Why I love Pai Gow.....

Seneca Niagara yesterday with my buddy. I have $25 match play up... 10 10 8 8 A K x.... Our house way is AK up... I play 8 8 up.... dealer gets 9's and 6's so I win... Later.... I have trips with AQ, my buddy trips with A 10..... I announce to our very friendly table and very friendly dealer that he will be having an A J up top, as my friend has been getting that kind of luck... Dealer turns over 7 8 9 10 joker A J, and says... wow, you were right!! Of course he had a natural straight with aces up, never noticed, and it helped me and 2 others at the table turn losses into pushes. I would never encourage a dealer to misset his hand, and since my AJ comment was before he turned over his cards, it fell within my ethical boundaries. Of course I hearde Dan scolding me from afar... One other clear loss that the dealer left my money up there... And one other play where I knew all the aces were out and changed my strategy... turned the day into a small win from a small loss... It's why I play....

PGP is also my favorite game. I find it very relaxing to play and enjoy the socializing with the other players since nothing any other player does affects your outcome.
My last visit to Seneca Niagara, I got killed on it. I grew up in the Falls and occasionaly visit.
Oh well, 3 more weeks and I will be in Biloxi with a large choice of places to play.

Soopoo, you're a cheater who probably should be arrested.

Love,
Dan

Quote: SOOPOO

And one other play where I knew all the aces were out and changed my strategy... turned the day into a small win from a small loss... It's why I play....

Now someone's going to have to do a card counting study on Pai Gow Poker...

Enjoy your nefariously gotten gains, you shot-taking service-stealing counter!

Thanks, P90. I sensed the pit boss was overall very happy with our table. The super morbidly obese gentleman to my left was betting an average of $200 per hand and made enough mistakes to pay for the loss they take on him when he goes to the buffet. The rocket scientist to my buddy's right on consecutive hands made these plays.... 'backed up' his king with a jack and played 9 7 up top rather than J 9 up top.... and it cost him as the dealer had aces and a 10 8 up top! And the next hand he is dealt a straight flush with a 7 5 up top, but opted to play it 5's with an A 7... and of course he lost rather than taking the sure push. I can't imagine what the house edge on that guy was....

Quote: FinsRule

Soopoo, you're a cheater who probably should be arrested.

Love,
Dan

Here's the actual Dan,
and here's what FinsRule should actually quote to be truthful about himself, if he does this here or at any forum:
Finsrule: I'm a jerk who loves to fabricate and post false quotes attributed others at forums, because that's the kind of person I am.

He's my real quote on that casino situation;
1. You're not obligated to do anyone else's job for them.
2. But, you knowingly and willingly took money that you knew you didn't win by the correct play of the cards, and you post this about yourself at a public gamblers' forum. Brilliant display. That simple. You also know you could have done something about it, but choose instead to take cash you didn't rightfully win, proudly posting and boasting to the world the stuff that you are made of.
3. You could care less if a newbie or trainee or tired dealer gets written up or fired, because it is not your ass or job on the line, so you couldn't give a sh]t about that - when it is not you, of course. Add that to the mix.

So here's SooPoo's real quote;
"I knowingly take money I didn't rightfully win, and I take NO steps to correct it when it's in MY favor, so I can take the cash and make a stash! And I get applause from most people" (which I would indeed expect. Do you see why dealers and floormen may think what they think of gamblers, seeing this all the time in these people? And this view gets validated when reading gamblers forums, to boot! Wow...)

yes, people, do enjoy ill gotten gains!
And, of course, show the world what you're really made of!

As for the super-obese gentleman misplaying his hands, this doesn't justify errors, as he could have asked the dealer or other players for the correct setting (and perhaps would have been better off asking the floorman instead in his case), because the house is obligated to give the very same house way recommendation to the player that the house would use.

Now, here's a $64 question for Soopoo: if a floorman came over and said "Surveillance called, and said you were overpaid because of a misplayed push, and you have to return $25 (or whatever amount),
would you say,
1. "you're right sir, fine, here it is" - and return it, knowing full well the correct play,
or would you yap,
2. "Finders keepers, loser weepers, the money's mine, ALL mine, na-HA to you!" and try really hard to still get away with it, once the truth is pointed out.

Quote: Paigowdan

but choose instead to take cash you didn't rightfully win, proudly posting and boasting to the world the stuff that you are made of.
3. You could care less if a newbie or trainee or tired dealer gets written up or fired, because it is not your ass or job on the line, so you couldn't give a sh]t about that -

So here's SooPoo's real quote;
"I knowingly take money I didn't rightfully win, and I take NO steps to correct it when it's in MY favor, so I can take the cash and make a stash! And I get applause from most people" (which I would indeed expect.)
And, of course, show the world what you're really made of!

This is too easy, Dan.. you are such an easy mark... NO ONE gets fired for the mistake I'm talking about and you KNOW it. No one is 'being written up'... BUT if I MAKE IT KNOWN to his pit boss.... then maybe he does get written up... And if it is a dealer who consistently makes those mistakes at too high a frequency... then I'm doing the casino a favor... and perhaps that dealer should be in a different line of work.

I did rightfully win the money. If I didn't the casino wouldn't give it to me......

Yes- I showed the world what I am made of... The rare player who can beat a casino at a game they think can't be beat, never being challenged, never backed off, always having a good time, always willing to accept a loss if it occurs, always willing to help a less experienced player at the table... I showed the world exactly what I'm made of.

