darkoz
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May 4th, 2021 at 10:03:31 AM permalink
One of the most famous judgements without a physical assault is the Chicago nickel judgement.

An elderly woman cashed out a nickel from a slot machine. (literally a nickel). She was surrounded, backroomed, ejected from the property and refused to be allowed to even catch her return bus from the Casino bus tour group location.

Her judgement was $875,000.05. The extra nickel was the juries message to the casino obviously.

It got reduced on appeal but was still mid six figures.

https://www.lawcrossing.com/article/1761/Gambling-with-Casino-s-nickel-and-the-big-prize-winning-judgement/
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MDawg
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May 4th, 2021 at 10:25:21 AM permalink
If you had brought this case to me, I would have listened patiently then gotten right to the core of the matter by explaining that even though you may have a righteous claim, that you had bloody hands by virtue of your manipulating the casino's system with handfuls of player cards that didn't belong to you. I would have asked if you intend to continue with this sort of thing, and then asked why you would want to put yourself out there like that if you were going to continue to live in a glass house.

In a case like this, if I did take it, I would have sent the client to a psychologist to establish that he was traumatized by the incident.

In your case, you weren't affected whatsoever, you went right back to the casinos to continue to do the same thing. If anything, you just wanted to establish that it was okay to continue doing the same thing. No jury would buy into that sort of thing, and any attorney familiar with casinos and gaming would have known that.

But...if you shop a loser case around enough, sometimes you will find an attorney willing to take it. And the expert witnesses on both sides who get paid in cash have no problem with these types of cases either.

I'd say that your getting this attorney to take the case was as much a function of her lack of knowledge about what she was in for, as a testament to your ability to sell yourself.

It is not significant that the case made it to trial...that was just the judge stating that as a matter of law, yes, this should go to the jury - that there were triable issues of fact. Didn't mean you had a winner.

I would advise against proceeding with your next lawsuit if it is anything along these same lines.
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MrV
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May 4th, 2021 at 10:37:27 AM permalink
As there seems to be no mention of your lawsuit online it seems you chose not to file an appeal, as appellate decisions are typically published and found via google search, but trials are unpublished and remain in the dark.

Why didn't you file an appeal?

Not saying you should have, just wondering what the reasoning was.
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darkoz
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May 4th, 2021 at 10:48:05 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

As there seems to be no mention of your lawsuit online it seems you chose not to file an appeal, as appellate decisions are typically published and found via google search, but trials are unpublished and remain in the dark.

Why didn't you file an appeal?

Not saying you should have, just wondering what the reasoning was.



There were a few reasons.

One the appeal would have been out of pocket. My attorney made it clear her agreement in handling the case for judgement as her only pay did not include appeals.

Secondly, there was a second similar case involving my Casino partner who was also backroomed and had a separate upcoming trial and yes using this same attorney. It really wasn't about the money for me but about not having my rights trampled. Too many people on here can't imagine someone who isn't dog hungry for cash. But I was perfectly content with having my business partner go and hopefully, having learned what to expect, prevail in his own trial.

Unfortunately Covid then happened and my Casino buddy passed away from Covid complications.

It was this second trial coming up that I hesitated discussion of this but that's not going to happen now.
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JohnnyQ
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May 4th, 2021 at 10:58:58 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

One of the most famous judgements without a physical assault is the Chicago nickel judgement.

No reason to keep the name of the Casino under wraps, is there ? MotorCity Casino in Detroit .
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DRich
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May 4th, 2021 at 1:09:39 PM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

No reason to keep the name of the Casino under wraps, is there ? MotorCity Casino in Detroit .



I really doubt it was in Michigan when the Wizard was staying near JFK airport.
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darkoz
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May 4th, 2021 at 1:18:04 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

I really doubt it was in Michigan when the Wizard was staying near JFK airport.



Ugghhh!

Good example of how threads and posts lead to confusion.

The lawsuit I was involved in was Resorts World in NYC.

I think it was you DRich that said you would be shocked at any six figures award for a non-violent backroomed situation.

I mentioned the casino case in which $875,000 was awarded for a non-violent backroomed situation.

