Changing Demographics of America

Quote: Face

I suppose this is one of my many internal conflicts I deal with. Yes, you are American. Even a native American. But you’re not Native American.

Or are you?

Discuss.

I am not an American Indian if that is what you are asking, I do not have the high cheekbones or anything.

I never liked changing the term from Indian to "Native American" because the later just really sets up logic problems. Yes, Indian was a misnomer, but a 500 year old term can get a pass.

And FWIW I am against changing Indian names of sports teams because a bunch of liberal whites get offended at them.

Quote: AZDuffman

And FWIW I am against changing Indian names of sports teams because a bunch of liberal whites get offended at them.

What if a bunch of Native Americans get offended at them instead?

Or Republican African-Americans?

Or Libertarian Japanese-Americans?

Or are you purely against White Liberals?

Quote: thecesspit

What if a bunch of Native Americans get offended at them instead?

Or Republican African-Americans?

Or Libertarian Japanese-Americans?

Or are you purely against White Liberals?

Then any group offended should not attend games, not buy any merchandise, and make their favorite team "whoever is playing them" as I do with the Dallas Cowboys. They should quit being crybabies.

I picked white liberals as they are the group most active in the being-offended industry in this regard.

Never mind -- don't feed the trolls.

Quote: AZDuffman

I am not an American Indian if that is what you are asking, I do not have the high cheekbones or anything.

No, I was just opening the floor to argue your opinion, if you cared to.

Quote: AZDuffman

I never liked changing the term from Indian to "Native American" because the later just really sets up logic problems. Yes, Indian was a misnomer, but a 500 year old term can get a pass.

And FWIW I am against changing Indian names of sports teams because a bunch of liberal whites get offended at them.

I don’t like “Indian” because I’m not. My culture is Sky Mother, not Ganesh.

I’m not partial to “Native American” either. It’s another one of those idiotic PC terms that cause me to gripe. Even “Native American” is a misnomer, I feel, because my culture is native to a place that wasn’t “America”, as it were.

But when race comes up, telling people I’m Onödowága just doesn’t work, obviously. Even those native to the northeast or even WNY directly just say “huh?” So “Native” it is.

On sports logos, I feel the same. Of course, that’s my personal opinion. There is no doubt that having a team featuring a Native warrior’s head for a logo and called “Redskin” is the height of offense. As I’ve said elsewhere, it is no different than if a team were called the “Niggers” who’s logo is a slave in rags. Zero difference, so I can see why some get up in arms about it. It just doesn’t bother me.

Maybe it should, I dunno. I guess I just have bigger problems than someone using “bad words” .

Quote: Face

I’m not partial to “Native American” either. It’s another one of those idiotic PC terms that cause me to gripe. Even “Native American” is a misnomer, I feel, because my culture is native to a place that wasn’t “America”, as it were.

I am mixed here. I prefer to keep it to "Indian" and "White" for the broad-based things then you can divide into Navajo and Irish if need be, but Indians and Whites called each other that from 1500 to 1980 with minimal problem so why did we change?

Quote:

But when race comes up, telling people I’m Onödowága just doesn’t work, obviously. Even those native to the northeast or even WNY directly just say “huh?” So “Native” it is.

I am going to guess this is the Indian parent of "Onondaga" as in the County that Syracuse is the seat of? I will give a pass to the larger northeast, but why the surprise from WNY? To many there to go form Webster to Chili or Orchard Park to Tonawanda is to drive to another dimension.

Quote:

On sports logos, I feel the same. Of course, that’s my personal opinion. There is no doubt that having a team featuring a Native warrior’s head for a logo and called “Redskin” is the height of offense. As I’ve said elsewhere, it is no different than if a team were called the “Niggers” who’s logo is a slave in rags. Zero difference, so I can see why some get up in arms about it. It just doesn’t bother me.

Little different than to have a little Irish guy with his fists up. Difference is I like Notre Dame mostly because of the nickname. To the extent I care about the NBA I pick Boston for the same reason.