You of course, Mr. Curmudgeon, show 'what you are made of' every time you make one of your silly "he's a criminal" posts. We all know EXACTLY who you are, and as usual, you are alone in your thoughts.... But keep posting... your poorly designed posts are such easy targets....

Quote: SOOPOO

This is too easy, Dan.. you are such an easy mark... NO ONE gets fired for the mistake I'm talking about and you KNOW it.

Yes they do. I've seen it as part of a termination process on a new dealer. But sometimes a casino pit boss is looking for cutbacks and excuses and personal vendettas, though. You have said that:

Quote: Soopoo

"No one is 'being written up'... BUT if I MAKE IT KNOWN to his pit boss.... then maybe he does get written up...

No. If you make it known to the pit boss, the dealer gets no 'gig' and may be assign BJ or extra training or another game until he/she is up to speed, thereby saving the dealer instead. There is no "gig" on a corrected hand, only an uncorrected hand that gets through. SooPoo, I know you didn't know this, and not accusing that you did know this but this is how it works. (how could you know, not being a pit worker, true), but do be aware of that.

Quote: Soopoo

And if it is a dealer who consistently makes those mistakes at too high a frequency... then I'm doing the casino a favor... and perhaps that dealer should be in a different line of work.

Yes. But the casino should know before the uncorrected or 'tainted' plays goes out, and you stood by in silence, but as per your prerogative. It is not a crime to help the evil casino, it is a courtesy that you may do. Gamblers only do this if personal gain is involved, though, and the suggestion that it can be to seek "all correct plays' is abhorrence to many gamblers by nature...

Quote: SooPoo

I did rightfully win the money. If I didn't the casino wouldn't give it to me......

No, This is like saying, "The bank made a clerical error for $5,000 in my favor, and I kept my mouth shut, thereby rightfully acquiring that money...." Same thinking. If you can't see this POV, then fine, too, NHOF, just stating how I see it.

Quote: SooPoo

Yes- I showed the world what I am made of... The rare player who can beat a casino at a game they think can't be beat, never being challenged, never backed off, always having a good time, always willing to accept a loss if it occurs, always willing to help a less experienced player at the table... I showed the world exactly what I'm made of.

Yes, of course, very fine. You may be a great guy.
but if you have to beat the casino my any sort of errors OR rule breaking, etc, are you really beating the casino, or just exploiting human errors?

Quote: SooPoo

You of course, Mr. Curmudgeon, show 'what you are made of' every time you make one of your silly "he's a criminal" posts. We all know EXACTLY who you are, and as usual, you are alone in your thoughts.... But keep posting... your poorly designed posts are such easy targets....

No. I always make these "legal' versus "behavioral" distinctions, - as questionable behavior may be totally legal; indeed, it often is.
I've never said it is a legal or criminal court matter when it is not, and I DO make the distinctions between abject criminal behaviors, and those of lesser, non-criminal - but still questionable or "remarkable" attributes.
If you feel my posts are targets, do hack away, and of course, enjoy! We are here to debate, discuss, poke each other, express points of view, etc. no problem

Quote: Paigowdan

You also know you could have done something about it, but choose instead to take cash you didn't rightfully win, proudly posting and boasting to the world the stuff that you are made of.

Hmmm, lets weigh the sins of the casino against
the sins of the players. If the casinos commit no
more sins from this day forward, in about 300
years they'll be even with the players. Give or
take a decade or two..

Quote: EvenBob

Hmmm, lets weigh the sins of the casino against
the sins of the players. If the casinos commit no
more sins from this day forward, in about 300
years they'll be even with the players. Give or
take a decade or two..

No. let's just seek to practice "not sinning while knowing what we are doing."
Accusing the others of sins to justify your own sins is an obvious non-starter to many.
"oh, don't look at ME! - look over there...."

An old adage seems a-pro-po:
"When you point a finger at someone else, there are three of your other fingers pointing back at you."

it's the three fingers pointing back at us that should make us say "It's wrong to try to take money we really didn't earn fair and square, so I don't want it and I don't boast in it - even, and especially from, a gambling hall or a casino."

This is different than "making the RIGHT bet - and being happy with that."

I see both sides of this argument...

If the dealer doesn't know any better than to set the hand as he did, the pit doesn't notice, the eye doesn 't notice then why should the player feel obliged to inform them?
If they don't follow their own house way, it is not my position or obligation to inform them. The dealer set the hand in a valid way, though not the house way and not the best setting.
When I set my hand in a way that is less than optimal I don't get the benefit of a do-over. In fact, I fouled a hand in my first time playing and was not forgiven.
It was at a $5 table so I wasn't that upset but I think it is greedy and obnoxious on the part of the casino. If they want to play hard with me I will play hard with them.
They have the opportunity to review the tape and ask for their money back, and yes I would probably want to see the tape.
I think most people would not speak up to correct the house as it would likely cause other people to lose and would make them an outcast at the table.
This does not mean they have a moral shortcoming as paigowdan suggests, it is just human nature.
It is sort of ironic to hear a casino professional lecture about morality in the first place.
The entire industry is based on human weakness and
Amounts to nothing more than a regressive tax on ignorance.
They spend millions to protect their ability to run games which have a negative expectation. If they can't maintain that negative expectation
because they are too cheap to hire intelligent personnel, or to review the tapes than too bad for them. I wish soopoo had been playing for black chips.

Quote: Paigowdan

No. let's just seek to practice "not sinning while knowing what we are doing."

OK, the casinos can go first and we'll follow. Like
thats ever going to happen.

