Bellagion Robbery! $1.5 -$2 million in chips stolen
Quote: WizardI would agree that letting the robber go was preferable to getting into a gunfight in the casino. However, I disagree on the value of the chips. I would roughly estimate that about $25,000 get successfully presented.
Letting the guy go makes some sense. You don't want any patrons getting caught in a crossfire. That would be a lawsuit for negligence and wreckless endangerment waiting to happen. However, I'm still surprised that he managed to escape. I can only imagine a mob like security guard taking him down inside or outside the casino without hesitation. Old vegas style or any of the scenes from Ocean 11. Anyone remember the scene where the security uses his nightstick and knocks the assailant down or the shootout outside the casino?
The question is, how good are the staff at logging in and out each and every chip, each and every time they come in and out the cage?
Would they know for sure which numbers were taken? Whatever the truth, the official story will be that they know exactly which chips were taken.
To me, most of casino security is the aura of security, rather than actual security. So the fact that someone could break in and steal something and walk right out goes counter to that aura, but really quite easy to pull off. For the casino to have real security and guards standing around ready to pounce would intimidate players and is not good for business. And now we are inventing tracking systems and private armed forces of the casino going after the guy. That is also a farce. In reality, the casino will do what most other business do after a robbery, which is to collect insurance and move on and not worry about it.
Quote: austintxTo me, most of casino security is the aura of security, rather than actual security. So the fact that someone could break in and steal something and walk right out goes counter to that aura, but really quite easy to pull off. For the casino to have real security and guards standing around ready to pounce would intimidate players and is not good for business. And now we are inventing tracking systems and private armed forces of the casino going after the guy. That is also a farce. In reality, the casino will do what most other business do after a robbery, which is to collect insurance and move on and not worry about it.
I don't agree that security is just an aura. I think significant resouces are used to protect the most critical areas of the casino (e.g., the counting room, the drop box collection, cash in and out of the building and gambling instruments like dice and cards). Where the casino would really be hurt would be to lose cash, so it has been my observation that they do a lot to protect it, including the use of armed security on a crowded floor.
I recall walking into Bellagio shortly after it opened, and being amazed that the cashier did not have a cage. It was just an extra wide, open counter. At the time I was strolling past, a cashier was counting a large stack of cash as if nothing special needed to be done to protect them. I was pretty amazed. A short time later, I read that the cage had been robbed by someone who just jumped over the counter and grabbed whatever they could before running off. The next time I walked through there, all the cashier areas had cages.
This type of intrusion should lead to a change. The report I heard, was that it was a table in the Poker Room that got held up. What if several patron's chips were taken? Would the casino make them whole? How would they know how big each person's loss was, especially in a poker room?
Quote: AyecarumbaThe report I heard, was that it was a table in the Poker Room that got held up. What if several patron's chips were taken? Would the casino make them whole? How would they know how big each person's loss was, especially in a poker room?
I'm doubting that a casino would replace a customer's stolen chips, or cash -- except when they felt like it was good business to do so in a particular case.
Although, such could lead to a different twist in trying to rob a casino. That is, if you could conspire with some patrons to come in and rob them knowing that the casino is going to reimburse them --- then you all split the take, but since you still have their money, you have your profit there.
Don't think you could count on anything for sure there, so I doubt it would be worth even trying. (for whatever it's worth going to prison or being killed even)
Here is a link to a summary. There was also an article in the LVRJ. I don't know if these guys were ever caught.
Quote: WizardofEnglandI'm guessing on what I know about RFID tech, but I believe each chip would be identified individually, and each unique number is then assigned a value, such as $25 or $25k
The question is, how good are the staff at logging in and out each and every chip, each and every time they come in and out the cage?
Would they know for sure which numbers were taken? Whatever the truth, the official story will be that they know exactly which chips were taken.
I know a bit about RFID and at least one RFID chip maker says inventories can be done "nearly instantly", so they probably know exactly what is missing.
RFID scanners can also be mounted in various locations, including doorways and at least some of the chips can be read from up to 3 meters. So it may be possible that as the robber ran out the door they got the full inventory of what he had. Following it one step further, if he or someone else walks back in with one they'll know that too.
