Is the Casino Responsible...

Quote: Paigowdan

That is the casino argument - and the general casino result - that they're safe to play in and be in. How many feel uncomfortable, or unsafe there in a casino?

How much of our feelings are manipulated by alcohol, publicity hacks, etc.?

I feel safe at the Venetian. I don't feel safe at Terribles. Tuscany Suites is not going to refund your money or go after some long gone thief.
Some casinos will make good ... since you are a valuable player to them.

Quote: FleaStiff

Quote: Paigowdan

That is the casino argument - and the general casino result - that they're safe to play in and be in. How many feel uncomfortable, or unsafe there in a casino?

How much of our feelings are manipulated by alcohol, publicity hacks, etc.?

A part of me says about as much, and the full measure, as we are responsible for our drinking anywhere in any place...we're more likely to get killed in a pub than at a Mass, outside of the Middle East. Sometimes booze gives us a false sense of safety, especially when flapping our mouths at a guy twice our size, other times it increases our paranoia.
Another part is the show of the security desk and the guards - "look at us, - here for YOU, - you are safe..." it is saying. We assume it is true and reliable, and it mostly is.

Quote: Fleastiff

I feel safe at the Venetian. I don't feel safe at Terribles. Tuscany Suites is not going to refund your money or go after some long gone thief.
Some casinos will make good ... since you are a valuable player to them.

Fleastiff, to use a double negative - I've "never not felt safe" at any Vegas casino, perhaps too much so, at "some places." Perhaps I was more lucky then, - and more cautious and sober now. I don't know, but I don't drink much anymore, so a LOT of it is being sharp all the time.

Quote: Paigowdan

but we're not particularly fascinated by, or interested in gamblers

And you think we're fascinated by the pit? A pit
person is a dealer who bought a suit. They still
know zip about the games they supervise and
don't want to learn. What most of them don't about
the business they're in would fill a 600 page book.
Don't idolize these people Dan, you're better than that.

Quote: bbvk05

The casino can require flat bets. They don't.

Thats an extremely good point. Want to stop
card counters? Make players set a flat bet when they
sit down. The general public won't care. The casinos
don't do it because they don't really hate counters,
they just hate WINNING counters. So Dan, this
throws your holier than thou ethics claims out the
window. The casino loves counters, or they would
make every BJ table flat bet.

Quote: EvenBob

And you think we're fascinated by the pit? A pit
person is a dealer who bought a suit. They still
know zip about the games they supervise and
don't want to learn.

Nobody's fascinated with the pit supervisory position, or should be outside of the pit, aside from the fact that it is a step up from dealing.
One can honestly argue that going from dealer to floorman is a lot like going from cab driver to dispatcher.
A steady salary, yes; job security, not really: a pedestrian job in a rude industry that pays the bills.

Quote: EvenBob

What most of them don't about
the business they're in would fill a 600 page book.
Don't idolize these people Dan, you're better than that.

