What does a gal have to do to get a glass of dihydrogen monoxide around here?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

It sounds like you are upset because you would have preferred if Paco had written, "My half aunt is ...." rather than "My former half uncle is ...."

Yes, that's exactly the point.

However, as I added later, not knowing the specific circumstances maybe I shouldn't have made a comment.

Quote:

If I have all the facst right, I find nothing wrong with what Paco did.

Specifics aside, which are unkown, it's very wrong in a generic kind of way. It's as wrong as "this guy who became a woman," or "this woman who used to be a man," but not as bad as other things.

No doubt you don't see anything wrong in the above examples, either, but I find them extremely ignorant and offensive. I can tolerate them, once, if they are meant well and arise from ignorance. Ignorance isn't a sin. Making pronouncements in spite of ignorance is. So I will correct innocent mistakes, once.

Quote: Nareed

It's as wrong as "this guy who became a woman,"
Ignorance isn't a sin. Making pronouncements in spite of ignorance is. So I will correct innocent mistakes, once.

Fortunately, Nareed, you are not the final arbiter, as to definitions of words people use. I would surmise that well in excess of 90% of people would describe that a genetic male, who underwent a sex change operation, would use the phrase, "this guy who became a woman". Calling someone ignorant because they do not agree with your ill supported views is well, ignorant.

i would say i am more politically correct than most.
i am also gay and have several friends and one relative who is transgendered (FTM).
i think if you expect people to not offend you,
you have to be proactive in how you describe yourself or others who are in similar situation.
it is not fair to be offended by well meaning people who are merely trying to describe someone who is transgendered.
they may not even know that word, and maybe that word is offensive in itself to some.
(nareed,) i asked earlier in the thread what your OPINION on how the situation should be handled.
it is a very individual thing.
what is ok for some is not ok with others.

I would say that I would be interested in knowing how a transexual would like to be referenced by other people. I understand that a transexual wants to be referenced by his/her proper gender, but if an individual is referring to the fact that the individual is a transexual, what, specifically, should they say to indicate that the person was once confined to a body not befitting his/her gender?

This is where I have the most difficulty. Identifying someone by the correct gender is an easy matter, but how do you deal with discussions of the past where people once perceived them as a non-transexual individual of their biological (physically-speaking) gender?

Quote: WongBo

it is a very individual thing.

Yes it is. But as a good rule of thumb, you should not refer to a woman by using the word man, or to a man by using the word woman.

Quote: Mission146

I would say that I would be interested in knowing how a transexual would like to be referenced by other people.

Some of us have names ;)

Quote:

[..]but if an individual is referring to the fact that the individual is a transexual, what, specifically, should they say to indicate that the person was once confined to a body not befitting his/her gender?

You like the hard questions. Ok. First ask yourself: why does it matter?

Now, what do you mean by sex? What does anyone mean by sex? Or more specifically, how do you define a persons' sex?

Usually people go with the obvious, with that which is easy to see. Usually that is wrong. In this case it's not merely wrong, it's misleading. The usual answer is to say that genitals determine sex, maybe adding secondary sexual characteristics. That would be fine if people were mindless hulks.

Since we're not, you also need to take the mind, and the brain, into account. All the more so since the human mind is unique in this world, and it is incredibly complex. But more important, male and female brains are different. This is not only self-evident, but a biological fact.

The next misconception lies in thinking that someone with male genitals must perforce come equipped with a male brain. Or that someone with an XY chromosome pair must be male in every respect. For one thing, the genes in the Y chromosome don't determine either the brain's structure, nor the body's response to various "sex" hormones. For another, genes alone do not determine everything about anyone. There are environmental influences as well. Some which may interfere with how the body and brain develop, and others which may affect gene expression. Here's an easy example: some women who took a tranquilizer called Thalidomide had children with birth defects, notably with missing limbs. These children's genes for arms and legs, however, were perfectly fine.

So, perhaps due to some odd genes here and there, or due to odd hormone levels in the womb, or due to unusual sensitivity to "sex" hormones (be it a higher or lower sensitivity), or a combination of any of the above, sometimes the brain does not match the rest of the body, or the 32nd chromosome pair.

I can say this with certainty, too, because a few studies done on brains from transsexual women, show certain areas of their brain anatomy to be a great deal more similar to normal females than to normal males (and yes, there was a control for the effects of hormone levels).

When I look back on my life, I realize many of my social problems stem from trying to act like a man when I simply don't know how. I don't understand men in an innate level. how many of you men here can say the same thing? To be sure I was raised as one, so I have some understanding, not all of it welcome, on a descriptive level. But if you ask me why men do or say such things, I'm largely clueless.

This is glaringly evident to me that I am not a man and have never been one. Not where it counts. My body may be male, but my brain isn't. From such other transsexuals as I know, I can tell you it is the same for many of them. And from this i can extrapolate that ti is the case for many, if not most, other transsexual women.

Therefore:

1) I don't need to "become" a woman, because I already am a woman
2) To say I "used to be a man," is not only insulting, but patently untrue.

Now, to answer my question, why does it matter?

It can matter to a doctor, as there are some specific issued with the kind of transition we undergo and the amounts of hormones we take. It may, or may not, matter to a potential romantic partner, for rather obvious reasons. But I don't see that it can matter to anyone else.