Quote: WongBo

I see both sides of this argument...
Paigowdan can always be counted on to take the side of the corporate behemoth casino and try to disguise it as the moral high road if he wants.

My point it is not that "the casino is the moral high road," (it is simply a business)
but it is us as gamblers who should be the moral high road, and we are not even up to the moral standards of a freaking casino business as gamblers. Not by a long shot in many cases. This is a crying shame.
Claiming, "oh, the casino is really the evil Darth Vader dark side, so we can pull whatever despicable crap we want to and justify it that way..." is a load BS.

Gamblers are so frequently morally bankrupt that they have to actually be advised and detained by casinos at times, and explained the facts of gambling life by a casino floorman and security guard, - with these transgressions being defended and resented instead of gotten rid of, which is also a shame.

So THAT worries me...but only me here, apparently.....

To have a casino worker point out how we gamblers really act and behave in a casino, and how we are really seen in what we're doing when in a casino, is reasonable. Who ELSE could see this and examine this?
Would a corporate marketing guy, or a real estate agent, see and study how gamblers act and behave in a casino?......shoot, we announce and depict how we behave and why, right here....

Quote: EvenBob

OK, the casinos can go first and we'll follow. Like
thats ever going to happen.

Like that needs to happen.
Again, your very fine and noble actions don't depend on any one else going first; now should they?

Quote: Paigowdan

If you feel my posts are targets, do hack away, and of course, enjoy! We are here to debate, discuss, poke each other, express points of view, etc. no problem

I appreciate you taking the high ground in this debate. I owe you a beer when I come to Vegas. And apologize for the curmudgeon comment.

Quote: SOOPOO

I appreciate you taking the high ground in this debate. I owe you a beer when I come to Vegas. And apologize for the curmudgeon comment.

No problem! Would love this. Do indeed PM me, we'll throw some dice, break bread at Battista's Italian restaurant on Flamingo, etc...

Quote: WongBo

It is sort of ironic to hear a casino professional lecture about morality in the first place.
The entire industry is based on human weakness and Amounts to nothing more than a regressive tax on ignorance.

Very well said. And keeping the players ignorant is
a major part of the operation. Look how they've
gotten so many people hooked on penny slots in
the last few years. Penny slots make up more than 50%
of the slots in most casinos now. People love all the
whistles and bells and complicated games, and hey,
its pennies, what a great deal. Worst payout of any
slot, yet you won't find an empty seat at one in any
casino after 5pm.

Quote: WongBo

They spend millions to protect their ability to run games which have a negative expectation. If they can't maintain that negative expectation because they are too cheap to hire intelligent personnel, or to review the tapes than too bad for them. I wish soopoo had been playing for black chips.

They take a dumbass dealer, put a suit on him, and
expect an executive to be born. They pay surveillance
barely a living wage and expect them to do the work
of highly paid professionals. You get what you pay for.

Quote: Paigowdan

((Most))Gamblers are so frequently morally bankrupt that they have to actually be advised and detained by casinos at times, and explained the facts of gambling life by a casino floorman and security guard, - with these transgressions being defended and resented instead of gotten rid of, which is also a shame.

Edited for accuracy. And I agree with Dan here. Most people who step into a casino are usually unaware of the totality of the environment they are playing in.

Quote:

So THAT worries me...but only me here, apparently.....

That makes two of us.

Quote:

To have a casino worker point out how we gamblers really act and behave in a casino, and how we are really seen in what we're doing when in a casino, is reasonable. Who ELSE could see this and examine this?

I think what this comes down to again....is people are greedy, self centered, and think themselves morally higher than the evil casino taking away the money of the poor alcoholic who can't control his betting when he drinks *eyeroll*

I also apologize for characterizing your position, I removed it from my post but you quoted me before I took it out!
I do see your side of this and agree that we should be honest.
I am just pointing out that most players are more likely to keep quiet so as not to affect others play,
And because the casinos are perceived as greedy when the shoe is on the other foot.
Specifically, fouled and improperly set player hands

Quote: Paigowdan

My point it is not that "the casino is the moral high road," (it is simply a business)

Thats what the Mafia said about Vegas when they
ran it, its just business. They don't run Vegas anymore,
but the attitude they had is still alive and well and
thrives in the boardrooms and pits of every casino.

Dan, I'm worried about you. You get so worked up over little things. I mean, you work in a casino all day, then you get all angry after I make a little joke and you go on a rant.

It's all for fun, relax.

And just own it if you're going to say it. You've said people that knowingly take money that isn't theirs at a casino (such as a mispay) are cheaters and breaking Nevada law. So, just own what you say.

I respect your right to have an opinion, I just disagree that I have a moral obligation to stop the game if I happen to notice that a dealer mis-applies the 2 pair rule in Pai Gow Poker. I guess I should just close my eyes when the dealer turns over his cards. Or do I have a moral obligation to keep them open to make sure... Please don't answer, it's rhetorical.

Love,
FinsRule

The rule is only in how the House is to set their hand, not in the rules of the game itself.

Where's the foul if the house makes a bad play, if the player can make a bad play as well? Note this is a bad play rather than breaking the rules of the game (7 cards, split lo and hi, etc).

(It's in the fact it's not a "Game" at all, and the casino has a mechanical method to operate the table. If this was a game and gaming, I'd say nobody did anything wrong here).

It is all fun, and I enjoy it.
People imaging that I am red in the face, with blood pressure 260/160 or something.
I'm actually very relaxed, mostly laughing and loving a lot of this, (at times honestly thinking "Wow....some of these gamblers would rob their grandmothers and boast..." - and I have seen this in a casino, with others - 'He's a Saint!") - and enjoying it all with a cup of coffee, really, blood pressure 120/80.

