Dishwashers a Scam

Dishwashers a scam, says the Wizard,

Quote: Wizard

Is it just me or does anything else think that we're all suckers to use dishwashers?

Here are the reasons I think dishwashers are a scam.

1. If you want clean dishes in the end, you have to pre-clean (or what we called "jump" at camp) the dishes before putting them in.
2. Trying to fit everything in efficiently becomes a three-dimensional geometry puzzle.
3. There is an additional fuss unloading the dishwasher.
4. Sometimes you're not sure if the dishes in the machine are dirty or clean and waiting to be removed.
5. The cost of electricity to run the machine.

As long as you're pre-cleaing the dishes anyway, you may as well take the extra minutes and just fully clean them.

Don't tell me that some washers don't require pre-cleaning. I'll believe that when I see it with my own eyes.

link to original post

I never gave a reply to this old post, but I can contribute now. Pretty old so maybe best to start a new thread; some people already replied if you want to check it out in the old thread, link above.

The pandemic created shortages and delays that still impact things, and we have had to wait a little longer to replace a defunct dishwasher than you usually have to. Having long been the chief bottle-washer of the household, this gave me a real taste of what it’s like to wash all the dishes by hand.

As the Wizard mentions, it might be debatable whether it’s actually just as easy, or nearly as easy, to wash the dishes yourself. After all it’s still work to scrape and rinse the dishes. That it is plenty of work just loading and unloading is undeniable. And, yes, are those dishes clean or dirty? The Wizard points all these things out and also mentions the electricity, which I guess can be seen as an additional expense which may not be canceled out by any savings on hot water as some recent advertisements on TV have strongly suggested*, see below.

So after going weeks waiting for the new unit, this has given me plenty of time to think about the matter. Pretty soon I realized the major benefit of a dishwasher is that it allows you to get the dishes clean in phases. Yes, it’s a pain to load the dishwasher, but you don’t have to immediately unload it, in fact unless you have a huge family, or guests, you’re probably going to get to go 2 days or so before you have to run it. Including snacks and smaller lunches and so on, that could mean up to 6 or so times you might have found yourself doing the whole process including putting dishes away that can now instead be postponed with the dishwasher. Furthermore, those times you do not immediately clean the dishes doing it all yourself means plates have time to harden the food on them. Though this is true with a dishwasher, the problem is automatically taken care of with the way it works. I have decided that this is the worst part of washing dishes by hand: so much soaking has to go on first. I’ve actually found a big pot to use, as plugging the sink and filling it up is not easy due to our particular drain design.

The matter of economics: I guess I could try to estimate how much hot water I’m using, but instead, guessing, it has to be several gallons more than a modern dishwasher uses to do a full load. The government really presses manufacturers to make them better and better at saving water.** Take that to a possible extreme, and say 10 gallons. A google search says it costs 2 cents or so per gallon to heat water. If that is out of date, surely 30 cents is the outside range of what is likely the savings every two days. Umm, subtracting no cost for electricity here ….

Friends, assuming I’m not missing something, I’m sorry to say I doubt that your dishwasher is saving you any money, that commercial notwithstanding. If your area has water shortages, you are saving that I think, and maybe 10 gallons of water starts to cost too, I don’t know. I can tell you that when we shopped for dishwashers there were some models costing $1000 in stock and some people were buying them. If you looked at the $500 ones you saw a certain expression on your wife’s face [and the salesman’s]. If you only pay $200 for delivery/installation [and removal] you got a bargain. Well, our parents got appliances that lasted 20 years minimum, so that would help, right? Modern appliances, however, do not last like that. Our defunct dishwasher is at most 6-7 years old. If 7, I get savings on hot water of $383, and I’m trying to favor the numbers that make the dishwasher look good. If you can get one to go 12 years, you’d save $657; in constant dollars anyway. Good luck.

To keep this from TLDR syndrome, I’ll keep from harping more on overly complicated, computerized, untrustworthy modern appliances. I’ll just mention we now get the extended warranties on appliances. We didn’t used to, that has changed. And go for the long one, another $100 for you to pay.

