Mosca
Mosca
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September 20th, 2014 at 5:33:20 AM permalink
Last night sitting with the host wasn't the time or place to argue, but I will make my case by email and hope for the best.

Playing UTH and following the WoO strategy, a bettor will wager a little bit over 4 units per hand on the ante/blind. I was betting $10 as a unit. Add that to the trips bet and I wagered a little bit over $50 per hand.

Atlantis is looking for $50 average table bet and 4 hours of play per night, or 4 hours of slot play @ $3 per bet.

So when I went to see a host to see if I could get something off my bill, and better offers, she told be that I was rated at $35 per bet.

I still talked $100 off my bill. But I feel like arguing this one. It's probably something policy to rate UTH in some base bet way. But I have some ammo with WoO.
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FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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September 20th, 2014 at 6:16:59 AM permalink
Good luck but you made your case in this post quite well: short and seeet. You could have and should have said the same thing at the time. Its not an argument until your tone and persistence make it so. A modest statement that the Atlantis is at the very least dealing as fast an average casino gives the host a time to reflect on what his above average casino is doing.

Speak up then... and whether or not the situation is rectified, speak about it here.
Mosca
Mosca
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September 20th, 2014 at 7:15:14 AM permalink
At checkout this morning, the discount was 10%, not $100, so I believe my pleasant demeanor got me a bit extra. I'm happy with that for the current trip. My case is for offers going forward, so time is on my side, we aren't going back until next spring or summer.
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beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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September 20th, 2014 at 7:53:31 AM permalink
Quote: Mosca

Last night sitting with the host wasn't the time or place to argue, but I will make my case by email and hope for the best.

Playing UTH and following the WoO strategy, a bettor will wager a little bit over 4 units per hand on the ante/blind. I was betting $10 as a unit. Add that to the trips bet and I wagered a little bit over $50 per hand.

Atlantis is looking for $50 average table bet and 4 hours of play per night, or 4 hours of slot play @ $3 per bet.

So when I went to see a host to see if I could get something off my bill, and better offers, she told be that I was rated at $35 per bet.

I still talked $100 off my bill. But I feel like arguing this one. It's probably something policy to rate UTH in some base bet way. But I have some ammo with WoO.



That's pretty marginal rating on their part, I agree. They're only giving you an average of 1x bet in the back; I play the same strategy, and I would estimate it's slightly over 2x on average, even considering folds. Should be relatively easy to figure out, though. And you've piqued my curiosity; think I'll try and calculate it.

Edit: Actually, the Wizard made this specific calculation on the UTH page of WoO; perhaps you can refer them there. From the page:





Bet Type Average
Wager
Average
Pays
Average
Win
Ante 1 -0.165757 -0.165757
Blind 1 -0.314685 -0.314685
Play 2.152252 0.213076 0.458593
Total 4.152252 -0.02185


UTH

Pleased I got the estimate right, though perhaps it's from studying the page. Thanks, Mike!
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
tongni
tongni
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September 20th, 2014 at 1:59:53 PM permalink
Casino ratings are pretty misunderstood, and very subjective, both from the supervisor and casino point of view, let me explain.

It doesn't really matter what rating you get, so long as the calculated HA is generous. For example, at a CET property you would be rated at $65/hr, but it calculates the advantage at about $8-10/hr, so using a small fraction of your average bet as the expected loss. At a local property, they would rate you at $15, but give you $15/hr in expected loss. Each casino has rules as to how they are supposed to rate you. What you are really looking for is someone who does not rate you according to the guidelines the casino has set for how players are supposed to be rated - since there are so many different carnival games, it's hard to keep them all straight.

FWIW, if the casino's policy was to give you $10x6 and then $5 for the trips, you'd be underrated, because it dilutes the value of your trips bet, assuming that the HA they used was correct given their rating system.

In most casino games (UTH included) the advertised HA is off a single bet, the ante. So in reality, you are losing like 2% of $10 40 times an hour on your ante + whatever the trips bet HA is x your bet. Should have bet $15 on the ante and $0 on the trips and you'd have been almost there.
Mosca
Mosca
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September 21st, 2014 at 10:11:37 AM permalink
Here is my letter to Atlantis:

Quote:

Good Day to you Ms Xxxxxxx, I hope you are doing well today. I want to thank you again for the consideration you gave us toward our bill. We went home discussing when we would be returning!

I spoke with you in the casino Friday evening, asking you about how I rated. The pit personnel had me rated at $35 per hand. I knew I was higher, but didn't have the data to justify it while we were talking.

When playing Ultimate Texas Hold'em, most players put out the ante, blind, trips, and flop bets, and then check twice and either raise 1x or fold. This strategy will result in an average of about 3.5 units per hand, or $35 when betting $10 per space, as I was.

However, I bet 4x on the first decision when holding Q-8, K-4, A-x, or J-10 suited. I bet 2x on the flop when holding any hidden pair other than deuces and when holding four to a flush, and I bet the turn/river when there are fewer than 15 "out" cards for the dealer. By doing this, my average ante/blind wager is about 4.1 units. Combined with the 1 unit trips bet, and the .1 unit button bonus bet, my average wager on those hours of UTH was about 5.2 units, or $52 per hand.

(Source for the math = http://wizardofodds.com/games/ultimate-texas-hold-em/ .)

I understand that the policy and method for rating players and games is often set at corporate level in meetings that you and I are not invited to, and that my explanation very well might not mean anything in regard to my rating. However it does show that my actual play did reflect the minimum required to get rated at the next level.

Thank you again for your kindness, and we will be back next fall,

Mosca
Players Card #xxxxxxxxxx



I know there are flop and turn/river decisions I'm missing, but the ones I'm playing are enough to remember.

I may get some consideration, I may not. But I got to say what I know to be true. Tossing those 4x bets up there with Q-8 takes one hell of a leap of belief.
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beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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September 21st, 2014 at 1:57:21 PM permalink
Looks good, Mosca! I'm surprised you don't bet pocket pairs 4x (other than 2's) though; that's another 1 in 20 hands.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Mosca
Mosca
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September 21st, 2014 at 2:40:50 PM permalink
I do, I forgot to mention it.

Pocket pairs from 3s through 6s are infuriating. Invariably the board gets two higher pairs and renders them useless. Or so it seems.
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GWAE
GWAE
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September 21st, 2014 at 7:57:04 PM permalink
I like the letter but my only criticism is that you don't formally ask for anything. You mention on the last line that you played enough to be rated higher but you did not ask to be rated higher. I would have put in a sentence that said something like, upon your review I would appreciate it if you could get me rated to the appropriate level. Just my 2 cents.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
Mosca
Mosca
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September 21st, 2014 at 8:32:24 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

I like the letter but my only criticism is that you don't formally ask for anything. You mention on the last line that you played enough to be rated higher but you did not ask to be rated higher. I would have put in a sentence that said something like, upon your review I would appreciate it if you could get me rated to the appropriate level. Just my 2 cents.



I thought about that, GWAE. My conclusion is that they should want me as a player, based on that information. If she has the power to change the rating, and take me as a client, she should want me. I played what they require. I made my case on math, not on feelings, and I think that is in my favor. The decision is theirs, I shouldn't have to ask. My play is valuable.

I wrote it several different ways, and then decided to invite her to change it if she could, wording it in such a way that she could be gracious if it was not within her power. I don't know that it is. I will say that if we get a decent room offer and return, I will play blackjack 4 hours a night at $50 a hand. It's not my game, but I like it enough. I play for the thrill of the big hit, not for the grind. But I will definitely rate next time.
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