Big Cities to Resist Trump Deportations
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/27/us/cities-vow-to-fight-trump-on-immigration-even-if-they-lose-millions.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fus&action=click&contentCollection=us®ion=rank&module=package&version=highlights&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=sectionfront
So-called "Sanctuary Cities" should be required to comply or risk losing money from the Federal Government. They don't "have to" comply; they just "have to" make a choice.
I'm not advocating massive deportations, but it is ridiculous to criminals to stay. They are not citizens, who we have to keep...even though we wish we could send some of them away, too.
I don't believe anyone advocates for allowing serious crime to go unpunished, nor that convicted felons be allowed to stay.
How many here can say they have never broken a law? Smoked pot? Ever exceeded the speed limit? Had a beer before you were 21?
Quote: rxwineBeing that he is the "law & order" candidate I assume he's going equally as hard on those state only supported marijuana laws.
Good people don't smoke pot. Nuff said.
Quote: billryanI prefer my police, which are paid for by local taxes, to fight crime and deal with local issues, not enforce Federal laws. Causing local undocumented to fear the police increases crime as criminals prey on those who can't call the police.
I don't believe anyone advocates for allowing serious crime to go unpunished, nor that convicted felons be allowed to stay.
How many here can say they have never broken a law? Smoked pot? Ever exceeded the speed limit? Had a beer before you were 21?
If a person is convicted and jailed for an offense (not just charged; actually found guilty and sentenced), and the database shows they are an illegal alien, they should be handed over for deportation.
I am not in favor of "rounding them up", but handing them over when they are already in custody should not be an issue.
The whole "not enforce Federal laws" is a non-starter. Bank Robbery is a Federal crime, yet I bet any police officer out there would apprehend a suspected bank robber and allow the proper authorities to figure out who charges the suspect.
Quote: RonCIf a person is convicted and jailed for an offense (not just charged; actually found guilty and sentenced), and the database shows they are an illegal alien, they should be handed over for deportation.
Good in theory. Bad in practice. So we catch a rapist. Convict him. Then deport him back to Mexico. So how do we stop him from getting over the border the second time? We failed the first time obviously.
Maybe not municipalities per se. But certainly with states -- using highway funds to raise the legal drinking age to 21.Quote: lilredroosterTo my knowledge there has never been a showdown like this between municipalities and the Feds.
Quote: SOOPOOGood in theory. Bad in practice. So we catch a rapist. Convict him. Then deport him back to Mexico. So how do we stop him from getting over the border the second time? We failed the first time obviously.
You don't deport ANYONE until they have served their time here. Once they serve their time, turn them over to Immigration and deport them.
They may come back in; we need to also have border enforcement with teeth, especially for those ejected once already.
Just letting them serve out their time and releasing them back here is not a good answer.
Quote: RonCIf a person is convicted and jailed for an offense (not just charged; actually found guilty and sentenced), and the database shows they are an illegal alien, they should be handed over for deportation.
I am not in favor of "rounding them up", but handing them over when they are already in custody should not be an issue.
The whole "not enforce Federal laws" is a non-starter. Bank Robbery is a Federal crime, yet I bet any police officer out there would apprehend a suspected bank robber and allow the proper authorities to figure out who charges the suspect.
Bank robbers are tried in State Courts, so obviously it's also a state crime. Immigration is not handled by any state courts, is it?
I have no problem with the Federal Government expelling violent felons, after they are convicted and served their sentence. I just don't think local authorities should be involved. If someone's house is being broken into, or they get mugged, they should be able to call 911 without worrying about getting deported.
Quote: SanchoPanzaMaybe not municipalities per se. But certainly with states -- using highway funds to raise the legal drinking age to 21.
I don't know if it has happened yet, but it has been threatened before by the current administration:
"Over the summer, the possibility was raised of withholding HUD funding to push cities to reevaluate policies targeting the homeless."
http://kut.org/post/withholding-hud-funds-possibility-cities-criminalize-homelessness
The States are also threatened with losing highway funds if they do not keep speeds down to certain levels on their roadways.
