I'm Puzzled

Just listened to an hour long program on PBS
about discipline in High School. We're losing
over 40% of the best HS teachers because they
can't control their classrooms. A lady called in
who retired after 25 years and said if you have
a class of 30 students, about 5 of them will be
troublemakers. She spent over 50% of her time
trying to control them, to the detriment of
the students who were there to learn.

This totally puzzles me. When I was in school,
we had those guys who were bad seeds, but if
they misbehaved at all, they were sent to the
vice principles office and given detention after
school. 3 of those for any one class and you
were kicked out and had to take the class again
next semester. It worked extremely well, I
can't imagine 5 kids controlling a class, not in
my wildest imagination.

Whats going on, have they forgotten how to run
schools? My kids all went to private Christian
schools because my wife insisted on it. They never
had any problems at all. I don't get it, take out
the troublemakers, how hard is that. I'd sue a
school for not teaching my kid if I was a parent
with a kid in a school like that.

I can't speak to this first hand, but I think if a teacher sends students to the vice principal's office too often it makes the teacher look like he can't control his classroom himself.

Quote: EvenBob

... When I was in school,
we had those guys who were bad seeds, but if
they misbehaved at all, they were sent to the
vice principles office and given detention after
school. 3 of those for any one class and you
were kicked out and had to take the class again
next semester.

... I'd sue a
school for ....

You've almost answered your own question. Public school administrators seem to be quaking in their boots -- they won't discipline students for fear of being sued by the parents in our I-can-sue-anyone-and-get-paid-for-it society. It's the parents of the disruptive students who are the loudest, so the administrators often won't back up the teachers on discipline issues.

You don't think the parents believe what the teachers say about their children's behavior, do you? Why, Johnny already told them how mean the teacher is.

Quote: Wizard

I can't speak to this first hand, but I think if a teacher sends students to the vice principal's office too often it makes the teacher look like he can't control his classroom himself.

The point of the show was, teachers are quitting
because controlling the classroom is never taught
in college. They have zero knowledge on how to
do it. Part of controlling a classroom is getting
rid of the problem students. What else can you
do. In any other part of society, if you are a problem
to everybody else, they get rid of you. Try it in church,
or a movie theatre, or a grocery store, or anywhere,
and you'll be gone.

Quote: Doc

You've almost answered your own question. Public school administrators seem to be quaking in their boots -- they won't discipline students for fear of being sued by the parents .

But aren't there rules? Violate a rule and you
get punished. You can't sue a school for enforcing
the rules everybody knows are there.

Quote: EvenBob

But aren't there rules? Violate a rule and you
get punished. You can't sue a school for enforcing
the rules everybody knows are there.

Of course there are rules. That doesn't mean that they are enforced. And yes, you can sue a school for enforcing rules. Whether you win or not may be a different matter, but you can, indeed, sue. And the suit itself is what the administrators do not wish to have to deal with. They would rather just tell the teacher to deal with the situation. Of course, if the teacher deals with it in a way that upsets the parents, then it is the teacher who is blamed.

Quote: Doc

Of course there are rules. That doesn't mean that they are enforced. And yes, you can sue a school for enforcing rules.

So your kid is above the rules and can act as
he wants and steal an education from the other
students, and there's nothing the school can do
about it? I don't believe that, something isn't
right here.

Quote: EvenBob

... and there's nothing the school can do
about it? I don't believe that, something isn't
right here.

I agree -- something isn't right here. But that doesn't mean my point isn't true, just that this is one more thing screwed up in our society. Yes, there is something that the school can do about it. They choose not to, because that is the easier path for the administrator. As you said, something isn't right here.

Schools can't suspend the problem student because the parents will complain about missing work to stay home with Johnny.

The schools can't use any form of punishment with any teeth because it will upset Johnny, who will tell his parents, who will complain to the school about the harsh treatment their little angel has gotten.

Even if the parents agree that Johnny is a problem, they too are incapable of doing anything about it because we live in a society that thinks it's terrible to raise a hand to a child.