And again, do not misquote me.
Taking money that isn't yours via dealer error is not cheating or against the law, I didn't say that, so don't say I did, again. Other things - yes, many things are 86-able, or reason for back offs, and justifiably so even if you disagree or don't see it.
Many things are on a relative scale of indecency far below criminal court proceedings.
I said that many things that are ethically questionable or morally bankrupt are perfectly legal, but still morally bankrupt and ethically questionable, and sadly typical of a lot of gamblers' open views and practices.

Quote: Finsrule

I guess I should just close my eyes when the dealer turns over his cards.

No. You should keep your eyes open.
And if you say something when the error is against you (usually outrage, anger, and accusation over an innocent error from a tired dealer), you could also say something when the error is the other way, like "You know, I honestly didn't win the money and I don't want it that way, so here it is back..."
If you don't feel you have a moral obligation for this small step to be taken, then forgive me for not viewing you or seeing you as a totally moral person, and that's all right. I view 100% of the people on earth including myself at less than (<) 100% moral by virtue of being sent here. Some are in high school, some are in college, and some in pre-school, and some are not growing on a relative moral scale, and don't care to and resist it like all hell in practice and debate. I mean, really, how hard is it to say, "you overpaid me by mistake, here it is back" or "that hand is simply set wrong" on a GAME basis - and not a personal greed basis?

Apparently VERY hard. And I read this and enjoy it and debate it; I'm sure all of you have a mind's-eye view of me being all apoplectic and shit.

Others assume I'm hanging around with a bunch of other dealers drinking beer, and saying with them while reading this site, "Wow!...do you BELIEVE this shit, - the views of these daffy, bankrupt gamblers??!! This is funnier than the Riviera's Comedy Club!...."

Neither one of these views is correct or true in any way.

The fact of the matter is I find the debate here and all POV's interesting, I have absolutely no resentment or anger or ridicule for anyone, and accept that people are just people, and enjoy debating with them. Sometimes I do say to myself, "wow...that one's just out there" - and just as many of you find me. And It goes no further than that, this is our area, our debating boxing ring, and I respect it as that. I don't share this outside of this area with other people, I talk about and do other things outside of this area when outside this area. It's all good, no harm, no foul. (NHOF)

For as long as the casinos continue to collect on fouled hands by inexperienced or inebriated players,
Players will collect on hands improperly set by the dealer, inexperienced, inebriated or other.
And there is no way you can say that either is right or justified any more than you can claim ether is moral or immoral.

Quote: Paigowdan

Neither one of these views is correct or true in any way.

But its certainly true for most dealers. Read the dealer
forums, they talk about players like they're low grade
morons, calling them names and making fun of them.
Dealers think we're there to lose as much as possible,
keep our mouths shut, and tip after every hand, in that order.
While I'm thinking 'who in his right mind would work in
this environment on purpose', the casino employees
are thinking, 'boy these people are chumps, don't they
know every game is set for them to lose?'

No fear, I've gleaned a pic of SOOPOO from the "McNugget Challenge", faxed it on up to the boys in the Falls, and they'll be able to pull up his personal info and get his address in no time flat. They should be knocking on his door right....about....

J/K of course ;) Glad you had a good time, hope to see you back =)

Quote: Face

No fear, I've gleaned a pic of SOOPOO from the "McNugget Challenge", faxed it on up to the boys in the Falls, and they'll be able to pull up his personal info and get his address in no time flat. They should be knocking on his door right....about....



J/K of course ;) Glad you had a good time, hope to see you back =)

Now face... what do you mean by..... oops... gotta go.... suits at the door... shouting its the FBI!!! see you in 10 or 20 ..... years....

Quote: Paigowdan

I mean, really, how hard is it to say, "that hand is simply set wrong" on a GAME basis - and not a personal greed basis?

I mean, indeed?
And as the designer of Pai Gow Poker, well, one of the variants anyway, you are exactly the person to ask this.

How hard is it for the dealer, when a player fouls his hand, to say "that hand is simply set wrong" and just set it the house way?
How hard is it, when a player sets his hand in a way that makes both the low and the high hand worse than the house way, to say, "this hand can be easily made better, would you like me to set it the house way for you"?
On a game basis, not personal favor basis.

edited

Pai Gow is different in that the dealer WILL tell you the house way. And a lot of dealers will tell you the book way on a hit/stand decision. But ultimately, it's your decision how to play your hand. The dealer has no choice. He/she must play a certain way and if they don't, then they aren't following the house rules and as Dan said, are subject to discipline.

When I'm at a table by myself, it's very easy to make sure the dealer sets correctly. i don't want their money if i didn't deserve it and I don't want them taking mine. If it might affect others, it's a slight issue. But if the dealer has been good to me (friendly, fun to play with), i'll find a way to say something most of the time... usually players are calling out what the dealer's hand should be before they set it... dealer mis-sets are rare.

I gotta go with SOOPOO on this one.

The dealer did not set his hand in the house way and it's the house's job to fix it. If the player gets a rare bonus because of it so be it. I've seen this happen a total of about 2 -3 times in all of my Pai Gow dealings... a testament to the dealers. When I'm at the table alone, I'll point out a dealer error no matter what direction it's going.

