High Stakes Poker CHARADE
Thread Rating:
May 10th, 2012 at 12:26:59 AM
permalink
Read it and weep' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://www.pokerq4.com/high-stakes-poker-season-8-cancelled-was-hsp-full-tilt-charade-1015]weep you who doubted me.
High Stakes Poker was a con job from the git go.
It was a fraud perpetuated by Full Tilt Poker. Most
of the players were NOT playing with real money,
and you called me names and dissed my character.
Have you noticed its long gone? And your hero, Gabe
Kaplan, is embroiled in lawsuits? Tsk tsk, for ever
doubting me...
High Stakes Poker was a con job from the git go.
It was a fraud perpetuated by Full Tilt Poker. Most
of the players were NOT playing with real money,
and you called me names and dissed my character.
Have you noticed its long gone? And your hero, Gabe
Kaplan, is embroiled in lawsuits? Tsk tsk, for ever
doubting me...
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
May 10th, 2012 at 12:51:18 AM
permalink
Quote: EvenBobRead it and weep' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://www.pokerq4.com/high-stakes-poker-season-8-cancelled-was-hsp-full-tilt-charade-1015]weep you who doubted me.
High Stakes Poker was a con job from the git go.
It was a fraud perpetuated by Full Tilt Poker. Most
of the players were NOT playing with real money,
and you called me names and dissed my character.
Have you noticed its long gone? And your hero, Gabe
Kaplan, is embroiled in lawsuits? Tsk tsk, for ever
doubting me...
so Full Tilt backed their players financially. these players had nothing to lose so the big gambles and wild calls. made for a more interesting show.
how did the full tilt pros make $? did they keep the profits, but full tilt covered the loses?
and what % of players were not fullt tilt players? (thus were playing w/their own $?)
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
May 10th, 2012 at 3:07:06 AM
permalink
Probably was. A TV show wants ratings so its sponsor can make money. In this case, the Sponsor mainly sold advertising to Full Tilt Poker so the show was Full Tilt financed players shown playing poker and the purpose was to entertain the audience and keep that name Full Tilt on their minds.Quote: EvenBobHigh Stakes Poker was a con job from the git go.
All poker is full of "stars" with secret entanglements and pre-existing final chop agreements. All poker is stars presenting themselves as independent entities who later turn out to have links to various sites or owners of sites.
Full Tilt kept telling every one we segregate your deposits. No one ever saw a trust fund agreement, a CPA letter or a bank's Letter of Credit. Alot was hucksterism and showmanship.
Whenever you have all those secret web servers and secret corporate entities what do you expect of the spokesmen? What do you expect of the software?
The money is not made with players from Uzebekastan ... the money is made with players from the USA.
May 10th, 2012 at 3:43:59 AM
permalink
Quote: EvenBobRead it and weep' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://www.pokerq4.com/high-stakes-poker-season-8-cancelled-was-hsp-full-tilt-charade-1015]weep you who doubted me. High Stakes Poker was a con job from the git go. It was a fraud perpetuated by Full Tilt Poker. Most of the players were NOT playing with real money, and you called me names and dissed my character.
I don't know that I ever doubted you... then again, I don't know that I ever posted much about the issue.
To me, this is kind of a no-brainer. It's well-known that most of the famous poker players get backed by their sponsors, and it wouldn't surprise me if Full Tilt did the same thing. The mismanagement of players funds then would get mixed in and I can see how it became a giant mess.
I still believe that the Ponzi scheme that now appears to be Full Tilt Poker didn't start out that way, but poor decisions and a lack of control quickly made it one.
BTW, my s/n has nothing to do with poker... I picked the name long before poker reached it's dizzying popularity. It's just a random word I made up at the time.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
May 10th, 2012 at 3:52:11 AM
permalink
I think the article is misleading.
Sure they were backed by FullTilt and while it wasnt their money to lose, other things were at stake;
1) if they won a big pot, they got to keep some of the profit (I assume 50%, as thats how it usally works).
2) if they kept losing pots, they would not be asked back on the show. The show is good for their image and point 1 above.
3) if they kept losing pots, the sponsor may question their ability and end the sponsorship period.
Think of it like this, 4 people sat round the table funded by full tilt, people like The Mouth, Hellmuth and Negraneu came to the table hoping to take money from this 'team'. They knew that in advance, and understood the risks.
