Should game shows have the right to ban...audience members?

OK, I'm sorry for starting the third thread in a row about such a subject, but it's a interesting story that happened last year, with many similarities to what we've been discussing recently:

http://www.esquire.com/features/impossible/price-is-right-perfect-bid-0810

Reader's Digest version: Terry (who happens to have once worked in casino surveillance) gets on "The Price is Right" and manages to make a perfect bid on his Showcase. (To put it in perspective, this is the second time this has happened in the 37 years the show has been on the air--and the first time was in the '70s, when the average Showcase price was a few thousand dollars, so it wasn't nearly as impressive.) Terry maintains he did it on his own, but there was another man in the audience, Ted, who had attended many tapings of the show, memorized the prices of nearly all the prizes that the show offered, and fed Terry the perfect bid.

To me, what Ted did isn't really all that different from when card counters do--gain some specialized knowledge that is applicable only in a very narrow area of life, and use it to exploit a game in a way that its operators (in this case, the show's producers) didn't really intend it to be played.

"The Price is Right" has responded to people like Ted by greatly increasing the number and types of prizes offered, making it much more difficult to memorize prices--just like a casino might change its blackjack rules, decrease the shoe penetration, etc. to discourage counters.

Quote: OneAngryDwarf

OK, I'm sorry for starting the third thread in a row about such a subject, but it's a interesting story that happened last year, with many similarities to what we've been discussing recently:

http://www.esquire.com/features/impossible/price-is-right-perfect-bid-0810

Reader's Digest version: Terry (who happens to have once worked in casino surveillance) gets on "The Price is Right" and manages to make a perfect bid on his Showcase. (To put it in perspective, this is the second time this has happened in the 37 years the show has been on the air--and the first time was in the '70s, when the average Showcase price was a few thousand dollars, so it wasn't nearly as impressive.) Terry maintains he did it on his own, but there was another man in the audience, Ted, who had attended many tapings of the show, memorized the prices of nearly all the prizes that the show offered, and fed Terry the perfect bid.

To me, what Ted did isn't really all that different from when card counters do--gain some specialized knowledge that is applicable only in a very narrow area of life, and use it to exploit a game in a way that its operators (in this case, the show's producers) didn't really intend it to be played.

It is different from tolday's counters in an important way. He used a confederate and a "device" to do it. If I sit down at a BJ table and count away, that is fine. If I sit down and tap a shoe computer I get a RFB comp in one of Nevada's larger properties. So if the guy watrched and memorized the prices and could add all that up fine. But if the guy was in the audience and got the bid to him (easy in this day and age) then that is not right.

Quote: OneAngryDwarf

OK, I'm sorry for starting the third thread in a row about such a subject, but it's a interesting story that happened last year, with many similarities to what we've been discussing recently:

http://www.esquire.com/features/impossible/price-is-right-perfect-bid-0810

Reader's Digest version: Terry (who happens to have once worked in casino surveillance) gets on "The Price is Right" and manages to make a perfect bid on his Showcase. (To put it in perspective, this is the second time this has happened in the 37 years the show has been on the air--and the first time was in the '70s, when the average Showcase price was a few thousand dollars, so it wasn't nearly as impressive.) Terry maintains he did it on his own, but there was another man in the audience, Ted, who had attended many tapings of the show, memorized the prices of nearly all the prizes that the show offered, and fed Terry the perfect bid.

To me, what Ted did isn't really all that different from when card counters do--gain some specialized knowledge that is applicable only in a very narrow area of life, and use it to exploit a game in a way that its operators (in this case, the show's producers) didn't really intend it to be played.

"The Price is Right" has responded to people like Ted by greatly increasing the number and types of prizes offered, making it much more difficult to memorize prices--just like a casino might change its blackjack rules, decrease the shoe penetration, etc. to discourage counters.

As long as no one from the show tipped him off to the actual prizes that would be on and/or their prices, it looks more like the dude from Press Your Luck that memorized the light patterns on the big board. Seemed like educated guesses ("$100 a foot for the camper, plus a little more" could have ended up giving him a number a few 100 off...) more than cheating. Plus there was still a lot of chance in getting up on stage to begin with. (Even though they make it appear random, it's clear that they screen and pick who they want up there...)

