EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 425
  • Posts: 24460
January 22nd, 2012 at 2:32:33 PM permalink
Why are some casino games called 'carnival games'? Its
a term I never heard until maybe the last 10 years. Why
are they called that, I never see them in a carnival. It
seems somewhat disrespectful, like you shouldn't take
them seriously.

Elliot Jacobson says:

{There is an unprecedented need for new table games in the market. These new table games are often called "carnival games." These games are not for the serious player -- the backbone of traditional table games consists of blackjack, roulette, baccarat and craps. The new breed of games include names like Three Card Poker, Caribbean Stud, Spanish 21, Super Fun 21, Ultimate Texas Hold'Em, and many many more.}

I'm sure EZ Pai Gow is a carnival game, but Dan and
players take it very seriously. And roulette and craps are
certainly carnival games, the old travelling carnivals had
variations of wheel and dice games, if not the actual games
themselves. Does anybody know the origin of calling new
casino games 'carnival', it really doesn't make any sense.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Face
Administrator
Face
Joined: Dec 27, 2010
  • Threads: 49
  • Posts: 4448
January 22nd, 2012 at 2:41:33 PM permalink
If you check my threads, I brought this up last year. Mayhap you'll find your answer there.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 425
  • Posts: 24460
January 22nd, 2012 at 2:51:42 PM permalink
A year ago this week you had a similar thread, asking
the same question. No posts from me, I must have
missed it. The question wasn't really answered, so I
guess nobody knows why or where the mostly insulting
term came from. Carnival games are for children and
bumpkins, casino games are far more sophisticated.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
January 22nd, 2012 at 3:52:08 PM permalink
"Carnival games" simply means games "other than the common and standard casino games," which are Craps, Blackjack, Pai Gow Poker, Roulette, and Baccarat. EZ Pai Gow Poker isn't a carnival game, as it's Pai Gow Poker; some casino operators offer only this version of Pai Gow Poker (Ameristar Casinos, Cannery Casino group, the Barona Casino, etc.) Same with EZ Baccarat, and the same with crap games that pay triple in the field instead of double; same with Blackjack where the dealer stands on soft 17 instead of hits soft 17.

Craps was once a carnival game, - back in 1915, when Hazard was the main gambling dice game. Blackjack was once a carnival side game when Faro was the main stay card game.

What defines a carnival game is that it is a new game of different game play rules that exist in the table games pit as a novelity type game that may or may not become popular. Carnival games are Crazy 4 Poker, Deuces Wild, Zero, Rupert's Island Draw, Money Market, Let It Ride, Two-cards High, Wish card Poker, Bet you Luck, Texas Hold 'em Bonus, Rabbit Hunter, and the like.

Three card poker is no longer a carnival game, as it is now a main stay casino game offering with over 1,000 installs. Casino chains are expected to offer the game as a standard game offering, as opposed to "optionally". Three Card Poker is a mandatory game offering for the major casino chains; it must be offered, - just like craps or Pai Gow Poker or Blackjack or Roulette.

What defines a major casino game is that customers expect that game to be there, and that casinos consistently offer the game.
What defines a carnival game is that it is a novelty game that may or may not be present at a casino's table games pit, and is a side offering that is aside from the main stay table games. This is not a hard concept to grasp.

The major casino games and offerings are listed on the front page by name at casino game info sites such as wizard of odds, and the carnival games are lumped under "other," or under "more [casino games] odds and strategies click here....", and off of the main listing.

This is the general convention of "standard casino games" versus "carnival games" as it is used in and around the industry. This list changes slowly over the years, as some games become expected standards, and other games become optional side games that might not be offered.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
RonC
RonC
Joined: Jan 18, 2010
  • Threads: 40
  • Posts: 4874
January 22nd, 2012 at 3:59:00 PM permalink
Wouldn't the definition of a "carnival game" include games with higher house edges like Mississippi Stud, Three Card Poker (does "installs" determine carnival or not, or is it the high house edge that makes the difference?), Casino War, the Big Wheel, etc.???
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
January 22nd, 2012 at 4:04:20 PM permalink
House edge is irrelevant, although some carnival games have higher HA's. Some carnival games have low house edges; Two Cards High has a house edge of 1.3%. TCH is truly a carnival game, a well-playing carnival game that is very popular in South Korea.

