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billryan
billryan
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May 27th, 2021 at 5:55:32 PM permalink
Grading companies have ridiculous turnaround times right now, as everyone is sending cards in. Several companies are simply not accepting submissions., and another just announced they accepted a single 50,000 card collection to be graded.
I get offered more than I can deal with and keep having to remind myself that I'm supposed to be retired.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
billryan
billryan
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May 27th, 2021 at 6:08:25 PM permalink
When looking at vintage cards, you want to look for creases. Then you want to look at the corners. Top cards have four sharp corners.
Then you have to look at the centering. The vast majority of cards from before 1986 have terrible centering. You want 50-50 but most will be 60-40 at best. You need to check all margins, top, bottom, sides and back. A 1971 Nolan Ryan that grades a 8 is worth about $500 but one that scores a nine is $1500 and a 10 might bring in $10,000.
Many people will have a card they think is near perfect but will only score a 7 or an 8. Another thing you need worry about with expensive cards is the ease in which one can trim a card. Take a card that is 60-40 on the border. Shave a bit off one side and now its 55-45 or 50-50. It is possible for mechanics to alter the cards on a molecular basis by manipulating cards with heat.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
DRich
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May 27th, 2021 at 6:35:15 PM permalink
Bill is absolutely correct. If the card is centered and the corners are perfect and no visible defects it will probably grade at least a 7.
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AxelWolf
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May 28th, 2021 at 4:36:23 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

When looking at vintage cards, you want to look for creases. Then you want to look at the corners. Top cards have four sharp corners.
Then you have to look at the centering. The vast majority of cards from before 1986 have terrible centering. You want 50-50 but most will be 60-40 at best. You need to check all margins, top, bottom, sides and back. A 1971 Nolan Ryan that grades a 8 is worth about $500 but one that scores a nine is $1500 and a 10 might bring in $10,000.
Many people will have a card they think is near perfect but will only score a 7 or an 8. Another thing you need worry about with expensive cards is the ease in which one can trim a card. Take a card that is 60-40 on the border. Shave a bit off one side and now its 55-45 or 50-50. It is possible for mechanics to alter the cards on a molecular basis by manipulating cards with heat.

I'm not buying cards, so I'm not concerned about trimming or altered cards. It's highly unlikely any of the cards I have had been trimmed or altered.

I know the basic grading concepts, I'm talking about the things that are not so obvious. like, what's really the difference between a 9 and a 10 when it comes to the same card? I take it that's just a grader's judgment. i have heard about people getting a lower than expected grade and then resubmitting the same card and they end up getting a better or worst grade.

I also don't understand how the grading prices really work, I guess you pay whatever tier level on what you think your cards will grade at? Do you pay before or after? what happens if you make a big mistake and your card grades 3 levels lower or higher than your estimate? or perhaps that can't happen because they will never grade something much better than you have paid for?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
billryan
billryan
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May 28th, 2021 at 6:34:17 AM permalink
you give them a credit card when you submit cards. They will charge you initially based on your lists. If you put a card on your list that is worth much more than you said, they will adjust your bill upwards and not release it until it is paid. If you say a card is worth $200 and it ends up being worth $1,000 you will receive an upcharge.
Here is the thing, though. If you list your card as being worth $200, that is all the insurance the card has. You can't put in a $1,000 claim on a card you listed for $200.
All the grading companies are desperate for new employees. Beckett just hired some 200 people . If they are lucky, 50 of them will be fully trained and able to start grading in six months.
The future of grading is in technology. A machine can examine the card down to the smallest pixel and can detect alterations that humans will miss.
There is a youtube video of a potential seller offering a card to a number of dealers. The dealers all gave it a clean bill of health and were prepared to make an offer on it. Then they are shown the card imaged on a scanner that blows every pixel up 100X and you could see where several small creases had been repainted.
A human can grade 50-75 cards an hour. This machine can do 50 cards a minute.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
billryan
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May 28th, 2021 at 6:44:49 AM permalink
Any sort of stain on a card will kill its grade, and some cards show fingerprints much more than other cards.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
jmills
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May 29th, 2021 at 4:26:52 PM permalink
That degree of perfectionism makes collecting baseball cards and comics sound dire. I collect records, and while there is grading involved, it's a lot looser. Of course even the top collectible records top out at less than $10,000, except for a few outliers.
billryan
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May 29th, 2021 at 7:04:19 PM permalink
Quote: jmills

That degree of perfectionism makes collecting baseball cards and comics sound dire. I collect records, and while there is grading involved, it's a lot looser. Of course even the top collectible records top out at less than $10,000, except for a few outliers.