These are people at the very top of the game. Just because it wasnt their money didnt mean it was a pointless show. It was entertainning, Gabe is my favourite host over all comers, it educated recreational players enough that they donated $$$ by signing up, and kept poker in the limelight.
You watch the clip of Negraneu losing full house to quads, look at his face, and tell me its not real. That clip alone is Poker TV Gold.
And you think these guys dont play for these stakes when the camera is not rolling? I saw some much bigger pots at the Aria in November, and there wasnt a camera in sight. High stakes poker occurs every day, its just not on GSN or ESPN anymore.
Sure they were backed by FullTilt and while it wasnt their money to lose, other things were at stake;
1) if they won a big pot, they got to keep some of the profit (I assume 50%, as thats how it usally works).
2) if they kept losing pots, they would not be asked back on the show. The show is good for their image and point 1 above.
3) if they kept losing pots, the sponsor may question their ability and end the sponsorship period.
Think of it like this, 4 people sat round the table funded by full tilt, people like The Mouth, Hellmuth and Negraneu came to the table hoping to take money from this 'team'. They knew that in advance, and understood the risks.
These are people at the very top of the game. Just because it wasnt their money didnt mean it was a pointless show. It was entertainning, Gabe is my favourite host over all comers, it educated recreational players enough that they donated $$$ by signing up, and kept poker in the limelight.
You watch the clip of Negraneu losing full house to quads, look at his face, and tell me its not real. That clip alone is Poker TV Gold.
And you think these guys dont play for these stakes when the camera is not rolling? I saw some much bigger pots at the Aria in November, and there wasnt a camera in sight. High stakes poker occurs every day, its just not on GSN or ESPN anymore.
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
May 10th, 2012 at 6:24:51 AM
permalink
First of all, that article is 5 months old. Second, it's not much of a surprise. Third, not all those players on those shows were affiliated with sites. Sammy Farha and Eric Seidel come to mind as players who famously never linked themselves with poker sites, both of whom have multiple bracelets to prove they're not posers who need sponsor backing cash.
"Poker sure is an easy game to beat if you have the roll to keep rebuying."
May 10th, 2012 at 6:27:41 AM
permalink
Quote: zippyboyFirst of all, that article is 5 months old. Second, it's not much of a surprise. Third, not all those players on those shows were affiliated with sites. Sammy Farha and Eric Seidel come to mind as players who famously never linked themselves with poker sites, both of whom have multiple bracelets to prove they're not posers who need sponsor backing cash.
Yeah Eric never linked himself.... Maybe he liked the design of the logo?
He was one of the most sponsored full tilt pros ever....
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
May 10th, 2012 at 6:29:25 AM
permalink
oops! hmmmm, who was I thinking about then? Let's make it a game. Who can think of any other famous player to regularly appear on those type shows who was never affiliated with poker sites? Scotty Nguyen maybe?
"Poker sure is an easy game to beat if you have the roll to keep rebuying."
May 10th, 2012 at 6:59:07 AM
permalink
Quote: zippyboyoops! hmmmm, who was I thinking about then? Let's make it a game. Who can think of any other famous player to regularly appear on those type shows who was never affiliated with poker sites? Scotty Nguyen maybe?
Nope.
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
May 10th, 2012 at 7:04:10 AM
permalink
unscrupulous poker players, dishonest casino enterprises,
gee, i couldn't have seen that coming...
gee, i couldn't have seen that coming...
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
May 10th, 2012 at 7:24:44 AM
permalink
Quote: WongBounscrupulous poker players, dishonest casino enterprises,
gee, i couldn't have seen that coming...
I dont see what the big deal is. Did they dupe you about the show? Not really.
I dont think you can blame the players in any way.
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
May 10th, 2012 at 8:08:04 AM
permalink
All this article does is repeat some rumours and has a quote or two from Mike Matsuw.
Shrug. Who cares? The topic is quite boring, like watching poker on TV is.
Shrug. Who cares? The topic is quite boring, like watching poker on TV is.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
May 10th, 2012 at 8:41:40 AM
permalink
Well, it all seems to me to make for "good television." I know I watched it, from time-to-time. I know they said that players brought with them "X" dollars. I don't recall them ever saying they put into action that money. It's "reality tv." I always kind of wondered why they would play against each other, when they could certainly have played against less prepared players and take their money. Of course, this surmises those other players had the bankroll. Just my 2 cents. Not too bothered by it all.
Never count your winnings at hour 23 of a 24-hour drive.