I’m ready to say I’m ready for a new dishwasher alright. But it’s a luxury, and I’m cheap enough to wonder about that.



* oddly they mention only water savings, not *hot water* savings, which changes it from a trivial matter to a measurable matter … if you are someone who cares about energy savings. Not surprisingly, Cascade detergent seems to be more behind the commercial than the dishwasher manufacturer. I don’t think they make a good argument, btw: it still has to be better to wait until the dishwasher is full if you are trying to save hot water!

** the last dishwasher we had ran for hours and hours, which apparently is what makes it possible to save more water. You don’t get to choose a water waster, which would be fine for us … no water problems

Most dishwashers tend to use very little water in the wash cycle, but just keep reusing that same water. It’s the rinse cycle that uses more water. But the total water used is still much less than the amount of water used during a hand wash. And that’s not even counting the amount of water that just goes right down the drain while you’re busy scrubbing.

Supposedly, the cost of the electricity and water used to run a dishwasher is still less that the cost of just water needed to wash them by hand.

Also, apparently dishwashers are way better at "sterilizing" dishes than just washing with soap and water.

I have an amazing dishwasher, but I don't know how well she actually cleans the dishes, they look clean to me.

Tiger and DJ are correct. Using a dishwasher uses less time, water, and energy than doing dishes by hand. Maybe it's because I've always lived in houses that had/have a dishwasher (college apartments excepted) and learned at my mother's elbow, whose motto was "there's always room for one more dish in the dishwasher", I've found using a dishwasher easy and convenient and far less tedious than doing dishes by hand. My dirty dishes multiply like tribbles on Star Trek, so a dishwasher is practically indispensable.

Scrape loose food off dishes into the garbage disposal, the garbage or the compost pile, do not pre-rinse.

Stack the dishes, bowls, cups and glass, silverware and food prep items according to the instructions.

Run the hot water just until hot water comes out of the tap.

Fill with detergent set the dishwasher to normal cycle, Steri-rinse and air dry.

Find yourself with plenty of time after dinner to spend time with the fam or do something else other than the drudgery of hand washing dishes!

Quote: GenoDRPh

Tiger and DJ are correct. Using a dishwasher uses less time, water, and energy than doing dishes by hand.
link to original post

Maybe they save water and energy, but there's no way it's faster... I can do a sink full of dishes by hand in 15-20 minutes, but it takes the dishwasher an hour.

As someone who finds himself without a dishwasher for the first time in decades, I can't tell you how much I miss one. Handwashing takes longer, can be gross, and uses way more water. I recently bought 500 disposable plates and depending on what I eat, I might wash and reuse them a few times.
I'm looking at RV dishwashers but most don't have good reviews.

I’ve only lived in homes with a dishwasher for a grand total of 3 years. I thought it was a fantastic appliance. Infinitely better than in-unit washer and dryer.

I've always hand-washed even when I've had a dishwasher, but maybe my dishwashers have all just sucked.

Having a washer/dryer is great but if I could only have one I'd go with the dishwasher

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: GenoDRPh

Tiger and DJ are correct. Using a dishwasher uses less time, water, and energy than doing dishes by hand.
link to original post

Maybe they save water and energy, but there's no way it's faster... I can do a sink full of dishes by hand in 15-20 minutes, but it takes the dishwasher an hour.
link to original post

The comparison is how long you spend hand washing dishes vs loading the dishwasher.

Dishwashers are for people that don't have dogs.

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: GenoDRPh

Tiger and DJ are correct. Using a dishwasher uses less time, water, and energy than doing dishes by hand.
link to original post

Maybe they save water and energy, but there's no way it's faster... I can do a sink full of dishes by hand in 15-20 minutes, but it takes the dishwasher an hour.
link to original post

How long does it take someone to do a full dishwasher's load of dishes by hand instead of stacking the dishwasher?

