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EvenBob
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January 22nd, 2012 at 2:32:33 PM permalink
Why are some casino games called 'carnival games'? Its
a term I never heard until maybe the last 10 years. Why
are they called that, I never see them in a carnival. It
seems somewhat disrespectful, like you shouldn't take
them seriously.

Elliot Jacobson says:

{There is an unprecedented need for new table games in the market. These new table games are often called "carnival games." These games are not for the serious player -- the backbone of traditional table games consists of blackjack, roulette, baccarat and craps. The new breed of games include names like Three Card Poker, Caribbean Stud, Spanish 21, Super Fun 21, Ultimate Texas Hold'Em, and many many more.}

I'm sure EZ Pai Gow is a carnival game, but Dan and
players take it very seriously. And roulette and craps are
certainly carnival games, the old travelling carnivals had
variations of wheel and dice games, if not the actual games
themselves. Does anybody know the origin of calling new
casino games 'carnival', it really doesn't make any sense.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Face
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January 22nd, 2012 at 2:41:33 PM permalink
If you check my threads, I brought this up last year. Mayhap you'll find your answer there.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
EvenBob
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January 22nd, 2012 at 2:51:42 PM permalink
A year ago this week you had a similar thread, asking
the same question. No posts from me, I must have
missed it. The question wasn't really answered, so I
guess nobody knows why or where the mostly insulting
term came from. Carnival games are for children and
bumpkins, casino games are far more sophisticated.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Paigowdan
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January 22nd, 2012 at 3:52:08 PM permalink
"Carnival games" simply means games "other than the common and standard casino games," which are Craps, Blackjack, Pai Gow Poker, Roulette, and Baccarat. EZ Pai Gow Poker isn't a carnival game, as it's Pai Gow Poker; some casino operators offer only this version of Pai Gow Poker (Ameristar Casinos, Cannery Casino group, the Barona Casino, etc.) Same with EZ Baccarat, and the same with crap games that pay triple in the field instead of double; same with Blackjack where the dealer stands on soft 17 instead of hits soft 17.

Craps was once a carnival game, - back in 1915, when Hazard was the main gambling dice game. Blackjack was once a carnival side game when Faro was the main stay card game.

What defines a carnival game is that it is a new game of different game play rules that exist in the table games pit as a novelity type game that may or may not become popular. Carnival games are Crazy 4 Poker, Deuces Wild, Zero, Rupert's Island Draw, Money Market, Let It Ride, Two-cards High, Wish card Poker, Bet you Luck, Texas Hold 'em Bonus, Rabbit Hunter, and the like.

Three card poker is no longer a carnival game, as it is now a main stay casino game offering with over 1,000 installs. Casino chains are expected to offer the game as a standard game offering, as opposed to "optionally". Three Card Poker is a mandatory game offering for the major casino chains; it must be offered, - just like craps or Pai Gow Poker or Blackjack or Roulette.

What defines a major casino game is that customers expect that game to be there, and that casinos consistently offer the game.
What defines a carnival game is that it is a novelty game that may or may not be present at a casino's table games pit, and is a side offering that is aside from the main stay table games. This is not a hard concept to grasp.

The major casino games and offerings are listed on the front page by name at casino game info sites such as wizard of odds, and the carnival games are lumped under "other," or under "more [casino games] odds and strategies click here....", and off of the main listing.

This is the general convention of "standard casino games" versus "carnival games" as it is used in and around the industry. This list changes slowly over the years, as some games become expected standards, and other games become optional side games that might not be offered.
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RonC
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January 22nd, 2012 at 3:59:00 PM permalink
Wouldn't the definition of a "carnival game" include games with higher house edges like Mississippi Stud, Three Card Poker (does "installs" determine carnival or not, or is it the high house edge that makes the difference?), Casino War, the Big Wheel, etc.???
Paigowdan
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January 22nd, 2012 at 4:04:20 PM permalink
House edge is irrelevant, although some carnival games have higher HA's. Some carnival games have low house edges; Two Cards High has a house edge of 1.3%. TCH is truly a carnival game, a well-playing carnival game that is very popular in South Korea.