May 10th, 2012 at 9:14:25 AM
permalink
Quote: FleaStiffFull Tilt kept telling every one we segregate your deposits.
Actually, Full Tilt was never required to segregate the deposits.
www.fulltiltpoker.eu/terms-and-conditions
Quote: Full Tilt Poker Terms and Conditions Section 8.9Customer funds are not segregated from company funds, but it is the intention of Vantage Ltd to meet its liabilities as they fall due.
Always look for opportunities.
May 10th, 2012 at 9:54:53 AM
permalink
Quote: bushmanWell, it all seems to me to make for "good television." I know I watched it, from time-to-time. I know they said that players brought with them "X" dollars. I don't recall them ever saying they put into action that money. It's "reality tv." I always kind of wondered why they would play against each other, when they could certainly have played against less prepared players and take their money. Of course, this surmises those other players had the bankroll. Just my 2 cents. Not too bothered by it all.
No matter how they were staked or bankrolled, they all got $13,000 an hour that was broadcast. If they did 8 hours, and only got on TV for 30 minutes, they were paid $6,500. They ran a lot pots twice or more to reduce the variance, nobody wanted to go home broke after getting a bad beat. They wanted good TV, some large pots, but basically go home with what they bought plus 13k an hour, which to be fair, is a great deal. People like Hellmuth and Negraneu are good for poker TV and I guess made more from the 13k an hour than others. You see some of the lesser known players turn up and play 3 hands all night, but you dont see them invited back.
You can slag off FullTilt all you want (and I think FullTilt were a poorly run company), but this 'product' achieved what it set out to very well in my opinion. Guys coming home from the pub, watching the TV, then blowing a few $$ on the computer before bed. Without the pros on TV you get less 'fish' attempting to become the next big thing on FullTilt, and without the fish donating the $$ you cant afford to pay the pros, or the TV crew or buy the TV time. This is the poker circle of life. As bad as FullTilt was, without them the poker landscape would be very different to what it is now. Massive damage has been done, by a very small number of individuals, but the world will get over it. I hope HTP, PAD and TheBigGame come back.
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
May 10th, 2012 at 10:44:05 AM
permalink
I always said it was a con job. In real life, pro
players never bet that kind of money against
other pro's in the same skill range as them,
its pointless. All they end up doing is trading
each others money back and forth.
Nobody used their own money, it was given to
them outside the set and they gave it back
when they left. They were there mostly for
camera face time, and to push their poker sites.
These guys make all their real money in back
room games with rich doctors from NY and
businessmen from all over the world. When
the rich guys lose they can brag at home that
a big star took his money so it was OK.
players never bet that kind of money against
other pro's in the same skill range as them,
its pointless. All they end up doing is trading
each others money back and forth.
Nobody used their own money, it was given to
them outside the set and they gave it back
when they left. They were there mostly for
camera face time, and to push their poker sites.
These guys make all their real money in back
room games with rich doctors from NY and
businessmen from all over the world. When
the rich guys lose they can brag at home that
a big star took his money so it was OK.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
May 10th, 2012 at 2:20:58 PM
permalink
Quote: MikeVActually, Full Tilt was never required to segregate the deposits.
www.fulltiltpoker.eu/terms-and-conditions
This is fascinating to me. I wonder when it was written into the terms and conditions. If it was an upfront rule, then prosecuting the business as a Ponzi scheme will be next to impossible, as players were "informed" of the way funds were handled. This would almost cross into lawsuit territory, based on when the rule was written and how many players are affected (meaning if you signed before this, you would have to be made aware of the terms). I don't think a simple "Our terms have changed" letter would work in this case.
I still believe the company was just poorly managed overall. However this changes my opinion of those in charge a little bit.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
May 10th, 2012 at 2:32:50 PM
permalink
Quote: EvenBobAll they end up doing is trading each others money back and forth.
What's wrong with that?
Trade money back and forth and get paid from, I've read a figure of $1,500 (but that was first season), up to, if WoE's post is accurate, an average of 13000*13*(0.25..0.75)/24=$3,000+ an hour... not a bad deal. Even for a top pro.
Also I agree the article is not very well substantiated.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
May 10th, 2012 at 3:14:27 PM
permalink
I only skimmed the thread, but High Stakes Poker was basically an infomercial. Airtime was bought and used to promote online poker with a few commercials scattered within. This was not a legitimate program purchased by GSN just like Poker After Dark on NBC was purchased by FTP. It was no different than people that buy airtime to promote their music, exercise program, or "You'll make so much money" scams. I thought this was widely known, maybe not. The WSOP is about the only poker programming that is a legitimate TV program.
