The Evil Empire: Harrah's Corporation's values

This discussion of Harrah's business model was sparked by the review recently posted on this site of the flagship Harrah's casino.

>I didn't know there was any Gaming regulation prohibiting that.
I'm sure he knew. Its merely an example of the arrogance of Harrahs.

>coffee maker, a rarity in Vegas
Someday I'd like to see just why these hotels (Harrah's properties and non-Harrah's properties alike) enjoy annoying their customers by making them trek down to the lobby-area Starbucks for their morning coffee. Is it that the mba types have decreed coffee grounds are too time consuming for the housekeeping staff to clean? Is it that mba types think if a man has to get up and get out of his room early for coffee he will head to the casino with his money rather than head back to his room with a cardboard tray laden with coffee and patries for his wife? I think the two most common complaints involve lack of a coffee maker and the presence of a previous guest's 3:00am alarm setting!

>I think they could be spending more on maintaining the roof.
Probably not enough money left over from the various executive salaries and leveraged buyouts for them to repair the roof. The asset is the corporate shares, not the roof.

>59% of blackjack tables at Harrah’s are the dreadful 6 to 5
>That increases the house edge to 16.67% on both. Ouch!
An ouch felt only by a knowledgeable player. How many of those would be at Harrahs? Ofcourse there are probably a few non-Harrahs casinos that seem to lack knowledgable players.

>the video poker at Harrah’s is pretty stingy.
Here again, that is simply something that Harrahs can get away with. Most players won't notice, those that do will be too snockered to care and besides... its a real long walk to a non-Harrah's property.

>Stimulus 10 3.37%
>Stimulus 9 13.04%
>the expected return is 3.37%, or a house edge of 96.63%. Jeez!
Well, a sucker born every minute! And Harrah's Corp wants to shear them all.

>Harrah's Total Rewards
>Despite bothering at least a dozen employees in the casino,
>I still do not understand all of what should be available to the public,
That right there is the essence of the Harrah's business model. Even after talking to 12 employees you still don't know what they are doing.

>Never in my entire life have I played so hard to get so little in return.
>It was the biggest display of chincyness I have ever witnessed in any casino.
>It is par for the course to get back 40% of expected losses I got 2% back.
>If I were a legitimate player, I would never return after that insulting experience.
There again, that is Harrah's goal. They know there will be an endless stream of tourists who will think that 2 percent is a good deal, just as there will be an endless stream of tourists who fall for the "6:5" absurdity.

Don't play at Harrah's properties if you even in the slightest bit a big player. They don't like high-rollers. I can't stress that enough. They don't even like medium-rollers. If you aren't a minnow don't give your gambling business to the Harrah's enterprise. They have built their empire on the low-volume, high-margin player.

Edit: Of course they LOVE stupid, mega-whales like Terry Watanabe. If you are dumb, drunk rich guy who tips well, I'm sure Harrah's would be glad to accomodate you.

If you are low-end gambler however, the Harrah's series of casinos are a great way to stay mid-strip at very low rates. I mean, if you can pull in a promotion at the Paris for $50/night and do the $20 trick to get the Bellagio fountain views, you're mid-strip for about $200 for 3 nights. I play once a year with a gambling budget of about $1,000 and I still get the promotions for the $37/$67 weekend nights at the Paris. If I want to stay at Harrahs or Rio, it's usually free.

The last time I was at a Harrahs property (I was a diamond player), the comps credited was so small for the amount of action given, that I complained loudly. I will not play in a Harrahs property any more. Let them treat someone else so shabbily.

Oh, boymimbo, I absolutely agree with you. They are great for getting free/discounted rooms. I have gotten more than my fair share from them. The only problem is that they cut you off once they realize that:
(a) you aren't giving them any play in LV when you stay there because their games suck.
(b) you are a knowledgeable player who only plays low-margin games and you don't make enough money for the house.
(c) you give them more action than they want to accept
And then you start getting treated like the poster above and the Wizard's at Harrah's.

I stayed at a Harrah's property last year and will likely do so again this year. The prices you get online by logging in with your Total "Rewards" card are just too good (for me at any rate), and the location is really good. I can also speak highly of the Harrah's shuttle service. I took the Paris to Rio trip and back twice in one day with a minnimum of waiting (at that it might ahve been faster to use public transportation, but the shuttle is free). All four drivers were curteous and helpful.

But I've noticed I lose all my points every year, not that I accumulate many to begin with, and their games mostly suck, as has been pointed out. In any case the only Harrah's casinos I really like are Paris and Caesars. IP's too noisy, and the others are unremarkable in every way.