And therein lies the problem. Too many kids do not know the meaning of punishment.

I did not see the PBS special, but as the son of two educators (one who is retired, the other retiring this year) there are a LOT more factors than just being able to control the kids.

1) No Child Left Behind- This is single-handedly the worst mandate ever put out by the government. In order to make scores look good (and thus, get more funding), teachers have to teach to a test. This puts a lot of great teachers at a disadvantage, as they are forced to follow certain protocols, rather than running an efficient classroom.

In casino terms, it would be like changing blackjack procedures to the point where the old way is completely foreign. Old-school dealers are not as effective, getting less hands out per hour, which leads to less tips. The casino feels they can hire new dealers at cheaper rates who are more efficient, but something is lost by getting rid of the old dealers. It's not the best analogy, but hopefully you get my drift.

2) Discipline laws- As it's already been stated, disciplinary issues in an ADHD society are much more rampant. Kids aren't as well behaved anymore. Unfortunately, teachers have less leverage. Early in his return to high school teaching, my father witnessed a fight between two girls that was getting very violent. One student grabbed one girl, while he grabbed the other to keep them from killing each other. Later on, he found out he COULD BE FIRED for doing that. The correct protocol was to say "Stop! Stop! Stop!" before calling an administrator (from the other building) to come over and do the same thing. Luckily he only got a slap on the wrist and a note in the file.

3) Inadequate training- Student teaching and the education system for educating is highly inadequate. The focus nowadays is more based in theory rather than actual practice. A lot of student teachers leave their posts confused as to what they want to do, and many new teachers don't last more than 5 years. It's a sad state of education. On top of all that, teachers do not get paid enough in most states.

I wanted to be a teacher, but the jobs are competative and the salary is marginal. Instead I tried engineering where the jobs are only semi-competative and the salary is very acceptable...

Quote: EvenBob

The point of the show was, teachers are quitting
because controlling the classroom is never taught
in college. They have zero knowledge on how to
do it.

Graduate schools of education most definitely do instruct on classroom management.

Quote: EvenBob

Part of controlling a classroom is getting
rid of the problem students. What else can you
do. In any other part of society, if you are a problem
to everybody else, they get rid of you. Try it in church,
or a movie theatre, or a grocery store, or anywhere,
and you'll be gone.

That is nothing more or less than political pressure from the parents, the same pressure that leads to cellphone abuse, drug use and so on.

Quote: Wizard

I can't speak to this first hand, but I think if a teacher sends students to the vice principal's office too often it makes the teacher look like he can't control his classroom himself.

I went to Catholic grade school in the 50's. We had two 17 year Polish Polish-American boys in our 6th grade class. No social passing grades then. Can remember one day the two of them were in detention and went down the fire escape. The head penquin did not know what they had done, until she heard their Harley's race away LOL

Quote: EvenBob

We're losing
over 40% of the best HS teachers because they
can't control their classrooms.

What is it that makes them "best" teachers, if they can't even control their classrooms?
I think, our problem is not that we do not have good teachers (that's easily remedied), but that we don't even know any more what a "good teacher" is ...

I have to believe part of the problem is the belief that everybody has that their child is so goddamned special and precious.
Some future superstar in the making, that has to be able to express themselves because they have rights like everybody else.
Hey parents your kid isn't special, he's an asshole. Talk some sense into him before someone slaps the taste out of his mouth.

I graduated from a catholic all-boys high school in 2010. I can only assume, based upon the comments here and the fact that I have not sat in a class of a public high school, that the behavior in the classrooms I grew up in were much more regulated. Of course, there were the occasional swear words and sex jokes that friends and classmates have talked about during lunch period. Other than that, there is a strict code of conduct for the classroom, typical of a private school. Interestingly though, the dress code has been much more relaxed than other private schools that normally would have a school uniform of some sort.

It's also a lot easier to get banned from a private institution for behavioral problems.
The bar is a lot higher in public schools.