Doing dishes by hand means standing in front of the sink and doing the dishes for however long it takes to do the dishes. At least with the dishwasher, once stacked and started to run, frees the user up to go do something else. But, to each his own. I have family members who are adamant about doing dishes by hand, like its some kind of badge of honor.

Quote: unJon

The comparison is how long you spend hand washing dishes vs loading the dishwasher.
link to original post

I agree with this! I have forced myself to not pre-wash dishes except for the ones that have stuck-on food or grease.

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: GenoDRPh

Tiger and DJ are correct. Using a dishwasher uses less time, water, and energy than doing dishes by hand.
link to original post

Maybe they save water and energy, but there's no way it's faster... I can do a sink full of dishes by hand in 15-20 minutes, but it takes the dishwasher an hour.
link to original post

How long does it take someone to do a full dishwasher's load of dishes by hand instead of stacking the dishwasher?

Doing dishes by hand means standing in front of the sink and doing the dishes for however long it takes to do the dishes. At least with the dishwasher, once stacked and started to run, frees the user up to go do something else. But, to each his own. I have family members who are adamant about doing dishes by hand, like its some kind of badge of honor.
link to original post

I don't want to be pedantic, but can we all agree on how we define, "Doing the dishes?"

For example, I should assume that we could ignore putting the dishes away, because that must be done in both cases. However, I would argue that the process of putting the dishes away is both faster and easier (on the back) from the dish rack as compared to the dishwasher.

Furthermore, some people use a dish rack and others hand dry the dishes. I use a dish rack. If someone hand dries the dishes and considers that part of, "Doing the dishes," then the process will (all else equal) be longer for them than it is for me.

I would say a full dishwasher equivalent of dishes would take me 12-15 minutes. In my opinion, the dishwasher does not save time. There's simply too much pre-washing that has to be done, particularly with pots, pans, baking sheets, etc...

Another hassle with the dishwasher, which I suppose can depend on a variety of factors, is having too many dishes to do in one wash. There's nothing worse! I want ALL of the dishes to be done, so when that would happen, I would end up hand washing dishes anyway, just not as many.

I just think whatever little difference of effort expended, if any such even exists, is not worth the other hassles. Besides, if I hand wash them, then I know they are clean.

Also, Ivory Ultra Concentrated. Remember where you heard that first!

https://www.target.com/p/ivory-ultra-concentrated-dish-washing-liquid-soap-classic-scent-24-fl-oz/-/A-13044011

(Send me free shizz for that P&G!)

Someone turned me on to a Dawn Spray-On that works great.

By hand my entire life. I tend to hand wash the dishes I dirty while cooking as I cook. Then after eating the only dishes left are a few plates, silverware and maybe a pan or skillet. Only takes a few minutes.

I have a brand new dishwasher (wife insisted we replace the old one that came with house when we remolded. I wanted to add a couple slide out shelves) We have never used it. And no I don’t leave dishes for the wife. I do most the cooking and dish washing.

Dishes are virtually never allowed to “sleep in the sink” to quote an old friend G. Nkimbi.

Disposable picnic utensils is the answer for the ultimately lazy way. Then all you have to clean is actual pots or pans.

Quote: rxwine

Disposable picnic utensils is the answer for the ultimately lazy way. Then all you have to clean is actual pots or pans.
link to original post

I have had remarkable success with disposable pans as well.

This basically leaves me a sharp knife to hand wash, which usually takes less time than my typical 9 second web search.

If we have a party or event going on, then I'll let the help just deal with it and put my dishes by the sink.

But otherwise, I'm the type who likes to clean up after himself, and as well I don't like anything to pile up.

So, if I'm doing the cooking I'll hand wash some of the bowls, plates knives, cooking utensils, as I go along. (Like linksjunkie.) It's just a reflex action, I want them clean right then and there, and I don't want a pile of dirty stuff in the sink when I am done. I might even hand wash my own dish before the meal is even over, as in my salad bowl before I finish my entree that's on a plate. I'm obsessive about getting things done as I go along like that.

Over all I'd say that I hand wash more often than I use the dishwasher.

