Cashier error ethics poll

In the Has a dealer ever payed you on a loss or tie and what did you do if anything? thread, I made a comparison of a cashier error to a dealer error. But it got me thinking about a different kinds of error.

What if a cage cashier gave you too much money when cashing you out. Would you alert her and return the excess? Similarly, a sports bookie or keno clerk might pay a winner too much. Keep it or return it?

My point is, all of these people work for the casino. But they all have the type of jobs that can be compared to the clerk at a 7-11: At the end of the day, they have to balance their cash drawer to the penny.

So what would you do if they paid too much?

The choices are simple.

Note: Unauditable errors are those errors such as a dealer paying too much, pushing a loser, paying a push, etc. It also includes a sales clerk who somehow manages to put an item in your bag without ringing it up, or ringing it up for less than the correct price, or allowing you to use a coupon you don't really qualify for.

Very interesting question. I am normally very honest and usually correct cashiers at grocery/retail stores. But in a Casino its different. I've been the beneficiary of dealer errors and have not said a thing. I think I wouldn't say anything at the cage either. I can't explain the difference, maybe because when I enter a casino I know they will do everything in their power to get all my money, and my goal is to get theirs.

I can't see a casino not keeping track of money with as much degree of detail as possible.

Sure, on table games payments complicate matters, and there's no real-time electronic record of each play (there is a tape, I assume, of everything that goes on at each table). But there must be a way to keep track, approximately, without having to review every tape of every table. For one thing there are definite amounts of money in chips, and in cash and markers. I wont' try to guess how casinos do it, but I'd appreciate any info our board insiders care to share.

Quote: gchyld308

Very interesting question. I am normally very honest and usually correct cashiers at grocery/retail stores. But in a Casino its different. I've been the beneficiary of dealer errors and have not said a thing. I think I wouldn't say anything at the cage either. I can't explain the difference, maybe because when I enter a casino I know they will do everything in their power to get all my money, and my goal is to get theirs.

Love it.
Casino do everything in their power to pay by the honest results of the cards or dice with no known mistakes tolerated with biased correction in anyone's favor.
Even though this is clearly not believed, this is actually the deal.
Keep in mind that grocery and retail stores do everything in their power - equally so - to generate business also, or else they too go out of business. What, do you think the Speedy-Mart doughnut is baked fresh every day using only the most wholesome natural ingredients?

I'm equally honest at a casino OR a grocery store, because it's about me and my actions.
I don't use the old "it's okay to accept money wrongly from someone or some company by calling them The Evil Empire Darth Vader" excuse.

an honest person should correct cashier errors IMO no matter casino or otherwise

dealer errors: I correct both for me and against me if I know it instantly. If I review an error in my favor in my mind, uncertain at first, then later sure that the dealer goofed to my benefit, I let it go. As the Wizard has noted somewhere, an unnoticed error corrected later seems to irritate the dealers as much as anything... sort of a "thanks for making me look bad, a**hole" . There is also a certain confidence that the mistakes against the player pile up more than for the player to sooth the conscience; the Wizard has also said he suspects that as well.

I can't speak for the Wizard but correct me if I am wrong.

PS: didnt vote, nothing was a fit.

Quote: odiousgambit

an honest person should correct cashier errors IMO no matter casino or otherwise

dealer errors: I correct both for me and against me if I know it instantly. If I review an error in my favor in my mind, uncertain at first, then later sure that the dealer goofed to my benefit, I let it go. As the Wizard has noted somewhere, an unnoticed error corrected later seems to irritate the dealers as much as anything... sort of a "thanks for making me look bad, a**hole" .

Not really - UNLESS that was the intention; quite often it is. Strange as this may sound, for some player there is a certain glee in showing up and taking shots at a dealer. Not all of the player's table juice comes from the result of the cards, trust me.

Quote: odiousgambit

There is also a certain confidence that the mistakes against the player pile up more than for the player to sooth the conscience; the Wizard has also said he suspects that as well.

I can't believe that Mike would espouse this position. It would otherwise be in the dealers' interest to help the players if uncaught. If caught, the dealer is in trouble regardless by virtue of making errors. Keep in mind that players' good fortune increases both table action and dealer tips. As for Mike's speaking on behalf of the dealer's conscience, I am surprised and would suppose that Mike is making a guess, he was never a dealer as far as I know, and he may be sometimes off the mark when speaking for dealers.

I don't think a cashier has ever made a monetary mistake. I can think of a few instances where the casino has made a mistake in my favor. Quite frankly I don't see anything morally wrong with keeping a few bucks due to an error. However, when you work in a casino you're held to a higher standard when playing.