Quote:

Maybe it should, I dunno. I guess I just have bigger problems than someone using “bad words” .

As do I.

White liberals are always finding something to whine about. As for the term "Redskins", it would be one thing if American Indians/Native Americans wanted it changed, but most of the people complaining are white liberals.

Retired Native American Chief Would Be Offended If Redskins Did Change Name

Quote: AZDuffman

I am mixed here. I prefer to keep it to "Indian" and "White" for the broad-based things then you can divide into Navajo and Irish if need be, but Indians and Whites called each other that from 1500 to 1980 with minimal problem so why did we change?

I’m probably more sensitive for two reasons – I am one and I live here lol. It ain’t so bad on the rez, granted. But go to a big city or away from home, and I’ve had people assume I was Sandeep and not Sitting Bear.

Quote: AZDuffman

I am going to guess this is the Indian parent of "Onondaga" as in the County that Syracuse is the seat of?

You’d think so, but no. Onöñda’gega’ are the Onondaga. The names of the Haudenosaunee frequently reflect their surroundings or what they’re known for. “Onödowága” means “People of the Great Hill”, after the Allegany mountain range, where the Senecas resided. Onöñda’gega’ means simply “People of the Hills” after the similar topography of the homelands of the Onondaga further west. And there’s even another name for the Onondagas in Southern Ontario to keep them separated, but you’re already straining my knowledge and my ‘alt’ keys ;) Trust me, it only gets more confusing, and is probably a topic more appropriate for DT.

Quote: AZDuffman

I will give a pass to the larger northeast, but why the surprise from WNY? To many there to go form Webster to Chili or Orchard Park to Tonawanda is to drive to another dimension.

Ha! It depends who you talk to. Some of the locals who deal with or have family in the Nation are aware, but to many, we’re just that place to get cheap smokes and gas. When I worked in customer service, I couldn’t tell you how many people asked me where all the teepees were…

Quote: Beethoven9th

White liberals are always finding something to whine about. As for the term "Redskins", it would be one thing if American Indians/Native Americans wanted it changed, but most of the people complaining are white liberals.

Retired Native American Chief Would Be Offended If Redskins Did Change Name

One link does not a majority make. There are certainly outliers like myself who doesn’t give a damn about the “Tomahawk Chop” at a Brave’s game, but I can tell you without question that Natives as a whole are deeply offended by it.

Fortunately, we’re all dead and could never make enough of a stink to force a change.

Quote: Beethoven9th

White liberals are always finding something to whine about.

I've found much the same with White Conservatives as well. People like to whine. Just about different things.

Mainly fear. What else drives people into action?

I will not reply to any more hate mail in the private message system.
If there are hurt feelings, it's not my fault unless the hurt feeling are my own.

These are not the droids you are looking for.

Quote: wroberson

I will not reply to any more hate mail in the private message system.

If you're truly get hate PM's make the mod aware of it.
People have been suspended here for misusing the PM
feature. Seriously.

Quote: Face

One link does not a majority make.

Very true, but there are polls targeting Indians/Native Americans which support that claim:

Poll finds few Indians offended by Washington Redskins name

Granted, it's old, but it's one of the few polls out there that's actually focused on Indians/Native Americans. Again, while it's true that the poll could be wrong (or simply outdated), it's not irresponsible speculation on my part when I say that it's mostly white liberals who are offended by "Redskins".

(For the record, I would actually support a name change if there was an outcry from a majority of Indians/Native Americans instead of the usual white liberal suspects I keep seeing/reading about)

Quote: thecesspit

I've found much the same with White Conservatives as well..

Yeah, and they whine mostly about white liberals.

OTOH, liberals in places like California and New York have complete power, yet they STILL whine about this, that, and the other. These people are never happy even when they're in charge.

Quote: Beethoven9th

Yeah, and they whine mostly about white liberals.

Yup. The thing I've found about Libs I know is,
they get their 'facts' only from places they know
are liberal. I know a woman who is terrified of
FoxNews because she's been told all they tell is
lies. Has she ever watched it? Hell no, she's not
going to get sucked into their BS. So many Libs
I know are gullible, thats their biggest problem.

