slots
what are they going to do?
heck, say you got them playing slots
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
October 4th, 2022 at 7:44:46 AM
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Quote: 100xOddstell them you got the chips playing poker.
what are they going to do?
heck, say you got them playing slots
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Hold your chips till you bring in valid government ID.
I've seen it happen.
October 5th, 2022 at 11:25:33 PM
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Quote: SeedvalueMy hypothetical non expert completely random opinion is to never file as a pro.
This is my opinion also. Once you go down that road they have got you. I went through something similar 30 years ago when I was in the antique business. I was supposed to have a state tax number and I was supposed to be collecting state sales tax when I did antique shows but I never did and I never got a tax number and they never caught me. All I heard was horror stories from people who did have tax numbers and did file and the state hounded them for years. I have a feeling it's the same with filing as a professional gambler. Just don't do it unless you absolutely have to.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 6th, 2022 at 8:42:30 AM
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Quote: EvenBobQuote: SeedvalueMy hypothetical non expert completely random opinion is to never file as a pro.
This is my opinion also. Once you go down that road they have got you. I went through something similar 30 years ago when I was in the antique business. I was supposed to have a state tax number and I was supposed to be collecting state sales tax when I did antique shows but I never did and I never got a tax number and they never caught me. All I heard was horror stories from people who did have tax numbers and did file and the state hounded them for years. I have a feeling it's the same with filing as a professional gambler. Just don't do it unless you absolutely have to.
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They didn't catch you because you only sold one antique a day and you recognized the patterns of the IRS.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
October 6th, 2022 at 8:55:47 AM
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So if you're playing table games, they only have data inputted for your buy-ins and cash-outs, not your coin-in & coin-out, but they add up the same anyway. It's just that coin-in numbers could be many times higher than buy-ins and cash-outs, but the difference will be the same.
So if you have $100,000 coin-in on a machine, it may only be $10K-$20K of buy-ins at a table of the same game. Your table cash-out total doesn't get near the machine coin-out total, unless you're on a super hot streak.
I'd just notate how much was lost or won in a session and add up the W/L sessions instead of adding up the coin-in & coin-out or the buy-ins and cash-outs to get the difference.
So having $10,000 of winning sessions and $9,000 of losing sessions, that's a profit of $1,000.
So if you have $100,000 coin-in on a machine, it may only be $10K-$20K of buy-ins at a table of the same game. Your table cash-out total doesn't get near the machine coin-out total, unless you're on a super hot streak.
I'd just notate how much was lost or won in a session and add up the W/L sessions instead of adding up the coin-in & coin-out or the buy-ins and cash-outs to get the difference.
So having $10,000 of winning sessions and $9,000 of losing sessions, that's a profit of $1,000.
October 6th, 2022 at 9:04:25 AM
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Quote: darkozQuote: EvenBobQuote: SeedvalueMy hypothetical non expert completely random opinion is to never file as a pro.
This is my opinion also. Once you go down that road they have got you. I went through something similar 30 years ago when I was in the antique business. I was supposed to have a state tax number and I was supposed to be collecting state sales tax when I did antique shows but I never did and I never got a tax number and they never caught me. All I heard was horror stories from people who did have tax numbers and did file and the state hounded them for years. I have a feeling it's the same with filing as a professional gambler. Just don't do it unless you absolutely have to.
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They didn't catch you because you only sold one antique a day and you recognized the patterns of the IRS.
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That is seriously funny!!!
tuttigym
October 6th, 2022 at 10:04:11 AM
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Quote: darkozQuote: EvenBobQuote: SeedvalueMy hypothetical non expert completely random opinion is to never file as a pro.
This is my opinion also. Once you go down that road they have got you. I went through something similar 30 years ago when I was in the antique business. I was supposed to have a state tax number and I was supposed to be collecting state sales tax when I did antique shows but I never did and I never got a tax number and they never caught me. All I heard was horror stories from people who did have tax numbers and did file and the state hounded them for years. I have a feeling it's the same with filing as a professional gambler. Just don't do it unless you absolutely have to.
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They didn't catch you because you only sold one antique a day and you recognized the patterns of the IRS.
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They didn't catch me because they're seriously understaffed so they wait for you to make stupid mistakes and once they got you they never let you go. I just didn't get into the system and that's the key to stay out of the system as long as possible.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 6th, 2022 at 10:22:08 AM
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Quote: EvenBob
They didn't catch me because they're seriously understaffed so they wait for you to make stupid mistakes and once they got you they never let you go. I just didn't get into the system and that's the key to stay out of the system as long as possible.
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Back in the 90s when I had a CPA he told me the IRS is always understaffed just like every government agency is and they don't care about going after people who make mistakes what they care about is making the most amount of money possible for the time they put in. They're like a business they're not going to waste their time on things that aren't going to make them money. If you happen to blunder into their path they won't ignore you but they're not going to put any effort into coming after you unless you do something stupid. So staying out of the system as long as possible is the way to go.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 6th, 2022 at 10:53:45 AM
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Quote: EvenBobQuote: EvenBob
They didn't catch me because they're seriously understaffed so they wait for you to make stupid mistakes and once they got you they never let you go. I just didn't get into the system and that's the key to stay out of the system as long as possible.
link to original post
Back in the 90s when I had a CPA he told me the IRS is always understaffed just like every government agency is and they don't care about going after people who make mistakes what they care about is making the most amount of money possible for the time they put in. They're like a business they're not going to waste their time on things that aren't going to make them money. If you happen to blunder into their path they won't ignore you but they're not going to put any effort into coming after you unless you do something stupid. So staying out of the system as long as possible is the way to go.
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Well hopefully the same people who listens to your bad Roulette advice will also follow your advice to not pay taxes.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
October 6th, 2022 at 11:38:14 AM
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Some people with low income don't have to file.
October 6th, 2022 at 12:26:11 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonSome people with low income don't have to file.
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If you make over $600 a year I believe you have to file because of Social Security withholding. So yeah if you make under $600 a year that would be considered low-income. That's basically considered no income
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 6th, 2022 at 4:59:08 PM
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Quote: EvenBobQuote: AlanMendelsonSome people with low income don't have to file.
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If you make over $600 a year I believe you have to file because of Social Security withholding. So yeah if you make under $600 a year that would be considered low-income. That's basically considered no income
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You're way off.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hrblock.com/tax-center/income/other-income/how-much-do-you-have-to-make-to-file-taxes/amp/
October 6th, 2022 at 5:45:19 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: EvenBobQuote: AlanMendelsonSome people with low income don't have to file.
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If you make over $600 a year I believe you have to file because of Social Security withholding. So yeah if you make under $600 a year that would be considered low-income. That's basically considered no income
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You're way off.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hrblock.com/tax-center/income/other-income/how-much-do-you-have-to-make-to-file-taxes/amp/
link to original post
Expect Evenbob reply:
"I don't care"
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
