Patron Rights in NV and CT - do we have any?

After a frustrating turn of events at a craps table, I've decided to seek out some advice. Do we as patrons of a casino have any rights? Ok maybe that's too broad of a question. Let me qualify what I experienced and witnessed. I was at a craps table, and it was pretty cold. Some of the pit dealers were chummy, but most people were depressed. So what's a guy to do but start betting the Don'ts. Buyin was large enough to draw some eyes, but the average initial bet was $25. Anyway, the pitbosses, the one sitting and the supervisor behind him, started to chide the players at the table. Not openly directly at the players but to themselves within hearing distance of everyone on the table. Dealers started getting into it as well. Even when the dealers were tipped with a high-odded bet (two-way C/E or two-way anycrap, there were sly comments by the dealers "looks like no gas money tonight"). Now this was pretty disrespectful in my opinion, and 99% of the time we probably should walk. But then the table started to turn hot, a couple of points being made and some chips piling up the rack.

If the pit starts directly addressing the patrons with what I view as an arbitrary made-up rules or disrespectful commentary, do we have any protection as patrons? Examples of arbitrary rules: Pit boss tells the shooter to "hurry up, dices out", "no shooting with both hands", "no switching hands to shoot, stay with one hand", "no tossing the dice, roll'em", "no extending your arm", "no dice setting", "no blowing on the dice" etc. I felt that the pit was deliberately trying to mess with the shooter since the roll was getting hotter. And of course after the final chide, 7 out. Felt like being backed off the table.

Suffice it to say, I'm a little disturbed by what I saw and heard. How can you insult your patrons with sly comments where your toking with a bet or implement what I think is an arbitrary rule all of a sudden? Some of us believe in randomness, don't the casinos/workers?

Do we have any form of remediation? A complaint to a host might blacklist you or not. What kind of gaming rules are there that protect the play of patrons from arbitrary non-sense? Does any exist with the Nevada and CT gaming commissions or are we just lambs for the slaughter subject to whatever the house rules at any given time? And if you were to file a complaint with a commission, does anyone have any experience as to how you would go about this? Would you just call them up right then and there? Remember you are in a casino in the middle of nowhere =P

"no shooting with both hands",
"no switching hands to shoot, stay with one hand",
"no tossing the dice, roll'em",
"no extending your arm",
"no dice setting",
"no blowing on the dice"

I have actually heard every one of the rules. Most are fairly reasonable or even sanitary. The no toss rule prevents the game from being slowed down by people bouncing the dice off the table.

The no dice setting is usually aimed at how you do it. Most place won't object to you setting them up on the table in clear view, and then picking them up. They don't want you rolling them around in one hand, or using your 2nd hand to arrange them before you throw them.

Couple of comments:

1. All dealers try to soft hustle the players. In other words, use passive ways to get the non-tippers to toke and to get the tippers to toke more. Normally, they do this by saying loudly whenever someone does tip, "Thank you Sir/Madame, the dealers always appreciate tips!" Personally, I am a sucker for the soft hustle, and normally laugh a lot when it happens and throw out a few more bets for the dealers. After all, they need the gas money more then I do.

2. In your example, it seems like the dealers were being much more obvious with their soft hustle, or may be even hustling the players, which I agree is very annoying. When they get too pushy, I tend to walk away and tip nothing. This isn't a big deal in Las Vegas since there is always another casino near by, but can be terrible if they are the only craps game in town.

3. Some of the examples of the rules that the boxman (the guy sitting in chair) is telling the shooter are not arbitrary or made up. For example, every casino I have ever been in have been very clear that you must only use one hand to roll the dice. This is to help prevent dice switching. There is also a rule about switching dice from hand to hand, also to protect the integrity of the game.

4. The rest of the rules that the boxman was enforcing at your table is to keep the game moving quickly. In most cases, the dice crew is cheering for the shooter to make money. This (usually) means more tips for them. The boxman does not get any tips, so he/she wants the action to be fast and smooth. Unless they are "sweating the money" or really concerned about how much money the craps table is losing that night, they are not trying to mess up the shooter, only maximizing the action.