From what I've read about this incident, the two weren't in collusion; Ted was sitting in the front row screaming out the bid, like everyone does, it just happened that Terry bid what he was screaming. You can see it on Youtube, but not the audience. You can google "price is right perfect bid" and learn more.

A very interesting story indeed. It was Ted that was banned, not Terry. Of course, a game show should have the right to do whatever it needs to do as long as it's following its own rules. Is Terry telling the truth with the dumb luck story -- a 3 digit PIN? Or did he just hear Ted's voice and went with it?

I think it's fine to use the skill members of you or anyone else in the audience to tell you what prices are. However, like Vegas, you can be backed off for having too much "skill". And this is what CBS did.

Quote: AZDuffman

...But if the guy was in the audience and got the bid to him (easy in this day and age) then that is not right.

TPIR (The Price Is Right) is meant to be audience participation in just about every sense of the word. A few hundred people are yelling out the answer at every moment. Granted, most are wrong. Ted simply studied hard, found a contestant that would listen to him, and gave him the answers. It was all in accordance with the rules as they were set. Almost every contestant looks to the audience for help... nothing wrong with that. It just so happens the audience member that gave help knew the right thing to say.

This is different than card counting in that casinos expect counters, look for them, and give them the boot when they exhibit signs of counting. TPIR was not at the stage of "expecting it" when this occurred. Now that it has happened, they are putting in precautions: New and different prizes, ramped up difficulty, and moving/banning certain audience members. If TPIR gets lax in repeating of prizes and prices, it could happen again.

deleted

Even if there was collusion, as long as the advice given was based on information fairly gathered during previous shows, then I applaud the players, and feel they should get every penny and prize. They openly welcome audience help, so I doubt any rule was broken.

This would be much unlike the case of collusion on Who Wants to be a Millionaire, in which a coughing confederate in the audience signaled the answers. In that one, if the show could prove the coughing correlated with the answers, which I think they did, I would favor disqualifying the player.

I attended a TPIR taping once when Barker was still hosting. It was a lot of fun. The contestants are indeed screened, but your time talking to the producer is limited to about 20-30 seconds. So they pretty much know right away if you have the look/demographic/attitude/etc that they are looking for. They ahve to get thru people fast since they have 300 people to 'interview'.

The Pages (the interns in the red CBS sports jackets) go thru the line collecting ID's, SSN's, etc in the morning before the audience is admitted to the studio.

Seating is typically in the order you are in line. So if that guy was in line first every day, he would be in the front row all the time.


I also attended a Millionaire (with Merideth Viera) taping once and had a good time at that as well. Mrs. Slyther and I were pulled aside and sat in a specific location (down stage from the contestant/host) that they would use when the contestant 'Asked the Audience'. But the camera man yelled at me for holding the device in the wrong hand so it didn't show up well. :)

Quote: slyther

I also attended a Millionaire (with Merideth Viera) taping once and had a good time at that as well. Mrs. Slyther and I were pulled aside and sat in a specific location (down stage from the contestant/host) that they would use when the contestant 'Asked the Audience'. But the camera man yelled at me for holding the device in the wrong hand so it didn't show up well. :)

I've wondered for a long time about the audience lifeline in Millionaire. Do you have to answer if you don't know? Do they indicate what you are supposed to do if you don't know the answer. I've noticed that sometimes the majority in the audience is wrong. Other times the majority is right, but only marginally. If the goal of the audience was to truly help the contestant, then I think each person should only answer if he is 99%+ sure he is right. Lots of times there are trick questions, where many audience members may get it wrong for the same reason. There is probably a good math problem to be found in this dilemma.

The audience is not given any instruction other than how to operate the device. When they 'Ask the Audience' the 4 buttons on each device light up and you press the one you want and it locks in. If you dont press anything in the alotted time then they continue to stay lit until the production folks lock them out. I presume any devices that don't register an answer are disregarded. In fact, mine wasn't working...it continued to act as if I had not selected an answer.

At my 2 episodes the contestants asked the audience 3 times I believe, and we were right on 2 of them. The 3rd one a large majority got it wrong. (I felt bad because I gave the wrong answer to my seat neighbors who asked my advice)

I think I read somewhere that in some other countries the audience intentionally answers incorrectly to try to throw off the contestant.

** I should note that the taping I attended was Fall 2001 in the New York Studio (WABC-TV).

One other note: The allotted time given to the audience is edited. On TV it looks like about 5 seconds when it was actually more like 15.