Quote: Beethoven9th

Yeah, and they whine mostly about white liberals.

Touche.

Quote: Face

Ha! It depends who you talk to. Some of the locals who deal with or have family in the Nation are aware, but to many, we’re just that place to get cheap smokes and gas. When I worked in customer service, I couldn’t tell you how many people asked me where all the teepees were…

There uses to be at least one right off I-87 when you crossed the reservation. Along with a spray-painted billboard sign with some anarchist talk I will not repeat here unless asked.

Quote:

One link does not a majority make. There are certainly outliers like myself who doesn’t give a damn about the “Tomahawk Chop” at a Brave’s game, but I can tell you without question that Natives as a whole are deeply offended by it.

Actually the "Tomahawk Chop" is 100% sanctioned! Florida State has a model relationship with the Seminole Tribe. When the NCAA put their noses into nicknames for teams and tried to ban the Indian names the tribe saw lots of revenue and goodwill evaporating and stood up for the school. A smart tribe with no casinos would call up Redskin ownership and start cutting a deal.

Quote: Face

I don’t like “Indian” because I’m not. My culture is Sky Mother, not Ganesh.

I’m not partial to “Native American” either. It’s another one of those idiotic PC terms that cause me to gripe. Even “Native American” is a misnomer, I feel, because my culture is native to a place that wasn’t “America”, as it were.

But when race comes up, telling people I’m Onödowága just doesn’t work, obviously. Even those native to the northeast or even WNY directly just say “huh?” So “Native” it is.

How do you feel about indigenous as an adjective? It is sort of generic so you would have to qualify it with some other word. But "indigenous American" or "indigenous New Yorker" is a compromise.



It sounds better as a sentence. "Some of my ancestors are from Ireland, and others are indigenous to upstate New York."

For all practical social purposes ‘race’ is not so much a biological phenomenon as a social myth. The myth of ‘race’ has created an enormous amount of human and social damage.

Quote: wroberson

A gripe of how my native country turned a melting pot into a frying pan no longer fit for white Americans to raise a family.

I'm sorry, there is no pause button, and a Final Solution is already in progress.

I sent a private message. Its just that the above comment is , well, racist. It was a PM asking why he hated me?

Here is my private message unedited
"I am an immigrant. I was not born in this country. Why do you hate me. Why are you against me? I find your post extremely offensive. My father (US born and raised) risked his life in the US Navy to protect your hateful freedom of speech. How am I a problem to you??????? My family helped protect your freedoms."


This is just to set the record straight on my PM. Maybe he got others that were awful, I don't know. Just setting the record straight on wroberson claim of getting hateful PM's

If my PM is deemed to warrant a suspension. so be it.

Quote: terapined

If my PM is deemed to warrant a suspension. so be it.

Forget about your PM, your post disclosing someone else's PM wasn't a smart choice.

Quote: Beethoven9th

Forget about your PM, your post disclosing someone else's PM wasn't a smart choice.

You are right, I just edited it, thanks

Quote: rdw4potus

This might be the most incorrect thing I've ever seen on this site.

You must have EvenBob blocked.

Quote: Beethoven9th

(For the record, I would actually support a name change if there was an outcry from a majority of Indians/Native Americans instead of the usual white liberal suspects I keep seeing/reading about)

I wonder what percentage of these "white liberals" are familiar with members of Native culture, and are therefore sympathetic to the cause. I suppose that shall never be known, nor matter. As I said, the numbers will never be there for anything to be done about it.

Quote: AZDuffman

There uses to be at least one right off I-87 when you crossed the reservation. Along with a spray-painted billboard sign with some anarchist talk I will not repeat here unless asked.

Oh, I see some here and there. But the Haudenosaunee, which includes the lands of the Mohawk where I-87 is currently, lived in Longhouses. Teepees are a western thing not found round these parts (historically).