So for a long craps session I'm plannign this year, I think I'll head to the Stratosphere for the 10X odds, or Main Street Station for the 20X. I know Casino Royales offers 100X, but I don't like their casino much. I would have anyway, since all other strip and Downtown casinos pretty much offer only 2,3,5X at best. But I'm open to suggestions on where to send my VP and slot allotment.

Eastside Cannery is 100x odds also though I understand its off somewhere well away from the strip. Good luck.

Quote: Nareed

I'm open to suggestions on where to send my VP and slot allotment.

Palms.

Quote: FleaStiff

Eastside Cannery is 100x odds also though I understand its off somewhere well away from the strip. Good luck.

More importantly they will give you 100X on a $3 bet, whereas Casino Royale wants $5. It is right next door to Sam's Town about 6 miles from the strip. It is actually a very nice looking casino with a rooftop bar.

Cannery owns two properties in Vegas, manages one, and manages a racino outside of Pittsburgh.

Harrah's drop from $3.6 billion to $2.6 billion from 2007 to 2009 is pretty severe. In the last 25 months slot revenue has dropped 21% while TWENTY ONE revenue has dropped 32% on the strip. I think Harrah's has a lot to do with that. They are increasing house edge but trashing the game.

Quote: pacomartin

Harrah's drop from $3.6 billion to $2.6 billion from 2007 to 2009 is pretty severe. In the last 25 months slot revenue has dropped 21% while TWENTY ONE revenue has dropped 32% on the strip. I think Harrah's has a lot to do with that. They are increasing house edge but trashing the game.

If The Evil Empire is so skilled at shearing its sheep but still attracting additional sheep to visit their various shearing sheds is Harrahs really trashing the game. I don't mean just blackjack, but all table games?

Some people have used the phrase Too Big To Fail in relation to Harrahs, but I wonder. If you bleed the entire industry as well as your own customers does that improve the prospects for a disguised failure?

Is the Deutsche Bank owned casino, The Cosmopolitan, an example of a failure?
Its commercial featured Cougars, Half-naked waiters, a woman atop a piano, chickens and kittens ... and nary a shot of a craps table or blackjack table. Cosmopolitan did not want gamblers. Cosmopolitan certainly did not get gamblers. They have put all their emphasis into hotels rooms, events, pool parties, Night clubs and Day clubs. The money for the new and well-appointed Cosmopolitan is equivalent to that of the Riviera, a dump. There Secret Pizza gets more publicity than their slot program.
Has Vegas already failed and Deutche Bank acknowledged this secretly by trying to make money running a hotel and nightclub and not really making any effort in their casino. They've got the yuppies and twitterers, they've got the glitterati types.

The real gamblers in Vegas are the investors in Harrahs. And I think perhaps Harrahs may demonstrate that they are once again the world's number-one shearers.

Quote: FleaStiff

have used the phrase Too Big To Fail in relation to Harrahs, but I wonder. If you bleed the entire industry as well as your own customers does that improve the prospects for a disguised failure?

Is the Deutsche Bank owned casino, The Cosmopolitan, an example of a failure?
Its commercial featured Cougars, Half-naked waiters, a woman atop a piano, chickens and kittens ... and nary a shot of a craps table or blackjack table. Cosmopolitan did not want gamblers. Cosmopolitan certainly did not get gamblers. They have put all their emphasis into hotels rooms, events, pool parties, Night clubs and Day clubs. The money for the new and well-appointed Cosmopolitan is equivalent to that of the Riviera, a dump. There Secret Pizza gets more publicity than their slot program.
Has Vegas already failed and Deutche Bank acknowledged this secretly by trying to make money running a hotel and nightclub and not really making any effort in their casino. They've got the yuppies and twitterers, they've got the glitterati types.

The real gamblers in Vegas are the investors in Harrahs. And I think perhaps Harrahs may demonstrate that they are once again the world's number-one shearers.

Ceasars Corporation is pretty big, but only about 21% of it's revenue comes from Vegas. In Vegas both their gaming and their non-gaming revenue is dropping at the same rate. They want more non-gaming revenue, hence the desire to put in a park behind Imperial Palace to include the giant ferris wheel.

The Cosmopolitan, is being touted as a success, but I think it is a being sold.
While food, beverage is fairly high, it is not overwhelming amount of money considering the huge cost of building the resort. The gaming revenue at $250K per day is below what Alliante Station made it's first few weeks.

People in Vegas been hearing about a ferris wheel for a decade. Maybe it will finally materialize. It will be a crowd magnet and might improve revenue in the casino a bit as well but probably not by much.

Cosmopolitan aimed at the Yuppie Market and got it. It didn't get much in gambling. I don't know if it wanted it or not. Heck of alot of marketing effort went into everything but the casino. Gotta be a reason for that.

I just wonder with all this Non-Gaming revenue emphasis Harrahs is skimming far more than just the cream.