Shortly after I got my first dealing job I was playing at another casino. The dealer pushed my loser, and I let it go. But about a year ago, after learning that I could lose my license for accepting money that was mistakenly paid to me, I had a dealer try to pay me $70 for a hard ten, which I didn't bet. Not sure if I would've accepted if I didn't have a job "on the line" so to speak. Now when mistakes are made, I'm alwasy honest about it.

Quote: ewjones080

I don't think a cashier has ever made a monetary mistake. I can think of a few instances where the casino has made a mistake in my favor. Quite frankly I don't see anything morally wrong with keeping a few bucks due to an error. However, when you work in a casino you're held to a higher standard when playing.

Shortly after I got my first dealing job I was playing at another casino. The dealer pushed my loser, and I let it go. But about a year ago, after learning that I could lose my license for accepting money that was mistakenly paid to me, I had a dealer try to pay me $70 for a hard ten, which I didn't bet. Not sure if I would've accepted if I didn't have a job "on the line" so to speak. Now when mistakes are made, I'm alwasy honest about it.

It actually becomes very easy. For some anyway. great to hear!

I would return any error that may cause someone else some grief. I have gone both ways on dealer errors, usually If I am uncertain of the win/loss i say nothing. It seems to me that dealer errors are more often in my favor. I sometimes wonder if i am being tested. I have never seen an error from a cashier at the cage. And think they would be pretty rare. If a dealer mispayed me in my favor and i didn't say anything it would nag at my conscience for awhile, so I try to be honest. But then again i have to wonder how honest are the dealers:/

If I detect it at the point of transaction, I always return errors in my favor. In the same manner, I always expect, and will request, correction for overcharges or shortchanges. Fair is fair.

I'd certainly report a cage error right away, either way. The Hills have a Thousand Eyes.
Table errors might even get past a player, especially the $5 type.

BTW, If you get paid in crisp, fresh money, I certainly would double-check.

Quote: Paigowdan

I can't believe that Mike would espouse this position.

Well, I made a little effort to try and find some of this, check it out:

Quote: the wizard about dealer mistakes in player's favor in an ask-the-W

This is a delicate question. Personally I just keep my mouth shut. Once in Atlantic City I saw another player correct the dealer for an overpayment and neither the dealer nor pit boss thanked the player for his honesty. If the casino doesn’t seem to care then why should I? I also view making the correct payment as part of a game... Another reason to not say anything is that the dealer will have to call the pit boss over and confess his mistake. Anyone can make a mistake once in a while but if the dealer is known to be mistake prone already then, yes, it could put his job in jeopardy.

https://wizardofodds.com/ask-the-wizard/dealers/ (a little more than a third of the way down the page)

I worked at a casino in arizona as cashier. Some guy came up and gave me a bill I thought was a 100 and I gave him 5 20's... About 2 minutes later I realized what I had done. It was only a 10. The manager called the eyes and they confirmed. They traced the guy and he refused to return the money until the boss threatened to call the police. He gave the money back after that.

There was also a high roller that cashed in some purple. It was mandatory for all cashiers to get a double check to confirm the payout. The cashier never got a double and over paid the guy by 2k. It was verified later that night after her count was short. They went to his room the next morning and he returned the money, but the cashier got fired.

One time I was playing bj switch at casino royals and the dealer paid me when he hit 22 twice. He was going to pay it again a 3rd time but the pit boss saw his error. They never asked me to return the money he paid me and I was pretty shocked. In my heart I knew it was wrong but for some reason I didn't say anything. Other than that I have always spoke up if I get paid incorrectly.

Quote: odiousgambit

Well, I made a little effort to try and find some of this, check it out:

Quote: the Wizard about dealer mistakes in the player's favor in ask-the-W

This is a delicate question. Personally I just keep my mouth shut. Once in Atlantic City I saw another player correct the dealer for an overpayment and neither the dealer nor pit boss thanked the player for his honesty. If the casino doesn’t seem to care then why should I? I also view making the correct payment as part of a game... Another reason to not say anything is that the dealer will have to call the pit boss over and confess his mistake. Anyone can make a mistake once in a while but if the dealer is known to be mistake prone already then, yes, it could put his job in jeopardy.

https://wizardofodds.com/ask-the-wizard/dealers/ (a little more than a third of the way down the page)