5. Rules like no blowing on the dice and no dice setting are in place just to make the game go smoothly and fast. If you are playing by yourself, or have gotten a private table, the house doesn't care about these things. But in an effort to keep all their patrons happy at a busy table, they want the dice to move.

6. Some Pit Bosses or floor staff (people standing in the pit, behind the table), will "sweat the money". And I have heard and seen crazy things that Pit Bosses will attempt to change a gambler's luck. However, unless the house is stuck for significant amounts of money (the amount will depend on the size of casino you are in) they don't care. They have seen it all before.

7. What can you do about the hustling from dealers? In most casinos I know, the higher management does not like even soft hustling from their crews. Money dropped into the toke jar means less money for the casino to make. I would talk to a shift supervisor and politely, but firmly, ask them if they can talk to their dealers about not being so obvious about their hustling for tips.

8. I don't think you'll get anywhere filing a protest with the gaming commission. You can try, but you will probably not get anywhere. It is doubtful that your host will help you either. They are not in charge of dealers.

9. Your best bet is to stop playing at that casino. Find a friendlier place with better dealers who don't hustle as much.

Player's rights? Yeah, you got the right to take your business elsewhere. You can also complain, although that may not get you anywhere if you're a low limit player.

I don't mind the soft hustle. But if it's more intense than that, and/or the crew is making snyde comments, I'd just make comments back. I actually did this once. I ask, "Is Van McCoy playing in the showroom this weekend? His presence is being felt on this table." And then, for the benefit of the younger dealers that might not have gotten the reference, I start to sing "The Hustle".

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Rules? Yeah, they're meant to protect the dice from being switched, remove the edge from any potential control shooters, and in general to keep the action going.

But there are two mentioned that have me confused:

"No tossing the dice, roll'em". What's the difference?

"No extending your arm". I have no idea what that means. How do you shoot without extending your arm?

I agree with DJ and Gambler's sentiments. It sounds like the casino was sweating the money a fair bet or that the crew was a bunch of idiots.

Either way, the best way to complain is not to play at their casino. You have the right not to play and there is absolutely nothing stopping you from playing.

There is no regulatory commission that you can complain to when it comes to customer service. You can talk to the manager of casino operations or send a letter after the fact.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Player's rights? Yeah, you got the right to take your business elsewhere.

Ya know, I meant this as freindly advice from another gambler. But when I re-read this, I can only imagine the pit boss in this situation say:

Yeah, you got the right to get the f--- out of our casino.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

But there are two mentioned that have me confused:

"No tossing the dice, roll'em". What's the difference?

"No extending your arm". I have no idea what that means. How do you shoot without extending your arm?

I think what the boxman meant by "No tossing the dice, roll'em," refers to players who like to throw the dice really high into the air. The problem with this is that often the dice do not hit the back wall, and often bounce off the table, slowing the game down. By rolling the dice, the crew can insure that the player hits the back wall each and every time.

As for no extending your arm, I have no idea. This is a new one for me too.

Oh and I like DJTeddyBear's idea of singing "The Hustle." I will have to remember that.

It's true a low roller won't get much attention. nevertheless it's a good idea to escalate as needed. I mean, first go to the dealers, then to the pit boss, then to the supervisor. If all that fails, you tell the supervisor to expect a call from your host (even if you don't have a host).

I don't recomend making a scene, as casinos have too much discretion on throwing patrons out.

Or you can slow the game down. Take your time with the dice, especially take your time making bets, once in a while yell "wait!" as the shooter's about to throw, then amke a small change to a bet.

i really enjoyed the majority of the crew and the floor at jerry's nugget where i played on saturday. the dealers took care of things for me like if i was short on $1 chips theyd make sure to give me a stack when i hit a number. id always have my odds bets working on the comeout roll so after i got paid, the dealers would take my odds bet on the last point and place it as odds on the last comebet i made. they took care of me so i took care of them tipwise. i also had a lot of good conversation with one of the boxmen. talking about how $10 tables were more profitable than $15 tables since people would place $12 6 and 8 all the time but at a $15 table they were hesistant about placing the 6 and 8 for $18. and how $3 tables were better than $5 tables since the take was the same if players placed the numbers but the casino would be risking less cutting down on their variance.