Basically, the expression "carnival game" means "novelty side game" that is not a mainstay or standard offering at most casinos. That is exactly what the phrase "carnival game" means as it is used in the industry, that is it.

Game type AND installs determine the status. Your side game gets more than a Thousand installs - and casinos make it a standard, essentially a must-have offering, the game is now a mainstay. Three Card Poker hit this hallmark level. Joker's Wild (a small casino on the outskirts of Boulder Highway) has it, and it gets a ton of action. I walked in and saw it there in a six-table pit, and thought, "This thing is everywhere...." It is. Jokers Wild has craps, Roulette, Blackjack, - and three card poker.
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EvenBob
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January 22nd, 2012 at 4:16:12 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

EZ Pai Gow Poker isn't a carnival game.



How many indian casinos offer EZ Pai Gow? I've never
seen it in the midwest. From what I'm reading, anything
thats not roulette, BJ, craps or bac is considered a carnival
game in the industry.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
P90
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January 22nd, 2012 at 4:17:48 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

"Carnival games" simply means games "other than the common and standard casino games," which are Craps, Blackjack, Pai Gow Poker, Roulette, and Baccarat.


I thought PGP is still not quite out of the carnival category.
(Distinct from Pai Gow which is Asian.)

Quote: Paigowdan

Craps was once a carnival game, - back in 1915, when Hazard was the main gambling dice game.


But then craps is just Hazard with the Main permanently fixed at 7.
Quite similar to how modern baccarat devolved from Chemin de Fer.
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Paigowdan
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January 22nd, 2012 at 4:25:18 PM permalink
It is the major Pai Gow poker game in the San Diego area, and in Missouri casinos via Ameristar Group, and Lumiere Place Casinos. It's also in Council Bluffs, Iowa, and East Chicago, Illinois.

Carnival game = novelty side game that is an optional game for the table games pit.
versus:
Major Casino game = a game type that is commonly played and expected to be present, - and generally must be offered by a casino as a standard offering; Three Card Poker is a major casino game, along with Baccarat, Craps, Blackjack, Pai Gow Poker, and Roulette. These six games are the short-list of major casino games. You can indeed say that they are in every major casino.

Deuces Wild almost achieved this level, then had a sudden and very hard fall from grace ten years ago. Let it Ride and Carribean Stud also gave this status a shot. Three Card Poker made it. I can hear Barry Manilow sing: "Looks like you MADE it...."
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Tiltpoul
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January 22nd, 2012 at 4:27:20 PM permalink
Carnival games mean different things to different casinos. I think it depends on how the casino views certain games. If they require extensive training for a game (longer than a short session), it's no longer a carnival game. If they require no to minimal training (despite whether they SHOULD train more), then it's a carnival game.

Spanish 21 is often considered carnival, as it plays mostly like BJ and doesn't really require much more training than BJ. Most casinos treat Pai Gow Poker as a regular game, but I know a few casinos that treat it as a carnival game. How you can deal the game with minimal training, I'm still surprised, but there are a few houses that teach a crash course and expect dealers to get it. With the new cheating machines that set the house way on a screen, it basically could become a carnival game.

I would say there are five "non-carnival" games that every casino would agree with... Blackjack, Craps, Roulette, Baccarat and Pai Gow Tiles. MOST casinos would also add Pai Gow Poker and (the few that have it) Texas Shootout as non-carnival. Every other game would be considered carnival by most casinos... but again, not ALL, since some require training for every game.
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Paigowdan
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January 22nd, 2012 at 4:35:18 PM permalink
Quote: P90

I thought PGP is still not quite out of the carnival category.
(Distinct from Pai Gow which is Asian.)


Too many tables, too many markets, too much money, too much action, it's everywhere. Graduated a few years ago along with Three Card Poker.

Quote: P90

But then craps is just Hazard with the Main permanently fixed at 7.
Quite similar to how modern baccarat devolved from Chemin de Fer.


If you can say the rules are much different, then the game is much different. This is like saying Three Card Poker is just poker-room Texas Hold 'em variant: they share some concepts (poker rankings) but are very different games. It's the call of gaming industry opinion and usage that writes the sheet of music we play off of, in terms of "same type game" or "different type game."
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EvenBob
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January 22nd, 2012 at 4:37:55 PM permalink
Dan, its wishful thinking to call EZ a casino
mainstay and not a carnival game. A fraction of
casinos offer it, its way too new. Even Pai Gow itself
is considered a carnival game in some places. The
four big grandaddy games are still the head honcho's
in most casinos.