(a bonehead solution to a boneheaded robbery)
Security is often an aura of non-visibility, sports jacketed personnel with little but radios or the like. However, a lot of background activity takes place. Patrols of parking lots, casino patrols, armed escorts for critical functions, etc. do take place.
It is said that Willie Sutton when asked why he robbed banks, replied to the reporter with the simple comment: Because thats where the money is. As to robbing casinos a modern-day Willie Sutton might say: Because thats where there are chips and cash and everyone is in a festive mood, half-sloshed and focused intently on other activities than protecting their money.
I don't know why neither security nor surveillance spotted a helmeted person on the casino floor. That should have been an instant flag. And an instant response at the perimeter exits.
Most casinos now have cashier windows with rather formidable barriers to physical entry or to the ability to extend a weapon into the cage and aim it laterally. Subterranean security procedures are formidable because of the concentration of material from the count rooms much of which must be stored on-site for a designated period of time. Access is through a series of unmarked or deceptively marked doorways and most entry is from the corridor into a man-trap rather than the room itself.
A casino is a festive location and the casino hopes to at all times be crowded. Its not a place for gun play, particularly by guards who probably haven't kept up their marksmanship if they ever had any to begin with. However, off the casino floor guards are not always that hesitant to return gunfire in elevators and staircases or secluded hallways.
I recall one shooting incident at a Strip Casino wherein initial news reports named the casino and later news reports said that the incident took place "at a Las Vegas casino". Public relations plays a role in everything, I guess.
Quote: WizardofEnglandI'm guessing on what I know about RFID tech, but I believe each chip would be identified individually, and each unique number is then assigned a value, such as $25 or $25k
The question is, how good are the staff at logging in and out each and every chip, each and every time they come in and out the cage?
Would they know for sure which numbers were taken? Whatever the truth, the official story will be that they know exactly which chips were taken.
Would they have to be good at logging stuff in and out? If the RFID chips are not recognized when the cashout is made, they could still get the bandits using the videotape, couldn't they?
Quote: WizardofEnglandI'm guessing on what I know about RFID tech, but I believe each chip would be identified individually, and each unique number is then assigned a value, such as $25 or $25k
The question is, how good are the staff at logging in and out each and every chip, each and every time they come in and out the cage?
Would they know for sure which numbers were taken? Whatever the truth, the official story will be that they know exactly which chips were taken.
The staff doesn't do it - the RFID system does. That's the whole point. Here's an updated article describing how the chips were deactivated and are now worthless.
Quote: FleaStiffI won't name the casino but one major casino had a shooting incident several years ago wherein multiple suspects and multiple guards exchanged gunfire and not one single solitary guard was able to land a shot anywhere near what he was aiming at. The review of the incident and the film of the incident is said to have lead the casino to disarm its guards for a few years.
Harrah's Laughlin
Quote: FleaStiffI recall one shooting incident at a Strip Casino wherein initial news reports named the casino and later news reports said that the incident took place "at a Las Vegas casino". Public relations plays a role in everything, I guess.
MGM
Quote: FleaStiffI don't know why neither security nor surveillance spotted a helmeted person on the casino floor. That should have been an instant flag. And an instant response at the perimeter exits.
Casino security suffers the same fate as other 24 hour security anywhere -- whereas, if you have a brief transaction with a limited time frame, you can usually count on a pretty good reaction. Once you've got them in the "wait around until something happens" mode, people doing shift work have the same lapses as anyone else watching paint dry would. Plus, they take breaks, eat lunches, probably chat up some attractive patron without any official purpose in mind (I've witnessed that one personally). And just because there's a camera, doesn't mean someone has their eye on a screen 24/7 either.
Counterfeit money is "sold" amongst criminals at a very steep discount, but stolen chips must surely be virtually worthless particularly if the headlines indicate RFID tags are contained inside them.
Quote: FleaStiff
Counterfeit money is "sold" amongst criminals at a very steep discount, but stolen chips must surely be virtually worthless
Maybe he can dump them on Ebay, but they'll catch him if he tries. Its all the big denom chips, its like he robbed a bank and got a bag full of nickels. Worthless..
Quote: FleaStiffMajor robberies of chips are one of the reasons Nevada Regulations require that each casino have two sets of chips and that they be separate and distinct from each other at a mere glance.