I've played many a long session at Pai Gow. I've been forgiven a total of once for fouling my hand, but I have not been forgiven for obviously setting my hand incorrectly. For example, I would put up a K-8 instead of a K-Q because I failed to see the Q in my pair of 9s. It's an obvious error that I'm not forgiven for should I lose and there's no logical reason why I would play the hand that way. It's my mistake, and i've lost a few times that way. In the case of PGP, the casino doesn't fix my mistakes, and I don't fix their's.

As for fixing a hand differently because all the aces are out, it's wrong to look at player's cards, but we do it anyway until we're told not to. My wife and I frequently play together and sometimes we'd play 2 hands (especially at the Peppermill where the $5 PGP tables are there all day and night, all week long) for a total of 4 of the six spots, and yep, in about 1 in every 100 hands, my strategy would change based on knowing where all the aces were -- you change your two pair strategy. The Peppermill wasn't sweating it though we were making it pretty obvious. Other places do, and we'll be told by the pit to look at our own cards, or they'll slap down a plastic thingy on one of the hands and make it play house way.

Quote: boymimbo

I gotta go with SOOPOO on this one.

The dealer did not set his hand in the house way and it's the house's job to fix it. If the player gets a rare bonus because of it so be it. When I'm at the table alone, I'll point out a dealer error no matter what direction it's going.

In the case of PGP, the casino doesn't fix my mistakes, and I don't fix their's.

So which is it? it seems like you are saying both things at the same time.....

Quote: WongBo

For as long as the casinos continue to collect on fouled hands by inexperienced or inebriated players,
Players will collect on hands improperly set by the dealer, inexperienced, inebriated or other.
And there is no way you can say that either is right or justified any more than you can claim ether is moral or immoral.

Yes, you can indeed.
That is, - if you participate in this crap and then justify it by saying, "oh - it exists and happens, - so it must be okay!",
or if you refuse to participate in the slimy action, simply by saying, "the hand was set wrong, fix it," or "You overpaid me by $10, here it is back"
just as you would do so anyway, when the shoe is on the other foot.

If a wrong payout is wrong when it is one way, then it is just as wrong when it is the other way also,
that is, - if personal greed is pushed aside, a really big if for some people.

So easy to justify, so hard to do, when the cash is coming your way instead of away from you, eh?

Another thought on this, the house way differs slightly from place to place and it really isn't up to the player to memorize the house way of each casino.
The dealer is playing to minimize loss and risk. The player is often playing riskier strategy to go for a win instead of a push.
If the dealer sets his hand a certain way, it is not my job or concern other than to compare my hand to his.
If I should happen to see another way he could have set his hand, it could be a variation of an individual house way that prevented that setting.
It is not up to the player to correct a hand which may be set following some obscure variation of house way.
Even if it is obviously inferior to another setting, I feel that the house is on it's own.
It is only a fair response to the fact that the player is not corrected or offered house way for a fouled hand.
This isn't a question of morality or honesty the way it might be at a blackjack table.
This is part of the strategy the house employs against the player.
Basically, if you make a mistake it costs you the hand.
Why should the player be expected to give the house a fairer shake?

Quote: WongBo

Another thought on this, the house way differs slightly from place to place and it really isn't up to the player to memorize the house way of each casino.

No, it isn't. But this doesn't mean that we cannot clearly see a fouled hand or an obvious mis-set. Certainly the hand described: A* J10987 is always best set as A*/J10987 in all cases, and not as AJ/*10987, or for that matter, J10/A*987.

Quote: WongBo

The dealer is playing to minimize loss and risk. The player is often playing riskier strategy to go for a win instead of a push.

Of course. Players should set their hands as finely as possible, and dealers should set their hands accurately to the proper house way. But when this process fails, if a player gives an alert out loud when the call is against him, but deliberately chooses to remain silent and in knowledge to accept the money the other way, everyone knows that they may be witnessing a person whose personal greed overrides his desire for a clean game result, and this has nothing to do with its legal status, but its human ethical status. You will see on dealers' forums this item discusses as "this is how gamblers are," but on gamblers' forums you will see "oh, this is how we justify it - CASH in hand is MINE, all mine..." until the floorman comes over and mentions what the correct play was and that money of 'x' amount should be returned, if it is caught, silence otherwise....

Quote: WongBo

If the dealer sets his hand a certain way, it is not my job or concern other than to compare my hand to his.

Unless the dealer sets his hand in a stronger way than the house way, which I have done by playing more Pai Gow than dealing it. (I deal more craps than Pai Gow Poker). I once set the hand 6544322 as 42/65432 instead of 65/44223 as dealer, as I simply would play for the push instead of the loss from Pai Gow experience. (It is better to play a much stronger straight with no top, than a much weaker two-pair together with the same "no top.") I saw it and re-set it as 65/44223, and had a happy player won her hand with three 7's and a Queen top, and I said "good for you," - as I am happy to set the hand the house way. My point is that if it not your concern other than to compare your hand to the dealer, then there is a reason why you will let the misplay happen one way, and protest a misplay the other way. It is because players are more interested in lining their pockets any way possible, as opposed to being interested in fair and correct game results by the actual play of the cards or dice, which is the casino's job and interest that they carry out so successfully that we actual play at casinos. In this regard, the casino is more ethical than the player, as the casino seeks the real result of the cards or dice, and the player will wish to line is pockets in any fashion, - going so far as to accept money that he know to himself that he did not legitimately win. On dealers' forums, we note that we see this in gamblers, and we also note that on gamblers' forums, every rationalization and justification is used and believed, so as long as it serves personal greed, cold hard cash in hand, and the hell with game integrity when it serves just my greed. Go lurk at a Dealers' forum, and see what is said there. If I am honest about this and share this here, revealing the "secrets of the dark side," your response should be more of interest and curiosity, than of shock and rejection and anger, - that dealers might actually see some of this.