It was pointed out this was at Motor City Casino said case back in 2001.

Hope that clears the confusion
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MrV
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May 4th, 2021 at 2:15:36 PM permalink
I can certainly understand why RW fought tooth and claw, as there is little if any precedent in NY for cases of this type.

In LV guys like Bob N. have beaten a path to a payday but the east coast casinos want to avoid or delay this as long as possible.

Once the word is out via example that they can be successfully sued in NY then the mini-floodgates of litigation may open, causing the casinos some expensive paydays.

DO, not knocking your attorney but good grief man, she never tried a case of this type before?

Obviously she was outmatched: it happens ... a lot.
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JohnnyQ
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May 4th, 2021 at 3:26:13 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

I really doubt it was in Michigan when the Wizard was staying near JFK airport.

OK, I guess I should have used the quote thingie to point out what I was referring to. Oh wait, I did.

BUT yes, I agree it can be confusing jumping around a bit. DARKOZ jumped first.

Anyhows, I was referring to this:

Quote: darkoz

One of the most famous judgements without a physical assault is the Chicago nickel judgement.

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Hunterhill
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May 4th, 2021 at 3:29:22 PM permalink
I know Maryland casinos have been sued successfully for backrooomings.
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Wizard
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May 4th, 2021 at 3:40:31 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

I can certainly understand why RW fought tooth and claw, as there is little if any precedent in NY for cases of this type.



Good for darkoz for taking one for the team. This first attempt to keep the casinos of New York honest didn't work out, but it at least shows that casinos can be sued. Eventually an attorney in New York will find his niche as a player advocate in such cases. Rome wasn't built in a day, but darkoz and his attorney at least started construction.
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TomG
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May 4th, 2021 at 5:02:55 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

I doubt it would have changed much, but the correct answer is “no”. I assume you said “yes”.

Yeah, you edited it, but you didn’t keep what you felt was relevant. You kept what the defense agreed was relevant.



This was one of my first thoughts too.

Great story to hear. Crappy outcome. I give DO credit for stepping up and fighting back against this type stuff.
100xOdds
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May 5th, 2021 at 12:28:10 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

I know Maryland casinos have been sued successfully for backrooomings.

link?
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darkoz
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May 5th, 2021 at 12:44:05 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

link?



https://bj21.com/category/patron-abuse/pages/maryland-police-officers-settle-with-falsely-imprisoned-card-counter
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100xOdds
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May 5th, 2021 at 1:09:49 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

For those who claim this was a weak case I disagree.

For one thing this basis is made without having seen the surveillance footage. The Wizard saw the footage.
Perhaps he can chime in but I recall he was surprised at what the Casino thought they were allowed to do.

Motion to suppress the surveillance tapes also caused a fight for years and eventually resorts world lost that as well (although with the caveat that I could not show the surveillance footage or post on any website)

Why arent you allowed to mention details about the footage but the Wiz is?
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SOOPOO
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May 5th, 2021 at 1:27:20 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: darkoz

For those who claim this was a weak case I disagree.

For one thing this basis is made without having seen the surveillance footage. The Wizard saw the footage.
Perhaps he can chime in but I recall he was surprised at what the Casino thought they were allowed to do.

Motion to suppress the surveillance tapes also caused a fight for years and eventually resorts world lost that as well (although with the caveat that I could not show the surveillance footage or post on any website)

Why arent you allowed to mention details about the footage but the Wiz is?




Another bizarre term. Your lawyer actually had you do some sort of non disclosure type deal WITHOUT you getting a settlement? Come on!
darkoz
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May 5th, 2021 at 2:13:42 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: darkoz

For those who claim this was a weak case I disagree.

For one thing this basis is made without having seen the surveillance footage. The Wizard saw the footage.
Perhaps he can chime in but I recall he was surprised at what the Casino thought they were allowed to do.

Motion to suppress the surveillance tapes also caused a fight for years and eventually resorts world lost that as well (although with the caveat that I could not show the surveillance footage or post on any website)

Why arent you allowed to mention details about the footage but the Wiz is?