If my wife is cooking, she tends to pile stuff up until it's all over, as in the entire meal is over. At that point she'll rinse everything and stick everything in the dishwasher, not because she has to, but because she picked up the habit from me (before she picked up the habit from me she was like linksjunkie's wife and left it all for someone else to do). Half the time the help has to rearrange stuff in the dishwasher because she piled it in a way where one item might block water's getting to another, but still, she does do it. Wife is not into hand washing - feels that this what dishwashers are for.

Bottom line is that with hand washing you know everything is 100% clean and done right then. I don't dry dishes after hand washing them unless I need that particular dish, pot, utensil immediately - I put them in the rack to dry. With the dishwasher, it's left to a future time. And some pots and pans for example, if they have nonstick coatings on them, should not be placed in the dishwasher at all especially if it is set for a heated dry, because the hot water or hot air will ruin the coating.

The trick to making a dishwasher work well, other than that it should be a good one, is to make sure that the dishes bowls and everything else are placed in the dishwasher such that they don't overlap vertically, so no water spray is blocked from reaching them, to run the hot water to get it hot in the sink before turning the dishwasher on, and to use some kind of high quality dishwashing detergent like Cascade platinum ActionPac pods.



I don't know what's in those pods, but they're like a charm, and it voiks.

Plus you have to keep something like this in the machine, to help prevent spots.



There is no question that hand washing dishes uses a lot more water than a dishwasher does, especially if the dishwasher is run always full, but still I think you do need to rinse the items at least some before placing them in the dishwasher. I have heard that dishwashers clean better when the dishes have some grease or food left on them, but it's hard for me to get used to putting dishes in there without rinsing them off at least some.

https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/home/cleaning/a33322/stop-prerinsing-dishes/
Your dishes need to be dirty for the dishwasher detergent to do its job. The makers of the dish detergent Cascade discourage customers from pre-washing or rinsing dishes because it actually inhibits the cleaner from working.

Quote: Mission146

I don't want to be pedantic, but can we all agree on how we define, "Doing the dishes?"

For example, I should assume that we could ignore putting the dishes away, because that must be done in both cases. However, I would argue that the process of putting the dishes away is both faster and easier (on the back) from the dish rack as compared to the dishwasher.

Furthermore, some people use a dish rack and others hand dry the dishes. I use a dish rack. If someone hand dries the dishes and considers that part of, "Doing the dishes," then the process will (all else equal) be longer for them than it is for me.

I would say a full dishwasher equivalent of dishes would take me 12-15 minutes. In my opinion, the dishwasher does not save time. There's simply too much pre-washing that has to be done, particularly with pots, pans, baking sheets, etc...

Another hassle with the dishwasher, which I suppose can depend on a variety of factors, is having too many dishes to do in one wash. There's nothing worse! I want ALL of the dishes to be done, so when that would happen, I would end up hand washing dishes anyway, just not as many.

I just think whatever little difference of effort expended, if any such even exists, is not worth the other hassles. Besides, if I hand wash them, then I know they are clean.
link to original post

Did Mrs. Joeman put you up to this? I am firmly in the dishwasher camp, and she is firmly in the hand-wash camp. These are some of her exact arguments!

Short story:
Growing up, we didn't have a functioning dishwasher in the house until I was about 13, so we were a hand-wash family. My Mom did the dishes sometimes, and when she didn't, it fell to my older sister (and sometimes me, when I got older). One time when I was about 8, my sister was complaining about how long it took to do the dishes, and my Dad told her it should only take her 10 minutes.

After a brief discussion, they came up with a bet. My Dad would do the dishes after the next meal. If he could do it in 10 minutes, my sister would have to do the dishes for the entire next week. If not, my Dad would have to do the dishes for the week.

My sister ended up winning the bet. I remember that we seemed to eat out a lot during that next week!

Quote: linksjunkie

By hand my entire life. I tend to hand wash the dishes I dirty while cooking as I cook. Then after eating the only dishes left are a few plates, silverware and maybe a pan or skillet. Only takes a few minutes.