Idolize these people? No, not by occupation below a shift manager's position. I may idoloze a few who had recorded records and do live music gigs, written books, and simply do casino pit crew work as a a 'daytime job' within a fuller life.
So....Do I Respect some of them personally? Yes - indeed, some are well-balanced and fair people with complete lives, (and some are not and it shows), but the entire crew that we have is very sharp on the job, fair, seen it all.
They are more advanced than a lot of people getting drunk, blowing rent money, taking shots at dealers or other players, or grinding out or counting down some penny ante nickel-to-green action on a double deck at 3AM, trying to get back gas money for an '82 pickup before being backed off. With all of us thinking - with pity, 'get a job and a life, this ain't the movie "21" you're living here and now.' Defend this if you want, but this is consistently the real picture of this situation, of what card counting has become in a ton of cases, really.
And do I respect some players? Sure, some retired surgeons or executives or high school prinicpals or Hollywood music score composers (also typical of the full players' group here in Henderson), operating at levels higher than that of either the typical pit crew member or grinder gambler, playing some Blackjack or Craps after a movie and Steak House dinner, out with the wife.
NO public drunkeness, sweating the money, AP play attempts, hole-carding/past-posting shenanigans, or bickering a floorman's call on a corrected play ("Waaa! - the dealer's error makes the money MINE, all Mine! So what if I actually had a three-of-a-kind instead of a full house, I waaaant that money" etc..... " - and all other types and stuff that we've all seen and argued, debated or justified here.)
Do we like these other gamblers? You bet. Some of these gamblers I do idolize. One, the Hollywood music score compose whom I know (and looked up on www.imdb.com), is a great guy who often visits his second home in Henderson and plays locally. Another is a retired data processing executive and player, and an investor in EZ Pai Gow.
Did I ever see them take a shot at a dealer or another player? No.
Did I ever see them argue or bicker floorman's call of a play correction? No.
Did I ever see them refer to casino workers as the money-grubbing Dark Side? No, they say "Hi Dan/Jim/Andy/Susan/Bill/Leslie. Change $500, - and how are you tonight, guys?"
Did I ever see their handles ever pop up at a gamblers' forum to say that the floorman's/pit boss' ignorance could fill a 600 page book, or complain about how wrong it is to get caught and backed off by casino personnel - for trying some penny-ante shot-taking/heating or AP manuever against the evil dark side casino-man? No, not once. I guess they were too busy running high schools and operating rooms and data processing departments and writing music scores for Hollywood films to make card-counting or AP manuevers or the fractions of a house edge point a priority in their particular lives, and I can see their point, too. And I idolize these people because they made me feel like the loser I am, for being the dice dealer I am, - the way NO AP player could - or is able.

Quote: Paigowdan

...aside from the fact that it is a step up from dealing...
And I idolize these people because they made me feel like the loser I am, for being the dice dealer I am, - the way NO AP player could - or is able.

I hope I'm not hitting a nerve here, but -
- How can you still think highly of an industry that keeps you, already a not-so-young guy, who invented one of their better-earning games, in one of the lowest positions possible?

Don't get it wrong, we don't necessarily think that highly of you, and successfully tweaking a game is not that big of a deal, but not even floorman material - not that low. I presumed before this post that you did some occasional dealing just out of nostalgia, to stay connected with the games, or otherwise because you wanted to.

Quote: P90

I hope I'm not hitting a nerve here, but -
- How can you still think highly of an industry that keeps you, already a not-so-young guy, who invented one of their better-earning games, in one of the lowest positions possible?

I think highly of an industry in spite of the one relatively much lower position I have it in. Let's put it this way: in terms of job stature, I think more highly of an automotive engineer or the CEO of Ford Motors, than I do of an assembly line worker, which is what I am, relatively speaking, as a dealer. But then, by getting a lot of table games out in a lot of states (soon to be about 60 in about 14 states), I've caught the attention and earned the respect of the engineers and CEOs.

Quote: P90

Don't get it wrong, we don't necessarily think that highly of you,

Doesn't matter of what I am thought of here, really, by you or of another forum member - by virtue of simply being just a forum member? What's important is my bank account balance, what my wife and real friends think of people, and what the industry shakers think of me and my work, all of which are in good shape, as far as I can tell, and I think I have a pulse on that.

In terms of AP play, card counting, or hole-carding, or what have you, whatever a dealer, shift manager, or Table Games Director may think is akin to what a transit security expert, a bus driver, or a dispatcher thinks of a fare beater. And they have a pulse on that.

Quote: P90

Don't get it wrong, we don't necessarily think that highly of you,

Does that matter to me? should it? [see above]. Who are you, really, in this industry, and why do you matter? At a forum, we discuss and debate all sorts of concepts and issues without seeing each other's resumes. If we needed to see each others resumes, we may have, or would have already done so aside from this forum.