Quote: RonCYou don't deport ANYONE until they have served their time here. Once they serve their time, turn them over to Immigration and deport them.
They may come back in; we need to also have border enforcement with teeth, especially for those ejected once already.
Just letting them serve out their time and releasing them back here is not a good answer.
I disagree with this approach. All that does is increase the financial burden on the taxpayer. We have an insane amount of people in prison already. Deport them immediately. Keep them out.
Quote: billryanI prefer my police, which are paid for by local taxes, to fight crime and deal with local issues, not enforce Federal laws.
Yeah, sure, right. You cherry pick when you want the federal government to something, now to protect sanctuary cities you're all of a sudden a states' rights kinda guy. What a crock.
Quote: billryanBank robbers are tried in State Courts, so obviously it's also a state crime. Immigration is not handled by any state courts, is it?
I have no problem with the Federal Government expelling violent felons, after they are convicted and served their sentence. I just don't think local authorities should be involved. If someone's house is being broken into, or they get mugged, they should be able to call 911 without worrying about getting deported.
They are likely tried in either system; here are examples of some tried in Federal Court:
"ALBUQUERQUE – Fabian Baros, 38, of Albuquerque, N.M., was sentenced today in federal court to 37 months in prison followed by three years of supervised release for his bank robbery conviction."
https://www.justice.gov/usao-nm/pr/albuquerque-man-sentenced-prison-federal-bank-robbery-conviction
"CLEARLAKE, Calif. – A former New York resident has been sentenced to federal prison for a July 2015 armed bank robbery in Clearlake.
Samuel T. Campbell, 26, was sentenced in San Francisco on Friday to 70 months in prison, five years' supervised release and the requirement that he pay restitution of $3,000 to Clearlake's Bank of the West, according to Sgt. Rodd Joseph of the Clearlake Police Department."
http://www.lakeconews.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48401:man-convicted-of-july-2015-bank-robbery-sentenced-in-federal-court&catid=1:latest&Itemid=197
The other part is simple...don't check the status of the people who call in; just deport those who actually commit the crimes. I can't see why anyone is really in favor of keeping illegals who commit further serious illegal crimes.
Quote: beachbumbabsI disagree with this approach. All that does is increase the financial burden on the taxpayer. We have an insane amount of people in prison already. Deport them immediately. Keep them out.
That is not a good idea at all.
Let's consider you or a loved one being the victim of a rape by an illegal alien. He is not tried or convicted, he just gets deported. Is that how we should treat the victims of a crime that we used to believe was worthy of the death penalty? I'm sorry...it is one of the worst acts one can commit (or endure, if the victim) short of murder.
Let them serve their time and then send them back where they came from. We owe the victim that.
Quote: bobbartopYeah, sure, right. You cherry pick when you want the federal government to something, now to protect sanctuary cities you're all of a sudden a states' rights kinda guy. What a crock.
What are you blathering about?
Quote: beachbumbabsI disagree with this approach. All that does is increase the financial burden on the taxpayer. We have an insane amount of people in prison already. Deport them immediately. Keep them out.
Horrible idea. Someone gets arrested for murder and you give them a plane ticket? Even if they never come back, is that justice?Perhaps we empty our prisons of nonviolent offenders and make room for the violent ones.
Quote: beachbumbabsI disagree with this approach. All that does is increase the financial burden on the taxpayer. We have an insane amount of people in prison already. Deport them immediately. Keep them out.
Are you kidding me? Suddenly concerned about taxes, that's rich. So if they commit a heinous crime HERE, don't punish them in our prison, just ship them out. Guess what, they go to the other country and they don't get punished. Not hard to figure out. Thank God for prisons, build more of them. That "insane amount of people in prison" belong in prison. They don't send hippies and flower children to the joint. For the most part, if you're in a California prison, you've already done a lot of bad stuff.
Funny, here in the state of California, part of the blue wall, we had two props concerning the death penalty. One was to repeal it, which got shot down by a big margin. The other was to speed up the process of putting the condemned out of their misery, it passed by big margin. So California, huge liberal state, STILL has some common sense. There's still hope, although not for another republican governor in the next century.
