Whats The Bankroll of Vegas?
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around to different casinos so he can 'play against
the BR of Vegas.' How much is the BR of Vegas?
How much money does a casino keep on hand to
pay off players. Is it on the premise in cash?
has to have enough cash on hand to cover every chip
in the casino. Some think its more. How many $ in chips
does a casino like MGM or Bellagio or Wynn have on
the floor?
Quote: EvenBobFrom what I'm reading, a lot of people think a casino
has to have enough cash on hand to cover every chip
in the casino. Some think its more. How many $ in chips
does a casino like MGM or Bellagio or Wynn have on
the floor?
I heard, and this is totally unsubstantiated but it makes sense, that a casino only has to have enough cash on hand to cover every chip at the OPEN tables. So if a table isn't open and the clear plastic cover thing is covering the chips, they don't need cash on hand to cover those chips specifically.
However, this seems like it wouldn't really make a difference, since during busy times nearly every table is open soooo...they would pretty much need to have enough cash for all the chips at all times anyway.
I have heard this from various sources, and it was even quoted as the motivation for the heist in the Ocean's 11 remake (Clooney instead of Sinatra). What I am not clear on is whether they have to already have cash equivalent to all of the chips in the dealers' racks, the boxman's stacks, etc.Quote: JimMorrisonCasinos are required to have cash on hand to cover all the chips ....
Once the chips have been purchased by players, then it seems completely appropriate for them to have to keep the cash on hand for those chips (and potential winnings of all active bets) to be redeemed. Why should they need to have cash on hand equivalent of the chip inventory that the house is holding on the floor?
Note: I'm not claiming they aren't required to; I am asking why they should be required to.
I'm sure the Wizard's actuarial skills could estimate the amount of cash on hand needed for a given casino size.
http://www.gaming.nv.gov/bankroll_formula.htm
You can download a spreadsheet from there if you want to calculate your own. Cursory review looks like it's so much per gaming machine and so much per table among other things.
Mark
A friend (no longer friends) was there playing craps by himself, and gaming came in, they stopped him in the middle of his hand, and immediately started counting down all the chips in the casino...it was a weird sight...within 3 hours, the doors were locked and the delears were out on their ears...
As a matter of fact, we all met up at Eldorado for drinks that night and to shoot craps (the dealers were friends of ours)
the author said don't get caught talking about
this subject in a casino, because a dealer will
tell the pit and the pit will tell security and you
will be detained and questioned. I wonder if
he's exaggerating.
Quote: marksolbergHere's a link to the Nevada Bankroll Regulations http://www.gaming.nv.gov/bankroll_formula.htm
The mandated bankroll by the Board is fairly minimal. No solvent casino would think of holding less money. It's just a way to keep the near bankrupt places (like Siena) honest.
There is no law that a casino must have enough cash to cover the chips. In fact, the insurers for casinos substantially raise the price of the policy if the casino keeps too much cash on hand. I imagine that the guys who win more than a million would prefer not to be paid in cash anyway.
Keep in mind that $32 million ($100 banknote) is a standard size shrink wrapped pallet for the Bureau of Engraving and Printing. It weights 704 lbs without the packaging.
Quote: TIMSPEEDThis is one of the reasons they shut down the Siena, in Reno...it didn't have the minimum bankroll requirement...
A friend (no longer friends) was there playing craps by himself, and gaming came in, they stopped him in the middle of his hand, and immediately started counting down all the chips in the casino...it was a weird sight...within 3 hours, the doors were locked and the delears were out on their ears...
Wait, when did this happen? It was open mid-January when I was there.
Quote: MathExtremistWait, when did this happen? It was open mid-January when I was there.
The Siena's website homepage displays the following statement:
"It is with profound regret that we inform you that effective October 21, 2010 at 12:00 Noon, Siena Hotel Spa & Casino and its entire facility located at One South Lake Street, Reno, Nevada 89501 will be closed.
"We will continue to exert every effort during the remaining course of the bankruptcy to obtain the financing necessary to reopen and reposition the Siena and remain hopeful that this can be accomplished quickly. We thank you sincerely for the patronage you have shown over the years."
Quote: MathExtremistWait, when did this happen? It was open mid-January when I was there.
Quote: EvenBobThe Siena's website homepage displays the following statement:
"It is with profound regret that we inform you that effective October 21, 2010 at 12:00 Noon, Siena Hotel Spa & Casino and its entire facility located at One South Lake Street, Reno, Nevada 89501 will be closed.
"We will continue to exert every effort during the remaining course of the bankruptcy to obtain the financing necessary to reopen and reposition the Siena and remain hopeful that this can be accomplished quickly. We thank you sincerely for the patronage you have shown over the years."
