Casino's and the General Atmosphere

Naturally, anytime any outfit has to deal with the general public, there are things about that that can make employees surly, and I'm sure I don't know the half of it.

On the other hand, it always strikes me once I get onto the gambling floor ... Craps is what I like ... just how surly indeed the employees can be. Now I'll admit at first I was unaware of proper etiquette, and just how uptight they were going to be about that. Nor did I have a clue that you were supposed to tip. So thanks for sites like the Wizard's that wised me up about all that! I'm not sure I would have ever figured it out otherwise.

But since wising up, it still strikes me that the atmosphere is too stiff. They are paranoid about cheating to a degree that is just stunning, it seems to just be the entire focus, and some kind of common courtesy gets lost fast. I'll never forget getting harassed while just trying to teach my wife how to play. Clearly some kind of collusion was going on! Not that there's ever any help on hand for someone new.

Perhaps the Wizard is with me on this? I noted his objection to the time wasted on seeking out "advantage players" [see link below]. What the heck is the true risk of those few who can do it? Wasn't it finally established that the concern about BlackJack card counters was overblown, and that actually all the hype brought in thousands of people who couldnt pull it off, making the casinos millions? Isn't it just possible getting rid of the surliness would actually attract more players too?

admittedly not necessarily the same thing, but quoting the Wizard:

"This brings to mind a very good book I just read, Casino-ology, by Bill Zender. The main thrust of the book is that casino management is much too paranoid about advantage play. The overreaction to it is slowing down play and annoying legitimate customers, the cost of which is much more than what is saved by catching a few extra advantage players."

this from:
https://wizardofodds.com/askthewizard/234

Thanks for the kind words. Craps players are a very superstitious bunch. They hate it when you say the word “seven” after a point is established. It is hard to teach the game without using that word. Regular players also detest anything that slows down the game. The dealers know the other players don’t like it, so may make you feel unwelcome teaching lessons at the table, lest the regular players get mad at them for allowing it.

As an aside, when I try to teach someone to play craps, I try to get a table to myself. If that isn’t possible, then I speak as quietly as possible. Another good idea I just thought of would be to say the word “seven” in another language when giving the lesson

In my opinion, the worst manners in the casino can be found in the poker room, mainly from the players, but the nasty atmosphere sometimes contaminates the dealers too. I have never seen such a concentration of crybabies, nor heard so many passive aggressive remarks. It is even worse in online games. Of course I’m not saying all poker players are like this, just a disproportionate percentage. Second worst is the sports book. Third is craps.

With respect to Craps, the crews can be very friendly or very surly. It varies widely from casino to casino and even within crews at the same casino. And the crew has to be very strict because there are fourteen spots and center action that have to be watched very carefully to look for cheats and mispays, and there are plenty of them out there. And the craps dealers live for tips so they want to keep the game moving very smoothly and keep the players happy. Some casino patrons like a friendly crew while others like the surly attitude. There are hundreds of craps tables in Vegas so if you don't like one, move on to one that you do.

Craps players are indeed a superstitious bunch because it is really the only game in the casino where you are given the control (throwing the dice) of many people's entertainment and gambling budgets (and I am sure a couple of mortgages here and there). Even though for all cases (except those few and far between dice controllers) the dice throws are completely random so it doesn't matter the dice bounces off chips, hits a hand or a stack of cash. It's just the way the game flows. I've seen complete newbies hit four or five points while all of the experienced players do poorly.

That said, you don't want the other players upset with you so part of learning the game is learning the superstitions and playing along, even though you know that the dice throws are completely random. Those superstitions include:

(1) Never say the dreaded "seven" word unless the puck is off. Say "Big red" instead and/or point to the symbol on the table.
(2) Always keep your hands completely outside of the bowl when the dice are not in the center.
(3) Never throw your money in or color up while the puck is on. The only exception to this is if the play is going extremely slow and your dealer is not doing anything.
(4) If you play the "Don'ts" -- opposite of the rest of the play, don't boast about your wins. "Don't" players are associated with bad luck even though it's a completely valid way to play the game.
(5) Don't place or accept drink orders while you are throwing and the puck is on (any interference with the shooter is bad luck) -- this also is true with significant others approaching or leaving the table while you throw -- this is part of the luck.
(6) Always ask for the same dice if they leave the table, particularly if your throw is going well.
(7) Avoid hitting chips, particularly the stacks next to the dealers.
(8) Don't admit you're a first time thrower if you are male, though female "virgins" are coveted.
(9) Don't be cavalier about your throwing -- look like you're making an effort to hit a point.
(10) Be low key if you are learning the game and try not to slow down the progress of the game by asking too many questions.

