minnesotajoe
minnesotajoe
Joined: Dec 18, 2010
  • Threads: 44
  • Posts: 168
January 28th, 2014 at 11:08:37 PM permalink
I signed up to this forum in late 2010 and was pretty active until March 2011.. then I do not think I visited the website until January 2012. Stayed for about a month and then took my longest break, which ended right before NFL season. I think I went here to look up NFL posts to be honest... Anyway, I received this private message.

"From: Mission146
To: minnesotajoe
Date Sent: August 26, 2013 11:55 pm
Greetings,

You are cordially invited to play in the 2013 WoV Picks Game.

In this game, you'll pick five NFL games Against the Spread, Over/Under or a combination of the two each week, and the player with the highest winning percentage will cash in! Just to make the game +EV, I am throwing $25 into the prize pool that I will not be defending.

Read the full Rules here:

http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/sports/14894-wov-picks-game-2013-discussion-thread/#post264188

If you intend to play, a PM informing me of such would be greatly appreciated, but is not necessary. If you do not PM to let me know that you are playing, then you may simply PM me your picks at the appropriate time.

Your Friend,
Pierce"

Him writing "to make the game +EV throwing in 25$" I took that as him trying to keep interest in it for people to play. If there no prize, people won't care. When I went to the rules, I remember seeing something like You are allowed only one week to pick 0 games but that's it.

I submitted picks for Week 1... and went 0-3-2 (if pushes are counted as losses then the standings are accurate in depicting me as 0-5).

Week 2 I forgot to submit picks. Remember thinking "crap! oh well, that will just be my BYE"
Week 3 it slipped my mind again, and said "well I'm out"... and in fact I did not even log in to forum again until December.
-------
Now in my private messages it looks like this:

FW: WoV Football Contest Ayecarumba January 28, 2014 12:32 pm
FW: WoV Football Contest Ayecarumba January 6, 2014 5:31 pm
WoV Football Contest Ayecarumba December 30, 2013 10:21 pm
Week 3 Picks Mission146 September 20, 2013 10:20 pm
Week 2 Picks Mission146 September 13, 2013 9:30 pm
RE: Week 1 Picks Mission146 September 7, 2013 1:11 pm
Week 1 Picks Mission146 September 6, 2013 10:26 pm
------------------------------
As you can see, I never even got messages about Week 4-17
I did not read the messages from Ayecarumba until today. The first two I figured were just mentioning who won and such... but when I got a third message today, that caught my fancy and I decided to open it.

I am shocked to see a message asking me to make payment for my gambling loss (keep in mind I was under impression this contest was just a 25$ freeroll). so I click the link provided to see what it says.. and I get this table:

"Name Wins Losses % Owes
AyeCarumba 51 36 58.62% -
BoyMimbo 51 37 57.95% $0.67
EdgeLooker 57 42 57.58% $1.04
JW17 47 37 55.95% $2.67
StrictlyAP 52 42 55.32% $3.30
Boz 44 36 55.00% $3.62
Ten2Win 51 42 54.84% $3.78
ZoomZoom8 41 34 54.67% $3.95
BeachBumBabs 50 42 54.35% $4.27
Wizard 51 43 54.26% $4.37
KeyserSoze 43 37 53.75% $4.87
Buzzard 37 32 53.62% $5.00
TheCessPit 46 40 53.49% $5.13
Malaru 42 37 53.16% $5.46
KMUMF 44 40 52.38% $6.24
Paradigm 46 42 52.27% $6.35
Mission146 41 38 51.90% $25.00
Miplet 44 41 51.76% $6.86
TGarrettCPA 49 46 51.58% $7.04
RDW4POTUS 50 48 51.02% $7.60
DeeDubbs 46 47 49.46% $9.16
BeardGoat 45 46 49.45% $9.17
JML24 45 46 49.45% $9.17
Vendman1 36 39 48.00% $10.62
Knuckleball3 41 46 47.13% $11.49
Aluisio 44 50 46.81% $11.81
Terapined 39 45 46.43% $12.19
10DollarBri 40 47 45.98% $12.64
OdiousGambit 32 38 45.71% $12.91
SteelDCo 42 51 45.16% $13.46
MidWestAP 24 30 44.44% $14.18
DuckManKilla 41 52 44.09% $14.53
Johnzimbo 38 53 41.76% $16.86
FRGamble 33 47 41.25% $17.37
Rstrata 20 30 40.00% $18.62
EdCollins 36 56 39.13% $19.49
FourFiveFace 37 60 38.14% $20.48
SOOPOO 38 63 37.62% $21.00
YouCanBetOnThat 30 51 37.04% $21.58
Jon 28 50 35.90% $22.72
AssWhooperMcDaddy 32 62 34.04% $24.58
NCFatCat 6 20 23.08% $35.54
MinnesotaJoe 0 5 0.00% $58.62
Totals 1,710 1,826 48.36% $525.42"
-----------
My gripe is the total lack of common sense from people running this. I still have not read the official rules on how payouts will be. The winner is decided on win percentage. Had I gone 5-0 week 1 then didn't pick again, would I have won and been paid? Zero chance. After no interaction for 4 weeks (let alone every week after week 1) why wouldn't they just throw my name out... And was this set 500$ to winner, and 25$ will be added.. or was the amount owed calculated based another way? If it set up such that the winner gets 500$ and how much from whom is based on % the people running should have thrown out score.