Wow.
Good job Dick Tracy. I'll say this:
1. Mike's a great mathematician, perhaps not an ethicist, even though he's a bit of a philospher. John Von Neumann, yes, Plato or Immanuel Kant, maybe not. The whole Point-of-view approach of the AP world is an "us-versus-them" view, and to have street credibility as an AP leader, you have to have such an official or public position as an Anti-casino AP player or leader, at least for a while in this area. Card counting, hole-carding, camoflage, the whole "Beat The Dealer" (to death with a stick) approach to be another Ian Anderson, Stanford Wong, Max Ruben, et al, with AP street cred in this area. This may be a "Rick Ross" situation to a much milder degree, referring to the major rap singer who projected a facade of once being a fancy-pants major crack cocaine distributor, cop fighter, pimp with "bottom bitches," etc., - super street cred and all that, but in reality he was a middle-class corrections officer actually working on law enforcement's side. What a scandal, but people eventually said so what, as he's both immensely talented rapper and superbly knowledgeable in the business, so WTF that he was once a middle-class cop and not a ghetto crack distributor. Of course, there was a bit of "And we thought you were a ROLE MODEL!!!" let-down. He learned his gang signs at the Police Academy, and not in the streets.

2. Stripes change. Perhaps he used to be a full-blown Advantage Player espousing to some degree their "everything's fair game when against the casino, and nothing's fair game when against the player." He now works for a major casino operator with a huge role in game protection. People change, people mellow, people reflect, and people see things different as time passes. How many of us dress like we once did in our high school year book picture or high school days (daze), or have the same outlooks? I never started or got involved with the AP end when I entered gaming and gambling, and always viewed it as a "correct or incorrect table action" without regard to POV or which side was the victim, just if it occurs, or was avoided or corrected, that's all. I also never had an "us-versus-them" view of players versus casinos, as it was just people playng against the results of the cards and dice actually, and not "for or against" the casinos or the players.

3. Once again, the "I don't want to get any dealer in trouble" line rears its head. ALWAYS, and I mean always, if you point a wrong payout as it is being made, that is, NOT taken as a player who knows it is wrong, then it is not a completed wrong dealer transaction. It is a "caught and corrected" before it is complete, and is a non-event. If a dealer comes out of the chip rack with four chips to pay a 4:1 flush, but either sees it is only a straight, or is told by the player that it is only a straight at 2:1, and so dealer pays 2:1, it is a correct, non-error situation. Also, if the player returns the overpayment during the dealer, and then the dealer sees the situation and returns the overpayment to the rack, it is also a non-error. If you let the round of play finish, especially if you start the next round of play, THEN at that point a dealer error is indeed locked in and would have to be beacked out with floor intervention. So is taking wrong money, if you knew it as such, at that point too. I have come across many dealer errors while as a player, and had always spoken immediately on a known error regardless of direction or favoring, and there was never an issue: no floor, no write up, no money in my pocket that wasn't supposed to be there, etc. If I hadn't, then there might have been write-ups and even firings.

Quote: Paigowdan

He now works for a major casino operator with a huge role in game protection. People change, people mellow, people reflect, and people see things different as time passes.

As you know I had to joke about this as soon as I knew he took the job. We may not hear from him now for the reason you cite, or simply because he isn't following the thread, but I would be impressed if he still maintains what he wrote is how he thinks now.

Quote:

"caught and corrected" before it is complete

If I instantly know it is wrong I instantly speak up, no matter who benefits. I often am confronted with realizing it is wrong a bit down the road. I get the feeling you don't realize how often this can be due to how quickly you yourself might know something is wrong. But let me give you a good example. I can still remember being quite the newbie at Craps; believe me, the only error I could have caught then was being paid wrong on a 1:1 passline bet. Even now, believing it is a bit important, I have trouble quickly confirming I am being paid right; after reflection that, say, I know I get paid 3:2 on some bet, but since it takes reflection that makes it too slow *unless* I have vowed to check it ahead of time. If I confirmed every pay my usual slow way every time the game would slow down too much, even now. I would be easy to cheat.

The example: a dealer [distracted by another player] who was used to me placing two reds on my odds bets continued to pay me that way on a round or two when I had dropped down to one, licking some recently inflicted wounds. At the time it looked right to me too. Later as I switched back to 2 reds I realized what I *thought* he had done. To think that is probably to be right, but, sorry Dan, at that point it's just water under the bridge. And, yeah, I soothed my conscience thinking about those times I no doubt didnt get paid right when it was just happening too fast for me to check thoroughly, or when a pit boss corrected a situation not to my satisfaction.

Perhaps the Wizard is not in a position now to say what he would do, but perhaps also PaigowDan is the only one I know who might say he would try to get something like that corrected. Unlike some here, this makes me respect you, but your standards seem unrealistic to me.

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I voted that I would return the error at the cage and have done so. Although Dan espouses the position that all errors pointed out are happily accepted I disagree. I outlined my dealer position on the other error thread.