I have a brand new dishwasher (wife insisted we replace the old one that came with house when we remolded. I wanted to add a couple slide out shelves) We have never used it. And no I don’t leave dishes for the wife. I do most the cooking and dish washing.

Dishes are virtually never allowed to “sleep in the sink” to quote an old friend G. Nkimbi.
link to original post

Every time you soak a dish overnight, an angel gets their wings

I went on a lot about whether or not it saves money , so it's possible to miss my main point, which is that I have concluded that the best thing about a dishwasher is that it allows you to do the work in phases, instead of constantly having the chore in front of you. This is certainly fresh on my mind ... ymmv

Quote: Mission146

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: GenoDRPh

Tiger and DJ are correct. Using a dishwasher uses less time, water, and energy than doing dishes by hand.
link to original post

Maybe they save water and energy, but there's no way it's faster... I can do a sink full of dishes by hand in 15-20 minutes, but it takes the dishwasher an hour.
link to original post

How long does it take someone to do a full dishwasher's load of dishes by hand instead of stacking the dishwasher?

Doing dishes by hand means standing in front of the sink and doing the dishes for however long it takes to do the dishes. At least with the dishwasher, once stacked and started to run, frees the user up to go do something else. But, to each his own. I have family members who are adamant about doing dishes by hand, like its some kind of badge of honor.
link to original post

I don't want to be pedantic, but can we all agree on how we define, "Doing the dishes?"

For example, I should assume that we could ignore putting the dishes away, because that must be done in both cases. However, I would argue that the process of putting the dishes away is both faster and easier (on the back) from the dish rack as compared to the dishwasher.

Furthermore, some people use a dish rack and others hand dry the dishes. I use a dish rack. If someone hand dries the dishes and considers that part of, "Doing the dishes," then the process will (all else equal) be longer for them than it is for me.

I would say a full dishwasher equivalent of dishes would take me 12-15 minutes. In my opinion, the dishwasher does not save time. There's simply too much pre-washing that has to be done, particularly with pots, pans, baking sheets, etc...

Another hassle with the dishwasher, which I suppose can depend on a variety of factors, is having too many dishes to do in one wash. There's nothing worse! I want ALL of the dishes to be done, so when that would happen, I would end up hand washing dishes anyway, just not as many.

I just think whatever little difference of effort expended, if any such even exists, is not worth the other hassles. Besides, if I hand wash them, then I know they are clean.
link to original post

Running through the dishwasher makes dishes cleaner.

Done properly, there's no pre-washing involved at all, Indeed, all detergent and dishwasher manufacturers recommend not to pre-wash dishes, The chemicals and the enzymes in the detergents work best when they have food to latch on to. That doesn't happen with pre-washed dishes. Scrape and load.

Dishwasher capacities range from 10 to 16 place settings – so that would translate to between 100 to 160 items of varying shapes and sizes. I'd legit pay to see someone do 100 items of hand washing (i.e. a full dishwasher equivalent)-complete with sterilizing according to NSF standards-in 12-15 minutes, all while using less water, energy and counter space or dish rack space than running a full dishwasher on normal cycle with the sterilize cycle.

But, as I mentioned, to each his own.

I feel like silverware really runs the score up on that statistic!

I stand by everything I said, as quoted in the OP. However, I should have added that using a dishwasher doesn't guarantee the dish gets clean. I've seen it many times where a part of a dish didn't get hit. The usual response to that from the other side is, "You didn't angle the dishes correctly." However, I'm too lazy to figure out the correct way to load a dishwasher and I'm surely not going to read the manual.

Quote: unJon

The comparison is how long you spend hand washing dishes vs loading the dishwasher.
link to original post

It depends on if you want to compare "manual labor time" or "time before dishes are clean." Sometimes the latter is more important.