Quote: FleaStiff

Cosmopolitan aimed at the Yuppie Market and got it. It didn't get much in gambling. I don't know if it wanted it or not. Heck of alot of marketing effort went into everything but the casino. Gotta be a reason for that.

When it was being conceptualized they thought that there would be a huge market for wealthy people who wanted a second home in Las Vegas. The thought was they were going to sell those condominiums in Cosmopolitan and City Center for a lot of money. That would justify the construction cost.

But both City Center and Cosmopolitan went wildly over budget. Hotel revenue can never make up for the huge loss in expected revenue from condo sales.
The press release in April 2005 which was the month the Wynn opened, said the resort was going to cost $1.5 billion and have 1700 condominiums. When the company (3700 Associates, LLC) was formed April 2004, I am willing to bet they were projecting at least $2 billion in condo sales. They expected to be open in early 2008 (when the Palazzo opened).

So it is difficult to say what their expectations were as far as gaming. To me that gaming revenue is shockingly low. Total revenue is below the median of the 23 major casino/resorts on the strip.

The gaming commission doesn't tell you which casino is the median (11th ranked) of the 23 casinos. My best guess at the median is either the 11 year old Palms or the 18 year old Treasure Island. Remember that Phill Ruffin only paid $775 million for TI.

	MGM Resorts Inc
1	ARIA RESORT & CASINO
2	BELLAGIO
3	MANDALAY BAY RESORT & CASINO
4	MGM GRAND HOTEL/CASINO
5	MIRAGE, THE
6	EXCALIBUR HOTEL AND CASINO
7	MONTE CARLO RESORT & CASINO
8	NEW YORK - NEW YORK HOTEL & CASINO
9	LUXOR HOTEL AND CASINO
	Ceasars Inc
10	CAESARS PALACE
11	PARIS LAS VEGAS
12	PLANET HOLLYWOOD RESORT & CASINO
13	BALLY'S LAS VEGAS
14	FLAMINGO LAS VEGAS/O'SHEAS
15	HARRAH'S CASINO HOTEL LAS VEGAS
16	RIO SUITE HOTEL & CASINO
	Other Corporations
17	VENETIAN CASINO RESORT
18	WYNN LAS VEGAS
19	GOLD COAST HOTEL AND CASINO
20	LAS VEGAS HILTON
21	PALMS CASINO RESORT
22	TREASURE ISLAND
23	PALACE STATION HOTEL (in City of LV)

Quote: Nareed

Main Street Station for the 20X... But I'm open to suggestions on where to send my VP and slot allotment.

Take a look at MSS for the VP as well.

Quote: kp

Take a look at MSS for the VP as well.

Yeah MSS is a good place to send your VP allotment.

Quote: kp

Take a look at MSS for the VP as well.

Really old thread :)

For my now dead trip <sniff> I'd decided to stay at MSS and play the hell out of their VP and craps. With a possible side trip to Palms.

Maybe next year <sigh>

I love Harrah's. They let me stay at the Rio for free. I play $25 pai gow mostly, which is kind of like loitering. I may only get $10 - $20 a day in comps, but that is after the free room. The pool is great, the 'bevertainers' are a joy to order from, and the dealers have always been friendly. My last time there the Asia Poker game was a giant AP opportunity which I thoroughly enjoyed taking advantage of. I played at my usual low level in New Orleans and now am on that mailing list for great offers, too.

Quote: SOOPOO

I play $25 pai gow mostly, which is kind of like loitering.

I guess you are referring to the fact that so many Pai Gow Tiles hands are Pushes.
> I may only get $10 - $20 a day in comps, but that is after the free room.
How many hours and how many dollars at risk does that take though?

Quote: pacomartin

To me that gaming revenue is shockingly low

Yes. And the most shocking thing seems to be that its low because the owners decided to run a hotel, nightclub and restaurant place rather than a casino. The clear emphasis is that they've given up on the gambling market. I think they have chosen to accept that Yuppies come to Vegas to party now, not to gamble.

Quote: FleaStiff

I think they have chosen to accept that Yuppies come to Vegas to party now, not to gamble.

This is an excerpt from a sailing magazine, but I was struck by how it made me think of Las Vegas.

What are we doing wrong in this country? Even before the recession, much of our recreational boating industry was experiencing tough times. ... the boatbuilding industry has been chasing baby boomers into ever larger and more expensive boats with seemingly no strategy for what to do when these people are finally too old to sail. We have people who are firing up the sailors of the future and renewing the lifeblood of our sport, yet they are rigging leaking 30-year-old dinghies with clothesline.

Okay. The excerpt related to sailboats but I kept thinking of gambling. The same thing is happening. The casinos are increasingly geriatric casinos and all the yuppies are at the topless pools and the various nightclubs. And the casinos seem to want it that way.

.....