Quote: beachbumbabsI disagree with this approach. All that does is increase the financial burden on the taxpayer. We have an insane amount of people in prison already. Deport them immediately. Keep them out.
So you are happy with 10 million people here not subject to our laws????? Only punishment is to be sent home????? Please re-think this......
Quote: billryanPerhaps we empty our prisons of nonviolent offenders and make room for the violent ones.
There's essentially no such thing as a "nonviolent offender", not in California prisons anyway. You don't know what you're talking about.
Quote: bobbartopThere's essentially no such thing as a "nonviolent offender", not in California prisons anyway. You don't know what you're talking about.
You're funny.
Quote: lilredroosterTo my knowledge there has never been a showdown like this between municipalities and the Feds.
Actually, there has been, and it's a fascinating story. During the Japanese deportations in 1942, the mayor of Bremerton, Washington said that not only would he not cooperate with the deportation orders, he would resist them. Bremerton was then and is now, a major naval base, so the local Japanese-Americans, mostly farmers and small merchants, were in particular singled out as security risks and were among the first in the US to be targeted. The mayor actually deployed police to stop the army from entering Bremerton and enforcing the deportation order. After a tense period, the mayor was convinced to back down--it looked for a while as if shots would actually be fired. The feds tried to prosecute the mayor, but local opposition blunted the effort.
You can't find out much about this except from local archives, oddly enough. You would think that the mayor--whose name I cannot find out--would be a hero. There's a memorial nearby on Bainbridge Island commemorating the deportations.
Quote: bobbartopYou cherry pick when you want the federal government to something, now to protect sanctuary cities you're all of a sudden a states' rights kinda guy. What a crock.
Exactly why I brought up state marijuana laws. Trump is elected to cherry pick on felony enforcement.
I expect him to look the other way on marijuana. Or be very weak on enforcement at best.
Quote: rxwineExactly why I brought up state marijuana laws. Trump is elected to cherry pick on felony enforcement.
I expect him to look the other way on marijuana. Or be very weak on enforcement at best.
If anything was ever a perfect argument for the Tenth Amendment, marijuana laws are, and I don't even smoke the stuff. Absolutely none of the Federal government's business. Most things aren't.
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/11/17/502402409/surgeon-general-murthy-wants-america-to-face-up-to-addiction
Quote: billryanYou're funny.
Thanks. But I wasn't joking. In California you don't go to prison for being "nonviolent". And if you are nonviolent before you go in, you'll be a new man when you get out. Trust me.
One of my best friends, known each other since we were 17, got out about four months ago under the 3-judge courts instructions to reduce crowded facilities. He was classified non-violent, qualified, and he's home now. He's been in Soledad, Folsom, CRC, Chino, Blythe, Calipatria, 2nd striker. He's done nothing but rob places and assault people all his life. I'm glad he's out because he's my friend. But if I didn't know him I would vote to keep him in. He's dangerous.
And if you're not dangerous when you first go in, you better learn to be dangerous, real fast. I'll stand by my previous comments. Meanwhile, in California, they have passed two big laws to release people. Funny, burglaries, etc., are up everywhere. Guess it's just a coincidence.
THANK GOD FOR PRISONS!
Quote: lilredroosterThere is an epidemic of drug abuse our country now and it's different now than ever before. The Surgeon General has estimated that 20.8 million people have a substance abuse disorder. Virtually all sides of the political spectrum have recognized that mass incarceration of low level offenders is not a good answer to this problem. There are now a fair amount of high school kids using heroin. There are grandmas hooked on oxycodone. Even the toughest talking law and order guy will likely recognize this if his son or daughter is showing signs of this problem. It's different now, way different. It's not just the inner cities and its not just kids trying to be cool. It's an epidemic now and it requires a certain dedicated approach; namely expansion of rehab facilities.
The users need help. But the guys in Fresno making bath tubs full of meth need to be put down, like the rabid animals that they are. No life without, PUT THEM DOWN.
Quote: bobbartopThe users need help. But the guys in Fresno making bath tubs full of meth need to be put down, like the rabid animals that they are. No life without, PUT THEM DOWN.