Quote: Wizard

I stand by everything I said, as quoted in the OP. However, I should have added that using a dishwasher doesn't guarantee the dish gets clean. I've seen it many times where a part of a dish didn't get hit. The usual response to that from the other side is, "You didn't angle the dishes correctly." However, I'm too lazy to figure out the correct way to load a dishwasher and I'm surely not going to read the manual.
link to original post

I think the only thing you have to reconsider is the electricity waste. At least I can say that I have become convinced that modern dishwashers use considerably less hot water, maybe making energy waste a wash [no pun intended].

In all other matters, you have a good point. For me, I find it less work due to the phasing you can do.

I think I made it clear replacement means you will approach $1000 these days, and can exceed that easily. Is that good use of a grand? I'm still questioning that.

Quote: Mission146

I feel like silverware really runs the score up on that statistic!
link to original post

Yeah, that 100 to 160 figure sounds crazy high, even with silverware. I am almost certain my dishwasher won't hold nearly that much. I'll have to check tonight when I get home.

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: unJon

The comparison is how long you spend hand washing dishes vs loading the dishwasher.
link to original post

It depends on if you want to compare "manual labor time" or "time before dishes are clean." Sometimes the latter is more important.
link to original post

Fair point. The presence of a dishwasher does not foreclose the ability to hand wash dishes, but the absence of a dishwasher does foreclose the possibility of a machine wash.

Just to be clear, I use a dishwasher like 99% of the time. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate.

Quote: Wizard

I stand by everything I said, as quoted in the OP. However, I should have added that using a dishwasher doesn't guarantee the dish gets clean. I've seen it many times where a part of a dish didn't get hit. The usual response to that from the other side is, "You didn't angle the dishes correctly." However, I'm too lazy to figure out the correct way to load a dishwasher and I'm surely not going to read the manual.
link to original post

It isn't the appliance's fault the hand washers or the Luddites aren't using it correctly, Can we quantify "many times"?

Unless the dishwasher is ancient, no pre-clean or pre-wash needed. That's the old way of doing things. New technology=new way of doing things. The engineers who design and build them and the chemists who design and make the detergents have made our lives and the drain on our wallets much easier.

Following the instructions makes proper loading easy and efficient. No geometry or puzzle solving skills necessary.

Unloading no more time consuming than putting hand washed dishes away.

The energy required to make a dishwasher, deliver it to the store, then deliver it to your home, then install it, then heat the water to wash each load and the electricity to run the machine is much less than the energy needed to heat the more voluminous amount of water to wash the same dishes by hand. Modern dishwashers also use somewhere in the low to mid single digits of water to wash the dishes. Try hand washing and rinsing and sterilizing to NSF standards the equivalent number of dishes using less than 10 gallons of water.
e cost of electricity to run the machine.

That being said, to each his own.

Quote: GenoDRPh

Try hand washing and rinsing and sterilizing to NSF standards the equivalent number of dishes using less than 10 gallons of water.
link to original post

I can understand in a restaurant, but do I need to clean my home dishes to NSF standards??

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: Wizard

I stand by everything I said, as quoted in the OP. However, I should have added that using a dishwasher doesn't guarantee the dish gets clean. I've seen it many times where a part of a dish didn't get hit. The usual response to that from the other side is, "You didn't angle the dishes correctly." However, I'm too lazy to figure out the correct way to load a dishwasher and I'm surely not going to read the manual.
link to original post

It isn't the appliance's fault the hand washers or the Luddites aren't using it correctly, Can we quantify "many times"?

Unless the dishwasher is ancient, no pre-clean or pre-wash needed. That's the old way of doing things. New technology=new way of doing things. The engineers who design and build them and the chemists who design and make the detergents have made our lives and the drain on our wallets much easier.

Following the instructions makes proper loading easy and efficient. No geometry or puzzle solving skills necessary.

Unloading no more time consuming than putting hand washed dishes away.

The energy required to make a dishwasher, deliver it to the store, then deliver it to your home, then install it, then heat the water to wash each load and the electricity to run the machine is much less than the energy needed to heat the more voluminous amount of water to wash the same dishes by hand. Modern dishwashers also use somewhere in the low to mid single digits of water to wash the dishes. Try hand washing and rinsing and sterilizing to NSF standards the equivalent number of dishes using less than 10 gallons of water.
e cost of electricity to run the machine.