So does that mean the entire line of Bellagio chips is now out of commission, not just the specific ones that were stolen? It's too bad if so, because I know there are pretty strict procedures for chip destruction, but I'd love to have a souvenir worthless $25,000 chip from the Bellagio (that wasn't obtained by theft, that is).
Quote: darkozCan't the reporter who had the $5000 chip confiscated at the MGM sue in small claims court?
I doubt it. I'm pretty sure the Gaming regulations say:
1. The chips are only to be used for gaming purposes, and not for exchanging between players.
Quote: Regulation 12.060.2(d)A licensee that uses chips or tokens at its gaming establishment shall...Post conspicuous signs at its establishment notifying patrons that federal law prohibits the use of the licensee’s tokens, that state law prohibits the use of the licensee’s chips, outside the Regulation 12, Chips and Tokens Page 4 establishment for any monetary purpose whatever, and that the chips and tokens issued by the licensee are the property of the licensee, only;
2. Chips may only be redeemed if obtained from playing at the tables. The casinos have every right to verify this.
Quote: Regulation 12.060.4A licensee shall not redeem its chips or tokens if presented by a person who the licensee knows or reasonably should know is not a patron of its gaming establishment, ...
3. The chips are technically casino property.
Quote: Regulation 12.060.1Chips and tokens are solely representatives of value which evidence a debt owed to their custodian by the licensee that issued them and are not the property of anyone other than that licensee.
Link to chapter 12 regulations.
Anyway, let's say for example that the robber is sitting on 2.5 million of RFID chips. How to cash them? They are absolutely worthless at the cage because the reader would mark them and he'd get caught.
What about doing a check change at a craps table where the RFIDs aren't installed. The chips wouldn't then be discovered until they were taken by security. I doubt that all of the tables would have an RFID reader installed to know that the chips are worthless. So, say, checking a purple chip might not get noticed.
I've looked on other forums and the 2+2 forum is reporting that the Bellagio Hosts are calling people asking them to get their 25K chips (cranberries) back.
I'm guessing that the 25Ks will be worthless but any demonination at 1K might be safe. Perhaps if he plays thems/launders them over a year he'll be okay, but criminals are dumb.
I've no idea what the Bellagio has actually done, I only know what the Gaming regs require them to be able to do. I would see no reason to switch any chips other than the denomination that was stolen. They will still say Bellagio on them but they will be markedly different, if the second set was switched in. Its Bellagio's decision, the regs only require that casinos have two full sets of chips on the premises, one of course is kept in the vault or something. The regs are in force mainly to allow a casino to do a complete switch but not to require them to do it. I think the idea is that even if you switch only the stolen denomination you have the ability to get identification from anyone turning them in. At the end of World War Two France called in all its Old Francs and issued New Francs, but anyone who turned in a large amount of currency would be investigated as a potential wartime black marketeer and potential collaborator. At the time, French women who had fraternized with German soldiers were having their heads publicly shaved. French males who were thought to have collaborated were receiving a gift of a free bullet from former resistance fighters. This may have inhibited people from turning in all those ill gotten gains.Quote: MathExtremistSo does that mean the entire line of Bellagio chips is now out of commission, not just the specific ones that were stolen?
Imagine the casino manager walking back into the casino slightly out of breath after trying to chase the guy on the motorcycle, ordering the RFID tag numbers of the stolen chips, then realising that the chips were already back in the cage.....
Quote: IbeatyouracesMGM Detroit's $1000 and $5000 chips do not have this technology. They are as standard as the $1 and $5 chips except they are oversized.
How do you know this?
I thought the original purposes of RFID was for player tracking and to prevent cheating. I believe they can read the chips at the tables.
A few thoughts:
1) It is urban legend (perpetuated by stupid casino signs) that you can't change chips at other casinos. Bellagio chips, even $25k Bellagio chips, are good money at every casino in Vegas. They will just need an ID and to verify you don't owe Bellagio any markers. If you are a known player at the casino you are trying to exchange chips at, this process takes about 5 minutes or less.
2) I understand the chips are RFID tagged but I am not at all convinced that the Bellagio knows WHICH chips were stolen. They can, perhaps, quickly inventory all $25k chips they have in their possession and put a flag/warning on all the other ones. But I don't think they can just automatically deactivate/flag the exact chips stolen. I think that articles/statements to the contrary are bullshit.