Does the Nugget in Vegas still offer EZ or did they
get rid of it? No casino would ever EVER get rid of
any of the big 4 games, its unthinkable. Maybe thats
how you distinguish a carnival game, it can come
and go.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
P90
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January 22nd, 2012 at 4:46:25 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Too many tables, too many markets, too much money, too much action, it's everywhere. Graduated a few years ago along with Three Card Poker.


Is money and action all that separates mainstay games from carnival games?
I can't attest to this, but I recall there existed some carnival games that were big hits in terms of action, then faded.
Longevity and stability is certainly a significant factor at least in terms of perception.

Quote: Paigowdan

If you can say the rules are much different, then the game is much different. This is like saying Three Card Poker is just poker-room Texas Hold 'em variant: they share some concepts (poker rankings) but are very different games.


That's not a fitting analogy really. If you are to replicate the change between Hazard and Craps, it would be like a form of Craps where you can't bet on Don't, but the Fire Bet is added.
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Paigowdan
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January 22nd, 2012 at 4:53:58 PM permalink
It isn't wishful thinking. If a game is adopted and accepted industry-wide as a main stay required offering, it is not a carnival game. Pai Gow Poker hit this status, along with Baccarat, then accept it. EZ is considered just a brand of the same Pai Gow Poker game, as EZ Baccarat is considered a brand of Baccarat, granted with proprietary features.

For that matter, Fortune Pai Gow from Shufflemaster, EZ Pai Gow of DEQ, and Emperor's Challenge from Galaxy are all brands of Pai Gow poker, each with their own proprietary features. It operates in exactly that way: here is OUR offering OF Pai Gow Poker.....It's like saying that only the GE light bulb is the real McCoy, - but the Phillips or Sylvania light bulbs are carnival light bulbs.

Now, if an Eight-card Pai Gow Poker variant with Full Poker on each side were to come to be, with different game-play and hand setting rules and all - that would be a carnival-like game variant.
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Tiltpoul
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January 22nd, 2012 at 4:55:37 PM permalink
Quote: P90

Is money and action all that separates mainstay games from carnival games?
I can't attest to this, but I recall there existed some carnival games that were big hits in terms of action, then faded.
Longevity and stability is certainly a significant factor at least in terms of perception.



I recall a thread I started that talked about the long-term viability of Three Card Poker. I noticed in the Midwest that the tables are disappearing. Vegas (and now AC) look to have a revival of the game, thanks to the 6-card Million Dollar Jackpot, but casinos that don't offer that bet seem to be losing the tables. Even TCP Progressive doesn't hold much ground anymore.

Caesars is pushing BIG TIME to get that $1 million payout all over. I was told that Iowa approved it, which is good, since they had a severe cutback on TCP tables in relation to the total number of tables. It's amazing that a 20% house edge bet can have that much of a hold on players...
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Tiltpoul
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January 22nd, 2012 at 4:57:25 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan


Now, if an Eight-card Pai Gow Poker variant with Full Poker on each side were to come to be, with different game-play and hand setting rules and all - that would be a carnival-like game variant.



Oops, Dan... a rare miss here. There IS a carnival game of Pai Gow... MINI PAI GOW. 6-cards, same BASIC idea, but house sets are much easier and it deals much faster. You can deal that game with very minimal training, and at Harrah's KC, there were dealers who dealt Mini, but had no clue on Pai Gow Poker.
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EvenBob
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January 22nd, 2012 at 4:57:51 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

It isn't wishful thinking. If a game is adopted and accepted industry-wide as a main stay



EZ is an offshoot game, just like EZ bac is. Its not a mainstay
game if you can get rid of it. Did Nugget get rid of EZ PG? Would
they ever get rid of craps or roulette?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Paigowdan
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January 22nd, 2012 at 5:01:02 PM permalink
Quote: P90

Is money and action all that separates mainstay games from carnival games?