These are ones off the top of my head but they are all pure superstitions. There is absolutely no correlation that I can see with any of these superstitions and the roll of the dice. Both shooters and players at the table want to blame outside forces for a poor throw and not the randomness of the dice.

Dealer attitudes are most often a reflection of how they are treated by their supervisors. If their supervisors treat them rudely or harshly that's how they treat the players. Treat them with consideration and respect and that's how they interact with guests. Contrary to all the myths that casino managers believe, the best thing a dealer can do to help the casino's win is to be friendly and keep guests playing longer. (okay, you have to limit mistakes and deal as fast as reasonable too).

Quote: marksolberg

Dealer attitudes are most often a reflection of how they are treated by their supervisors. If their supervisors treat them rudely or harshly that's how they treat the players. Treat them with consideration and respect and that's how they interact with guests. Contrary to all the myths that casino managers believe, the best thing a dealer can do to help the casino's win is to be friendly and keep guests playing longer. (okay, you have to limit mistakes and deal as fast as reasonable too).

Absolutely. Best thing for a casino is to build a rapport with its customers so they keep coming back.

Some casinos have reputations as real "sweat the money" joints. Some places wouldn't even think of slowing the pace down for a newbie. Sometimes its a matter of shifts or a desire for an approaching Early Out and sometimes its just the floorman is a total jerk and the dealers are pissed off at him, but its the players who suffer.

I believe that Tuscany has a policy statement reminding guests that if a dealer is standing at an empty table he is required to answer questions about the game. This not only is designed to encourage visitors to try new games but it tends to take the newbies away from the ongoing serious action at busy tables. This can make everyone happier.

I had a great experience at the Paris casino last time I went to Vegas.

I'd never played craps and wasn't sure I understood the game despite having read about it prior to my vacation. So I'd hang around the craps tables and watched. At one of the tables in Paris I joined a couple who were also watching the game. The dealer near us, who was working his end of the table, went on to explain what was going on and how the game was played. He answered questions, too, all the while taking and paying bets, making change, etc. When it was time for his break, he got his replacement to keep explaining the game to us.

Both dealers also adviced us not to start playing at a table with a $10 minnimum, but rather to look for a $5 or $3 minnimum table (their table was $10) They were both very nice. I dind't play then, but I tipped them. Play or not that was very good service.

Quote: odiousgambit

"This brings to mind a very good book I just read, Casino-ology, by Bill Zender. The main thrust of the book is that casino management is much too paranoid about advantage play. The overreaction to it is slowing down play and annoying legitimate customers, the cost of which is much more than what is saved by catching a few extra advantage players."

I plan to buy that book as soon as I can find a reasonably priced used copy on eBay. But anyways, this all seems to have started way, way back when Howard Hughes started buying up places. In "When the Mob Ran Vegas" they state the the whole atmosphere at the Sands changed from friendly dealers who knew what you drank to a corporate atmosphere where dealers feared not hitting an "expected hands per hour" standard.

Myself I think part of this is the casinos have become too concentrated in corporate ownership. I'd like to see Nevada have some kind of limit, say 2 "supercasinos" (think MGM, Bellagio, etc) and one "small" casino (think O'Sheas, Binions, Slots-A-Fun) in a market. This would make more competition for more players as well as good dealers.

Quote: boymimbo

(5) Don't place or accept drink orders while you are throwing and the puck is on (any interference with the shooter is bad luck) -- this also is true with significant others approaching or leaving the table while you throw -- this is part of the luck.

This reminds me of a time I was playing and the table was turning cold. The dice came to me and I figured I'll throw and if nothing good happens, I'll leave. I usually play the pass line and two come bets with odds. I sevened out on my first throw after establishing the point. Did I leave? No way! This table was so cold, I switched to the dark side. (Something I almost never do because "it's bad luck".) The next shooter, of course, had a great roll. I probably would have made back all my losses and then some. The whole time he is shooting, he's getting drinks and his wife is bugging him. Dice were flying off the table or hitting stacks of chips. People held up the game quibbling over $1 bets. All of those things that are supposed to be bad luck. Well, they were for me, but not for the shooter and everyone else at the table.

Quote: boymimbo

(2) Always keep your hands completely outside of the bowl when the dice are not in the center.