Quote: P90

and successfully tweaking a game is not that big of a deal,

Unless, of course, you are the one who gets real table games installed from a real idea, and gets extensive installations, great industry reviews, and a lot of real money for it. In other words, easy for you to say by virtue of NOT accomplishing this. And this is about as remarkable as a screenwriter getting his first screen play picked up and directed by the Coen brothers, an exceedingly difficult task and nothing really to sneeze at. Ask anyone in-the-know right here at this place as to how easy it is designing and distributing casino table games. This is especially so since the whole process (from budding game designer to my first production/income-producing table games install at the Barona Casino in San Diego in 2009) took less than two years. And now I am perhaps months from retiring from dealing as I see fit, and as a not-so-young-or-old 51, or about four years out since my first foray into table games design. This isn't too shabby by any standard, it is an unusual achievement. In fact, it is remarkable. I may stay and deal, or I may retire from dealing, I'll make a call by summer.

Quote: P90

I presumed before this post that you did some occasional dealing just out of nostalgia, to stay connected with the games, or otherwise because you wanted to.

Wrong on some counts.
1. I've dealt fulltime, non-stop, for the past 6 years. Never at any time, even when I was a starting break-in dealer (nominally on call) did I ever deal less than full time. This is unusual. I even dealt fulltime on swing shift (nights) when I spent a semester teaching high-school math full time day at a Las Vegas high school four years ago, considering the transition from dealing to teaching. (I went via the "ARP" program, or "Alternate Route to licensure Program" that the Clark County School District offered. Yes, I have a University degree; I was a computer program for several firms for 20 years in New York before moving to Las Vegas). As it worked out, I stayed in gaming. But no, it was not some occasional dealing. It was full time, non-stop, for six years straight, to set that record straight.
2. Yes, it was to stay connected to table games and industry work, certainly I stayed connected to table games work and to the industry I choose as my current field.
3. obviously I wanted to. it wasn't 100% a rose garden, it was real world work, and I feel I accomplished some remarkable work and achievements in a steady and steadfast fashion, with some good traction.

Quote: Paigowdan

I think highly of an industry in spite of the one relatively much lower position I have it in.

I know. How do you justify them keeping you in such a low position?

Quote: Paigowdan

Doesn't matter of what I am thought of here...

You've misread me. I said "we don't necessarily think that highly of you", where "that highly" stands for something like world-class genius, etc.
This was followed by "not even floorman material", which is what the industry apparently thinks of you, or at least used to think of you.
Concluding in " - not that low", which is reserved praise. That is, it can safely be said no one on the forum thinks of you as low as not to qualify for higher casino floor positions.
For the rest, i.e. how much higher it goes from there, I can't speak for the entire forum. But we clearly think of you higher than the industry seems to.

Quote: Paigowdan

Unless, of course, you are the one who gets real table games installed from a real idea, and gets extensive installations, great industry reviews, and a lot of real money for it.

You're making my point. Once again, it's not that big of a deal, i.e. not like you invented Blackjack, but it's still a pretty big deal as you convincingly show. It should look very good on your resume, good enough for easily a couple levels above a dealer. Do they even require a CV when applying for a dealer job, by the way?

The only reason I could see for you not being in a higher position is that perhaps you enjoy the process of dealing on its own, like a hobby, but from your previous post that doesn't seem to be your opinion of the job.

While at that, have they at least offered you a promotion? In a different industry (more "industrial"), I've seen it happen, and if I invented and pushed through [something very useful], that would be very likely at first opportunity.

Quote: bbvk05

In Nevada the chip itself ultimately remains property of the casino, but it is a transferable debt note. The holder of the chip has rights to payment or an adjudicative process through the gaming commission should payment be denied. . . . Also, they can deny payment to people they think illegally obtained it.

And that denial can be challenged, putting the burden of proof on the casino.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Quote: bbvk05

In Nevada the chip itself ultimately remains property of the casino, but it is a transferable debt note. The holder of the chip has rights to payment or an adjudicative process through the gaming commission should payment be denied. . . . Also, they can deny payment to people they think illegally obtained it.

And that denial can be challenged, putting the burden of proof on the casino.

They may have that proof: surveillance tapes, witnesses, etc.
The fact that a casino check/chip may be a "transferable debt note" doesn't make it unchallengeable as to its origins or to the integrity of its possession. If you're caught with "hot goods," you may have a problem. (wow, some of the stuff....)