That being said, to each his own.
link to original post

You should factor in the storage lost to the dishwasher and the trips to the store needed because of the lost space.

My wife made me buy a $900 dishwasher. I was skeptical but it really does an amazing job.

My household only has 2 people so we wash by hand, if we have company or family over then we use the dishwasher.

When I join the park residents for community dinners, I end up as part of a three-person dishwashing crew, and it is almost enjoyable.

Quote: billryan

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: Wizard

I stand by everything I said, as quoted in the OP. However, I should have added that using a dishwasher doesn't guarantee the dish gets clean. I've seen it many times where a part of a dish didn't get hit. The usual response to that from the other side is, "You didn't angle the dishes correctly." However, I'm too lazy to figure out the correct way to load a dishwasher and I'm surely not going to read the manual.
link to original post

It isn't the appliance's fault the hand washers or the Luddites aren't using it correctly, Can we quantify "many times"?

Unless the dishwasher is ancient, no pre-clean or pre-wash needed. That's the old way of doing things. New technology=new way of doing things. The engineers who design and build them and the chemists who design and make the detergents have made our lives and the drain on our wallets much easier.

Following the instructions makes proper loading easy and efficient. No geometry or puzzle solving skills necessary.

Unloading no more time consuming than putting hand washed dishes away.

The energy required to make a dishwasher, deliver it to the store, then deliver it to your home, then install it, then heat the water to wash each load and the electricity to run the machine is much less than the energy needed to heat the more voluminous amount of water to wash the same dishes by hand. Modern dishwashers also use somewhere in the low to mid single digits of water to wash the dishes. Try hand washing and rinsing and sterilizing to NSF standards the equivalent number of dishes using less than 10 gallons of water.
e cost of electricity to run the machine.

That being said, to each his own.
link to original post

You should factor in the storage lost to the dishwasher and the trips to the store needed because of the lost space.
link to original post

It's a more than fair trade off. One can always find someplace else in a domicile to store canned goods and boxes of dried pasta in exchange for the massive convenience and ease of a dishwasher.

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: GenoDRPh

Try hand washing and rinsing and sterilizing to NSF standards the equivalent number of dishes using less than 10 gallons of water.
link to original post

I can understand in a restaurant, but do I need to clean my home dishes to NSF standards??
link to original post

Cleaning removes dirt, grime and some critters, but doesn't' kill the wee beasties.

Quote: Wizard

I stand by everything I said, as quoted in the OP. However, I should have added that using a dishwasher doesn't guarantee the dish gets clean. I've seen it many times where a part of a dish didn't get hit. The usual response to that from the other side is, "You didn't angle the dishes correctly." However, I'm too lazy to figure out the correct way to load a dishwasher and I'm surely not going to read the manual.
link to original post

I have had very good luck with 3 simple guidelines:

• The dirty side of the dish should face the squirter in the middle.
• Leave a space empty between dishes.
• Don't stick concave items in the corners where the squirter can't reach.

This is what the senior dishwashing staff taught me decades ago. It has never really let me down.
My housemates don't follow these guidelines, overload the machine by cramming too much in, and the dishes don't come out clean.

I’m with Wizard. I can wash them by hand much faster than pre-washing, loading and unloading a dishwasher

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: GenoDRPh

Try hand washing and rinsing and sterilizing to NSF standards the equivalent number of dishes using less than 10 gallons of water.

link to original post

I can understand in a restaurant, but do I need to clean my home dishes to NSF standards??

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Cleaning removes dirt, grime and some critters, but doesn't' kill the wee beasties.

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This bothers me enough to give my 2 cents.

