RonC
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January 9th, 2016 at 5:33:28 AM permalink
Quote: RS

And no one is saying that after 17 consecutive yos, the odds of the 18th roll being a yo is 1 in 3.9e22. It's still 1 in 18 (for that specific roll, #18).

What we're saying is the combination of ALL 18 rolls being a yo is 1 in 3.9e22.



Yes, if 18 yo's in a row did happen (again, I do not think it did but i do not think Alan is insane either), the odds before the first one happened were 1 in 3.9e22. Once the first yo happened, what happens to the odds?
teliot
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January 9th, 2016 at 7:05:35 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

I am sorry that you take offense to the term "mathletes".

Mathletes here is like "Math Boyz" over at John Patrick's site. You don't hear the mathematically minded here using the phrase. It is a term used, in its best form, to describe a middle-school math club. I am a former professor of mathematics, not a "mathlete." Mike is an Actuary, not a "mathlete." And so on for the other accomplished mathematicians here.
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GWAE
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January 9th, 2016 at 8:42:47 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

Mathletes here is like "Math Boyz" over at John Patrick's site. You don't hear the mathematically minded here using the phrase. It is a term used, in its best form, to describe a middle-school math club. I am a former professor of mathematics, not a "mathlete." Mike is an Actuary, not a "mathlete." And so on for the other accomplished mathematicians here.



I am curious if other math proficient people feel the same way. I have used mathletes many times and never once have I meant it as an insult.
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RonC
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January 9th, 2016 at 8:54:02 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

Mathletes here is like "Math Boyz" over at John Patrick's site. You don't hear the mathematically minded here using the phrase. It is a term used, in its best form, to describe a middle-school math club. I am a former professor of mathematics, not a "mathlete." Mike is an Actuary, not a "mathlete." And so on for the other accomplished mathematicians here.



You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I respect the distinguished records of so many accomplished mathematicians here and I used, and explained my usage of, the term to describe those who have the highest degree of proficiency in the discipline. I would not use the term to describe myself any more than I would use the term "athlete" to describe myself. People at that level (the professional level that many here are at) are worthy of special recognition of their talents and the term, the way I use it, simply describes you and others as special in that you do things others can't in the field of math.

It is used to describe the group, not you individually.

If I throw out a term that COULD offend someone, that person still has to decide to BE offended. In my opinion, too many people chose to be offended by things that are in no way meant to offend them.

I applaud your hard work in a tough discipline.
teliot
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January 9th, 2016 at 9:05:52 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

No. It is not a term that is appropriate to use as descriptive for professional mathematicians, period. In its proper usage it refers to grade-school students who compete, as I mentioned above.

http://neologisms.rice.edu/index.php?a=term&d=1&t=3867

https://www.google.com/search?q=mathlete+meaning&oq=mathlete+meaning&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.2511j0j4&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mathlete

https://www.wordnik.com/words/mathlete

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mathlete
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RonC
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January 9th, 2016 at 9:19:58 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

No. It is not a term that is appropriate to use as descriptive for professional mathematicians, period.

http://neologisms.rice.edu/index.php?a=term&d=1&t=3867

https://www.google.com/search?q=mathlete+meaning&oq=mathlete+meaning&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.2511j0j4&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mathlete

https://www.wordnik.com/words/mathlete

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mathlete



So? The word is used here (at least by me) to describe folks who are members that have exceptional skills in mathematics. I think most, if not all, who use it feel the same way. They have no doubt that your math is right or that you will work as hard as you can to find the correct answer if a particular problem is under discussion. We can disagree with whether or not something happened, but we can't really disagree on the math once all the folks who know the discipline have reviewed the problem (if there was discussion about how it should be done).

Again, you have to decide to be insulted or offended. If Mike bans the term, fine, but it isn't like anyone is calling you names or worse.
teliot
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January 9th, 2016 at 9:24:42 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

Again, you have to decide to be insulted or offended. If Mike bans the term, fine, but it isn't like anyone is calling you names or worse.

I am not offended. Some here use it do so purposefully to demean mathematics and mathematicians who disagree with their uneducated opinions. Others use it out of ignorance. No one here uses it correctly. If you want to pretend the word has some other meaning than it does, that's yours to do, but don't go telling me it is respectful in any way to professionals, because it's not. I am not some 13 year old who just mastered the quadratic equation.
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SOOPOO
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January 9th, 2016 at 9:28:37 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

Mathletes here is like "Math Boyz" over at John Patrick's site. You don't hear the mathematically minded here using the phrase. It is a term used, in its best form, to describe a middle-school math club. I am a former professor of mathematics, not a "mathlete." Mike is an Actuary, not a "mathlete." And so on for the other accomplished mathematicians here.