Quote: P90

[on Dan's stature/rep in the casino pit]While at that, have they at least offered you a promotion? In a different industry (more "industrial"), I've seen it happen, and if I invented and pushed through [something very useful], that would be very likely at first opportunity.

My casino pit rep and dealer's rep and reliability is rock solid and very fine. A lot of great dealers of fine ability are simply needed to deal, especially if a reliable dice dealer, and the salary is essentially the same as a floorman without the additional headaches. They suspect I'm going to retire from dealing, and go into full time game design/distribution, and would therefore not need to fill a specific supervisory position with one who may vacate it straight away. I've always said they're a great crew and great people to with with and to work for, while acknowledging that a dealer's position is only a fine "end position" job that you don't take home with you after clock-out, - when part of an otherwise fuller life, (though some of the problem gamblers and APs and problem drinkers can make work a problem). And having a "rest of your life" is vital, whether it's more gaming or music or writing or whatever it is. There is a cetain freedom in being a dealer or waiter or cab driver. Once you get to the floorman/pit boss level, you're more locked into the pit grind work, and are less free to pursue other endeavors. One of our waiters at the Fiesta Henderson Steak house (Fuego) is an accomplished musician and writer, and couldn't be so if he ran the food service operation.

" the salary is essentially the same as a floorman without the additional headaches. " Ans so there is the explanation for so many incompetent floor personnel.

Quote: buzzpaff

" the salary is essentially the same as a floorman without the additional headaches. " Ans so there is the explanation for so many incompetent floor personnel.

No.
They're not incompetent because you disagree with them. You can present your case to the casino manager, or to gaming. They won't turn you away if you view has merit. If your view has merit, you may get the incompetent floorman fired, improving the casino.
Some are incompetent because they're not sharp or don't care, and some are competent, because they're sharp and do care about their work. These are individual qualities.
it's not about salary; many business executives make more than the President of the United States, are they more competent than the president, by a salary basis? Or each other, by a salary basis?
And this is the same as in any field or discipline.
A dealer does more continuous non-stop work, and a floor supervisor oversees; in many ways a floor supervision job is easier.
Both make a similar living wage, and do similar pit work on the same games in casino pit action, and they can be either incompetent or competent based on the individual's qualities, again, same as in any field.
Buzz, how long have you been a dealer or floorman?

Dan stop viewing this as a personal disagreement about counting. I just meant that in business today all too often first level managers are not adequately compensated for the added responsibilities. All too often a worker takes a promotion to say " I am in management" or to avoid the actual work or stress in dealing directly with consumers. Too many people who would be able to perform better , like yourself, will not put up with all the bullshit and headaches for the same salary. Read The Peter Principle if it is still in print.
I was only a dealer while waiting for an age discrimination suit against AT&t to be settled. But I was a shop steward for 30+ years and saw all too many incompetent people promoted to 1st level management, where they stayed forever.

" A dealer does more continuous non-stop work, and a floor supervisor oversees; in many ways a floor supervision job is easier."

I agree but still believe more responsibilty should mean increased pay. the best supervisors I saw were the first ones to go home for the day, not the last!

Quote: buzzpaff

Dan stop viewing this as a personal disagreement about counting.

I'm not viewing this as a personal disagreement about counting; I discussed salaries, game distribution, the integrity of possessing a certain casino chip (is it yours or not?), and the fact that salaries do not always corrolate to a person's particular competence or qualities on the casino floor - or in any discipline, bringing up debate points, among a lot things also.

Quote: buzzpaff

I just meant that in business today all too often first level managers are not adequately compensated for the added responsibilities.

Quite often they are making a good salary, a living wage, - and they certainly got a promotion for appearing capable in the view of experienced management. I just didn't know your rationale behind: "Oh! that explains incompetent floormen!!" I disagreed in an "Oh, really, - how so, please explain?" fashion.

Quote: buzzpaff

All too often a worker takes a promotion to say " I am in management" or to avoid the actual work or stress in dealing directly with consumers.