This happened today. I was the shooter. It was a great roll. I had worked $5 pass and come bets with 2x odds up to the full 10x odds. Everyone was having a great time. I picked up the dice and tossed them, and at the other end of the table, somebody reached down making a late bet. One die hit his hand and stopped dead - a six. The other bounced off the wall - a one. Usually at the end of a good roll, the table applauds the shooter. Not this time. It was like ice. Even I was pissed for a few minutes, even though I KNOW that the outcome is random, and that roll could have been a seven anyway. I've seen dice hit hands and end up winners - and everyone sighs in relief, "Whew, we dodged that bullet!"

When it was time for "the hand" to roll, I played the don't, irrationally seeking revenge I guess. But I was right, and won a cool $50 when this guy immediately sevened out.

My experience with casino employees has been mixed. I don't mind if someone will call you out respectfully if you break one of the rules, like once in a blue moon my cards in BJ won't be facing me flush so I'll reach out absentmindedly to push them in line and a split second later realize what I've done and get really embarassed. Sometimes you just get the impression that the dealer actually wanted to embarass you for whatever reason, and getting talked down to by anyone can get you a little steamed. I've only experienced this while playing craps. Then again I've only played craps at the local Indian Casino and the staff there isn't exactly top notch, though there are plenty of BJ dealers that I enjoy talking with while playing.

To me the worst dealers/employees are those who look like they would rather be anywhere else, have no desire to make a little small talk with the players if you are playing a card based game, but just go through the motions until the dealer change. Though I'm not superstitious I'll usually wait until certain dealers leave the table because I just don't have as much fun when I'm picking up on their negative vibe.

It's not that I want to be treated like a whale. But, I do want to have some attention directed towards me. I have lost thousands and thousands and abide by the rules. What annoys me is when pit bosses or to a lesser extent dealers treat me as a non-factor. I mean, I don't expect fake smiles and small talk everytime but I would like them to at least ask how I am doing. If I lose thousands at least ask if I want a comp to a buffet especially after 12+ hours of play.

Quote: FleaStiff

I believe that Tuscany has a policy statement reminding guests that if a dealer is standing at an empty table he is required to answer questions about the game.

Whether the statement is to remind guests to feel free to ask questions of a dealer at an empty table, or the statement is to remind dealers to answer such questions, is irrelevant.

I think it's absurd that such a reminder is necessary.

What dealer, while standing at an empty table, wouldn't welcome a break in the boredom, even if the guest is only asking questions, and doesn't intend to play?

Quote: JustJose

It's not that I want to be treated like a whale. But, I do want to have some attention directed towards me. I have lost thousands and thousands and abide by the rules. What annoys me is when pit bosses or to a lesser extent dealers treat me as a non-factor. I mean, I don't expect fake smiles and small talk everytime but I would like them to at least ask how I am doing. If I lose thousands at least ask if I want a comp to a buffet especially after 12+ hours of play.

I will only play where I feel "appreciated"--which encompasses a bunch of things. Dealers who try to provide good service (remind me of missing bets, etc.) and don't try to keep the game at warp speed. A good, brisk pace is fine with me. Cocktail service on a regular basis. Pit bosses who start to remember names after a few visits (without the card in their hand!). Comps either given or denied with respect and a plan. Simply put, I want good customer service. I will tip regularly and be a good customer if you provide that...

I don't play for comps (though I made that mistake earlier in my travels) but I do expect to understand where my play places me on the comp scale. I don't want to miss available comps any more than I want to play for them...

I think JustJose and most of us want the same thing...to be appreciated as a customer...

The best way to get treated that way is to let people know when things are good and when they are bad. Those that care can change things; those that don't can help us choose where not to play!!

Quote: JustJose

It's not that I want to be treated like a whale. But, I do want to have some attention directed towards me. I have lost thousands and thousands and abide by the rules. What annoys me is when pit bosses or to a lesser extent dealers treat me as a non-factor. I mean, I don't expect fake smiles and small talk everytime but I would like them to at least ask how I am doing. If I lose thousands at least ask if I want a comp to a buffet especially after 12+ hours of play.

JustJose, based on your other thread, your amount of action on 3-card should get you a flood of comps from the bigger casino chains like Harrah's that value that kind of play. Really, you should be getting free hotel rooms and numerous free buffets -- maybe it's time to switch your play?