Quote: WongBo

If I should happen to see another way he could have set his hand, it could be a variation of an individual house way that prevented that setting.

Unless of course you know the truth of the matter, and as an actual fact, - but would wish to lie to yourself about this truth in order to take the cash, - saved by a push instead of taking the honest loss like The Man That You Are. Certainly the hand 9877765 is better played as 77/98765, than as 98/77765 in all cases, and by all house ways in every casino on earth, and we all know this if we play the game of Pai Gow Poker.

Quote: WongBo

It is not up to the player to correct a hand which may be set following some obscure variation of house way.

Certainly the hand 9877765 is better played as 77/98765, than as 98/77765 in all cases, and by all house ways in every casino on earth, and we all know this if we play the game of Pai Gow Poker.

Quote: WongBo

Even if it is obviously inferior to another setting, I feel that the house is on it's own.

The house is indeed on its own. We certainly do not count on gamblers doing the right thing, we know this, we must count on ourselves.
I once knew a man whose wife divorced him, because the first thing this man said when he and his wife were confronted by an armed robber in a parking lot was, "Do what you want to the woman, - but leave me alone!" She was on her own. Obviously, they were in a casino's parking lot, and obviously the husband was still in his "gambler's mode...." Yup, we are on own....

Quote: WongBo

It is only a fair response to the fact that the player is not corrected or offered house way for a fouled hand.

True. Which is why my property allows Pai Gow Poker hand resets to the player's advantage, on condition that it was an honest mistake by a learning player, and not a shot-taking exercise by an experienced PGP player trying to get an unfair advantage.

Quote: WongBo

This isn't a question of morality or honesty the way it might be at a blackjack table.

Yes it is, obviously, denial not withstanding.

Quote: WongBo

This is part of the strategy the house employs against the player.
Basically, if you make a mistake it costs you the hand.
Why should the player be expected to give the house a fairer shake?

You see, we do NOT expect a gambler to give the house a fair shake on a game, we honestly expect gamblers to take a lot of shots here and there, and this is based on actual experience with actual gamblers.

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There are several casinos that will keep two low pairs together at all times. I've seen it several places.

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Quote: PlayYourCardsRight

There are several casinos that will keep two low pairs together at all times. I've seen it several places.

With a very few exceptions, almost all house ways keep two low pairs (6's and less) together under all conditions, even if it avoids playing a hand better as a straight or a flush. Of course it is better to split two low pairs with a queen or less top, and it is also sometimes better to play a straight or a flush, but the common "Two Pair Rule" of the standard LV house way indicates:
1. Always play as a two-pair hand whenever two pairs are present, and;
2. Always keep those two pairs together if the two pairs are low pairs (6's and less.)
While there are many exceptions to this basic rules, the basic rule is fairly sound, and the better exceptions would complicate the house way, slow the game down, induce dealer errors, and cause some player annoyance.

As a result, The two pair rule is the most common and overriding basic rule in house way settings, along with playing the 2nd and 3rd cards up in a Pai Gow hand instead of protecting certain Pai Gow hands.

When a hand is fouled and a bet is cleared the casino is acting in it's own behalf without giving the player a fair chance to beat the dealer with the hands given.
The only time I have seen this forgiven is after the pit comes over and notices that it's a weak player hand.
EVERY strong hand I have ever sen fouled was called dead.
Let's not pretend that the casino and it's employeesmhave any morality with which to stake out the high ground.
If a player told the dealer that hand had been misplayed, do you really think the tape would be reviewed to correct the error? Hardly!
setting an inferior hand is a risk the player accepts.
Why do you think the casino shouldn't suffer the same fate?
It is perfectly fair given the policy of fouled hands.

Quote: WongBo

When a hand is fouled and a bet is cleared the casino is acting in it's own behalf without giving the player a fair chance to beat the dealer with the hands given.

One can argue that it is the player who is shooting himself in the foot and is responsible for setting his own poker hand, - not the casino yet you want to blame the casino for THAT, - and certainly no gambler would ever stop a casino from shooting itself in the foot when witnessing the same action.
You can therefore even defend a casino who cheats a player by saying, "Well, that's what a gambler would try to do to the casino ANYWAY, so why can't we!"
This argument doesn't hold up.
As I've said, many casinos forgive a player's fouled hand, and yet it still gets no credit or thanks or acknowledgement from any gambler whenever it gives out this fine consideration to the gamblers.
In this regard, casinos are trained by the gamblers themselves "to enforce and to live their own hand setting methods, just as the house must do so."
Besides, are you really trying to blame the casino for a player missetting is own damn hand? That's BS. If a player hits a 16 against a dealer's 5 in BJ and busts, that counts to, as you would expect. Lord knows if he pulled a 6 to get a 21 hand, he would demand to be paid, and will get paid on his hit to 21 hand.

Quote: WongBo

The only time I have seen this forgiven is after the pit comes over and notices that it's a weak player hand.
EVERY strong hand I have ever sent fouled was called dead.