Those may be valid reasons for the person taking the promotion, - but it ignores the reasons and qualities that the higher, more experienced management team saw to promote that person.

Quote: buzzpaff

Too many people who would be able to perform better, like yourself, will not put up with all the bullshit and headaches for the same salary. Read The Peter Principle if it is still in print.

I'm familiar with the Peter Principal and the four-decades old (1969) book. The standard view on the Peter Principle is:"However, there has been no large-scale statistical verification of the Peter Principle, and most evidence given for the axiom is intended to be humorous and is usually anecdotal."

Quote: buzzpaff

I was only a dealer while waiting for an age discrimination suit against AT&t to be settled. But I was a shop steward for 30+ years and saw all too many incompetent people promoted to 1st level management, where they stayed forever.

First of all, and in disagreement of the Peter Principle, at least some of them took care of their business properly, not all of them knuckleheads, but many, I'm sure. But this is the telecomm industry bureaucracy, not the casino pit, and the Peter Principle and the telecomm giant's experience might not apply here in every case...again, some are good, some are bad, and most pit crews are sharp teams doing the job they're supposed to carry out, the exceptions not always making a hard-and-fast rule...

Quote: Paigowdan

They're not incompetent because you disagree with them. You can present your case to the casino manager, or to gaming.

You're right - they're not incompetent because buzzpaff or anyone else disagrees with them. They're incompetent because they are incompetent.

Quote: Paigowdan

it's not about salary; many business executives make more than the President of the United States, are they more competent than the president

This one? Hell yeah.
He belongs in sales, not in management.

Quote: P90

You're right - they're not incompetent because buzzpaff or anyone else disagrees with them. They're incompetent because they are incompetent.

On the Wiz's radio show they had an AP author, who
said, among other things, that casinos are in a dark
and loathsome business, they're unfeeling and uncaring
and do nothing good for the world. He said being a pit
person is a horrible profession and he can't understand
how anybody can stand around in a suit all day inhaling
second hand smoke. That pretty much wraps it up for
my sentiments as well.

What I don't understand about this forum is that: people who
1. never ran a casino or gambling hall -
2. but live for gaming and gambling to the point spending their free time here when away from the casinos
3. must be critical of the industry that supplies their passion.

This is like detesting the woman you're obsessed with.
I demand to have my cake and eat it too.

Clearly then people who
1) never ran a hospital or sold drugs,
2) but are dependent on medical aid,
3) yet dare criticize medical and pharmaceutical industries,
must be hypocrites.

Quote: Paigowdan

What I don't understand about this forum is that: people who
1. never ran a casino or gambling hall -
2. but live for gaming and gambling to the point spending their free time here when away from the casinos

Always curious about what the DarkSide is up
to, Dan. Just like you're curious about AP's.

Yes, a pretty good show is put on by having the guards, radios, sport jackets, etc. but its all for the casino's benefit to have smooth operations. Events that do take place often create headlines about "a major strip casino" rather than giving the name. Press releases are artfully worded.

People have been targeted on the casino floor and followed to their rooms. Its bad publicity so the casino tries to watch foot and elevator traffic. Casinos loathe domestic disputes that are settled in or near their casinos, so free escorts are offered instantly without any pre-qualifying whatsoever. Gang warfare from the streets of LA is best left there.

For places that are clearly the targets of criminals, its good that you feel safe. That often means incidents are skillfully handled, not that they don't take place.

Quote: P90

Clearly then people who
1) never ran a hospital or sold drugs,
2) but are dependent on medical aid,
3) yet dare criticize medical and pharmaceutical industries,
must be hypocrites.

P90, your analogy is valid only if medical care were a recreational option in our lives; obviously, it is not.
You cannot skip required medical care without endangering yourself or being foolhardy or suicidal.
You should skip casino activity, if it makes you miserable, or detest what it is about, or detest your supplier of this optional recreation.

When they had quarter slot machines, if the machine malfunctioned and dropped all the quarters from the hopper into your tray, the money was yours. That was the law. I know this first hand. Today, if a voucher adds another zero on the end, the money is not yours. What's the difference?