Its quite true that the way you are treated varies randomly from table to table, even in the same casino. On a given night, one table can be fun, the dealers easy going, loooking to help you out, smile when come and when you leave. You can go to another table 30 minutes later, and its icy stares. Its no different at the BJ tables or anywhere else. On my trip last weekend, I had some dealers that were awesome, and that I enjoyed making bets for. And I had some that I couldn't have cracked a smile with dental pliars. I flat don't tip dealers that won't at least be a bit courteous and jovial....this is a freaking entertainment business afterall. I don't care if I quadrupled my bankroll at your table, if you've been an ass you'll get $0 from me. On the other hand, I'll tip generously with a fun dealer, even if I'm not doing great.

As gamblers, I think this is the only way we can impact the way we are treated. I think too many players tip too much based upon their win/loss. I know its tough to tip when you are down, but even then I'll throw at least a few bucks to a fun dealer.

One thing to consider is how much gaming revenue a casino brings in per casino department employee.

For the Vegas strip that number is:
2009 $225,466
1999 $161,300
1990 $104,201

For Downtown Vegas that number is:
2009 $173,162
1999 $108,713
1990 $87,512

2009 $233,878 Vegas strip casinos over $72 million per year
2009 $258,624 Laughlin
2009 $272,774 Boulder Strip
2009 $290,785 Balance of Clark County (not on Vegas strip, Boulder strip, Downtown or Laughlin)


Now obviously part of that is inflation, but the casino departments on the strip have only 8.1% more employees in 2009 then they did in 1990. Some of it you can credit to automation (like ticket in ticket out machines), but I think the majority of the difference is that the casinos don't care as much about the high touch environment that brings in so much gaming revenue.

Laughlin and Boulder strip make so much per employee because of their heavy reliance on slot machines.


I remember reading that as Japan's economy went into the doldrums over the last two decades, a lot of the people that are paid to fuss over customers were going to have to lose their jobs. People expect girls in white gloves to direct them around, greeters, lots of attention over an expensive meal, etc. I remember a colleague telling me that after a business conference in Japan there was about an hour when a bunch of college girls with an interest in physics were brought in to talk to the attendees. It may be a little sexist, but middle aged men love it.

Old time dealers always talk about "high touch". Face it, gambling is not the smartest thing to do with your money. If there is no positive interaction with people then your better off at an IMAX movie with a good sound system. I am sure that everyone on this forum can remember a specific blackjack dealer that made a day a great deal of fun. You tend to remember those days more than if you won or lost much money.

There seem to be some slots-only places that are small, have nice chairs and loyal customers. Dotty's is a secretive firm that clearly makes money and opens up new places in several states.

Some of the larger casinos such as Arizona Charlies Decatur are slot places with whatever else they need for their license. Some smaller casinos are slot places that have one or two other table games or the like. These places obviously just need cocktail waitresses and someone to polish the screen and vacuum the carpet. They don't need much more in the way of employees. Its slots. And anything else they have is clearly an afterthought.

I wonder if these bar/restaurant/slot-machine joints are simply viewable as slot machine joints with the equivalent of "imported college girls in white gloves"? Its just that in this country the social aspects of the beer and broads is not so orchestrated by management.

My focus is on craps, blackjack, roulette ... not slots. The people who own these casinos seem much smarter and tend to focus on what really brings in the money which seems to be Slots plus "atmosphere-oriented table games".

Ofcourse most of the players are often drunken tourists so maybe after losing their money those tourists think there was a white gloved girl who talked physics to them. Who knows? The tourist may have only dim memories but I guess even those dim memories should be pleasant ones if the casino wants to see the tourist on his next trip. Ofcourse if you own half the casinos in town,,, where else is the tourist going to go but to one of your places? Real white gloves or imaginary white gloves, maybe it doesn't make much difference.

Quote: FleaStiff

There seem to be some slots-only places that are small, have nice chairs and loyal customers. Dotty's is a secretive firm that clearly makes money and opens up new places in several states.

I read a story about Dotty's and the owner who started it. He had hiself quite the business franchise there, all around the west coast.

Quote: ruascott

I read a story about Dotty's and the owner who started it. He had hiself quite the business franchise there, all around the west coast.

I've only been in a Dotty's one time. It looked like your great aunt's living room, but where smoking was appreciated. A very niche market.

Good article about Dotty's.

Quote: teddys

Good article about Dotty's.

Thanks. Shows what a really bare bones operation is. Machines, chairs, some ashtrays, some Windex and paper towels and some basic snacks with a microwave oven and then kick back and let the money roll in. The latest Dottys serves ice cream sodas which in hot weather are probably appreciated.

Maybe those images of laboratory monkeys with electrodes implanted in their brains are not far off the mark. There is no need for music, booze or dealertainers.