I can see a graded and slabbed record market emerging if only to protect against knockoffs.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
billryan
billryan
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May 29th, 2021 at 7:32:26 PM permalink
Quote: jmills

That degree of perfectionism makes collecting baseball cards and comics sound dire. I collect records, and while there is grading involved, it's a lot looser. Of course even the top collectible records top out at less than $10,000, except for a few outliers.



To be clear, we are pretty much talking the top 3% of the market. The majority of cards and comics lose most of their value as soon as you buy them.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
jmills
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May 30th, 2021 at 8:13:31 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

I can see a graded and slabbed record market emerging if only to protect against knockoffs.



Slabbed? I'm not familiar with that term.

I think there is a company that will professionally grade records, but I can't see anyone doing that except for the rarest of the rare - gold label stereo Please Please Me's, Elvis Sun 45s, certain deep groove Blue Notes, etc. Knockoffs are known but generally not hard to spot if you know what you're looking for. There is one notorious ebay seller that creates hype and promo stickers and puts them on records, and reseals are not unheard of. I buy 99% of my records at thrift stores and flea markets for a dollar or two, so it's not a concern for me. When I occasionally put out some money for something I really want, it's generally something pretty obscure no one would bother to counterfeit.

To give you an idea of the top end of the market, gripsweat culls the daily highest ebay sales. The vast majority of online record sales are on ebay or discogs.
billryan
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May 30th, 2021 at 8:24:46 AM permalink
A slab is a permanent plastic case that entombs the record and album cover. It's tamper-proof.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
jmills
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May 30th, 2021 at 8:50:28 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

A slab is a permanent plastic case that entombs the record and album cover. It's tamper-proof.



I imagine it would be difficult to play the record in that scenario.
billryan
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May 30th, 2021 at 10:43:34 AM permalink
Quote: jmills

I imagine it would be difficult to play the record in that scenario.



You don't play the record, just like you don't read the comic or play with the coin.. But when you go to sell it, the buyer has 100% confidence in what he is getting.
I thought it was a foolish idea when slabbing comics was first introduced around 1998 but it is a hundred million dollar a year business these days. People seem to like collecting labels more than actually reading them.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
smoothgrh
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May 30th, 2021 at 10:58:08 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

You don't play the record, just like you don't read the comic or play with the coin.. But when you go to sell it, the buyer has 100% confidence in what he is getting.
I thought it was a foolish idea when slabbing comics was first introduced around 1998 but it is a hundred million dollar a year business these days. People seem to like collecting labels more than actually reading them.



This aspect of collecting beloved items for display, rather than its intended purpose of use, is addressed in the 1999 animated film "Toy Story 2."
Last edited by: smoothgrh on May 30, 2021
billryan
billryan
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May 30th, 2021 at 11:09:34 AM permalink
Quote: smoothgrh

This aspect of collecting beloved items for display, rather that its intended purpose of use, is addressed in the 1999 animated film "Toy Story 2."



Egg-xactly!
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
jmills
jmills
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May 30th, 2021 at 2:56:12 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

You don't play the record, just like you don't read the comic or play with the coin.. But when you go to sell it, the buyer has 100% confidence in what he is getting.
I thought it was a foolish idea when slabbing comics was first introduced around 1998 but it is a hundred million dollar a year business these days. People seem to like collecting labels more than actually reading them.



Yeah, I know, I was joking. I could in theory slab them since I rip to digital anything I really like. But it's often audiophiles that are buying the high end jazz and classical, and they want to be able to play the record on their $100,000 stereo. The other collectors out there shelling out big money are the DJs that want the rare northern soul 45 to play out, and the instagram trust funders who want to show off their Sun Ra collection.

I collect local 45 labels, so I'm not immune to the desire to run a label.
EvenBob
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May 30th, 2021 at 6:29:43 PM permalink
Quote: jmills

But it's often audiophiles that are buying the high end jazz and classical, and they want to be able to play the record on their $100,000 stereo.