I can discuss what is on the surveillance as well as Wizard. Neither of us can post it physically for all to see.

I suppose I could and be damned but they could try to take me to court then. Who knows if they would.

It went like this.

From 2014 till 2017 they refused to hand over the surveillance tapes claiming it would weaken their surveillance in the future by disclosure of some of their practices. It sounded ridiculous to me but the judge wasn't totally unswayed.

It was three years in and no one even knew yet how much I was telling truthfully about the backroom incident

The judge finally ordered the handing over of the surveillance if it was agreed no one on my end would ever post the tape on any website, YouTube, etc.

The judge felt this would satisfy the concerns of the Casino and deliver the footage we needed.

I actually argued with my attorney we should not be forced into a non-disclosure and she told the judge her client felt it wasn't a term of any similar lawsuit but the judge point blank asked if her client wasn't amenable then was it because he planned to post the footage?

Of course she replied no, and the judge said then there should be no problem with the agreement.

Without the footage there was no case.

What would you have done?
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SOOPOO
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May 5th, 2021 at 5:59:37 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: darkoz

For those who claim this was a weak case I disagree.

For one thing this basis is made without having seen the surveillance footage. The Wizard saw the footage.
Perhaps he can chime in but I recall he was surprised at what the Casino thought they were allowed to do.

Motion to suppress the surveillance tapes also caused a fight for years and eventually resorts world lost that as well (although with the caveat that I could not show the surveillance footage or post on any website)

Why arent you allowed to mention details about the footage but the Wiz is?



I can discuss what is on the surveillance as well as Wizard. Neither of us can post it physically for all to see.

I suppose I could and be damned but they could try to take me to court then. Who knows if they would.

It went like this.

From 2014 till 2017 they refused to hand over the surveillance tapes claiming it would weaken their surveillance in the future by disclosure of some of their practices. It sounded ridiculous to me but the judge wasn't totally unswayed.

It was three years in and no one even knew yet how much I was telling truthfully about the backroom incident

The judge finally ordered the handing over of the surveillance if it was agreed no one on my end would ever post the tape on any website, YouTube, etc.

The judge felt this would satisfy the concerns of the Casino and deliver the footage we needed.

I actually argued with my attorney we should not be forced into a non-disclosure and she told the judge her client felt it wasn't a term of any similar lawsuit but the judge point blank asked if her client wasn't amenable then was it because he planned to post the footage?

Of course she replied no, and the judge said then there should be no problem with the agreement.

Without the footage there was no case.

What would you have done?



Maybe I mis-read. I thought you were prohibited from even discussing what was in the video. I can see being prevented from exposing the actual video.
darkoz
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May 5th, 2021 at 6:35:13 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: darkoz

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: darkoz

For those who claim this was a weak case I disagree.

For one thing this basis is made without having seen the surveillance footage. The Wizard saw the footage.
Perhaps he can chime in but I recall he was surprised at what the Casino thought they were allowed to do.

Motion to suppress the surveillance tapes also caused a fight for years and eventually resorts world lost that as well (although with the caveat that I could not show the surveillance footage or post on any website)

Why arent you allowed to mention details about the footage but the Wiz is?



I can discuss what is on the surveillance as well as Wizard. Neither of us can post it physically for all to see.

I suppose I could and be damned but they could try to take me to court then. Who knows if they would.

It went like this.

From 2014 till 2017 they refused to hand over the surveillance tapes claiming it would weaken their surveillance in the future by disclosure of some of their practices. It sounded ridiculous to me but the judge wasn't totally unswayed.

It was three years in and no one even knew yet how much I was telling truthfully about the backroom incident

The judge finally ordered the handing over of the surveillance if it was agreed no one on my end would ever post the tape on any website, YouTube, etc.

The judge felt this would satisfy the concerns of the Casino and deliver the footage we needed.

I actually argued with my attorney we should not be forced into a non-disclosure and she told the judge her client felt it wasn't a term of any similar lawsuit but the judge point blank asked if her client wasn't amenable then was it because he planned to post the footage?

Of course she replied no, and the judge said then there should be no problem with the agreement.

Without the footage there was no case.