Some other time we can go on with the implications of all this, not to mention the subtle but very important difference between sex and gender.

Quote: Nareed

Some other time we can go on with the implications of all this, not to mention the subtle but very important difference between sex and gender.

Can you do it on here? I find the entire topic rather fascinating.

Quote: Nareed

It can matter to a doctor, as there are some specific issued with the kind of transition we undergo and the amounts of hormones we take. It may, or may not, matter to a potential romantic partner, for rather obvious reasons. But I don't see that it can matter to anyone else.

Speaking of this, when do you discuss it with your potential romantic partner? Not only in regards to this particular subject, but I find "secrets" a worry when it comes to bringing it up with potential romantic partners. As an example, I once dated a girl for several months before she revealed to me that she had an STD. When I tell the story to people, they always respond with, "Oh that's wrong. She should have told you sooner." And while I don't necessary disagree with that, having been in the situation, and knowing her, and why she didn't tell me, I kind of understand her point of view as well.

Sometimes, the situation seems very obvious to me. Take someone with very strong religious views. Obviously, the need to reveal the partner's religious views and whether or not they mesh are going to be addressed fairly quickly. I know a girl who says she asks dates two question, do you want to have children, and do you believe in God. If they answer yes to either, then she moves on.

There's a wide array of secrets that people can have. Skeletons can exist in any closet. I have some, and I never know when/if I should bring them up. The fear for me is that there seems like there is some fine point where revealing some sort of secret should be done. Do it too early, and you might turn off the potential romantic partner. Do it too late, and the person thinks you've been hiding something from them.

Anyway, I know everybody's situation is different, but I'm just curious as to what your preferences are on "revealing" (don't like that particular word in this particular sense, but I can't think of a suitable alternative at the moment) your situation to a potential date.

Quote: konceptum

Can you do it on here? I find the entire topic rather fascinating.

It's not a matter of where but when. Remind me over the weekend.

Quote:

Speaking of this, when do you discuss it with your potential romantic partner?

Oh, my. It hasn't come to that for years, but my practice is to do so before the first date.

Quote: Nareed

It hasn't come to that for years, but my practice is to do so before the first date.

In Nareed's case, that would be the perfect time. If it's not revealed before then, there's likely won't be a date; the man would run away. And if he doesn't run away, and stays around for second and third dates, then that's a red flag in itself.

I can see the first blind date meeting now:

Man: Hi, are you Nareed?
Nareed: Yes! Are you Kevin?
Man: ummm....ahhhh, well, ummm, sorry, but Kevin couldn't make it.

Or:

Man: Hi, are you Nareed?
Nareed: Yes! Are you Kevin?
Man: Oh, my! Yes! Yes, I AM Kevin! Well, look at you! Today's my lucky day, isn't it! Fabulous!

I'm going to have to give zippy three days for that. I'm sure it was meant in humor, but everybody knows this is a touchy subject, and one we should be very careful about joking about. This goes past that line.

Quote: Wizard

I'm going to have to give zippy three days for that. I'm sure it was meant in humor, but everybody knows this is a touchy subject, and one we should be very careful about joking about. This goes past that line.

So no jokes about transsexual people but mocking religion still OK.

Quote: kracker21

So no jokes about transsexual people but mocking religion still OK.

The rule is personal insults of forum members are not allowed. "Religion" is not a forum member.

Quote: Wizard

but everybody knows this is a touchy subject, and one we should be very careful about joking about.

I thought you meant transsexuals when you wrote this is a touchy subject.

Quote: Wizard

The rule is personal insults of forum members are not allowed. "Religion" is not a forum member.

But let's be fair, Wiz. There is a tacit approval of any derision heaped upon members who are "silly" enough or at times even "stupid" enough to live a life of faith. I have been twice bitten and now say nothing on any topic concerning religion. I read but never comment on Fr. Gamble's threads because I don't want the hassle of being labelled. They may not always be direct insults lobbied against a specific person but people of faith live their lives with the same amount of sincerity that Nareed lives hers. This thread was broken off so that the issue of what was offensive could be discussed. I find a "no-holds" barred attitude about religion to be offensive.

Zippy used Nareed's name four times in the post in question. Show me a post where somebody calls another forum member "stupid" for believing in religion then I'll give him/her a ban too. Challenging religion itself is allowed. Insulting religious forum members is not. If you have evidence to the contrary, please supply some links to posts to prove it.

Quote: Wizard

Zippy used Nareed's name four times in the post in question. Show me a post where somebody calls another forum member "stupid" for believing in religion then I'll given him/her a ban too. Challenging religion itself is allowed. Insulting religious forum members is not. If you have evidence to the contrary, please supply some links to posts to prove it.

I nodded, then realized you couldn't see that. I have no desire to be an internet watchdog, but I will PM you if that situation arises again.

Quote: Woldus

I will PM you if that situation arises again.

Please do.

It's very disappointing to log on and find that another good member has been suspended.

The rules apply to the good members too.

Quote: weaselman

It does?

Let me clarify my question. What the hell are you talking about?

To me, this is by far the funniest post on this site in the last few months. I can't stop laughing:-)

low threshold for amusement, i guess...