The difference is that if the payment is determined to be an overpayment in error, then the error gets corrected, to include denying of the excess amount.

Quote: Paigowdan

You cannot skip required medical care without endangering yourself or being foolhardy or suicidal.

No, only some medical care is essential. It's not essential to gobble prozac. It's not essential to have skin lifts or botox injections. It's not even essential to keep old people semi-alive on machines. Psychoterapy isn't essential, what else.

Quote: Paigowdan

P90, your analogy is valid only if medical care were a recreational option in our lives; obviously, it is not.

It is not? And here I was thinking.

Replace "medical and pharmaceutical" with "car industry". You don't have to live in a place where you need a car. And if you decide to, you can buy an old clunker for next to nothing. So, are people who buy cars not allowed to be critical of the car industry?

It's definitely not essential to have a computer, and if you do, you don't have to actually pay for your software. So let's talk about that. Are people only allowed to be be critical of the software industry if they either a) don't have a computer, b) write software themselves, c) only use OSS, d) pirate everything they use?

More BS.
Medicine, pharmaceuticals, cars, and computers are all essentials that we rely on.
Gambling halls and casinos are not actually necessary for our lives, - just like water parks - and if we detest them, villify them, and their taking of our money, we'd be utterly stupid - just retarded - to simultaneously patronize them and vilify them and bitch about them and their existence - when they are utterly optinal and recreational. This screams, "fix it, or don't use it, or shaddup."
I have little respect for those who cannot put their money where their mouths are. Who does, really?

Don't bitch about them; fix them with realistic solutions, or leave them, live free of it in your life to find something that works without misery. Cinema? literature? contract bridge? If you bitch about something you use, but cannot do better or offer solutions to fix it, then what's the point of you using it and then bitching about it when it's optional? If you don't use it and are free of it, why criticise it if others do?

This is how I think: I never bitched about the commission in Pai Gow poker without doing something about it, I set out to come up with what I thought was better, an improvement, an alternative.

Quote: Paigowdan

Medicine, pharmaceuticals, cars, and computers are all essentials that we rely on.

Bandages, penicillin, twelve year old subcompacts and eight year old celerons are essentials we rely on.
Nose jobs, prozac, 'vettes and dual HD7970 rigs are not.

Quote: Paigowdan

You should skip casino activity, if it makes you miserable, or detest what it is about, or detest your supplier of this optional recreation.

Or beat them at their own game. They really hate
that, they want to fool all the people all the time.

I saw a scene from the 1933 movie State Fair this
week. A rube was taken for all his money by a
ring toss game that was rigged. So he practiced
with his own setup for a year at home and became
an AP. When he went back to the fair, he won a
prize every time he threw a ring and the game
operator had a fit. He told the player he was cheating
and he couldn't play anymore. Sound familiar?

Quote: EvenBob

Or beat them at their own game. They really hate
that, they want to fool all the people all the time.

Beating them at their own game would have to involve obeying the results of the cards and dice instead of trying to circumvent them. If you're not doing this, then you are not beating them at their own game.

Quote: EvenBob

I saw a scene from the 1933 movie State Fair this
week. A rube was taken for all his money by a
ring toss game that was rigged. So he practiced
with his own setup for a year at home and became
an AP. When he went back to the fair, he won a
prize every time he threw a ring and the game
operator had a fit. He told the player he was cheating
and he couldn't play anymore. Sound familiar?

Yes. it sounds just like a movie being confused with real life.

Quote: Paigowdan

If you're not doing this, then you are not beating them at their own game.

Sure you are. The casino has all their secret little rules,
and so does an AP. Fair is fair..

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes. it sounds just like a movie being confused with real life.

It was stunning to me to watch that 5min scene. The
game operator had a built in edge with the rings being
just big enough to fit over the tops of the prize towers.
The fact that somebody used their brain and their skill
to figure a way to beat the edge just infuriated the
operator no end. He threatened the AP with bodily harm,
with arrest and major jail time. It was exactly what
happens today when an AP gets caught by a casino, their
reaction is just the same as the game operators was. They're
the only one allowed to have the edge, how dare anybody
game them at their own game.