Something doesn't seem to fit. The Siena closed in Oct. 2010 (according to EvenBob's quote), was open when I visited in October 2011, was open in Jan. 2012 when MathExtremist visited, had the "we are closed" notice on a web site for EB to quote recently, and now has a web site that says, "The Siena is now taking reservations!" (at http://www.sienareno.com/). My how things change fast these days.
Quote: DocSomething doesn't seem to fit. The Siena closed in Oct. 2010 (according to EvenBob's quote), was open when I visited in October 2011, was open in Jan. 2012 when MathExtremist visited, had the "we are closed" notice on a web site for EB to quote recently, and now has a web site that says, "The Siena is now taking reservations!" (at http://www.sienareno.com/). My how things change fast these days.
They got bought and reopened as a higher scale
place.
Treasury, not Gaming Board, regulations also apply to moving money.
Gaming Board regulations also apply to times at which boxes may be swapped out.
I understand that for some reason the coins from the hard count room are held for one week. I've no idea why.
Even during bad times The Venetian kept their craps tables fully funded and somewhere there was an estimate of how much it cost The Venetian to do this rather than to reduce the number of chips in the box.
Quote: pacomartinKeep in mind that $6.4 million is a standard size shrink wrapped pallet for the Bureau of Engraving and Printing. It weights 1500 lbs without the packaging.
In what bills, fivers?
To the extent that I know, $1 million in $100 bills fits neatly with just a bit of room to spare into an industry standard side by side legal briefcase. Probably just a coincidence.
Man, it makes my head hurt to think of cash as just another inventory item that you stick on a forklift to move around....Quote: pacomartinKeep in mind that $6.4 million is a standard size shrink wrapped pallet for the Bureau of Engraving and Printing. It weights 1500 lbs without the packaging.
Quote: DJTeddyBearMan, it makes my head hurt to think of cash as just another inventory item that you stick on a forklift to move around....
That's fairly strange to hear from a fellow poker player...
Quote: P90In what bills, fivers?
Sorry, the BEP changed their website, my post was wrong. The new skids are $32 million in $100 bills and weigh 704 pounds (without packaging).
Still, a major casino like the Venetian would have $32 million on hand. They used to keep that much in the old days at Binion's Horseshoe.
But the regulations only add up to $13.5 million plus all these new variable amounts which I don't know how to calculate.
Highest slot payout
Race and sports book progressives
Table and card games progressive
Other progressives
Contest / tournament payout liability
Miscellaneous promotions
Regulation 22.040 liability
Periodic payment liabilities
Total variable amounts requirement
Anyway, I have to believe that there is way more than $13.5 million in chips at the Venetian Palazzo. I assume that they carry more cash than the regulation.
Tropicana revealed how much they carried in their quarterly report, and it was much more than the regulation.
But I stand by my statement that the regulations never say that a casinos needs a cash $1 to cover each $1 in chips.
in Vegas as one big BR? People constantly move between
casinos, losing money here and winning money there.
The guy who won $3mil at the Nugget in 2004(?) and
then lost it all at a Strip casino, just kept the $3mil in the
same giant BR, Vegas wasn't hurt. Although the loss
at the Nugget almost bankrupted them and they had to sell
a short time later.
Which brings back up my question from page 1: Why should they be required to? If they aren't, why do people think they are or should be required to?Quote: pacomartinBut I stand by my statement that the regulations never say that a casinos needs a cash $1 to cover each $1 in chips.
Only to the extent that all of the players can be considered as having one big, combined bankroll, I think.Quote: EvenBobIs it fair to say we can look at the BR of all the casinos in Vegas as one big BR?
An "average casino" on the strip meets the $132,000,000 threshold. There are 23 casinos on the strip with revenues over $72M. On average, in an average casino, you would have 1,406 slots <$1, 147 $1 slots, and 40 slots over a $1. Cash requirements for each machine is $1,000, 1,800, and $5,000 respectively.
So, for an average casino, that's an $1,870,600 cash requirement for all slots machine.
Then, you must keep 30K for each 21 and Roulette game, with an average of 58.5 per casino, and $60K per craps table (7.2 / casino), 100K per bacarrat game (11.8/casino), and $10K for each other table game (25.2 / casino). So, for an average casino add another 3,619,000 bankroll requirement.
Add $57,500 for a combined race book, parimutuel, and sportspool. Add in the maximum payout for Keno (say $250K) and your maximum payout for Bingo (say $100K). So your total per gaming machine requirement is 50% of the total of all your games or 2,948,550 for an average casino, but you must have double that (5,897,100) for your next day requirement.
So, for an average STRIP casino, the minimum "on hand" requirement is 4,268,550.