In high school I was captain of our Math Team. We really had one, and participated in city wide competitions. Our team nickname was the "Bayside Radicals". I had an artist friend of mine design T shirts for us, with the word Bayside encompassed in a 'radical' sign. As captain, I got to wear the coveted number 'pi'. I guess I was a 'mathlete'!!!!!

By the way.... my high school was theoretically the High School used in the TV show, "The White Shadow".
Wizard
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January 9th, 2016 at 11:47:35 AM permalink
My opinion on the term "mathlete" is that it depends on the context. Used in a nice way, I would take it as a combination of compliment and term of endearment. Used in a nasty way, I would take it to mean nerdy and childish. The terms they use at John Patrick's site are much worse by comparison.
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RonC
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January 9th, 2016 at 12:10:51 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

My opinion on the term "mathlete" is that it depends on the context. Used in a nice way, I would take it as a combination of compliment and term of endearment. Used in a nasty way, I would take it to mean nerdy and childish. The terms they use at John Patrick's site are much worse by comparison.



Thank you for a very reasonable position on the word.
teliot
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January 9th, 2016 at 12:34:08 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

It's a shot of some mathlete's preparing to feast on your failed superstition.

Quote: EvenBob

Can, meet the worms. Every time this is brought up on gambling forums the mathletes go berzerk. Expect the same reaction here.

Quote: EvenBob

They have all kinds of math for everything, except for where to place the next bet. For that they have nothing, not even a good guess. We all know it's possible to win in the short term, we've all done it. For how to sustain wins in the short term the mathletes are mute.

Quote: aceofspades

Exactly what I propose here - let the mathletes post a TR so we can all see their real world results using their math.

Quote: aceofspades

The mathletes will NEVER believe you …trust me

Quote: ThatDonGuy

I was captain of my Mathletes team in high school.

Quote: OnceDear

Alan's own forum, he tacitly admits that his motivation for spouting such nonesense here was as much about winding up us 'mathletes' as anything else.

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Dalex64
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January 9th, 2016 at 1:43:29 PM permalink
It might be interesting to plot how well you think someone understands gaming math against whether or not they seem to use the word as a term of endearment or derision. Is there a correlation between the two?
AxelWolf
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January 9th, 2016 at 2:37:29 PM permalink
Quote: Dalex64

It might be interesting to plot how well you think someone understands gaming math against whether or not they seem to use the word as a term of endearment or derision. Is there a correlation between the two?

Sounds like a poll/new thread.

It's obvious what the persons intentions are when they use the word. It sounds like most of the community has the same view on the word and has adopted a second meaning.

It's normally only the system players and people with outrageous unbelievable stories that use it in a derogatory fashion.

I think when you're talking about math guys in general it's fine to use the word, however if you're talking about or addressing an accomplished math individual you should use a more respectable term, if respect is intended.
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RonC
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January 9th, 2016 at 3:03:49 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Sounds like a poll/new thread.

It's obvious what the persons intentions are when they use the word. It sounds like most of the community has the same view on the word and has adopted a second meaning.

It's normally only the system players and people with outrageous unbelievable stories that use it in a derogatory fashion.

I think when you're talking about math guys in general it's fine to use the word, however if you're talking about or addressing an accomplished math individual you should use a more respectable term, if respect is intended.



Could everyone please list the title that they would like used when they are addressed individually?
RonC
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January 9th, 2016 at 3:06:23 PM permalink
Quote: Dalex64

It might be interesting to plot how well you think someone understands gaming math against whether or not they seem to use the word as a term of endearment or derision. Is there a correlation between the two?



I understand gaming math much better than I did before I came to this site. The esteemed and respected mathematicians that are here continue to help me learn more and more about both math and, specifically, gaming math.
Wizard
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January 9th, 2016 at 3:37:08 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

Could everyone please list the title that they would like used when they are addressed individually?



"The Wiz" is fine for me.



Quote: RonC

I understand gaming math much better than I did before I came to this site. The esteemed and respected mathematicians that are here continue to help me learn more and more about both math and, specifically, gaming math.