This is a little bit wide of the subject but I recently saw a documentary about a high ranking Corrections Officer in Texas whose job it was to "put down" criminals. I'm pretty sure Texas executes way more people than any other state. He struggled with what he was doing but he managed. Then one day he was told he had to execute a woman. He told his boss that he couldn't do it. They fired him. He became emotionally unbalanced and lost everything. They wouldn't pay him his pension. I guess it's real different when its up close and personal like that.
Quote: lilredroosterThis is a little bit wide of the subject but I recently saw a documentary about a high ranking Corrections Officer in Texas whose job it was to "put down" criminals. I'm pretty sure Texas executes way more people than any other state. He struggled with what he was doing but he managed. Then one day he was told he had to execute a woman. He told his boss that he couldn't do it. They fired him. He became emotionally unbalanced and lost everything. They wouldn't pay him his pension. I guess it's real different when its up close and personal like that.
Everybody is a bad ass when someone else is pulling the trigger.
Quote: RonCLet's consider you or a loved one being the victim of a rape by an illegal alien. He is not tried or convicted, he just gets deported. Is that how we should treat the victims of a crime that we used to believe was worthy of the death penalty? I'm sorry...it is one of the worst acts one can commit (or endure, if the victim) short of murder.
Let them serve their time and then send them back where they came from. We owe the victim that.
Cost of 1 year incarceration - $32,475
Cost of 1 deportation -$12,500
Cost of 1 .38 special - 31.025¢
Quote: rainmanEverybody is a bad ass when someone else is pulling the trigger.
Old men declare war.
Then they send young men out to fight the war.
Quote: billryanGood people don't smoke pot. Nuff said.
What type of idiotic generalization is this??? Deleted.
Quote: bobbartopThere's essentially no such thing as a "nonviolent offender", not in California prisons anyway. You don't know what you're talking about.
Are you from California? Do you have personal experience or did you work for with the California State Prison System? Do you have records of all inmates in a California State Prison? I find it incredible that you believe there are no nonviolent offenders in prison. Please, go visit a California state prison and see who is REALLY in there, because many people, especially people of color and minorities are in prison for non-violent offenses, such as distribution of marijuana
I know that logic, math, science, are difficult concepts for some people, but these things DONT CARE what YOU believe in.
The facts are the same. 95% of ISIS's victims ARE MUSLIMS. The vast majority of "Illegal Immigrants" are nonviolent, hard working people with families they want to support and feed.
You, me, and EVERYONE is an Illegal Immigrant. White People killed, abused, and took advantage of Native Americans from the moment we landed in America.
Believe what you want to believe, but I stand and say that if you choose Ignorance and Bias over Science and Truth, YOU are the real one that needs to leave this Democracy.
Quote: CasinoKiller"Funny, burglaries, etc., are up everywhere. Guess it's just a coincidence." Cite your source
Bob does NOT do that. He's insulted that you even ask. Take everything he says completely at face value and without any proof, the way you're supposed to!
He also probably doesn't understand that most pairs of events that happen at the same time ARE, in fact, coincidences--in that correlation does not imply causation. If "burglaries, etc." ARE "up everywhere" (an idiotically worded generalization), that doesn't mean that recent releases of convicted felons from prison are the cause. A tiny-brained person might think that (seeing some kind of vague connection), but in reality, crime rates are due to any one or more of dozens of related factors.
It's kind of silly to think that the first thing a person will do when released from prison is go on a crime spree. It's thinking like that that keeps prisons overcrowded.
Quote: lilredroosterThis is a little bit wide of the subject but I recently saw a documentary about a high ranking Corrections Officer in Texas whose job it was to "put down" criminals. I'm pretty sure Texas executes way more people than any other state. He struggled with what he was doing but he managed. Then one day he was told he had to execute a woman. He told his boss that he couldn't do it. They fired him. He became emotionally unbalanced and lost everything. They wouldn't pay him his pension. I guess it's real different when its up close and personal like that.
