Just another comps thread

I need some inside info on how comps work. I have been told in the past that when I go on a gambling junket, they like to see 4 hours a day of play. So we go on a 3 night trip. they are looking for 12 hours of play.
The cost of the trip is $499 if you are paying rack rate. That is a 737 for a 2.5 hour flight, and a room at the casino for 3 nights. Rack rate is $200 for the room.
My wife and I have always gotten to go for free, but I am not what I would consider to be a high roller by any means. I do rack up a lot of hours. I generally avg 6 to 8 hours a day at minimum, and my wife plays about that amount of penny slots on my card as well.

In the past, I have managed to get craps ratings of $180 avg, a couple at $220 avg, and a bunch at $100-$135 avg. I don't play any other games to speak of. Besides the free trips, this level of play gets me $100 free play twice a month, and I have gotten offers to play their private course for free, which carries a $220 green fee (And it is worth every penny of that greens fee. Best place I have ever played, and I was lucky enough to play Kiawah Ocean Course). I received about $200 in comp dollars for the past trip, which was way more than we spent in food.

Since I don't know exactly what has triggered my golf offers, I don't know what to look out for. On my past trip, I played about 17-22 hours of craps for a 3 night trip. We arrived at 10:30 PM so one whole day was lost. However, during this trip, I also played Pai Gow poker for a few hours. The first time I gave them my card, and was rated at a $25 avg. However, I only play $40, $60, or $80, as I don't like dealing with quarters. I found this out when I was checking my play with the floating host (I don't have an assigned host).
So, if I have 17 hours of craps play at say a $100 avg, what does 4 hours of Pai Gow play at $25 avg do for me, or against me?
Is the extra 4 hours of gambling a good thing, or does the low avg work against me? Especially since my craps play is more than what they are already looking for?

After checking with the host, the next day I played Pai Gow for about 3 hours, but did not hand them my player card this time. I did not want to add any more $25 ratings on my play. Does anyone know for certain how this works? What should I be doing?
This is MGM property, not in Vegas.

You have a theoretical expectation to the casino. It's a simple formula:

[Decisions per Hour] * [Hours Played] * [Average Bet] * [House Edge] = Theoretical

Casinos base your comps off of your theo, not just your average bet. The comp rate varies from 10% to 40% of your theo but I'd guess the majority of casinos are in the 15-25% range. You can't reduce your trip's theo; you can only increase it. So you should definitely be turning in your card at Pai Gow, even with your lower bet. The $25 rating was probably laziness by the floorperson if you were there for hours. At some places you may be able to dispute it with your host based on prior play.

Note that at your level you may occasionally be eligible for comps based on a quick loss. If you happen to lose a couple thousand while playing craps it wouldn't hurt to point that out to the host and ask for something.

I think you are probably playing at about the right level. The casino is giving you pretty good comps. You make pretty good craps bets; maybe an expected loss of $33/hour at the craps tables. You could cut that down lower by staying away from the place/buy bets, but it really doesn't matter. I would stay away from Pai Gow and slots; minimum bets only perhaps. Pai Gow usually doesn't rate well, if at all, and slots, well ...

They are comping you almost your entire expected loss in vacation niceties (retail value), so it's like you are paying for a vacation while gambling for free.

Quote: PopCan

You have a theoretical expectation to the casino. It's a simple formula:

[Decisions per Hour] * [Hours Played] * [Average Bet] * [House Edge] = Theoretical

Casinos base your comps off of your theo, not just your average bet. The comp rate varies from 10% to 40% of your theo but I'd guess the majority of casinos are in the 15-25% range. You can't reduce your trip's theo; you can only increase it. So you should definitely be turning in your card at Pai Gow, even with your lower bet. The $25 rating was probably laziness by the floorperson if you were there for hours. At some places you may be able to dispute it with your host based on prior play.

Note that at your level you may occasionally be eligible for comps based on a quick loss. If you happen to lose a couple thousand while playing craps it wouldn't hurt to point that out to the host and ask for something.

I seem to have read somewhere that casinos plug in a figure from 1 to 2 % for BJ players, rather than the house edge of .43% True or false ?

That is correct. In addition many casinos will have a hard/average/soft skill indicator for the floor person to choose on the rating. A hard player plays Basic Strategy and avoids side bets while a soft player makes really bad mistakes and/or plays the side bets heavily. A hard player might get rated at the Basic Strategy edge, an average player at 1.5% and a soft player at 2.5%. Those are just examples; every casino is a bit different.

Thanks for the clarification.

Quote: teddys

I think you are probably playing at about the right level. The casino is giving you pretty good comps. You make pretty good craps bets; maybe an expected loss of $33/hour at the craps tables. You could cut that down lower by staying away from the place/buy bets, but it really doesn't matter. I would stay away from Pai Gow and slots; minimum bets only perhaps. Pai Gow usually doesn't rate well, if at all, and slots, well ...

They are comping you almost your entire expected loss in vacation niceties (retail value), so it's like you are paying for a vacation while gambling for free.