The Next day "on hand" requirement also includes the variable amounts:
1. Highest slot payout - the highest slot payout indicated on a jackpot meter that you're responsible for, say $1,000,000.
2. Highest race/sports book progressives - any contest or progressive payments - say, $500,000.
3. Table and card game progressive - any progressive on a jackpot meter, say $100,000.
4. Other progressives.
5. Contest/tourament payout liability. You must have the cash on hand for any money taken in for all future tournaments. That might be $1,000,000 if you have a slot or blackjack tournament.
6. Miscellaneous promotions. You must have cash on hand to cover free giveaways and contests.
7. Regulation 22.040 liability - this relates to all of the cash that is in your sports book that has been bet. This is covered usually by a bond. You must have cash on hand to cover this. I'm thinking about a $1,000,000.
8. Periodic payment liabilities - you must have enough cash to cover the annual payments for periodic payouts (such as an annuity to a slot winner receiving periodic payments), plus you must have enough here to cover ALL of the the following:
“Reserve” means a restricted account consisting of approved funding sources used exclusively to satisfy periodic payments of prizes arising from all gaming or promotional activity conducted in Nevada, and includes any existing funding methods previously approved by the board or commission. The reserve shall not be less than the sum of the following:
(1) The present value of the aggregate remaining balances owed on all prizes awarded to patrons who are receiving periodic payments. For balances previously funded using U.S. Treasury securities, the discount rate on the date of funding shall be used for calculating the present value of the reserve.
(2) An amount sufficient to pay the single cash payments offered in conjunction with qualified prize options for prizes previously awarded for which elections have not been made by the patrons;
(3) An amount sufficient to fully fund the present value of all prizes currently on public display for which periodic payments are offered;
(4) If cash is used as the approved funding source, an amount equal to satisfy the current liabilities to all patrons receiving periodic payments due and payable within 12 months; and
(5) Any additional amounts administratively required by the chairman.
Let's say a $1,000,000.
So, the total next day requirement would be about 4.6 million for a total of $11,827,100 dollars required.
The on hand requirement must be in your cage and on the casino floor (not in machines or on tables, but could be in payout machines). The next day requirement could be in your bank.
NOTE that the table games requirement is actually quite low at $30K per blackjack and roulette game, $60 for Craps, $100K per bacarrat table, and $10,000 for each other game.
Quote: MathExtremistWait, when did this happen? It was open mid-January when I was there.
Quote: By Cy Ryan; Las Vegas Sun; Jul 2, 2010Struggling Reno casino comes up with cash to avoid closure
Reno casino given final chance to remain open (7-2-2010)
CARSON CITY — The struggling Siena Hotel Spa Casino in downtown Reno has cleared the first hurdle to remain open, at least through the busy July 4th holiday weekend. Dennis Neilander, chairman of the Nevada Gaming Control Board, said the resort posted a $230,000 bankroll by a 5 p.m. Friday deadline. The Nevada Gaming Commission voted on Thursday to suspend gambling at the Siena unless it came up with the cash to pay out winning players by that time. “Agents have found they (the Siena) have excess cash in the cage,” said Neilander. “They’re good for the weekend.” The board monitors the Siena daily to make sure it maintains an adequate bankroll. If it doesn’t, the plug will be pulled on its 275 slot machines. The casino previously closed down its table gaming. For the last six days in June, the casino was unable to meet the bankroll requirements. It was called before the gaming commission in an emergency meeting to suspend its gambling license, but a last-minute compromise was worked out. The property, formerly called the Holiday Hotel, has had a gambling license since the mid 1950s. Siena officials told the commission Thursday it was negotiating with the nearby Cal-Neva Club to put up the money for its bankroll. Artwork in the Siena would be used as collateral.
Neilander said he did not know where the $230,000 came from.
The commission also ordered the Siena to pay its back gaming taxes estimated at about $150,000 by July 22. On that date, the commission will meet again and wants the hotel-casino to present a plan on how it intends to survive. It must also disclose all of its outstanding debts.
In addition, the Siena must make a $50,000 payment next Friday to Sierra Pacific Power Co. to keep the electricity on. It was $400,000 in arrears to Sierra Pacific but worked out a payment plan.
It paid $60,000 in delinquent room tax but still owes about $150,000 to the local convention authority.
Siena officials say they have been negotiating with the Cal-Neva to take over management of the casino. If that falls through, other management companies have expressed interest in running the club.
Owner Barney Ng said he has put in $35 million to keep the property open but doesn’t want to invest any more money.
Quote: DocWhich brings back up my question from page 1: Why should they be required to? If they aren't, why do people think they are or should be required to?
In California casinos the gaming licensee must have proof of a separate account with funds sufficient to cover all chips in play at any time. So it is not unprecedented, but Nevada does not make that requirement.