What would you have done?



Maybe I mis-read. I thought you were prohibited from even discussing what was in the video. I can see being prevented from exposing the actual video.



No I can describe what happens on the surveillance. I mean it was my own experience lol. I described pretty much in the OP what happened.

Surveillance followed me around as I played ECraps on different players cards. Eight security guards surrounded me, etc, etc.

The entire video is of me so anything I describe about my experience during the backrooming is me discussing what's on the surveillance footage.

I would prefer it be made public.

The Casino doesn't.

That should give you an idea of who really believes they were in the right or the wrong
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Wizard
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May 5th, 2021 at 8:41:59 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

Why arent you allowed to mention details about the footage but the Wiz is?



I never signed an NDA regarding that. If it's okay with darkoz, I'll take any questions on it.
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darkoz
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May 5th, 2021 at 9:02:33 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I never signed an NDA regarding that. If it's okay with darkoz, I'll take any questions on it.



To be clear the NDA simply says I cannot POST A COPY of the actual surveillance tapes onto public media.

I can answer questions and discuss whatever I want. I was physically there!

But I am interested in the Wizards thoughts on what he saw.

Thanks
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onenickelmiracle
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May 5th, 2021 at 11:54:35 PM permalink
It took me years to realize why the casino tries getting witnesses when they already have footage. They get a security manager or some other employee to witness what they already know, so they can leave the surveillance crew out of it and not expose who is working for them. If they just called police or whatnot, the police would need access to the surveillance room and its contents.
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Wizard
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May 6th, 2021 at 4:34:26 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

To be clear the NDA simply says I cannot POST A COPY of the actual surveillance tapes onto public media.

I can answer questions and discuss whatever I want. I was physically there!

But I am interested in the Wizards thoughts on what he saw.



One thing I'll add, which you know I've said privately, is that given the choice of the backroom or the police getting involved, I would have chosen the police. The police need a crime to arrest you. What happened with the player cards was entirely a civil matter, which the police are not supposed to get involved in. If security then threatens to take you by force to the backroom, then you have a better case for false detainment against them.
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darkoz
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May 6th, 2021 at 6:45:20 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

One thing I'll add, which you know I've said privately, is that given the choice of the backroom or the police getting involved, I would have chosen the police. The police need a crime to arrest you. What happened with the player cards was entirely a civil matter, which the police are not supposed to get involved in. If security then threatens to take you by force to the backroom, then you have a better case for false detainment against them.



Yes I could have called that bluff.

It should be remembered that this was 2014 and the big discussion on this forum and most gambling forums was civil forfeiture, I was just building up a sizable bankroll after being homeless, said bankroll close to ten thousand on my possession at that moment and no way to prove how I earned it (freeplay from player's cards in other people's names would have been a nice explanation to give police.)

And again, the head of security threatening to call the police was a former NYPD detective who even ran my ID through the database looking for warrants.

It seemed more wise at the moment not to get the police involved

EDIT: I should add it seems no matter what I did with the police involvement I am criticized.

"Aha, they called the police. The casino honestly thought you committed a crime or they would not have involved the police. They needed to detain you until officers arrived" would have been the logical argument used against me.

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100xOdds
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May 6th, 2021 at 7:00:57 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I was there to held explain to the jury gaming terminology in layman's terms. What player cards were for, how points worked, simple stuff like that.
To be honest, I had a difference in opinion with darkoz's attorney on strategy. I thought she should press aggressively that it was a false detainment case and keep the focus off darkoz. Instead, she had a more defensive strategy that showed darkoz was abiding not just by the law but didn't break any casino rules.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there wasn't a rule at the time forbidding using other player cards, although one was added because of this.

i would have thought you prove false detainment by showing that he didnt break any rules?
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darkoz
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May 6th, 2021 at 7:11:48 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

i would have thought you prove false detainment by showing that he didnt break any rules?



No that is incorrect.

False detainment is when you are held and didn't commit any crime.

Breaking a businesses rules is not breaking a law.

For example most business insist you wear shirt and shoes but taking your shoes off in public isn't a crime. You can't be arrested for it.