Thank you very much.
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teliot
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January 9th, 2016 at 4:07:24 PM permalink
From what I can tell, the first usage of "mathlete" on this site was this post from evenbob:

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/21424-albert-einstein-on-math/

"Can, meet the worms. Every time this is brought up on gambling forums the mathletes go berzerk. Expect the same reaction here."

If it was used before this time, the "search" feature on this website won't locate it.

As I pointed out in the quotes above, AceOfSpades jumped on the negative usage bandwagon, and included it in his signature for many months, primarily in objection to the intelligent arguments made against his absurd claim that he lost 30 hands in a row. It was a kind of bullying. I was surprised that he got away with it - openly offending and mocking his host like that.

The word is not an offensive term if used in the right way - referencing middle and high-school math clubs in competitions. It can certainly be assigned a new meaning, I have no problem with that. But, it does not have a new meaning by default. It means two things -- grade-school math clubs that compete and,

http://neologisms.rice.edu/index.php?a=term&d=1&t=3867

"Derogatory description of an individual who spends most of his/her time doing academic-related work. Synonyms: Nerd, dork, geek ..."

If someone has researched the etymology of the word and can point to an alternate *common* usage (other than what people here claim), that would be great. But, those are the two meanings. Which do you think evenbob and AceOfSpades were using?
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AxelWolf
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January 9th, 2016 at 4:28:25 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

It can certainly be assigned a new meaning, I have no problem with that. But, it does not have a new meaning by default.



because the majority thought it was good they said, Let it be so.

You brought to much attention to the word. Now people will use it, if not for good, just to piss you off.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
teliot
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January 9th, 2016 at 4:46:19 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

You brought to much attention to the word. Now people will use it, if not for good, just to piss you off.

Funny.
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RS
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January 9th, 2016 at 5:02:01 PM permalink
I think it would only properly be used as an insult. But someone might mistakenly think it's a term of endearment or praise and use it as such.
rxwine
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January 9th, 2016 at 5:05:07 PM permalink
What if you're called a "special mathlete?"
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
ThatDonGuy
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January 9th, 2016 at 6:14:35 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

Mathletes here is like "Math Boyz" over at John Patrick's site. You don't hear the mathematically minded here using the phrase. It is a term used, in its best form, to describe a middle-school math club. I am a former professor of mathematics, not a "mathlete." Mike is an Actuary, not a "mathlete." And so on for the other accomplished mathematicians here.


To be fair, I was captain of my high school mathletes team (in fact, most math competitions I have seen are at the high school level)...36 years ago.

Is there a proper term for those of us who seem to be wise in the ways of mathematics? I for one would probably say something like "mathoids" or "math types" or even "math heads" (before realizing that last one is a little close to "meth heads").
teliot
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January 9th, 2016 at 6:17:29 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Is there a proper term for those of us who seem to be wise in the ways of mathematics?

Mathematician

But I get your point. I know more about physics (specifically, cosmology) than most lay people, but I would never call myself a physicist. I sometimes call myself a "closet physicist."
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EvenBob
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January 9th, 2016 at 6:36:08 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

From what I can tell, the first usage of "mathlete" on this site was this post from evenbob:



I used it because I don't consider it
derogatory, like MathBoyz. On
some gambling forums, like JP's,
some math people can be very
condescending and judgmental.
They get a bad reputation for
talking down to people who don't
have the math education they do.
Which is funny because math people
have a reputation for being the worst
gamblers. They know too much of
what makes the game work and tend
not to trust their instincts. I read that
in two places, one was in Munchkin's
book, and the other might have been
a Grosjean article. And he's a mathlete
himself.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
djatc
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January 9th, 2016 at 6:49:42 PM permalink
My grandma says mathlete all the time, im taking the word back!

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mcallister3200
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January 9th, 2016 at 6:53:33 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

My grandma says mathlete all the time, im taking the word back!

5 internet cookies for the first person to id the movie.


Clerks 2.
Boom.

I actually thought about making a taking back reference earlier in the thread
ThatDonGuy
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January 9th, 2016 at 8:17:15 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

Mathematician

But I get your point. I know more about physics (specifically, cosmology) than most lay people, but I would never call myself a physicist. I sometimes call myself a "closet physicist."