I don't take it lightly. A human life is the most serious thing there is. But it is the people on Death Row who have FORCED society to do this to them. They leave us no choice. I wish that NO ONE had to be put to death. I also wish that animals would not kidnap and rape and murder and commit all kinds of horrible acts. When they do that, they leave Society no choice in my opinion. They need to give up their life. Would I want to pull the switch or witness an execution? Heck no. Unless it was personal. But it has to be done. And yes, Texas does not keep people on Death Row for 26 years like California does. Texas don't fk around. We have over 700 people on The Row in California. There are three sections in SQ. Richard Allen, the monster who killed that little girl in Petaluma has been waiting 23 years. KILL HIM ALREADY! Kill him for Polly.
Quote: CasinoKiller"Funny, burglaries, etc., are up everywhere. Guess it's just a coincidence." Cite your source
Cite my source? I live here. Wtf do you think you're talking to? I live here, I work here, I listen to radio, I read the newspaper. Property crime is UP. I believe it was Prop 47, not this last election but the one before that, changed "wobblers" to misdemeanors and cut a lot of dudes out on the street. A wobbler is a crime that can be either a misd or felony, like ROBBERY, and they automatically got reviewed for consideration of letting them out. Thousands have been released. Then there was the 3-judge court releasing people because of overcrowding. I followed this very closely because one of my closest friends was subject to qualifying. He had four years left on an 11 years sentence and they cut him loose four months ago. He qualified as "non-violent". I've known him since we were both doing crime and time when we were teens. He has been in Soledad, Folsom, Chino, Blythe, Calipatria, and he has robbed and assaulted people ALL OF HIS LIFE. I'm glad they let him out because he is my friend, but their classification of "non-violent" is all BS.
Cite my source? That's my freaking source. The local newspaper and the 6:00 o'clock news. What's YOUR source?
Quote: JoeshlabotnikBob does NOT do that. He's insulted that you even ask. Take everything he says completely at face value and without any proof, the way you're supposed to!
He also probably doesn't understand that most pairs of events that happen at the same time ARE, in fact, coincidences--in that correlation does not imply causation. If "burglaries, etc." ARE "up everywhere" (an idiotically worded generalization), that doesn't mean that recent releases of convicted felons from prison are the cause. A tiny-brained person might think that (seeing some kind of vague connection), but in reality, crime rates are due to any one or more of dozens of related factors.
It's kind of silly to think that the first thing a person will do when released from prison is go on a crime spree. It's thinking like that that keeps prisons overcrowded.
You don't even know how many dudes walk away from the release center. They just did a nickel, get released to pre-release, with like 60 days to go, and they JUMP. They can't help themselves. They can't wait to light up. You don't know wtf you're talking about.
And look who's talking. You say I don't cite my sources, while you apparently are just spouting off from your own mouth. Cite YOUR sources. Try "Prop 47" and "3-judge court overcrowding".
Quote: rainmanEverybody is a bad ass when someone else is pulling the trigger.
I hope you're not talking about me. Human life is ALWAYS important. I don't want capital punishment, but I'm not the one doing heinous crime. They FORCE society to do this awful deed. Here's an idea, STOP MURDERING AND RAPING INNOCENT PEOPLE and we can repeal the death penalty. OK?
By the way, if a gang member murders another gang member, he should not be sentenced to death. He should get a medal.
Quote: CasinoKillerAre you from California? Do you have personal experience or did you work for with the California State Prison System? Do you have records of all inmates in a California State Prison? I find it incredible that you believe there are no nonviolent offenders in prison. Please, go visit a California state prison and see who is REALLY in there, because many people, especially people of color and minorities are in prison for non-violent offenses, such as distribution of marijuana
That's really a load of crappola. Another guy who don't know what you're talking about. If you go to prison in this state, you already have a long list of serious anti-social behavior. They do not send hippies to prison for 1st time possession and a couple joints. IT'S ALL GANGS. I know you really don't know what you're talking about when you start talking about minorities for "non-violent" offenses. If you are white, I hope YOU don't have to find out the hard way how nice and gentle the blacks and Chicanos are in the joint in California. They will welcome you when you get there and invite you to join them for tea and crumpets. Nice guys, and they really like white people. Good luck.