A business can ask you to leave (and refusal turns into the crime of trespassing)

However if you try to leave and they detain you, search your belongings, etc, just because you didn't have your shoes on and broke their rules, that would be actionable.

My attorney felt that distinction was too much for the jury (as evidenced we are discussing it here) and wanted to show the use of other players cards were not in the printed rules at the time. (They were later added).

Wizard and I both agreed the problem is cards with other people's names has the generic feel of at least breaking some rule. The argument should have been as I described above.

But she was working for no pay so I went with her advice. We don't know if it would have gone different in either case.
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billryan
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May 6th, 2021 at 8:44:03 AM permalink
Lawyers and escorts are two circumstances where you should never try and go cheap.
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onenickelmiracle
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May 6th, 2021 at 9:51:16 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Lawyers and escorts are two circumstances where you should never try and go cheap.


Some people just say things to make them look wise. I'd take a cheap lawyer and a cheap escort and make it work.
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May 6th, 2021 at 10:01:00 AM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

Some people just say things to make them look wise. I'd take a cheap lawyer and a cheap escort and make it work.



Our jails are full of people with the same sentiment.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
JohnnyQ
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May 6th, 2021 at 10:17:44 AM permalink
Cheap jails ?
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darkoz
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May 6th, 2021 at 10:21:05 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Our jails are full of people with the same sentiment.



Martha Stewart, OJ, Bernie Madoff all had expensive lawyers.
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onenickelmiracle
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May 6th, 2021 at 10:25:04 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Our jails are full of people with the same sentiment.

I'm too pretty.
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May 6th, 2021 at 10:50:49 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Martha Stewart, OJ, Bernie Madoff all had expensive lawyers.

Expensive lawyers are good when a small fraction of someone's worth where the cost is just a mild nuisance. I think all 3 of these people benefited from their lawyers certainly. Someone middle class, needing the lawyers of the ultra rich and celebrities, they might as well kill themselves or run to Mexico.
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May 6th, 2021 at 11:32:19 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Martha Stewart, OJ, Bernie Madoff all had expensive lawyers.

OJ's expensive lawyers got him off. His less expensive lawyer got him convicted of robbery.

I firmly believe that the robbery conviction was a "make-up call."
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May 6th, 2021 at 2:11:40 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Martha Stewart, OJ, Bernie Madoff all had expensive lawyers.



Johnny Cochran and company were successful.
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May 6th, 2021 at 2:37:13 PM permalink
https://www.casino.org/news/gambler-claims-resorts-world-new-york-city-falsely-accused-him-damage/

I find this very interesting as well. Seems that place loves to detain people.

Funny WoO's website is cited in the article as well.
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May 6th, 2021 at 2:56:19 PM permalink
Quote: mwalz9

Funny WoO's website is cited in the article as well.



What are the odds? ;-)
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onenickelmiracle
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May 6th, 2021 at 3:35:02 PM permalink
The allegations against Resorts by the man in the article, the casino actions were pretty severely, low classed and totally greasy as Bubbles would say. First, try forcing him to pay then having him arrested, then forcing him to pay and refusing to cash his tickets if he didn't. Lately I've been thinking they should have the numbers posted to text like in NFL games if you're being harassed in a casino by a patron or by the casino.
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darkoz
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May 6th, 2021 at 4:23:15 PM permalink
The funny thing is he could have just waited 45 days which is when the money switches from the racino to the NYS lottery.

After 45 days you no longer can cash out at the racino. Instead you have to go to a separate NYS lottery office to get your money.

I had flagged vouchers that they wouldn't cash and I still got my money by going to the NYS lottery office two months later. They have no ability to refuse a properly offered voucher for redeeming after 45 days
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billryan
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May 6th, 2021 at 7:15:01 PM permalink
Quote: mwalz9

https://www.casino.org/news/gambler-claims-resorts-world-new-york-city-falsely-accused-him-damage/

I find this very interesting as well. Seems that place loves to detain people.

Funny WoO's website is cited in the article as well.



I notice the case was filed in the Bronx, which is well known for its jury handing out jackpots.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
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