They claim that the physical method of capturing physical sound on a physical record is far superior sounding to anything digital can produce. It's sharper and clearer when played on an expensive system. It's like seeing a famous painting in a museum is better than seeing the same painting in a photograph.
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100xOdds
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May 31st, 2021 at 6:27:13 AM permalink
Quote: Keeneone

Here is a general discussion thread about collectibles. Trading cards, gaming cards, comics, books, NFTs, digital coins, coins/currency, furniture, kitchenware, stamps, wine, dolls/toys, records etc.

The Chip of the Day thread is current collectible thread here @ WOV:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/8928-casino-chip-of-the-day/825/#post803462

Article from late last year about collectibles during the pandemic:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/during-covid-19-pandemic-avid-collectors-find-joy-in-their-prized-possessions-180976281/

i have old magic the gathering cards, including moxes, complete sets of multi-lands and a sealed Chronicles box (20yrs old).

i stopped playing MTG 15yrs ago.
best place to sell these?
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JohnnyQ
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June 1st, 2021 at 5:22:37 AM permalink
I wonder if you could get a sense on pricing and demand on EBAY ( ? ).
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
tuttigym
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unJon
July 20th, 2021 at 2:50:38 PM permalink
I collect true limited editions. My collection is of DATED memorabilia such as drinking vessels, bottles, ash trays, commemorative plates, and other unusual DATED keepsakes. I have over 3500 drinking vessels (cups and glasses) that commemorate some event or thing. I do not collect trophies with one exception. I found a trophy in a junk box at a flea market that was date 1913 given to the winner of a polo match. It is about 24" tall and weighs about 5 lbs. After bringing it home, I turned it over and scratched the base. It is soft. It is solid silver. I paid $7.50 for it. One other object I bought at a yard sale was an IBM card which was punch in pre-determined pattern. The card is encased is solid Lucite weighing about 10 lbs. This particular IBM punch card was used to make the very first Ford (farm) tractor to come off a factory assembly line in 1975. The Ford museum offered me a good sum for it. I declined and still have it.

tuttigym
billryan
billryan
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July 20th, 2021 at 3:12:22 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

i have old magic the gathering cards, including moxes, complete sets of multi-lands and a sealed Chronicles box (20yrs old).

i stopped playing MTG 15yrs ago.
best place to sell these?



There is a very real problem of people resealing rare boxes of MTG, almost to the point that sealed boxes are worth less. I don't deal with these but know some of the rarest boxes can go for $50,000 and more. Selling these on ebay risks a scammer opening your box and returning garbage and claim you had sent resealed garbage.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
ThatDonGuy
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July 20th, 2021 at 3:12:57 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

i have old magic the gathering cards, including moxes, complete sets of multi-lands and a sealed Chronicles box (20yrs old).

i stopped playing MTG 15yrs ago.
best place to sell these?


I sold eight dual lands on eBay a few years ago. The only problem is, there's no guarantee that the buyer isn't going to try to pull some stunt - for example, accusing you of sending a counterfeit card.

However, if you're seriously interested, I would suggest the GenCon gaming convention in Indianapolis. Normally it's around the first weekend in August. (This year is mid-September, but there won't be an auction so don't bother.) It has a sizable auction with its card sales frequented by a number of dealers, so expect top dollar. A sealed Chronicles should be worth something; I got $325 for a sealed Unglued back in 2015, when it was long out of print.
billryan
billryan
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July 20th, 2021 at 3:19:50 PM permalink
There are a number of dealers who will give you an honest value for them, especially if you consign them. Do some research before you sell.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
MrV
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July 20th, 2021 at 3:54:25 PM permalink
Years ago I acquired about forty or so old cameos and intaglio pieces, suitable for rings or pendants.

Some are jade.

The market for these is very limited, apparently: I cannot find a viable buyer, so they just sit there in a lacquered Russian box, waiting for a new lease on life.
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Keeneone
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July 20th, 2021 at 4:13:36 PM permalink
I kind of forgot about this thread I started. :)

In March I sent in around 25 cards/tickets to PSA to get graded. This was right before they closed down lower cost grading levels. I will not be getting most of them back for some time (PSA is backed up). Most of these are items I plan to keep and have memories attached. None are particularly valuable but it will be nice to have them protected/slabbed/graded. I wish I had sent in more at the lower price levels. One does not have to grade cards to sell them. They can be sold "raw". There are loads of resources/forums available for all these things. Ebay is a big player in the card market (sports, magic, Pokemon etc). There are many positives and plenty of negatives to selling on ebay and they are not the only option.
billryan
billryan
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July 20th, 2021 at 4:24:10 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Years ago I acquired about forty or so old cameos and intaglio pieces, suitable for rings or pendants.