Thanks teddys for the quick analysis. I have always felt I was probably getting a good deal on the level of comps, but I really didn't have much to compare to.
You have confirmed my thoughts.
I also appreciate the expected loss valuation. I am too lazy to calculate it, but you have also confirmed for me that my recent losses are more than I should be expecting, given my play level. I know the game runs in streaks, so I'm not overly worried about it, although it would be nice to get a positive trip here soon.

As for playing a bit smarter, yeah I know the place bets and buy bets are not the best plays, but I get so damn bored just PL / odds. The boredom is what has really kept me from flipping over to the DP. So I cut a deal with myself, and have agreed not to bet anything worse than 2.78%, which coincidentally allows me to occasionally play the field bet without guilt. The buy 5/9, vig on the win, is 2%, the buy 4/10, vig on win is 1.67%, and the place 6/8 at 1.52% means I am able to keep almost all of my action around a 1.7% avg.

I need to get to New Mexico so I can try out those free field and free Buy 4/10 bets. That might be enough to get me to stop place betting the inside. :-)

thanks Popcan for your input. I had always wondered if the perceived skill level of the player was part of the equation.
I know my tipping has seemed to help my rating in the past, ie. I would get a more favorable avg bet than I expected.

I wonder if that has a bearing on my ratings this past trip. It seemed like every time I made a PL bet for the dealer, a 7 out came, so I just stopped betting them, and instead was just toking straight to the dealer bank. Perhaps I lost a bit of recognition doing it that way..........

Quote: RaleighCraps

As for playing a bit smarter, yeah I know the place bets and buy bets are not the best plays, but I get so damn bored just PL / odds. )

Maybe try come bet + odds for continuous action on every roll? No one can say it isn't exciting when you get all the bases loaded and those box numbers keep coming ... And the seven out is going to kill you anyways; at least with come bet+odds you will lose less.

Buying the 5/9 for $30 with $1 vig is more like 1.4%
With the 4/10 for $30 its only 1.11%...

I don't know if this is a separate junket operator or the casino is operating the junket. Who does that host work for?

Normally they rate play at carnival games rather low but look for your action at "real gambling" for your overall rating.

I believe Greens Fees are what are known as Soft Comps... it doesn't cost the casino 220 to comp you to it. Just as there is a casino rate for your hotel room there is a casino rate for the Greens Fees.

Quote: FleaStiff

I don't know if this is a separate junket operator or the casino is operating the junket.

I don't think RaleighCraps mentioned the casino, so I don't know whether there is some reason not to. I'm not certain which one he is talking about, but based on some old info I think it is a gulf coast establishment with a name that sounds like some sort of mash-up of Bo-Derrick-at-the-Mirage. ;-)

I also think there used to be a couple of people offering junkets there, but I've never taken one.

Can't put anything past Doc. :-D
But then again, since my Blog says the name, I think we should only offer very partial credit.

I feel bad that most of my casino talk now centers around Biloxi, on a Vegas board, so since this topic was generic, I left the casino off.

From my house in a 90 mile radius, I think I have at least 5 operators running junkets to Tunica, Biloxi, and AC. I have used 3 of them, plus one from Richmond, VA

Quote: FleaStiff

I don't know if this is a separate junket operator or the casino is operating the junket. Who does that host work for?

Normally they rate play at carnival games rather low but look for your action at "real gambling" for your overall rating.

I believe Greens Fees are what are known as Soft Comps... it doesn't cost the casino 220 to comp you to it. Just as there is a casino rate for your hotel room there is a casino rate for the Greens Fees.

In this case, I believe the jet is owned by a charter group, Vision Air, and I suspect that MGM pays for the charter. Sometimes I get offers directly from the casino for a trip, but mostly I just get notified by the local travel agent. On those times when I take the direct casino offer, it is on the same plane with one of the travel groups. What I was told is, when I book direct with the casino, the casino calls the travel agent and says they need a seat, so the agent loses one spot. Worse for the agent is, they also do not get credit for my play now, since I am not in their junket. How the rest of it works, no one will really say. I keep asking different people and keep getting small bits of info to try and piece together a picture.

The course is Fallen Oak, and is owned by the casino. Only way to get on is to be staying at the casino. The day my buddy and I played there was a single out an hour in front of us, and a 3-some about 2 hours after us. That was the total play for the Friday before Labor day. My name was on a locker, next to Nick Faldo, while Bernard Langer's name was a couple doors down, along with a few NBA players. It was truly an awesome experience. And yes, they even had a cart girl out on the course for us! It seems the casino business generates an excess of cash I guess........

Forgot to answer the host question... The host I dealt with was the casino host. No relationship to the junket. That is my next stop. I am going to check with my Junket contact and see what they were given in regards to my play hours and ratings. I am led to believe the junket operator pay is directly related to those two figures, so if the numbers reflect the numbers I was given before ' the adjustment' was supposedly made, then I will know if it was real or BS.