Exactly - a "mathemetician" is someone whose profession is mathematics. That leaves me out; I am a computer scientist.
MathExtremist
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January 9th, 2016 at 8:27:35 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Is there a proper term for those of us who seem to be wise in the ways of mathematics?

I'd use "numerate" because the opposite, "innumerate," covers both ignorance of math as well as hostility to it.
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MathExtremist
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January 9th, 2016 at 8:48:04 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Exactly - a "mathemetician" is someone whose profession is mathematics. That leaves me out; I am a computer scientist.

I think that's overly restrictive; one can be a mathematician (or musician or gardener or chemist) without ever getting paid. I know lots of musicians who don't get paid much, if at all. I'm one of them. :)

And computer science is an offshoot of applied math anyway, at least theoretical CS is. If you prove P=NP you'll get paid by Clay Mathematics Institute, the same organization that has a bounty on the Riemann Hypothesis.
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Ibeatyouraces
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January 9th, 2016 at 8:55:10 PM permalink
It's only offensive if you let it be.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
CrystalMath
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January 9th, 2016 at 9:17:52 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

It's only offensive if you let it be.



As is any word, but we all know some words are intended to be offensive.

The only time I've seen mathlete use here, it seems to mean "people who use sound mathematics to disprove what I already know is the truth."

I guess I'm not a mathlete, because I'm not about to waste my time disproving betting systems.
I heart Crystal Math.
RonC
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January 10th, 2016 at 4:00:10 AM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

As is any word, but we all know some words are intended to be offensive.



The same word used by different people, or even the same people in different contexts, can be respectful or insulting. It is how the word is used, not merely the word.

Also, one must choose to be offended. Some people feel a great need to be offended and find offense in every little thing. Others understand that a word is a word and it is not necessarily there for the sole purpose of offending them.

Quote: CrystalMath

The only time I've seen mathlete use here, it seems to mean "people who use sound mathematics to disprove what I already know is the truth."



The interesting thing is that in certain cases it doesn't really prove the truth; it only proves that the event is very highly unlikely to have happened as remembered. No one really "disproved" the 18 yo's in a row thing--they simply proved that it was very likely that it did not happen because the math shows how it is nearly impossible. Nearly impossible, of course, is not the same as impossible.

Some mathematically exceptional people used that as a reason to insult another member. Others just sad they "thought" it didn't happen based on the math. They could not really say it didn't happen, since it is at least possible.

I still think it didn't happen or his memory of what happen has expanded the number of times the yo was rolled, but I am not calling him names or a liar.

Quote: CrystalMath

I guess I'm not a mathlete, because I'm not about to waste my time disproving betting systems.



It seems that you don't have to do it because you know enough about systems to know that they don't work as long as the game has a house advantage on every bet. I don't have to do that math, either, so it does not matter whether I could or could not do it. It doesn't take a highly trained mathematician to use the work of the Wiz and the Professor (and Ginger and Mary Ann and many others) to know a system will not work. Unless the system somehow includes a bet with a positive edge for the player, it can't work in the "long run."
teliot
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January 10th, 2016 at 6:52:24 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

Also, one must choose to be offended.

There are plenty of offensive words that you and I are not personally offended by. I am not personally offended when I hear someone use the N-word, but I know that it is a highly inappropriate offensive word in many contexts.

Quote:

The interesting thing is that in certain cases it doesn't really prove the truth;

This proof would easily hold up in any court of law, which has the standard "beyond any reasonable doubt." There is no such thing as absolute proof in the physical word. For example, you can't prove that there is not a tea cup in orbit around the planet Mars (the so-called "Russell's Teapot"). In other words, in the case of extraordinary claims, it is up to the claimant to offer proof.

Quote:

Some mathematically exceptional people used that as a reason to insult another member.

No person here who has a modicum of mathematical skill has ever used the term to insult someone else.

Quote:

I still think it didn't happen or his memory of what happen has expanded the number of times the yo was rolled, but I am not calling him names or a liar.

He, like AoS, isn't a liar. He, like AoS, just has a false memory.
Last edited by: teliot on Jan 10, 2016
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DMSCR
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January 10th, 2016 at 7:31:09 AM permalink
Sensitivity Training 101 at its very finest. Hahahahaha.....
djatc
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January 10th, 2016 at 2:32:28 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Clerks 2.
Boom.

I actually thought about making a taking back reference earlier in the thread



You win 5 internet cookies.

Your name reminds me of the movie home alone.
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