Quote: AZDuffman

Actually the "Tomahawk Chop" is 100% sanctioned! Florida State has a model relationship with the Seminole Tribe. When the NCAA put their noses into nicknames for teams and tried to ban the Indian names the tribe saw lots of revenue and goodwill evaporating and stood up for the school. A smart tribe with no casinos would call up Redskin ownership and start cutting a deal.

I don't doubt it, but that doesn't necessarily imply consent, at least not on the level I'm speaking to. You're probably at least somewhat familiar with the Seneca/NY feud, or possibly issues between them with gaming, or whatever. Sure, the paper says NY and the Nation has come to an agreement and all is well, but the public, those who are members of the Nation, are not happy. It's pretty much like white America. Rarely do the headlines about the government's feelings reflect those of the people it represents. Ditto that for corporations.

Quote: pacomartin

How do you feel about indigenous as an adjective? It is sort of generic so you would have to qualify it with some other word. But "indigenous American" or "indigenous New Yorker" is a compromise.

I'll be honest, I don't have a reaction to it as it pertains to race, nor do I use it or hear it in my day-to-day. Because of my background being an outdoorsman, "indigenous" makes me think of animals and plants and the whole invasive species ordeal. Because of the many words already accepted for "indigenous Americans", I rarely equate it to "home", if that makes sense. I guess I look at it as more of a global term because, like you said, it's so generic.

Quote: pacomartin

For all practical social purposes ‘race’ is not so much a biological phenomenon as a social myth. The myth of ‘race’ has created an enormous amount of human and social damage.

I agree, and really, the only times I bother with making replies like I have in this thread is when the thread specifically focuses on these kind of things. Obviously, the term "Indian" is used here all the time when referring to certain casinos, and the terms "Injun" and "wampum" are also peppered in here and there. I Don't Care. If you called me "Indian" either here or to my face, I'd not think to correct you or make a big deal out of it or even have much of an internal reaction. Even if you called me a "redskinned savage" right to my face, really, it's not nice, but what I'm I gonna do? Yell? Stab you? Make you walk the Torture Tree? C'mon.

I'm of the belief that those who take every offense to speech are those who give the word its power. To be honest, that's why I never type "the 'N' word" here. I don't think "nigger" is appropriate to say in many different contexts, but to give a word so much negative power is, I think, counter-productive. If everyone said it everyday, it'd be as meaningless as "peckerwood" in a month flat.

To avoid offending and embarrassing Native American Indians, the Washington Redskins are dropping "Washington" from the team name...

^^^^^^^^^
LOL

Quote: wroberson

It's a gripe about how America has failed to protect it's native population. A gripe of how the leaders of this country will do anything to remain in power including crushing their own race and countrymen for the sake of votes. A gripe of how my native country turned a melting pot into a frying pan no longer fit for white Americans to raise a family.

Holy hell- Your going to complain about white not being the dominate race and claim them as the NATIVE population? - this is so out there to make that claim that its even cliche to respond to it appropriately. The NATIVES of this land lost a hell of a lot more and a hell of a lot quicker due to political insight and desires then the White Americans EVER will. You want to talk about the NATIVE race not being able to raise their kids properly- just take a stop on by the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota - or the Ouray reservations in the hills of Utah that dont have much support.

Yea, things could come full circle- the white man may end up living in the poor areas unwanted by all the new latinos and God knows what other races come to this nation- but dont dare call it YOUR NATIVE country. Every one of us came from somewhere else some time or another- and in the end we dont own this land, we turn right back into the dust we came from.

Sometimes I do think that the white race is stepped on a bit in terms of ability to get things government wise because we are not seen as needy or minority- but we have been stepping on the heads of every other race for over two hundred years and payback is a bitch.

Quote: Malaru

Sometimes I do think that the white race is stepped on a bit in terms of ability to get things government wise because we are not seen as needy or minority- but we have been stepping on the heads of every other race for over two hundred years and payback is a bitch.