I will be the first to admit, I should have read the complete rules (which I still have not).. and made sure this was just a freeroll to the 25$.. however, next time similar situation comes up... use common sense.
sodawater
sodawater
Joined: May 14, 2012
  • Threads: 62
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January 28th, 2014 at 11:22:04 PM permalink
I agree, the fact this was NOT a freeroll pool should have been clearly stated in the invite message, not just the official rules.

I clicked on the official rules and they say that you owe $0.10 for every thousandth of a percentage point you were behind the winner. So since your percentage was .000 and the winner's was .582, you are calculated as owing $58.62.

The rules also say that you can only miss one week of picks. So if you had gone 5-0 you couldn't just stop.
rainman
rainman
Joined: Mar 28, 2012
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 1342
January 28th, 2014 at 11:32:36 PM permalink
Buyer beware! You don't read the official rules and then file a complaint. No offense but you gotta be kidding.
sodawater
sodawater
Joined: May 14, 2012
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January 28th, 2014 at 11:37:28 PM permalink
Quote: rainman

Buyer beware! You don't read the official rules and then file a complaint. No offense but you gotta be kidding.



yes, he should have read the official rules. however, consider this:

Nowhere in the invitation PM does it mention that by playing, you could owe money.

The rules post is 830 words long, and doesn't mention anything about playing for money until 550 words in.

The fact that the pool was for money, and that every participant but the winner would owe money, is the single most important rule and should have been prominently featured in both the invite message and AT THE TOP of the official rules, not buried in the middle of an 800-word post.

Yes, buyer beware, and of course, read the official rules before agreeing to play -- but really the fact that the pool was for money should have been much more prominent from a design standpoint.
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
Joined: Sep 12, 2012
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  • Posts: 5761
January 28th, 2014 at 11:48:24 PM permalink
Yeah, buyer beware, but it's not clear that he bought anything.

I hate these "did he agree to a bet" discussions, but.... did he agree to a bet?

In the future it would probably be a good idea to force entrants to acknowledge the bet as part of the first week of picks.
sodawater
sodawater
Joined: May 14, 2012
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  • Posts: 3284
January 28th, 2014 at 11:51:23 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice



In the future it would probably be a good idea to force entrants to acknowledge the bet as part of the first week of picks.



This is a great idea.

I would also like to add that with the way the invites and official rules were formatted, it seems like it was almost a freeroll for those who did read the rules.

I mean, let's face facts, any time you offer any sort of contest, some people just aren't going to read the full rules.

The fact that OP picked 5 games, went 0-5, and then stopped playing -- thus ensuring he would owe the maximum amount, makes it crystal clear he had no idea he was playing for money beyond the $25 mentioned in the invite.

He also posted his PM inbox. It looks like Mission PMed him with reminders for weeks 2 and 3, and then per the official rules, auto-forfeited him after he missed two weeks. But it would have been nice if someone had written to him saying "hey, if you skip all these picks you're guaranteed to lose about $60."
Transcend
Transcend
Joined: Oct 1, 2013
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 363
January 29th, 2014 at 12:03:11 AM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Yeah, buyer beware, but it's not clear that he bought anything.

I hate these "did he agree to a bet" discussions, but.... did he agree to a bet?

In the future it would probably be a good idea to force entrants to acknowledge the bet as part of the first week of picks.



Part of it went on gambling, and part of it went on women. The rest I spent foolishly. -George Raft
rainman
rainman
Joined: Mar 28, 2012
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 1342
January 29th, 2014 at 12:23:02 AM permalink
Quote: sodawater

yes, he should have read the official rules. however, consider this:

Nowhere in the invitation PM does it mention that by playing, you could owe money.

The rules post is 830 words long, and doesn't mention anything about playing for money until 550 words in.

The fact that the pool was for money, and that every participant but the winner would owe money, is the single most important rule and should have been prominently featured in both the invite message and AT THE TOP of the official rules, not buried in the middle of an 800-word post.

Yes, buyer beware, and of course, read the official rules before agreeing to play -- but really the fact that the pool was for money should have been much more prominent from a design standpoint.




I didn't play, And I knew you could end up owing. No complaints from other players? Seems as if everyone else was clear on the rules. The responsibility to understand what he was getting into falls on the player.
sodawater
sodawater
Joined: May 14, 2012
  • Threads: 62
  • Posts: 3284
January 29th, 2014 at 12:43:14 AM permalink
Quote: rainman




I didn't play, And I knew you could end up owing. No complaints from other players? Seems as if everyone else was clear on the rules. The responsibility to understand what he was getting into falls on the player.




Yes, but it's also good practice and good design to make the most important rule of the pool as clear as possible. If you don't, you're vastly increasing the chances someone is not going to understand. In this case, the entire issue could have been avoided if the invite PM mentioned it was for money and the rules mentioned it was for money at the top, not 62% the way down the page.

It's also clear that the OP did not know he was playing for money he could lose, thus it's not clear if he agreed to a bet.
Mission146
Mission146
Joined: May 15, 2012
  • Threads: 120
  • Posts: 12149
January 29th, 2014 at 1:19:40 AM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice


In the future it would probably be a good idea to force entrants to acknowledge the bet as part of the first week of picks.



That probably would be a good idea. However, when I say, "I am throwing $25 into the prize pool that I will not be defending," apparently there is a, "Prize pool," that exists outside of the offered $25, so I felt the language pretty clearly indicated what that was.

On the other hand, the thread title the first year was, "WOV Picks Game/Bet," so I probably should have went with that again.
Vultures can't be choosers.

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