I haven't, - and we routinely give this consideration to new players without receiving an ounce of gratitude for thanks when we do carry this out for them, I can tell you that. So why should we continue this policy, you can also argue.
If the player is allowed to play better than the cut-and-dry house way, and take additionals wins that way, - then how in the world can you complain that it is also unfair to lose when the player happens to play it worse?
God forbid the player should actually be responsible for properly setting his own poker hands, when he's constantly yapping that the casino should be held accountable for how THEY properly set their hands, too, - unless a player gets overpaid by mistake, then that's never a mistake that should be fixed!

Quote: WongBo

Let's not pretend that the casino and it's employees have any morality with which to stake out the high ground.

We don't pretend that casinos and its employees have any particular high moral ground when casinos follow the rules that they are supposed to follow anyway. It's just a crying shame when gamblers can't even met that simple level of expectation themselves, of playing by the rules on setting their own hands, and they often don't even meet this. This is the real story with many gamblers, apparently.

Quote: Wongbo

If a player told the dealer that hand had been misplayed, do you really think the tape would be reviewed to correct the error? Hardly!

No, it could very well indeed be reviewed, depending on the amount wagered and the circumstances, and if the events warrant it. All that's required is a quick call to surveillance with a request, "What do you have on the play?" This is indeed often done if the floorman feels it's warranted, but he often makes a call right then and there at the table, if it's for a small amount and all parties agree to the resolution. If an agreement on a major incident cannot be reached, I guarantee you surveillance will be called to decide the matter.

Quote: WongBo

Setting an inferior hand is a risk the player accepts.
Why do you think the casino shouldn't suffer the same fate?

Because the player may use ANY legal hand setting he wants, to include getting an advantage, when the house has its hands tied by the house way, THAT's why. If the house is bound to play by the rules to its House Way requirements, then why shouldn't the player be bound to the rules of allowing him to set his hand AS HE SEES IT, AND LIVING BY THAT rule, too.

Quote: WongBo

It is perfectly fair given the policy of fouled hands.

In whose opinion it is fair? It is fair in many players' opinions that they should be allowed to reach into the dealer's rack and just pull out a bunch of black chips if they could, and then redeem them for hundreds of dollars at the cage. God forbid the player should be expected to follow the rules in setting his own hand if the casino house must do so also!

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

I have personally thanked the dealer/pit boss when they allow a newbie to reset a fouled hand. I always reaffirm to them that they are in a competitive business, anfd their actions will breed loyalty.
I think Wong Bo is onto something, not about resetting a poorly set hand, but resetting a foul hand. You can easily see a placard saying "ALL FOUL HANDS WILL BE RESET USING HOUSE WAYS". I think that would be a smart way for the casino to handle foul hands. Generally, a player setting a foul hand will be soon to donate their entire stack of chips to the casino.
The casino cannot reset a poorly set hand, because it is possible that the 'misset' might work out better, just like Dan mentioned a player hitting a 20 might draw an ace. My friend, a newbie, misset a jack high pai gow by putting the 10 in the high hand, and it caused him to push against the dealer's better jack high pai gow!

i think most players are appreciative of getting forgiveness on a fouled hand when it happens.
i also think most of them think the rule is unfair in the first place.
i think this is one of the reasons players are less likely to report dealer error at this particular game.
it would not significantly affect the house to reset fouled hands according to house way.
their refusal to do so is clearly an unfair advantage move.
casino insiders can decry gambler dishonesty all they want.
when the odds are so strongly in favor of the casino to begin with,
it is just plain immoral for them to prey on novices and error prone players.
if casino insiders want to characterize all gamblers with one broad stroke, that just reeks of ignorance.
the fact is that the casino is predatory and they deserve to be hit by any advantage play short of cheating or theft.
neglecting to inform the casino how to run their games is fair territory. it isn't cheating and it isn't theft.
totally legal, totally within the realm of fair advantage play.

Quote: WongBo

their refusal to do so is clearly an unfair advantage move.

Its just another reason they deserve whatever happens to them
when an AP has an edge in one of their games. All casinos want
what long time gamblers used to call 'the best of it', and they
want it all the time. Good luck with that...

Quote: WongBo

i think most players are appreciative of getting forgiveness on a fouled hand when it happens.
i also think most of them think the rule is unfair in the first place.

That may be true, but then that's saying, "I personally don't like that rule, so that excuses me from playing by the rules." No, it doesn't.

Quote: Wongbo

i think this is one of the reasons players are less likely to report dealer error at this particular game.

I agree. It is another of one million reasons that one can use to justify not wanting to play ethically or by the rules, etc. After all, AP play is all about extracting the maximum and the most for me and only me, an "all's fair in War and Gambling" approach to matters....

Quote: WongBo

it would not significantly affect the house to reset fouled hands according to house way.

True. Some houses have such experienced players and dealers a mistake is virually never seen.
And true, it would not hurt any casino to automatically set a hand to the house way instead of making it an automatic loss, in case it is fouled.
I had a player who used to have me automatically set his hands to the house way, because he wanted to play Pai Gow Poker and simply never learned it; he was a Baccarat player where he was used to the dealer handling everything. For $25 a hand, this was fine with the pit boss and us all. He moved to California a few years ago.

Quote: WongBo

their refusal to do so is clearly an unfair advantage move.

No, it isn't. Players can be held fully accountable for their play of their own hands and its decisions, this is actually perfectly reasonable, too. This is especially true if players are to use better-than-House-Way settings.

Quote: WongBo

casino insiders can decry gambler dishonesty all they want.

Decry gambler dishonesty? More like: "we can't help but to notice how pervasive it is."

Quote: Wongbo

when the odds are so strongly in favor of the casino to begin with,

Damn it - if I have to actually have to Pay to play, - and just like everywhere else!