Oh come on. The white race has done far more to help the world than any other. The entire notion of the modern nation-state and personal freedom come from whites. Quit acting as though whites are the only race to dominate another, it is getting very old to hear this.

one over another- any race over any race- nomatter who was basicly the way of the world until the 1700's or so. .. a bit odd really.. - oh they have helped, and honestly i think that the upper hand went to who got it first- not that the others would not have taken it if they could have- so went the world

Quote: AZDuffman

Oh come on. The white race has done far more to help the world than any other. The entire notion of the modern nation-state and personal freedom come from whites. Quit acting as though whites are the only race to dominate another, it is getting very old to hear this.

The white race has done more to help the world? Who's world? For that statement to be true than the inverse is true as well. The white race has done more harm than all other races.

Geronimo wouldn't have agreed with you. The Mayans didn't appreciate the Spaniards at all. Not sure how far back you want to go with the nation-state, when you say modern what is that 20th century. Or Santa Ana.

Isn't that what the whole nwo thing is about, dissolving nation states except for when those in power want a war on some other country?

If the history books you read are all written by the same people how could you possibly have a different opinion of your own?

Just out of curiosity I wonder what your definition of free is? What other races dominated other races?

Quote: AZDuffman

Oh come on. The white race has done far more to help the world than any other.

It is generally believed that natural selection in Europe favored people with thin skin exposing the white cells underneath that are found in all humans. The concept of "race" is no longer accepted as having any scientific validity. While people around the world have genetic differences, the idea that you can subdivide them into races in a meaningful manner is nonsense.

So the "white" race does not exist. There were no group of people that acted out of a common set of ideology. Nor are they genetically different than any other group of people.

By all expectations the Chinese should have discovered the world. They had the best technology and the finest navigators.

The most potent weapon owned by the Europeans was sleeping in close quarters with animals for thousands of years. Although each group of people gave the other ones diseases, the Europeans had the best chance of surviving the infections.

I once worked with a technician name Robert Running Bear. I was talking with Jimmy Montoya about a barbecue that weekend. I told Bear if he wanted to come, we'd throw a dog on the spit. Then one of those old Bell black phones missed my head by inches. So I did
the only thing I could do. I APOLOGIZED !

Who gives a shit what anybody else thinks. Change the name ! Honkies is available, I think !

P.S. Running Bear got fired from AT&T later on 3rd DUI. And he headed to reservation, instead of court. I actually helped him beat the 30 days he spent in jail for 2nd DUI. It was the 70's , Columbus Day parades boycotted. affirmative action if full bore. Running Bear gor a letter from Russell Means, stated Bear was part of an emergency council on the reservation those 30 days. And AT&T did not want to touch that grievance. LOL

It's far better to say people in colder climates have
done more to advance science. Necessity is the
mother of invention, and colder climates put more
need for cleverness on people. If the world hadn't
discovered Hawaii, they would still be running around
naked and loving it, there's no need there for
anything. They didn't even have disease.

Quote: petroglyph

Just out of curiosity I wonder what your definition of free is? What other races dominated other races?

Africans were selling each other into slavery long before whites showed up.
Indians would kill the other tribe's men and enslave the women and children, Cherokees owned black slaves.
The Japanese raped every woman in sight when they invaded Korea.
Muslims killed anyone who was a non-believer and taxed other religions 50%.
Genghis Kahn ran wild all over Asia.

Probably can find many more examples.

Quote: AZDuffman

Africans were selling each other into slavery long before whites showed up.
Indians would kill the other tribe's men and enslave the women and children, Cherokees owned black slaves.
The Japanese raped every woman in sight when they invaded Korea.
Muslims killed anyone who was a non-believer and taxed other religions 50%.
Genghis Kahn ran wild all over Asia.

Probably can find many more examples.

I don't see that mostly as race on race? Maybe country against country or tribe against tribe. My hackles just come up when someone thinks the USA's "rightful" owner's are the white people. And forget how that came about. Possession however is 9/10's of the law.

I know it will never stop. I've told people if they really enjoy hating people they are really shorting themselves to hate a whole race at a time, it's so much more fun to hate them individually.[sarc]

I've never seen this thread before. Just wow, OP to finish. Really? Blocking; I don't want this to be my impression of folks on here.