Some are jade.

The market for these is very limited, apparently: I cannot find a viable buyer, so they just sit there in a lacquered Russian box, waiting for a new lease on life.



My Aunt collected cameos all thru the 1960s and 1970s. She left them to her Sister who always referred to them as being valuable. When she passed, we had an antique buyer go thru the house. Some things were worth more than we thought, but the valuable cameos weren't among them. We ended up letting everyone choose one and the rest went in two lots at auction.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
Keeneone
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smoothgrh
July 20th, 2021 at 4:41:55 PM permalink
Basic PSA primer for the card Axel mentioned: 1971 Topps Nolan Ryan. 1971 Topps baseball had black borders so it is difficult to get a high grade for that year. In fact, there are no PSA 10s of this card (there are 31 PSA 9s). PSA has some nice resources to gather information about a particular card.
https://www.psacard.com/cardfacts/baseball-cards/1971-topps/nolan-ryan-513/33520
The lowest cost to grade the card right now with PSA is ~$200 for "Express" (plus shipping/insurance) (max card value $2499). It would need to grade a 7 or higher to sell the card at a profit based upon information in the link above.
Recent PSA 7 sold on ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/144103151731?hash=item218d379873:g:sjcAAOSwhQtg47gq
Recent raw card sold on ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/174834214668?hash=item28b4ee670c:g:fwUAAOSwWNVg6Q7I
If the card grades highly, PSA can/will adjust the grading cost based on past sales history. IOW, if it grades as a PSA 9 (or higher) the grading cost will increase.
https://www.psacard.com/pricing
PSA is not the only grading company but it is the current market leader.
AlanMendelson
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July 20th, 2021 at 10:38:56 PM permalink
I'm listed in the PCGS Registry for having had one of the finest sets of proof silver Washington quarters. They were minted from 1936 thru 1964.

PCGS is the Professional Coin Grading Service... the company with slabs.

At one time my collection was ranked #1. It included the five proof 70 (70 is perfect) quarters from 1960, 61, 62, 63, 64.

But I sold my collection when PCGS pulled a fast one.

PCGS changed the scoring for "registry sets" that made Proof 69 Deep Cameo coins have a higher point value than a Proof 70 perfect coin.

I protested because I knew that would knock me out of #1 and make other collections rank higher and knock down the value of my set.

When my protest failed I sold my set while it was still #1 and before it lost value.

I think what PCGS did was unfair. They literally said perfect coins were less collectible than shiny coins with imperfections.

Yes. One company put the coin business on tilt.
AxelWolf
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July 21st, 2021 at 2:57:03 AM permalink
Quote: Keeneone

Basic PSA primer for the card Axel mentioned: 1971 Topps Nolan Ryan. 1971 Topps baseball had black borders so it is difficult to get a high grade for that year. In fact, there are no PSA 10s of this card (there are 31 PSA 9s). PSA has some nice resources to gather information about a particular card.
https://www.psacard.com/cardfacts/baseball-cards/1971-topps/nolan-ryan-513/33520
The lowest cost to grade the card right now with PSA is ~$200 for "Express" (plus shipping/insurance) (max card value $2499). It would need to grade a 7 or higher to sell the card at a profit based upon information in the link above.
Recent PSA 7 sold on ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/144103151731?hash=item218d379873:g:sjcAAOSwhQtg47gq
Recent raw card sold on ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/174834214668?hash=item28b4ee670c:g:fwUAAOSwWNVg6Q7I
If the card grades highly, PSA can/will adjust the grading cost based on past sales history. IOW, if it grades as a PSA 9 (or higher) the grading cost will increase.
https://www.psacard.com/pricing
PSA is not the only grading company but it is the current market leader.