Quote: WongBo

it is just plain immoral for them to prey on novices and error prone players.

Do you mean like experience gamblers taking open shots at a new dealer trainee? Naaah....that would NEVER happen, and if it does, it's LEGAL, damn it! :)

Quote: WongBo

if casino insiders want to characterize all gamblers with one broad stroke, that just reeks of ignorance.

And so to if gamblers want to characterize all casino workers with one broad stroke, too.
For the record, I often described how wonderful it is to play with and to deal to people who operate very fairly and at a very high level, and that they do exist, and that I wished we saw more of these people. Remember, one drop of poison spoils the whole gallon of pure water.

Quote: WongBo

the fact is that the casino is predatory and they deserve to be hit by any advantage play short of cheating or theft.

Ah, you you admit your true point of view right here and right now:
1. Casinos are EVIL, and are:
- lying,
- cheating,
- no good sacks of stinking sh]t, who:
- should be beaten to death,
- with metal pipes,
- in a dark alleyway,
- on a rainy Tuesday night,
- where the wolverines will clean up their carrion.....they DESERVE it....
And so If I happen to do anything technically legal to them in terms of my own behavior or actions while on their business premises, it is perfect all right for this reason, and do NOT consider my own behavior while I am carrying the "objective" out.
Yeah, I got it. See it every day....well, actually five days a week at full time. "New shooter, Dice are out, we're coming out...six easy, point is six, mark the six...oh, look, some guy is claiming that his $100 don't pass bet was there BEFORE the point was established, how amusing...."

Quote: WongBo

neglecting to inform the casino how to run their games is fair territory. it isn't cheating and it isn't theft.

Of course not, and you won't go to jail. In fact, you may get exactly what you wanted: a little extra money that you know you didn't win by the fair play of the cards or dice, (that you would scream about if it went the other way) - and feel oh-so-goooood about it, too! Enjoy! Trust me, you are just being the archtypical gambler that we expect you to be. Remember, there are still a few people who actually say, "You know, I didn't win this money by the true play of the cards, so I AM returning it...you had a 19 and I had a 19, so it is a push..." You know, a handful of players do not want any money at all that they didn't actually win or earn by the true play of the cards, for some strange reason....

Quote: WongBo

totally legal, totally within the realm of fair advantage play.

Yes, indeed. Remember, we all expect to see your true selves shine through when you guys hit the tables, that's for sure...

Quote: Paigowdan

Ah, you you admit your true point of view right here and right now:
1. Casinos are EVIL, and are:
- lying,
- cheating,
- no good sacks of stinking sh]t, who:
- should be beaten to death,
- with metal pipes,
- in a dark alleyway,
- on a rainy Tuesday night,
- where the wolverines will clean up their carrion.....
And so If I happen to do anything to legal to them in terms of my behavior or action while on their business premises, it is perfect all right for this reason, and do NOT consider my own behavior while I am carrying the "objective" out.
Yeah, I got it. See it every day....well, actually five days a week at full time. "New shooter, Dice are out, we're coming out...six easy, point is six, mark the six..."


Of course not, and you won't go to jail. In fact, you may get exactly what you wanted: a little extra money that you know you didn't win by the fair play of the cards or dice, (that you would scream about if it went the other way) - and feel oh-so-goooood about it, too! Enjoy! Trust me, you are just being the archtypical gambler that we expect you to be. Remember, there are still a few people who actually say, "You know, I didn't win this money by the true play of the cards, so I AM returning it...you had a 19 and I had a 19, so it is a push..."


Yes, indeed. Remember, we all expect to see your true selves shine through when you guys hit the tables, that's for sure...

I am speaking specifically about the rules of PGP.
THe other rant you went off on is not what I said at all.
I just said the casino has a predatory attitude.
I didn't say anything illegal should be carried out, but i think it is totally fair for players to use every legal advantage at their disposal.
The casino sure does.
As far as AP targeting new dealers: yes it is fair game.
Hole carding, card counting, flashes, miscounts, misdeal, improper hand setting,
it is perfectly reasonable to not point any of these things out.
The casino pays a lot of people a lot of money to watch out for their own interests.
If your personnel aren't proficient at their jobs then spend more money to retain staff that are.
You can say all the negative things you want about gamblers and people in general, but
just because someone takes advantage of the casino does not make them dishonest or immoral.
The games are inherently "unfair".
The gambler accepts the house edge
and the casino accepts the fact that the players are going to try to beat them by any means necessary.
game on!

Dealers and players have always been on opposite sides of the fence. While I don't agree with any of Dan's logic or way of thinking, I don't disagree with him; after all, he is just protecting his interests and his employer's interests.

As with most professions, there is a us vs. them mentality. This mentality is much the same as when I was a member of law enforcement, as we also had a us vs. them mentality (so I understand his way of thinking). We always believed we were more moral, more sane, and fairer than "them". We also believed that we knew better than "them" (anyone who disagrees with this only needs to talk to a member of law enforcement). It wasn't until I moved onto my current profession, which is much more lucrative, that I was able to step back and see all points of view.

Thus, the only way to deal with guys like Dan is not to argue or talk to him. Just vote with your wallet. Don't tip. Tell every person that you know why they shouldn't tip a dealer (my two reasons are that they are player's opponents, and two, dealers generally have a contemptuous view of players). To convince people to eliminate their tipping habits, I used to refer them to a website called dicedealer, wherein you could get a view of what dealers really thought of players. Nowadays, the site is down, but you can refer them to posts like the post from Dan above.