Why I love Pai Gow.....

I'm not taking about what is legal or not, or that casinos may spend for security as part of their business operating expenses, or that you feel that a reasonable and required house edge is inherently "unfair" - Do you expect them to pay for this all for free, without any house edge to cover expenses for services....would YOU or ANYONE operate a business for free? Hmmm.....Let me see.....WongBo's Free Kitchen and Restaurant...come and feed your whole family for FREE...and on my tab....as it would be so unfair of me for my business to charge a cover charge in any way, shape, or form - now wouldn't it? Yet this is what people openly expect from casino business while not from other businesses, and are outraged that that is the reason why the house edge exists in the first place, to make the business simply possible to offer in the first place!

Instead, what we are talking about here is people's behavior and their views, and how they justify an "anything I can get away with is GOOD"

versus

"my personal standards indicate that I play by the rules, and accept the true result of the cards or dice, just as I would expect and demand that the casino would if it were the other way around."

Quote: WongBo

I just said the casino has a predatory attitude.

Of course they are. We have a whole thread going about
this and Dan is the casino defender. I agree 100% with
the rest of your post, good job.

offering games with a reasonable house edge...
what would you consider reasonable?
there are craps bets hovering close to 17%...
keno?
fair?

Taking the mispay... maybe questionable

Watching the floor push drinks on a guy until he is betting bigger than he should and hits negative variance... questionable too.

Wait until a counter is down to ask them to color up... questionable.

Maybe I tell the dealer he set his hand wrong, maybe I don't. The gentleman pounding beers is doing so by his own free will. Maybe the house didn't realize he was counting until he happened to be down. Who knows. I do have trouble finding sympathy for the casino though, they do a lot of things that raise ethical questions every day.

Quote: Paigowdan

With a very few exceptions, almost all house ways keep two low pairs (6's and less) together under all conditions, even if it avoids playing a hand better as a straight or a flush. Of course it is better to split two low pairs with a queen or less top, and it is also sometimes better to play a straight or a flush, but the common "Two Pair Rule" of the standard LV house way indicates:
1. Always play as a two-pair hand whenever two pairs are present, and;
2. Always keep those two pairs together if the two pairs are low pairs (6's and less.)
While there are many exceptions to this basic rules, the basic rule is fairly sound, and the better exceptions would complicate the house way, slow the game down, induce dealer errors, and cause some player annoyance.

As a result, The two pair rule is the most common and overriding basic rule in house way settings, along with playing the 2nd and 3rd cards up in a Pai Gow hand instead of protecting certain Pai Gow hands.

I have only seen keeping low/low together in all circumstances in Vegas and at Casino Queen in East St. Louis.

Quote: Paigowdan

or that you feel that a reasonable and required house edge is inherently "unfair"

You haven't replied to the symmetry issue raised previously. Which is very relevant to this debate.

If a player is morally obligated to notify the dealer when he notices the dealer has set his hand wrong, does a symmetrical obligation not extend to the dealer when a player makes the same kind of blunder?

Should the dealer not correct fouled hands by setting them house way instead?
Offer to do it when both the low and the high hands would be improved?

" "my personal standards indicate that I play by the rules, and accept the true result of the cards or dice, just as I would expect and demand that the casino would if it were the other way around." "

How about demanding the casino not 86 me when I play BJ by all the written rules provided me. How about that DAN ????

Quote: buzzpaff

How about demanding the casino not 86 me when I play BJ by all the written rules provided me. How about that DAN ????

It all sounds so silly when you put it that way. Its
like a cop pulling you over when you're obeying
all the rules perfectly, and gives you a ticket for
breaking one of the unwritten rules, and on the
ticket he doesn't even tell you what the rule was.
He tells you 'don't play ignorant, you know what
you did.'

Thats just what the casinos do. Silliness personified.

Quote: buzzpaff

" "my personal standards indicate that I play by the rules, and accept the true result of the cards or dice, just as I would expect and demand that the casino would if it were the other way around." "

How about demanding the casino not 86 me when I play BJ by all the written rules provided me. How about that DAN ????