Quote: bobbartopYou don't even know how many dudes walk away from the release center. They just did a nickel, get released to pre-release, with like 60 days to go, and they JUMP. They can't help themselves. They can't wait to light up. You don't know wtf you're talking about.
And look who's talking. You say I don't cite my sources, while you apparently are just spouting off from your own mouth. Cite YOUR sources. Try "Prop 47" and "3-judge court overcrowding".
The burden of proof is on the person who makes an implausible assertion. You implied a correlation without giving any proof of it. Then, when challenged, you snarled that your own personal observations (and prejudices) are good enough.
I would even accept your professional standing as a member of law enforcement or corrections as slightly increasing the (tiny) chance that you know what you're talking about. Is that the case? Do you have any professional standing in the field?
Please use a more original argumentative tactic than Trump, by the way. When accused of lying (or making stuff up), his defense is "you too! you too!" Sorry, that may have worked in fourth grade (and during the election, apparently), but it won't work here.
Quote: bobbartopI hope you're not talking about me. Human life is ALWAYS important. I don't want capital punishment, but I'm not the one doing heinous crime. They FORCE society to do this awful deed. Here's an idea, STOP MURDERING AND RAPING INNOCENT PEOPLE and we can repeal the death penalty. OK?
By the way, if a gang member murders another gang member, he should not be sentenced to death. He should get a medal.
Ah, so murder is wrong unless bobbartop approves of it. Thanks for clarifying what we already suspected--the bizarre calibration of your moral compass.
Quote: onenickelmiracleThe way I remember Canada, Canadian prisons are better than living free in the U.S.,
lol That's funny, and it might be true, knowing Canada. But there must be a place where they put the really bad ones. I've never been to Canada. But off the top of my head, there is no prison in California that is "easy" time. There's the "old man's colony" in San Luis Obisbo, which is half of the institution. All the prisons have a Level-1 section where minimum security guys stay and perform outside functions like cutting the grass, grounds keeping, etc. And over the last decade or so, many of the older places like SQ and Folsom are now mostly Level-2 inmates, though these used to be notorious and hardcore. What they have done is build brand new places to put the Level-4s and most violent. For instance, Old Folsom is now basically Level-2, but they've got a New Folsom next to it, and it's ALL Level-4, sh*t jumping off all the time.
Another thing they have done is create many SNYs, Sensitive Needs Yards within the different facilities. Don't let the label fool you. Even the weaker inmates can stick something in your chest cavity. Even they have their own gangs. Even the homosexuals have their own gangs. California is hard time. And everything is racial.
Quote: JoeshlabotnikThe burden of proof is on the person who makes an implausible assertion. You implied a correlation without giving any proof of it. Then, when challenged, you snarled that your own personal observations (and prejudices) are good enough.
I am so happy to see that you are no longer on suspension. When I logged on this morning after a month's absence, I got goose bumps when I saw your name and it was in "active" color. I am sure I speak for everyone, you make this forum exciting.
Quote: bobbartopI am so happy to see that you are no longer on suspension. When I logged on this morning after a month's absence, I got goose bumps when I saw your name and it was in "active" color. I am sure I speak for everyone, you make this forum exciting.
And I am happy as well to see that your adversarial relationship with the truth continues in full flower, as always. The world needs people who extract "facts" from their nether regions.
Whatever you do, don't cite any of your assertions. That would be unboblike.
Quote: JoeshlabotnikAnd I am happy as well to see that your adversarial relationship with the truth continues in full flower, as always. The world needs people who extract "facts" from their nether regions.
Whatever you do, don't cite any of your assertions. That would be unboblike.
Just to change the subject for a moment but I just noticed something interesting. I joined in March, and you joined in July. I have 576 posts, and you have 886 POSTS! lol You're worse than my mother-in-law.
Quote: bobbartopJust to change the subject for a moment but I just noticed something interesting. I joined in March, and you joined in July. I have 576 posts, and you have 886 POSTS! lol You're worse than my mother-in-law.
Well, Bob, if posting on this board is a bad thing, then why are you posting?
*Logic burn" Bob goes down in flames.