May 10th, 2012 at 3:28:44 PM
permalink
Quote: P90What's wrong with that?
.
In a private game, nothing. The games on
HST were filmed in 3 days, with 3 ten hour
sessions. Lots of people were scheduled
to play so you had people coming and going
all the time. If you lost a lot of money you
might not have a chance to win it back.
But they weren't playing with their own money.
It was really just another fake reality TV show.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
May 10th, 2012 at 4:11:43 PM
permalink
Quote: EvenBobIn a private game, nothing. The games on
HST were filmed in 3 days, with 3 ten hour
sessions. Lots of people were scheduled
to play so you had people coming and going
all the time. If you lost a lot of money you
might not have a chance to win it back.
But they weren't playing with their own money.
It was really just another fake reality TV show.
What's wrong with that?
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
May 10th, 2012 at 4:47:15 PM
permalink
I always assumed that the sponsored players were staked, that isn't a surprise. The super rich amateurs were probably playing with their own money, but I am sure they knew the pros were staked as well.
I still thought the show was good TV, although the first couple seasons were the best. I liked Gabe Kaplan's commentary a lot.
You could consider that the WSOP is the only legitimate poker TV but even there a decent percentage of players are staked. For entertainment value HSP was the best because they showed more hands so you could see the history betwen the players. In the WSOP broadcasts they show mostly random pots involving famous people getting it all in.
I still thought the show was good TV, although the first couple seasons were the best. I liked Gabe Kaplan's commentary a lot.
You could consider that the WSOP is the only legitimate poker TV but even there a decent percentage of players are staked. For entertainment value HSP was the best because they showed more hands so you could see the history betwen the players. In the WSOP broadcasts they show mostly random pots involving famous people getting it all in.
May 10th, 2012 at 5:11:23 PM
permalink
Quote: WizardofEnglandWhat's wrong with that?
Nothing, if they had told us it was all faked and they
were playing with Monopoly money. But nobody
would have watched, so they made a huge deal
out of the amounts being played.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
May 10th, 2012 at 5:35:47 PM
permalink
Quote: EvenBobNothing, if they had told us it was all faked and they
were playing with Monopoly money. But nobody
would have watched, so they made a huge deal
out of the amounts being played.
Exactly, I use to watch this show,
But I would have not if I knew most of the players had no skin in the game.
May 10th, 2012 at 5:45:25 PM
permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
May 10th, 2012 at 7:18:08 PM
permalink
Quote: jml24You could consider that the WSOP is the only legitimate poker TV but even there a decent percentage of players are staked. For entertainment value HSP was the best because they showed more hands so you could see the history betwen the players. In the WSOP broadcasts they show mostly random pots involving famous people getting it all in.
Being staked is different than the allegations made in the article. If you're staked, you're still playing to win because (a) presumably you still have some skin in your game and you want to make as much as possible for yourself, and (b) you're obligated to make as much as possible for your backer(s). If you're given a bankroll that you don't get to keep - win or lose - you'd probably play to entertain the crowd.
And the final days of the WSOP main event last year were actually broadcast LIVE. Some of you I'm sure would think it would be worse than watching paint dry, but I found it fascinating.
May 10th, 2012 at 7:54:00 PM
permalink
Quote: fremont4everpresumably you still have some skin in your game and you want to make as much as possible for yourself,
Insiders have been saying for years it was faked. Does
anybody really believe that little toad Daniel Negreanu
would bring a million dollars to a poker game? In cash?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
May 10th, 2012 at 7:56:40 PM
permalink
Quote: EvenBobInsiders have been saying for years it was faked. Does anybody really believe that little toad Daniel Negreanu would bring a million dollars to a poker game? In cash?
Which is funny, because he was not a Full Tilt player... at least, not one who was a "sponsor/spokesperson" player.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
May 10th, 2012 at 8:09:17 PM
permalink
A big criticism about the players by people who
knew them, was most of them didn't have hundreds
of thousands in cash just laying around. Most of
them don't do nearly as well as their reputations
made out.
knew them, was most of them didn't have hundreds
of thousands in cash just laying around. Most of
them don't do nearly as well as their reputations
made out.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