Quote: slyther

The audience is not given any instruction other than how to operate the device....

Thanks. I find certain game shows fascinating studies in human nature. The poll the audience lifeline is one of them. As I wrote before, if the audience collectively wanted to help the contestant, they would only answer if they truly KNEW the answer. Of course, they don't. Everybody thinks he/she is smarter than the average other person in the audience, so his/her own educated guess is more likely to be right than the audience majority. For that reason, I would think that almost everybody votes in every question.

So, what should you do if you know that everybody else in the audience is going to vote for that reason? I think you should still only vote if you KNOW you're right. If you guess, and you're wrong, there is a good chance lots of other audience members will make the same wrong guess for exactly the same reason you did. You would only be contributing to the problem, and drowning out the voice of those who truly know the answer.

Just out of curiosity, what was the question the audience got wrong in your taping?

Quote: Wizard

I've wondered for a long time about the audience lifeline in Millionaire. Do you have to answer if you don't know? Do they indicate what you are supposed to do if you don't know the answer. I've noticed that sometimes the majority in the audience is wrong. Other times the majority is right, but only marginally. If the goal of the audience was to truly help the contestant, then I think each person should only answer if he is 99%+ sure he is right. Lots of times there are trick questions, where many audience members may get it wrong for the same reason. There is probably a good math problem to be found in this dilemma.

I was also at a taping, with Regis in 2000, and it was the 3rd contestant to actually win the $1 million. I don't know what would have happened if you didn't choose, but I'd guess they wouldn't use your data in the chart. When I was on, I'm pretty sure there were no lights on the Fastest Finger controller. It was just 4 buttons and there wasn't any indicator when you chose. We always thought that the correct order of lifelines was: Audience, Phone, 50/50. The Audience lifeline becomes increasingly meaningless as the questions get harder. If you aren't 100% sure of an answer early on, use the audience. If it's a "well-known" fact that just happens to escape your knowledge, it's a great lifeline. Once you pass $16k, the questions are less general knowledge and the audience is less likely to KNOW it as a group. The phone a friend is good for specific stuff that someone you might know could be helpful with. The 50/50 is the only FACTUAL assistance that will not completely steer you wrong, so it is valuable at all levels, including $1 million.

Other show notes: The rules were not strict back then, and you could spend as much time as you wanted on any question. The young man (Joe Trella?) spent at least 5 minutes on several questions leading up to the $1 million, and spent about 35 minutes contemplating answering the last question. All were edited down for the airing, and he actually only spent a couple of minutes on the air debating whether or not to answer. There were a couple of times when the producers had to "cut" during a question being out there, and the producers immediately yelled "QUESTION IN PLAY...." and several people surrounded the contestant so he couldn't turn to anyone for help. We were also required to be silent during this down time.

Because it was an episode where someone won big, it's on GSN frequently. After Trella won the money, the next contestant to win fastest finger was right in front of me. Even though I didn't know him, he turned around and gave me a big high five on national TV. Almost every time the program airs somewhere, I get an email from someone asking me if I was ever in the audience of Millionaire. And it was 10 years ago!

Thanks, good story. I've always wanted to at least watch a game show in the audience. Once I did, but it was a lame show around 1980 that lasted a few months only.

For what it's worth, I think proper strategy on Millionaire is to not waste your lifelines early. The strategy should be to win a high amount or go bust trying.

Quote: cclub79

Because it was an episode where someone won big, it's on GSN frequently. After Trella won the money, the next contestant to win fastest finger was right in front of me. Even though I didn't know him, he turned around and gave me a big high five on national TV. Almost every time the program airs somewhere, I get an email from someone asking me if I was ever in the audience of Millionaire. And it was 10 years ago!

That's awesome! People who were actually on the game shows don't have so much notoriety.

Quote: Wizard

Just out of curiosity, what was the question the audience got wrong in your taping?

I think I still have the episode on video tape at home, I'll see if I can find it. (Mrs. Slyther has corrected me: we attended the taping in Spring of 2005.. my how time flies!)

It was so much easier when "contestants" were given the answers in advance... :P

Quote: slyther

I think I still have the episode on video tape at home, I'll see if I can find it. (Mrs. Slyther has corrected me: we attended the taping in Spring of 2005.. my how time flies!)

Thanks, but don't go to any trouble. I was just curious, it isn't important.