I have a few of these, oddly enough, one of them has a different back than the others, I think it was printed in or for Canada.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
billryan
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July 21st, 2021 at 4:43:47 AM permalink
Topps produced cards that were sold only in Canada, under the OPeeChee brand. Usually the front is the same but the back will be slightly different.. Most OpeeChees have something in French, as well as English. As a rule of thumb, they sell for less than their US counterparts
Cards with black borders like the 1971 set are harder to get good grades on as the black is unforgiving.
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gamerfreak
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July 21st, 2021 at 5:12:10 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm listed in the PCGS Registry for having had one of the finest sets of proof silver Washington quarters. They were minted from 1936 thru 1964.

PCGS is the Professional Coin Grading Service... the company with slabs.

At one time my collection was ranked #1. It included the five proof 70 (70 is perfect) quarters from 1960, 61, 62, 63, 64.

But I sold my collection when PCGS pulled a fast one.

PCGS changed the scoring for "registry sets" that made Proof 69 Deep Cameo coins have a higher point value than a Proof 70 perfect coin.

I protested because I knew that would knock me out of #1 and make other collections rank higher and knock down the value of my set.

When my protest failed I sold my set while it was still #1 and before it lost value.

I think what PCGS did was unfair. They literally said perfect coins were less collectible than shiny coins with imperfections.

Yes. One company put the coin business on tilt.


A very wealthy friend of a friend claimed to have the best collection of US quarters in existence.

I asked him why quarters, and he said “because I can’t afford to have the best penny collection”.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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July 21st, 2021 at 9:40:09 AM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

A very wealthy friend of a friend claimed to have the best collection of US quarters in existence.

I asked him why quarters, and he said “because I can’t afford to have the best penny collection”.



Yes, quarters were a less valuable subset. My smaller subset of Silver Washingtons was only from 1936 to 1964.

The "king" of US coin collections is Morgan Silver Dollars.

I always wanted rainbow toned Mint State 68 Morgans. But even 20 years ago when I was collecting they were about 10k each. Today... $20k and up.

Sometimes individual coins from my Registry set show up in auctions.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154053470528?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item23de4d6940:g:dwoAAOSwsR5fPxjM&amdata=enc%3AAQAGAAACoPYe5NmHp%252B2JMhMi7yxGiTJkPrKr5t53CooMSQt2orsStEKTPzZMfQmny3knR97t0FxSDT0ddK%252BgxHnmoWX4UbEskrQUvXGJP8P%252BDYbK53N13hfzQvL90BzQuI%252B%252BzVJscFISH5EwE4F5rLuX2wwgq6Vaq8s1BCYHl7ZkmkGwQiYTKxaAYtOGpV97itUQkiPrx8uukyd5nwm7QFVryy20IjZiTmBL%252B7EMSJk3WcvF2D33DFmPoeZArkTXgTC52KTj2HVSBgC2ZI9oNSb68wBeG3m3hCTvZsZFk5m9WBXxWmBKAGVj5NAA5w9IUPLkIyim5rkpH7tCvRgF9Oy1xOIGeEpJj4BVn0vMhDQcqbtOHCLwgurl5sfFK8x2NwN7l6CuKfhVeW21hao0ZlVHmVMiTCsfECbacNUX8FuB4k5Gr6C9V4eQ1LG19g4%252F05Ynxya29%252FCzSKWpAlJ12fz4mJbvDX3M6cOF6f6HONJBgT%252FpfDMY%252FDJkCMB8PEsYhmbXA1UgI1p%252FkmbRpNvC1RfxxYPCOLON0j2e39OlhD8TrYN%252FHfuTVU7GYL6fe1%252B8%252Fg7gV7paofHhmJc9dl7GFyMhqLEkKAwEJn7f053s1RL9vjNfLJ%252B%252B6l5GO0ZSPrFGeVvmU1rHwv6sKVK69jbuwH4rrBAnD5z5aA%252B4EFcjKvSt1D13HOTYXvERtcDwq82Wxz8n01EUQVM453YRKc8GdM72PF5qEvEarnaUpOTMQZ6gDuJhCkETS2NpOjaG3buWmGsQiSDLGWt%252FSRjZcoSYf8kO1EqqProAJpcztXIbpykxW%252BAxR1xr%252BD2Aatohu3dYYLCCJ5KdmzR5h%252BNiEMsIl7pVmEcjoa94xP%252BRPGw8HGKBwqU8qWkiS2zjitGet1%252FW0vDV3WAlFw%253D%253D%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524

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