DJTeddyBear

"No tossing the dice, roll'em". What's the difference? - You see how some people lobbed the dice in the air? Ie you pick them up and you lobb them like in bocce? Pitboss wanted you to throw them down aimed at the table instead of the ceiling. Either way, I thought this was b---s---. They didn't complain when the table was losing money. Why start now unless its to screw with the people there.

"No extending your arm". I have no idea what that means. How do you shoot without extending your arm? -- I thought this demand was absolutely ridiculous. I think the pit boss was being a prick here.

You're right about your later post. "the right to get the f*** out of here".

I was a bit disheartened by the experience. I can't believe most of these "rules" are considered not arbitrary.

Quote: Asswhoopermcdaddy

"No extending your arm". I have no idea what that means. How do you shoot without extending your arm? -- I thought this demand was absolutely ridiculous. I think the pit boss was being a prick here.

I wonder if this has something to do with getting people to roll the dice farther down the table. In other words, if you are "extending your arm" and thus letting go of the dice closer to the back wall than if you just rolled the dice. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I guess I could see if someone did have the ability to control the dice rolling, that releasing those dice closer to the back wall might help to control how the dice land.

Personally, I'm not sure that the extra, what, 2 1/2, 3 feet? really make a difference.

I think the whole crew must have been pissed off at empty toke boxes and simply wanted to close the table and take an Early Out.

Sometimes I can't blame them. It must be hard for a person who lives on tips to go his entire shift and know that the two dollars in the toke box will mean a grand total of 18 cents to him for an entire 8 hours of work.

If the players are glum and the crew is glum, yes... it might be best to play from the Dark Side but if you had put a line bet on the Don'ts for the dealers their attitude might have changed, at least towards you.

Sweat the money joints exist, some box men get pissed off at a slow dice roller simply because the box man is pissed off at the whole table already. Sometimes the crew and the box just want everyone to go away if they are not tipping anyone all night long.

Recently one baccarat dealer paid out over a grand to a player and received no tip. The dealer improperly and loudly referred to the player in a vulgar manner, the floor then loudly used the same vulgar term to refer to all the players at that table (none of whom had tipped the dealer) who all promptly left. It is not right for the dealer to have a temper tantrum and it is not right for the floor to do so either. It does happen from time to time however.

I just witnessed all these behaviors last week in Vegas. Really a shame. It is not the same in Vegas. Too much money tension from the House. I really felt like a mark. I saw dealers actually mocking a non tipping player as it is a right to be tipped. The dealers and pit boss talked amoung themselves for at least 20 minutes while 11 players played. Two different worlds. Why would that guy tip. One thing I noticed this last week was the LARGE number of dealer errors in favor of the HOUSE. After the first several "mistakes" I started really watching the payouts and there was an incredable number of mistakes infavor of the house. Has anybody else noticed this? I am not talking honest, simple mistakes, but a systematic non payment to winners. Especially those players not paying attention.

Many casinos try to create an US versus THEM attitude, but in reality the dealers should be doing whatever they can to enable players to win. Dealers tips are enhanced by winning customers. Unfortunately some customers tipping behavior does re-inforce the notion of an adversarial relationship between Player and Casino. Dealers make minimum wage. Its sometimes hard for them to realize that smiles and conversation are indeed part of the job.

Quote: likeplayingcrapsandbj

I just witnessed all these behaviors last week in Vegas.

Would you mind naming the places where you witnessed the bad payouts? We all know humans make errors, but since I am headed to RIO this weekend, I would like to know where I need to pay attention, although I know I should be paying attention all the time.

I agree with you, if the player wins the dealers gets tipped. I have just noticed errors appear to ALWAYS favor the house now. More then ever.

RIO was great and was Paris. Just always pay attention.