Think of it as commonality: if the gaming industry itself says that "game 'x' is so common that it is a required game, then...it is a standard game, and not a carnival game.

Quote: P90

I can't attest to this, but I recall there existed some carnival games that were big hits in terms of action, then faded.
Longevity and stability is certainly a significant factor at least in terms of perception.


Yes. At one time Hazard and Faro were major casino games, and craps and blackjack were carnival side games.
The "Major Game" list changes over time. Think of it as "delisting..." - Fall off of the major game list, and you're a carnival game, than possibly an extinct game, like Faro.


Quote: P90

[Saying different game-play rules make for different games] That's not a fitting analogy really. If you are to replicate the change between Hazard and Craps, it would be like a form of Craps where you can't bet on Don't, but the Fire Bet is added.


That change is big enough to make it a distinctly different game. So is crapless craps. Crapless craps is a separate carnival game.

I work in the industry, and I SEE on table game FILL SHEETS the following:

FILL ORDER
Table:
Craps
Blackjack
Pai Gow Poker
Roulette
Baccarat
Three Card
OTHER (Carnival Game) list here_________________

The gaming industry sees the popularity and the required presence of certain games, and also sees the optional status of other games. They decide and they list - as common practice - and based on usage and popularity - what the major games are, and what carnival games are.
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DJTeddyBear
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January 22nd, 2012 at 5:05:32 PM permalink
Why the new games are called "Carnival" rather than "New" or "Novelty" comes from real carnivals and their midway.

The Wheel Of Fortune is an obvious descendant of that midway. As an extension, other "goofy" or introductory games are also categorized as carnival.

Of course, according to Dan's definition, the Wheel Of Fortune would be a standard casino game, not a carnival game.

Therefore, I think a better distinction is needed: Carnival games are those that do not attract serious gamblers. Feel free to not accept that definition.

---

Regarding EZ Pai Gow:

I'm not going to join the debate of whether or not it's still a carnival game.

However, considering the very slight change in rules, and that there is zero difference in strategy, for the purpose of defining it, I say it's acceptable to link EZ Pai Gow with regular Pai Gow Poker.
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Paigowdan
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January 22nd, 2012 at 5:11:45 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Why the new games are called "Carnival" rather than "New" or "Novelty" comes from real carnivals and their midway.

The Wheel Of Fortune is an obvious descendant of that midway. As an extension, other "goofy" or introductory games are also categorized as carnival

Of course, according to Dan's definition, the Wheel Of Fortune would be a standard casino game, not a carnival game.


No, it won't. Of course not. "Big Six" is fully one of the games that fell off of the major casino games list eons ago, like Faro and Hazard.

Never said otherwise, - and always stated that it was a curio of days gone by - if present at all! I mentioned that it is sometimes kept around as a momento or curio, to provide old-school atmosphere here and there...I never included it in any major casino list, and always indicated it was a relic.
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Paigowdan
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January 22nd, 2012 at 5:18:39 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

EZ is an offshoot game, just like EZ bac is. Its not a mainstay game if you can get rid of it. Did Nugget get rid of EZ PG?


No. As a matter of fact, no operator who had adopted the game discontinued it. That's quite a track record. And I assume you are more likely to say "Damn you Dan" rather than "Good for you Dan," and mean it. Since it is a brand of Pai Gow of pai Gow, I hope that Pai Gow poker in general continues to stay on the major casino games list.
Quote: EvenBob

Would they ever get rid of craps or roulette?


No. But they got rid of Zero and other carnival games.
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Paigowdan
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January 22nd, 2012 at 5:24:41 PM permalink
Quote: Tiltpoul

Oops, Dan... a rare miss here. There IS a carnival game of Pai Gow... MINI PAI GOW. 6-cards, same BASIC idea, but house sets are much easier and it deals much faster. You can deal that game with very minimal training, and at Harrah's KC, there were dealers who dealt Mini, but had no clue on Pai Gow Poker.


Not a rare miss. I am aware of mini-Pai Gow, and had discussed it as a carnival game variant at length. An eight-card or nine-card pai Gow variant would also be so different as to be a carnival game, like double-exposure blackjack is a carnival game BJ variant.
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P90
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January 22nd, 2012 at 5:27:53 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

That change is big enough to make it a distinctly different game. So is crapless craps. Crapless craps is a separate carnival game.