How about you accepting that:
The already known and stated rules forbid card counting, and that it is subject to:
1. flat-betting,
2. back-offs, and
3. 86-ing
-like you don't already know this, and for some reason need a copy of the casinos' internal reports,

- and that if you have a problem with this, you may stay out of gambling halls and casinos, as you can take your kids to the water park for some good clean fun.

I really don't have to explain how it works, - as you guys already know.

Don't like it, don't play, but don't act like you don't know, or need me to explain it, or procure internal documents on card counting for you, 'cuz that ain't going to happen, like you need it to know the situation.

" The already known and stated rules forbid card counting, and that it is subject to" And I find those known and stated rules where, besides in the minds of
greedy owners ???????

What are you going to do, really?

Walk into a casino, and demand to speak to the Director of Table Games?
And then demand that he show you all his internal business policy documents because you say so?

Well, if you want, give it a try, and see where it gets you.

Of you can call your lawyer, and ask what he can produce under the Freedom of Information Act...

Oh internal business policy statements. My error, I though you were talking about playing by the rules. Is the Wiz a cheater too, I know he counts .

Quote: buzzpaff

Oh internal business policy statements. My error, I though you were talking about playing by the rules. Is the Wiz a cheater too, I know he counts .

I know for a fact that Mike and I do not see eye-to-eye on these issues, but what does that matter? I probably disagree with him on which games do or do nat have this or that particular merit, etc...
If you want to believe that you are denied "playing by the rules" because they back off or 86 card counters, then by all means believe that.
Perhaps you can pop by the casino, and demand to see your copy of the Card Counters Bill of Rights.

If you want to believe that you are denied "playing by the rules" because they back off or 86 card counters, then by all means believe that.

That is exactly the point DAN. I do play by the rules. You or Face can show me to the door anytime. Just don't accuse me of cheating !
I consider cheaters to be low life scum. I do not cheat, I tip probably too much, and like nothing more than telling a sore loser what a jerk he is.
Because the dealer can not !!
"

Buzz,
This is how it works:

If you get:
1. backed off, or
2. 86-ed, or
3. Flat-betted

Then:
This was done because you were not playing by the casino's rules to their satisfaction, and they were letting you know this fact.
Otherwise, this would not have been done to you.

Paigowdan finally takes an ethical position that makes sense- when the dealer makes an error and overpays you owe the money back- but then reverts to the "optimal play=unethical" bullshit again.

Quote: buzzpaff

You or Face can show me to the door anytime.

Leave me out of this. My hounds picked up the scent of surgical rubber and I'm hot on SOOPOO's heels. That $25 is as good as MINE! ;)

That would be $23.75. But I digress...

Back about 4-5 pages ago Dan made a good point, that essentially the Dealer gets reprimanded. The House got "Fined" for paying out a hand that was probably a winner, much more than loser (Str/A*). If I follow "smart casino" correctly, the reprimand comes about looking at tape, tape reveals Customers, time interface determines comp-account(s) active at that table at that time.

Dumb casino doesn't know about the mistake, nor reprimanded the employee.

If either one is true, I would keep a low profile, and check the comps after the incident.... quietly.

Quote: FinsRule

I just disagree that I have a moral obligation to stop the game if I happen to notice that a dealer mis-applies the 2 pair rule in Pai Gow Poker.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. You have ZERO obligation to do so. In MY opinion. But it isn't your money and you have to accept that. Does it make you a bad person? I don't think so. But is it your money? Nope. End of story.

Quote: Face

Leave me out of this. My hounds picked up the scent of surgical rubber and I'm hot on SOOPOO's heels. That $25 is as good as MINE! ;)

You'll never catch me..... And I would think you wouldn't want to. I have introduced so many non gamblers to pai gow poker, who now play it periodically, that whatever trivial amount I may take from the casino should be looked upon as a 'finder's fee'. I have now successfully converted one of our nurse's to tiles, and we will be going this Saturday to Fallsview to see if variance will be on our side.