The fact of the matter is that casino and gambling hall personnel are the most experienced and well acquainted sources on gamblers and their behavior and conduct.
How could we not be?
The view is:
1. Many are gracious customers.
2. Some, too many, are problem customers, and are part of the business reality.
3. alcohol related issues may arise, but beverage service is a customer demand that is meet with both service providers and with alcohol-awareness policies applied to it.
4. Security on behalf of the players is provided on a good faith, serious-effort basis at all times.
5. Additional non-gambling serices should always be offered; food service operations, movie outlets, bowling alleys, arcades, etc., and are not part of any diabolical plot.

----------------
"Secret little rules?" This is paranoid BS.

I design table games for casino operations, and the whole process, as exhaustive as it is, is complete with mathematical verification, specific game design and proceures for independent gaming authority approval, and all game designs and their math reports are also submitted to independent site and publishers (like Mike S. and his WizardofOdds here) - without protest or any sort of "cover-up" about any game's performance or stats. If any spin is applied, Mike will personally and professionally nail you to the boards on it.
Gaming is one of the most heavily regulated businesses, neutrality is tremdously imposed and verified, people like Mike Shackelford makes his life spreading casino information and facts, - and casinos have absolutely no objection to his "fair and balanced open knowledge' policy.
He even posts and displays info on hole-card and card-counting AP play and techniques (IMO a tad much, but WTF, he's got to have "street creds" with the gamblers and general public), - and the casinos seem to post no objections or obstacles. Ask him directly if he is hunted down by the gaming industry as an animal to be killed for all this, - or is sought out by the industry as an friendly expert, actually. Ask him to verify this or to expound on this. The anger, accusations, and dark side paranoia seems to come from a sub-population of gamblers, and not from gaming industry actions or policies.
--------------------------
that prehistoric movie hasn't a thing to do with the modern casinos' handling of AP/shot-takers/cheater/threats/etc.
This is viewed as "loss and theft prevention" - as any business would practice.
Do mass transit systems "panic and sweat the money" over potential losses from fare-beaters, - or do they view it as a simple business issue to be addressed by policy and procedures? This is certainly the same with casinos. Do honest winners get hated and treated with smear campaigns, or are they posted on walls in a winners hall of fame at some places? If casinos were reneging on their winners, there would be public outcry, and there would be no patronage or trust. Obviously, this is not at all the case. Business is good, precisely because it is a good business.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Quote: Paigowdan

that prehistoric movie hasn't a thing to do with the modern casinos' handling of AP/shot-takers/cheater/threats/etc.

Oh, but it does. The operator concocted a game with
an edge that made it impossible for the public to get
ahead and stay ahead. When somebody used their
brain and developed a skill to overcome the games
edge, the operator went ballistic and over reacted,
just like the casinos did when card counting was first
discovered. He threatened the AP with physical
violence (like a back rooming with a beating) and then
threatened him by saying he was calling the police and
pressing charges for cheating, which meant 2 years
in prison. The AP pointed out he wasn't cheating at
all, he was just using the skill he learned in his spare
time at home. The operator finally realized the guy
wasn't cheating and refunded the money he'd lost last
year so he'd go away.

Casinos reacted the same way to AP's, even taking it to
the Supreme Court, they were so convinced it was cheating.
It was a blow they've never gotten over, so they continue
to call it cheating even though they know its not. Its that
uneducated lowlife Mafia mentality that still rules Vegas,
that thinks they can do anything they like to anybody and
its OK because they want it to be OK. Its the big kid taking
the little kids lunch money just because he can.

Quote: Paigowdan

If casinos were reneging on their winners, there would be public outcry,

And we read about that happening all the time, don't we Dan.

" casinos have absolutely no objection to his "fair and balanced open knowledge' policy. "

Then there must be some other reason he is on several casino's DNI list ?

" people like Mike Shackelford makes his life spreading casino information and facts " And Michael counts when he plays blackjack, does he not !