3) I think this guy could get value for those chips if he sold them to someone that was a known high limit player at Bellagio. If you have a track record at Bellagio and stroll in with those chips, I think you get paid.
4) All cashouts under $3000 happen without significant ID checks, so the yellows and below are easily changed to cash IMO.
IF the checks had RFID chips the casino knows every one that was at the table and everyone that after the robbery was not at the table.
Chips would have to be passed really fast ... and probably were or else the guy was an idiot.
A known big player had better not get involved in passing them or he will get known for a different reason at every casino in town, even if it can't be proven.
Quote: mkdcHas anyone actually verified that the Bellagio changed all their chips. I seriously doubt that -- just seems like a big deal for $1m or so, considering they normally change about every 5-10 years or so (if that often).
A few thoughts:
1) It is urban legend (perpetuated by stupid casino signs) that you can't change chips at other casinos. Bellagio chips, even $25k Bellagio chips, are good money at every casino in Vegas. They will just need an ID and to verify you don't owe Bellagio any markers. If you are a known player at the casino you are trying to exchange chips at, this process takes about 5 minutes or less.
2) I understand the chips are RFID tagged but I am not at all convinced that the Bellagio knows WHICH chips were stolen. They can, perhaps, quickly inventory all $25k chips they have in their possession and put a flag/warning on all the other ones. But I don't think they can just automatically deactivate/flag the exact chips stolen. I think that articles/statements to the contrary are bullshit.
3) I think this guy could get value for those chips if he sold them to someone that was a known high limit player at Bellagio. If you have a track record at Bellagio and stroll in with those chips, I think you get paid.
4) All cashouts under $3000 happen without significant ID checks, so the yellows and below are easily changed to cash IMO.
I think this line of thinking hits the robber's only real possible paths to profit--the biggest risk the Bellagio sees in this robbery is that they turn down someone who is legitimately trying to cash in old chips for whatever reason (forgot to cash them last time they left Vegas or whatever). The casino can probably take care of most of it by simply requesting ID from anyone trying to cash the now-discontinued design of chips, and watching for suspiciously large transactions, but they're not going to start rejecting people's cash-ins left and right, or hauling people to the police for cashing in chips, for fear of the bad publicity. Even if Bellagio was able to cancel the RFID tags in the old set of chips, I'd be quite sure that the casino did not have knowledge of the exact serial number chips that were sitting at the particular table that got robbed.
Casino War.
Even if they saw him playing it they might just let him play the stack. It would be quicker than calling the cops.
The stolen money itself means nothing to MGM shareholders, as they are way more worried about the multiple percentage points up and down each day due to regular market forces in the stock market.
Before this story broke, MGM's market cap was 6.222 billion dollars. Now, four trading days later their market cap is 7.110 billion dollars.
So do you think they care more about 1.5 million disappearing on Wednesday, or 888 million appearing the following four days? 888 is very lucky methinks to some people in a certain country.
I'm not saying the publicity caused the market to buy up shares and/or that the Chinese set this up as an insider trading scheme. I'm just saying "it doesn't matter" .. except for the publicity, and the public has totally eaten up this story even more than the Cosmopolitan opening.
I went to google news and typed in "bellagio vegas" between December 15th and today compared to "cosmopolitan vegas" for the same time period (using advanced searching options). The results:
About 600 new stories on cosmopolitan vegas in that time frame
About 1400 news stories on bellagio vegas in the same time frame
If Bellagio lost 1.5 million to get all that news, how much do you think Cosmo spent to get less than half the coverage. Let's not even talk about the whole foreclosed property etc .. just marketing...
Oh well. Anyway, just a thought to add to the mix.
Quote: aahighThis whole thing has the hallmarks of a publicity stunt, and if there were a financial impact on MGM, it was positive. 1.5 million is 0.02% or 1/4666th the market cap of MGM (the publicly traded company that owns Bellagio)...............................
Oh well. Anyway, just a thought to add to the mix.
So, am I to infer that you think the reason why there was no security chase, was because Bellagio was in on it? I'm not calling you out, or asking you to defend that position, I'd like to go in another direction....