"Crapless craps" is a game with significantly different odds.
Craps is played the same way as Hazard, minus the option to make some high house edge bets with a main other than 7.
It's more like a Blackjack variant where you can't double on less than 9 or more than 11, can't surrender and can't split 5's and 10's.


Quote: Paigowdan

Craps
...
OTHER (Carnival Game) list here_________________


Not to be critical, but this list is more indicative of which games are most common in the casino and worth a separate checkbox, rather than a sign of judgement.

If the casino in question had 100 Let It Ride tables, I'm pretty sure Let It Ride would appear on the list as well.


Quote: Paigowdan

They decide and they list - as common practice - and based on usage and popularity - what the major games are, and what carnival games are.


I thought the players vote on that choice by throwing their wallets in the game's direction, while the casinos watch and strategically place their tables around to collect.
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Ibeatyouraces
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January 22nd, 2012 at 5:28:47 PM permalink
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Paigowdan
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January 22nd, 2012 at 5:31:02 PM permalink
Quote: P90

I thought the players vote on that choice by throwing their wallets in the game's direction, while the casinos watch and strategically place their tables around to collect.


Yes, but since casinos count the money, they make the lists and decide what to offer on the gaming floor, both as a "required major game," and as an optional "fill-in" carnival or side game.
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Paigowdan
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January 22nd, 2012 at 5:33:18 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

As far as I'm concerned, ANY casino game that isn't blackjack, craps, roulette, baccarat, slots or video poker is a carnival game. This includes, any bj variants, 3cp, UTH, THB, PG, PGP, CSP, LIR, etc. Obviously everyone will have different opinions.


Right. Not a problem, everyone has their own opinions.
But the casinos decide which games get onto the mainstay "short list" of must-offers, and optional side games list. Players vote with their feet, but the casinos tally these votes and draw up the lists.
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EvenBob
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January 22nd, 2012 at 5:35:31 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

ANY casino game that isn't blackjack, craps, roulette, baccarat, slots or video poker is a carnival game.



You have to draw the line somewhere. Any table game the
casino CANNOT get rid of is not a carnival game. If a game
is still around after 30 or 40 years, its a mainstay game. Until
then, its just a side attraction.
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teliot
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January 22nd, 2012 at 5:39:08 PM permalink
Any game where there is a fee paid to have the game placed is most certainly a "proprietary" game by definition. Surely there are carnival games that are not proprietary. It is a matter of opinion whether any particular proprietary game deserves the diminutive "carnival." Roger Snow, in particular, dislikes that term "carnival" for any of his games as it lessens the seriousness of his enterprise. I assume many designers feel likewise. For me, I make no distinction. Maybe if I created and sold a game, I too would object to it being called a "carnival" game.
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EvenBob
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January 22nd, 2012 at 5:44:21 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

No. As a matter of fact, no operator who had adopted the game discontinued it.



I just called the Nugget and was told the
reason its closed sometimes is when a
dealer calls in, its the table they don't
open because they're a dealer short.
Figure it out from there.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Ibeatyouraces
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January 22nd, 2012 at 5:46:56 PM permalink
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Paigowdan
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January 22nd, 2012 at 5:54:35 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I just called the Nugget and was told the
reason its closed sometimes is when a
dealer calls in, its the table they don't
open because they're a dealer short.
Figure it out from there.


Bob, I am fully aware and know of this about the situation at the Nugget. They have not pulled the game, but often have it closed. What the Hell.
I also heard - as well as personally witnessed myself on visits - that the dealers there dislike and believe that the game's lack of white ($1) chips from commission-free operations reduce their tip income, have it "in" for the game a little bit, and discourage the floor from opening the game. They also dislike the game's dragon side bet being right in front of the main bet, as it knocks out a dealer's toke spot area on the layout.
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January 22nd, 2012 at 6:00:58 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Bob, I am fully aware and know of this about the situation at the Nugget. They have not pulled the game, but often have it closed. What the Hell.
I also heard - as well as personally witnessed myself on visits - that the dealers there dislike and believe that the game's lack of white ($1) chips from commission-free operations reduce their tip income, have it "in" for the game a little bit, and discourage the floor from opening the game. They also dislike the game's dragon side bet being right in front of the main bet, as it knocks out a dealer's toke spot area on the layout.
I Know all about my game's operations at many sites, as would any game inventor.
Bob, I know that you would love nothing better than to see the game fail, and say "na-HA!!!" to me publicly on this board.
PM me, and I will send you a photo of myself, or an EZ pg layout image, so you can put it up on your dart board and have some fun.