Anybody who thinks you need to sterilize the dishes has been misled somewhere. It could be from commercials aimed at women, who, these companies have discovered, are terrified about bacteria. It could be from advice you still get from the USDA etc that still insists you do this, though they use the word 'sanitize' [you can't really sterilize without special equipment]. So, yes, you are able to point to the latter to dismiss what I have to say. All I will say is these same experts never point to food-borne illness sources or incidents where homes were observing the most minimal precautions ... ie washing the dishes sufficiently and not wiping them dry with towels.*

Way back when if your public water source was not chlorinated, washing in very hot water, I believe, was recommended in the US. I wouldn’t argue with that. Otherwise, friends, if you are getting all the food off and rinsing the plates, plus air drying, nobody is going to get sick eating off those hand-washed dishes.

*

Quote: google search

Why should you not dry dishes with a towel?

"At home, it's always better to air dry your dishes than to use a dish towel, because a dish towel can harbor all sorts of bacteria. You wipe your hands with it, you use it to dry the counter, and then you use it to dry the dishes!" Mercer agrees. "Air-drying is best. Aug 17, 2001 [from WebMD]

Quote: DRich

My wife made me buy a $900 dishwasher. I was skeptical but it really does an amazing job.
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Probably very quiet too

I did a little study and it looks like my dishwasher averages about 60 items per load, maybe 70 if there's a lot of silverware. I earlier said I could do all that in 20 minutes or less. That means I would have to wash AND dry 3 items per minute, or 20 seconds each. That might work with small items such as silverware or small dishes, but things like bowls, glasses, pots, etc. would take much longer. So, I probably couldn't wash a full load by hand in the time I said I could.

There is still some sort of "tipping point," though... Obviously if I have exactly one item to clean, it is faster and more efficient to do it by hand than put that one item in a dishwasher and run a full cleaning cycle. At some point it would take the same amount of time and energy to do X amount of items by hand and dishwasher, but who knows what that cutoff point is... 10 items? 20 items? Then it's just better to use the dishwasher.

Quote: TigerWu

I did a little study and it looks like my dishwasher averages about 60 items per load, maybe 70 if there's a lot of silverware. I earlier said I could do all that in 20 minutes or less. That means I would have to wash AND dry 3 items per minute, or 20 seconds each. That might work with small items such as silverware or small dishes, but things like bowls, glasses, pots, etc. would take much longer. So, I probably couldn't wash a full load by hand in the time I said I could.

There is still some sort of "tipping point," though... Obviously if I have exactly one item to clean, it is faster and more efficient to do it by hand than put that one item in a dishwasher and run a full cleaning cycle. At some point it would take the same amount of time and energy to do X amount of items by hand and dishwasher, but who knows what that cutoff point is... 10 items? 20 items? Then it's just better to use the dishwasher.
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Wow, you have a lot of stuff in your dishwasher.

I would be surprised it we had 20 items in it on a normal day. I always run it right after dinner no matter how little is in it.

My neighbor has one plate, one glass, one set of silverware. He washes everything as soon as he is done. I briefly tried doing the same, but a lifetime of helping angels get their wings is hard to break.

deleted double post.

Quote: odiousgambit

Quote: Wizard

I stand by everything I said, as quoted in the OP. However, I should have added that using a dishwasher doesn't guarantee the dish gets clean. I've seen it many times where a part of a dish didn't get hit. The usual response to that from the other side is, "You didn't angle the dishes correctly." However, I'm too lazy to figure out the correct way to load a dishwasher and I'm surely not going to read the manual.
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I think the only thing you have to reconsider is the electricity waste. At least I can say that I have become convinced that modern dishwashers use considerably less hot water, maybe making energy waste a wash [no pun intended].

In all other matters, you have a good point. For me, I find it less work due to the phasing you can do.

I think I made it clear replacement means you will approach $1000 these days, and can exceed that easily. Is that good use of a grand? I'm still questioning that.
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That's another good point! Even if we are going to factor in time value, now we have to assign an hourly rate to time, so we arrive at:

Electricity+
Water-
$1000/hourly = x Hours Saved Necessary

There's actually a way to figure this out, I think, but someone is going to need a mostly empty house with a dishwasher in a non cold weather location such that the heat can be shut off without the pipes potentially freezing.

Anyone want to buy a house they don't need right quick and we can do this thing?