Part of my reason for believing that some people don't want their errors pointed out is from my contracting experience. The first time I had a double payment on a contract (about a $1000) I phoned the government employee that had ordered the work once the error was discovered (the cheque had already been deposited). He reluctanctly referred me to his supervisor. The supervisor was also not happy with me 'creating problems' and wanted me to leave it alone. I persisted and finally got the purchasing agent who listened to my story and explained the file was closed and they had no easy procedure for taking the money back.

Small companies and individuals of course always did not find it too much trouble to have a credit on their account.

they installed double exposure blackjack in florida recently and I caught an entire forty minute period of pushing on a tie, only problem was I could not bet table max because I did not want the eyes on me, still walked with a nice profit, not sure if anyone knows but how big of a player edge would double exposure be with ties pushing

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I was cashing in $800 in chips at the cage. It was 1 purple ($500) and 3 black ($300). The cashier spread the chips out in front of her and said $1600. I pointed out that she should count it again. She realized her mistake and said she was counting the purple as $100 and the blacks as $500 each. She said that she had just received a phone call that her niece was in a car accident and she was very upset and not thinking straight.

She happened to be the cage manager and couldn't leave until she was relieved by someone. For my honesty, she offered me a comp for two at the buffet. I was on my way home home so I declined the comp.

I don't know about cashiers, but the IRS just corrected an error I made in their favor, and increased my refund.

I have new faith in the Federal Government!

Quote: teddys

I don't know about cashiers, but the IRS just corrected an error I made in their favor, and increased my refund.

That's like a hoodlum leaving you bus fare after he holds you up at gun point.

Quote: Nareed

That's like a hoodlum leaving you bus fare after he holds you up at gun point.

I don't think the hooldums make you fill out the paperwork.

Quote: Doc

I don't think the hooldums make you fill out the paperwork.

Well, no. They're violent, not sadistic (usually).

Quote: Paigowdan

The whole Point-of-view approach of the AP world is an "us-versus-them" view,.

Because it really is us versus them, Dan. The casino's
aren't evil, not really. They have one goal, and thats
to get as much of the customers money as humanly
possible. An AP's goal is to take as much of the casino's
money as possible.

Whats wrong with that? It would be great if all you got
was sheeple to shear, but a wolf does occasionally
slip past security..

Quote: DJTeddyBear

... all of these people work for the casino. But they all have the type of jobs that can be compared to the clerk at a 7-11: At the end of the day, they have to balance their cash drawer to the penny.

Are there different ethical rules for profiting from a blackjack dealer's error compared to profiting from an oddsmaker's error in the sportsbook? For example, if an incompetent oddsmaker sets a foolish line on a football game, it's ethically acceptable for a savvy sports gambler to exploit the mistake, right? If so, it ought to be ethically acceptable to exploit the mistakes of an incompetent blackjack dealer who made a simple arithmetic error and paid a losing hand.

Quote: teddys

I don't know about cashiers, but the IRS just corrected an error I made in their favor, and increased my refund.

I have new faith in the Federal Government!

Same thing happened to me. Since I didn't have a job most of last year, I qualified for the EIC. I usually don't even bother doing the worksheet for the EIC since I have no kids and make way too much money, when I am actually working. They sent me a letter saying I qualified, and that I should fill out this extra paperwork, send it back, and they'd pay me.

I was flabbergasted, to be honest.

For me, this is not hypothetical. I bought two dozen doughnuts at Dunkin' and was only charged for one. This is a place where one person takes your order at one place and another person fills the order and the cashier takes the money. They never would have known had I walked out with two dozen while only paying for one. I made them charge me for the second dozen!

On tables, I saw many times (>5) dealer short pay player and player didn't notice at all.
I noticed it but didn't say anything because it's not my business.
But I never saw a dealer over pay a player.

Quote: pokerface

On tables, I saw many times (>5) dealer short pay player and player didn't notice at all.
I noticed it but didn't say anything because it's not my business.
But I never saw a dealer over pay a player.

Granted you are not the one being shortchanged, however I would have to disagree with you and I would have spoke up. If you were walking in the casino and you saw a person drop money and not notice would you keep walking and not say anything? Whats the difference?

Quote: only1choice

If you were walking in the casino and you saw a person drop money and not notice would you keep walking and not say anything? Whats the difference?

Big difference.
a person drop money, it is just the person's money. I will certainly tell the person.
If a dealer short pay a player, that's casino's money vs. player's money.
If I side with the player (even if the player is right and we know that), I could be putting myself in danger.
We saw those in movies, in books.

Quote: pokerface

Big difference.
a person drop money, it is just the person's money. I will certainly tell the person.
If a dealer short pay a player, that's casino's money vs. player's money.
If I side with the player (even if the player is right and we know that), I could be putting myself in danger.
We saw those in movies, in books.

Danger??? Is this 2012? Unless your playing in the mobs private gaming room. Tell the player he is getting screwed.