Let's assume for a minute that were true. How many laws would a stunt like that break?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/3817-a-foolproof-method-for-robbing-a-casino/
I have not played there in about five years, and even then it was only for an hour or two. So it will be a hard sell that I got these at the tables. At least it will make for a good story when I go there and try to cash them. I'll keep you posted.
Quote: KeyserTo say that this chip robber has pissed off poker players and AP players is a gross understatement.
If they refuse these chips, you can add me to that list as well.
Quote: WizardOh, for crying out loud, look at what I just found in my drawer.
If they refuse these chips, you can add me to that list as well.
But are those chips now different from the ones they're presently using? If not, you should have no problem. If so, they'll tag you as the "Really Dense Bandit" who five years ago rushed up to a blackjack table, grabbed a couple of handfuls of the lowest denomination chips, and sprinted for the exit, and security will grab you and take you down to the Players We Don't Like Detention Facility in the basement.
Quote: WizardOh, for crying out loud, look at what I just found in my drawer.
I don't expect that you will have any problems Wizard. Just be sure to leave the motorcycle helmet at home.
Quote: mkl654321But are those chips now different from the ones they're presently using?
Yes, they are different. These should be the same style that was stolen in the robbery. After the robbery they switched to a style they had sitting in the vault for such occasions. The only thing that works in my favor is it is $105 only. For all they know, I'm fencing these chips for the real robber.
Quote: WizardFor all they know, I'm fencing these chips for the real robber.
Hehe, one down, only 1.6M more transactions to go...
Quote: AyecarumbaHehe, one down, only 1.6M more transactions to go...
They might start with small transactions to feel the waters, and keep getting higher until the heat becomes too much. Who knows, maybe I'm in on it.
Quote: WizardThey might start with small transactions to feel the waters, and keep getting higher until the heat becomes too much. Who knows, maybe I'm in on it.
I recall that there is a line in the gaming regulations, requiring casinos to honor chips presented by other casinos. Also, I thought the casinos were required to post a notice giving 120 days to redeem old style chips. Perhaps you should try to change a couple at the Venetian or the Wynn, just to see what they do.
I'm looking forward to hearing how this goes, and if the cage at Bellagio is willing to share any info on the volume of old chips coming back in.
Quote: AyecarumbaI recall that there is a line in the gaming regulations, requiring casinos to honor chips presented by other casinos.
I don't think so. It is optional. If they choose to accept them there are certain protocols about redeeming them at the correct casino. I've had casinos refuse to honor other casinos chips a few times.
Quote: AyecarumbaAlso, I thought the casinos were required to post a notice giving 120 days to redeem old style chips.
Yes, there is some legal notice required; I don't know how long. However, casinos can refuse to honor legitimate chips if they deem them coming from somebody who isn't a customer. As I wrote about in my last Ask the Wizard column, they can even seize such suspicious chips.
Quote: WizardOh, for crying out loud, look at what I just found in my drawer.
I have some Bellagio chips from when they opened, and they do not look like that. They look like this:
(These are web images: I don't keep souvenir green chips...)
Also, it's a shame that Reg 12 requires the destruction of discontinued chips, though I understand why they do it. I'd pay a few bucks to have a souvenir of one of these:
Quote: MathExtremistI have some Bellagio chips from when they opened, and they do not look like that.
They must have changed the style at some point since opening. Perhaps when they went to RFID chips.
The only Bellagio chip that I have is the one in my collection of $1 chips. It is the same design as the $5 and $25 chips that MathExtremist displayed, except with a blue rim and the lower denomination. I picked it up in 2003.Quote: MathExtremistI have some Bellagio chips from when they opened, and they do not look like that. ...
Is there some kind of public record of what chip styles are in use and when a casino converts to a different style?
Quote: WizardThey must have changed the style at some point since opening. Perhaps when they went to RFID chips.
Take your new trophy with you, they can't refuse you then.
Quote: WizardI don't think so. It is optional. If they choose to accept them there are certain protocols about redeeming them at the correct casino. I've had casinos refuse to honor other casinos chips a few times.
As an interesting side note, casinos in Missouri are expressly forbidden from accepting any chips other then their own, according to 11 C.S.R. 45-5.130 (6). I only know that because there's always signs around the cages announcing this fact.
Sorry, you all can return to the main topic now :-P