West Virginia has TONS of little gaming parlors just like this all over the state, especially in the eastern panhandle. They're all pretty much the same...a bar with cheap bottled beer and 6 or 7 Game King machines, each with 4-5 slot games and 3 or 4 video poker variants.

The VP paytables, from what I can tell, are usually pretty awful. Nonetheless, I know a few friends of friends who manage these places and they say a typical parlor will rake in $2 million a year AFTER taxes...so places like this really fill that market niche in a big way.

Some states limit the prizes to MERCHANDISE from local merchants, not cash... but those "slot" machine parlors then realized that a Loaded Debit Card with 250.00 in value on it constitutes merchandise.

Quote: boymimbo

Those superstitions include:

(1) Never say the dreaded "seven" word unless the puck is off. Say "Big red" instead and/or point to the symbol on the table.
(2) Always keep your hands completely outside of the bowl when the dice are not in the center.
(3) Never throw your money in or color up while the puck is on. The only exception to this is if the play is going extremely slow and your dealer is not doing anything.
(4) If you play the "Don'ts" -- opposite of the rest of the play, don't boast about your wins. "Don't" players are associated with bad luck even though it's a completely valid way to play the game.
(5) Don't place or accept drink orders while you are throwing and the puck is on (any interference with the shooter is bad luck) -- this also is true with significant others approaching or leaving the table while you throw -- this is part of the luck.
(6) Always ask for the same dice if they leave the table, particularly if your throw is going well.
(7) Avoid hitting chips, particularly the stacks next to the dealers.
(8) Don't admit you're a first time thrower if you are male, though female "virgins" are coveted.
(9) Don't be cavalier about your throwing -- look like you're making an effort to hit a point.
(10) Be low key if you are learning the game and try not to slow down the progress of the game by asking too many questions. These are ones off the top of my head but they are all pure superstitions. There is absolutely no correlation that I can see with any of these superstitions and the roll of the dice. Both shooters and players at the table want to blame outside forces for a poor throw and not the randomness of the dice.

Great list and all true. My greatest one is the cocktail waitress touching your shoulder during a throw. Sure sign of a bad throw. I counter it by saying Bad luck go away three times while tapping wood three times. It works. Aria does not allow drinks to be served during a throw. The best reason to play there.

Quote: OneAngryDwarf

West Virginia has TONS of little gaming parlors just like this all over the state, especially in the eastern panhandle. They're all pretty much the same...a bar with cheap bottled beer and 6 or 7 Game King machines, each with 4-5 slot games and 3 or 4 video poker variants.

The VP paytables, from what I can tell, are usually pretty awful. Nonetheless, I know a few friends of friends who manage these places and they say a typical parlor will rake in $2 million a year AFTER taxes...so places like this really fill that market niche in a big way.

Several years ago i played some slot games at a private country club in northern WV. They had a room set up with maybe 8 machines. I was playing in a 2 day member-guest event, and the machines were pretty popular, and I seemed to somehow win everytime I played. You'd take the TITO into the pro-shop and the golf pro would pay you out. I didn't know if there was some kind of legal loophole since it was a private club or not, but found it interesting.

Quote: RonC

I will only play where I feel "appreciated"--which encompasses a bunch of things. Dealers who try to provide good service (remind me of missing bets, etc.) and don't try to keep the game at warp speed. A good, brisk pace is fine with me. Cocktail service on a regular basis. Pit bosses who start to remember names after a few visits (without the card in their hand!). Comps either given or denied with respect and a plan. Simply put, I want good customer service. I will tip regularly and be a good customer if you provide that...

This thread got me thinking... Some of my absolute BEST times at the blackjack table were at Binion's, back before they got swallowed by Harrah's. They used to have the coolest old guy there dealing... Fred, I think his name was. Guy looked to be about 80 if he was a day, but he was ALWAYS the nicest dealer on the floor. Had a good word for everybody, and you just KNEW you were gonna have a good time at his table. Was happy to help new players out, always had a relevant, fun story about "the good old days".

I'd be surprised if he's still there, but does anyone else remember this dealer? He belongs in the Hall of Fame, in my opinion!

I didn't discover Binion's nor downtown in general until the late 90's. The atmosphere in the old side of Binion's (the original Binion's, not the Mint side) just couldn't be beat. Low ceilings, dim lighting, and easy comps in that wonderful old coffee shop downstairs. Everyone had been working there forever, and most seemed very content.

When the coffee shop closed in about 2001, and no one was quite sure why, or knew when it would reopen, that pretty much marked the beginning of the end.