Basically, the expression "carnival game" means "novelty side game" that is not a mainstay or standard offering at most casinos. That is exactly what the phrase "carnival game" means as it is used in the industry, that is it.

Game type AND installs determine the status. Your side game gets more than a Thousand installs - and casinos make it a standard, essentially a must-have offering, the game is now a mainstay. Three Card Poker hit this hallmark level. Joker's Wild (a small casino on the outskirts of Boulder Highway) has it, and it gets a ton of action. I walked in and saw it there in a six-table pit, and thought, "This thing is everywhere...." It is. Jokers Wild has craps, Roulette, Blackjack, - and three card poker.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 425
  • Posts: 24460
January 22nd, 2012 at 4:16:12 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

EZ Pai Gow Poker isn't a carnival game.



How many indian casinos offer EZ Pai Gow? I've never
seen it in the midwest. From what I'm reading, anything
thats not roulette, BJ, craps or bac is considered a carnival
game in the industry.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
P90
P90
Joined: Jan 8, 2011
  • Threads: 12
  • Posts: 1703
January 22nd, 2012 at 4:17:48 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

"Carnival games" simply means games "other than the common and standard casino games," which are Craps, Blackjack, Pai Gow Poker, Roulette, and Baccarat.


I thought PGP is still not quite out of the carnival category.
(Distinct from Pai Gow which is Asian.)

Quote: Paigowdan

Craps was once a carnival game, - back in 1915, when Hazard was the main gambling dice game.


But then craps is just Hazard with the Main permanently fixed at 7.
Quite similar to how modern baccarat devolved from Chemin de Fer.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
January 22nd, 2012 at 4:25:18 PM permalink
It is the major Pai Gow poker game in the San Diego area, and in Missouri casinos via Ameristar Group, and Lumiere Place Casinos. It's also in Council Bluffs, Iowa, and East Chicago, Illinois.

Carnival game = novelty side game that is an optional game for the table games pit.
versus:
Major Casino game = a game type that is commonly played and expected to be present, - and generally must be offered by a casino as a standard offering; Three Card Poker is a major casino game, along with Baccarat, Craps, Blackjack, Pai Gow Poker, and Roulette. These six games are the short-list of major casino games. You can indeed say that they are in every major casino.

Deuces Wild almost achieved this level, then had a sudden and very hard fall from grace ten years ago. Let it Ride and Carribean Stud also gave this status a shot. Three Card Poker made it. I can hear Barry Manilow sing: "Looks like you MADE it...."
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
Joined: May 5, 2010
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 1573
January 22nd, 2012 at 4:27:20 PM permalink
Carnival games mean different things to different casinos. I think it depends on how the casino views certain games. If they require extensive training for a game (longer than a short session), it's no longer a carnival game. If they require no to minimal training (despite whether they SHOULD train more), then it's a carnival game.

Spanish 21 is often considered carnival, as it plays mostly like BJ and doesn't really require much more training than BJ. Most casinos treat Pai Gow Poker as a regular game, but I know a few casinos that treat it as a carnival game. How you can deal the game with minimal training, I'm still surprised, but there are a few houses that teach a crash course and expect dealers to get it. With the new cheating machines that set the house way on a screen, it basically could become a carnival game.

I would say there are five "non-carnival" games that every casino would agree with... Blackjack, Craps, Roulette, Baccarat and Pai Gow Tiles. MOST casinos would also add Pai Gow Poker and (the few that have it) Texas Shootout as non-carnival. Every other game would be considered carnival by most casinos... but again, not ALL, since some require training for every game.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park

  • Jump to: