Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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February 9th, 2012 at 5:04:31 PM permalink
Quote: cardcounter

Carnival games are games that have a high house edge.


No.
Carnival games are "one-off," or new or "niche" games that are non-standard offerings - regardless - and with nothing to do - with the house edge.
Two Card high = 1.3% H.E.
Extreme 21 = 0.6% to 1.16% HE
etc...
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
CowPieDon
CowPieDon
Joined: Jan 16, 2012
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February 9th, 2012 at 7:16:31 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Carnival games are games that have a high house edge.

Quote: Paigowdan

No.
Carnival games are "one-off," or new or "niche" games that are non-standard offerings - regardless - and with nothing to do - with the house edge.
Two Card high = 1.3% H.E.
Extreme 21 = 0.6% to 1.16% HE
etc...



While a blanket statement that all carnival games have a high house edge is incorrect, it is fair to state that carnival games tend to have a much higher house edge than more traditional card games like Blackjack, Pai Gow Poker, or Baccarat.

Let's look at the house edges on some of the more popular carnival games:
Caribbean Stud = 5.2%
Mississippi Stud = 4.9%
Three Card Poker = 3.4%
Four Card Poker = 2.8%
Texas Shootout = 2.6%
Ultimate Texas Hold'em = 2.2%
Texas Hold'em Bonus = 2.0%

When coming across a new carnival game, it's generally safe to assume that it's a rip-off game with a 2-5% house edge until you've seen analysis which suggests otherwise.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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February 9th, 2012 at 7:32:35 PM permalink
yes, indeed, this is generally true.
It is not the defining criterion of carnival games - but a very safe assumption about the older carnival games.
But for table games to have a 2.9% HE or less, it's not too bad.
The newer carnival/side game/new idea game/etc - the house edge is generally lower, as game designers want to neither burn out the players or burn the house, either way. The "Mike Shackleford/WOO" review effect on game examination is a big influence.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
fremont4ever
fremont4ever
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March 8th, 2012 at 8:20:21 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

It would be interesting to see a chart of the above mentioned games' ascendancy stats in a line graph over time. One chart for $ Revenue, the other for total installs.



This is a subject that fascinated me too, and though I didn't do all a full analysis, I did look at Three Card Poker (TCP), Caribbean Stud Poker (CSP), and Let It Ride (LIR) tables in Nevada. Here's what I found:



I owe a huge thank you to the UNLV Center for Gaming Research for the figures. All yearly figures from June of that year. A few quick observations and notes:

* Before 1995, both CSP and LIR were included in the "other games"
* Before 2002, any TCP tables were included in "other games"
* Pai Gow Poker (PGP) had 282 tables in 2011, and 293 in 2004. Interesting.
* My supposition that CSP and LIR were more popular at their peaks than TCP is now looks to be false. There were only 231 "other" games in 1994.
* LIR seems to be fading a little at a time; no telling how long that will continue
* It seems to be a waste to list CSP separately at this point; there are 279 "other" table games and several of them must have more than eight tables
EvenBob
EvenBob
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March 8th, 2012 at 8:29:42 PM permalink
Its interesting the other two games went
back and forth and CSP had a steady decline
since 1995. I played it once and I think my
comment was 'What a ripoff.'
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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March 8th, 2012 at 11:00:26 PM permalink
Quote: CowPieDon

Quote: Paigowdan

Carnival games are games that have a high house edge.

Quote: Paigowdan

No.
Carnival games are "one-off," or new or "niche" games that are non-standard offerings - regardless - and with nothing to do - with the house edge.
Two Card high = 1.3% H.E.
Extreme 21 = 0.6% to 1.16% HE
etc...



While a blanket statement that all carnival games have a high house edge is incorrect, it is fair to state that carnival games tend to have a much higher house edge than more traditional card games like Blackjack, Pai Gow Poker, or Baccarat.


No, it's not. I WORK reviewing and recommending new games, and the days of high house edge "hit-and run" ripoff games are gone. No one will put out a new game to see it get trashed or killed or fade away. The lessons of CSP/LIR are in place. We KNOW that the general public is generally ignorant, and so just automatically assumes that new games are ripoffs ( - and you're a typical case in point with your comment). As a result, we have to place fairer games that play well (fair house edge, high hit frequency), so that the new games will have a chance at some popularity and longevity. And if Three-Card poker were a ripoff, instead of a game that's fun to play can where players can win, it would have been gone by now, pretty much like CSP and LIR.

Quote: CowPieDon

Let's look at the house edges on some of the more popular carnival games:
Caribbean Stud = 5.2%
Mississippi Stud = 4.9%
Three Card Poker = 3.4%
Four Card Poker = 2.8%
Texas Shootout = 2.6%
Ultimate Texas Hold'em = 2.2%
Texas Hold'em Bonus = 2.0%


Most of these game provide raise opportunities where the element of risk helps the player. Ultimate Texas Hold 'em, Four Card Poker, and Texas hold 'em bonus have HE's of < 3%. Blackjack wouldn't be released today with house edge parameters of < 2%, and so we are seeing people play and patronize 6:5, etc.

Quote: CowPieDon

When coming across a new carnival game, it's generally safe to assume that it's a rip-off game with a 2-5% house edge until you've seen analysis which suggests otherwise.


No.
When coming across a new carnival game, it's generally safe to review the game on WOO, and to sample the game for yourself, and consider the effect of element of risk - so that you can really know what you're talking about instead of making blanket statements, like "tend to have much higher house edges..." and wrongly applying statements to games that don't have such characteristics. Know for sure before opening the mouth, as they say, and admit you don't know WHEN you don't know.

If you look at all games and assume that 2% or 'x'% to be the "ripoff point," then you failing to see such things as the paytable payouts, the element of risk, and a host of other factors, along with the fact that if any game is a ripoff because it has a higher house edge than optimal BJ, then optimal BJ would the the ONLY table game that is considered viable. This is not the case. If a game is successful and popular, it is so for some very researched reasons.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
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March 9th, 2012 at 5:38:36 AM permalink
What I've gleaned from this thread:

Let It Ride was apparently dubbed Let It Die by bored dealers and so it seems to have drifted off the charts.
CSP seems to have been somewhat volatile but less popular.

Faro was oft rigged and might even have been at one time almost universally rigged but remained being played due mainly to simplicity and lack of alternatives.

Craps had staying power and really boomed when it became Banked Craps rather than Craps.

I think the Faro data is telling. Desperation may have sustained Faro. And a customer base that is desperate will support anything if it really has to. Most gambling halls cater to gamblers, the Evil Empire caters to newbies, half-drunks, would-be gamblers and tourists.

I would say that Indian Casino main job is to educate new gamblers ... and they dont seem to be doing it.
hook3670
hook3670
Joined: May 17, 2011
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March 9th, 2012 at 7:30:34 AM permalink
Also I think Mississippi Stub has taken over for LIR to some extent. I realize it has different rules, but the jist of the game is the same.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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May 29th, 2018 at 5:45:12 PM permalink
And my hit gambling threads keep coming. This
one got 68 replies and 12,000 hits. Still interesting.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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May 29th, 2018 at 6:28:35 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

And my hit gambling threads keep coming. This
one got 68 replies and 12,000 hits. Still interesting.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/28330-bad-casino-giveaways/


Bad casino giveaways?
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... Last Page
Thread starter: Nathan by Nathan
Aug 24, 2017 at 5:41 PM


And it's not even a year old.

A recent one she started has 5 stars.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

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