Very interesting.... Does the casino track average tips at different games in any formal way? It seems to me when they empty the 'tip jar' it is just added to all the others from other tables.
EvenBob
EvenBob
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January 22nd, 2012 at 6:09:39 PM permalink
edited
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
sunrise089
sunrise089
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January 22nd, 2012 at 6:10:20 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

As far as I'm concerned, ANY casino game that isn't blackjack, craps, roulette, baccarat, slots or video poker is a carnival game. This includes, any bj variants, 3cp, UTH, THB, PG, PGP, CSP, LIR, etc. Obviously everyone will have different opinions.

I agree with this 100%. I note that most other games have some or most of these carnival-like characteristics: 1) Simple to install and teach, 2) high payoff possibilities, 3) high house edges, 4) proprietary ownership and licensing fees. It's not coincidental that these characteristics are shared by slot machines.
DJTeddyBear
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January 22nd, 2012 at 6:12:07 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

No, it won't. Of course not. "Big Six" is fully one of the games that fell off of the major casino games list eons ago, like Faro and Hazard.
Never said otherwise, - and always stated that it was a curio of days gone by - if present at all! I mentioned that it is sometimes kept around as a momento or curio, to provide old-school atmosphere here and there...I never included it in any major casino list, and always indicated it was a relic.

I stand corrected.

I was basing my interpretation upon the "long established" track record of Big Six.

I'm VERY glad that we can agree that it's a carnival game. :)
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
EvenBob
EvenBob
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January 22nd, 2012 at 6:12:59 PM permalink
Quote: sunrise089

4) proprietary ownership and licensing fees. It's not coincidental that these characteristics are shared by slot machines.



Thats an extremely good point, so obvious I
didn't even think about it. If a game isn't in
the public domain, its not a mainstay game.

Duh...
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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January 22nd, 2012 at 6:13:16 PM permalink
It's amazing.
When asked for a description of what a carnival game is, and working in the industry both in table games pit operations and tabe game design, I offer the description of it, as well as the opposite term, a "major game" - as used and practiced in the gaming industry by both workers and players as a general convention. Sorry to see all the hair splitting and "Na-HA! you're wrong - and I hope you or your game dies" kind of sentiment. WTF.

Anyway:
1. A major game is a standard game offering that casinos are expected to offer in general. They are consistently offered and patronized, and are well known. The list is basically six common and popular games: Craps, Blackjack, Pai Gow Poker, Roulette, Three Card Poker, and Baccarat, - regardless of brand. License fees are not an issue if the game makes money. It is better to pay $500 a month in license fees to earn an additional $5000, than to use a less popular version or game and take in less profit.

2. Carnival games are optional side games that fill out a table games pit offerings, are less well-known as mainstays, and include such games as Decuces Wild, Two Cards High, Zero, Rupert's island draw, Texas Hold 'em Bonus, and the like.

3. The list changes slowly over time. Some games, like Pai Gow Poker and Three Card Poker, were not on the list 20 years ago, but are considered main casino games now.

4. We all have our opinions of what we like to see, and how we would like things to be. The list of major games and the carnival games games are decided by casino operators based on players' play and acceptance (patronage) of these games.

5. People pretty much follow what is done, and it is generally accepted by consensus, with standard "Forum quibbling" debate about it all a normal part of the process.

6. Game inventors dislike the term "Carnival game" simply because it shows that most of us had not hit the Three Card Poker achievement of getting on that list as we would like to see.

I have some game inventions in the pipeline that are truly carnival games, and some may make it, and some might not. It's all a gamble that is a part of this work effort.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
P90
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January 22nd, 2012 at 6:13:17 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

As far as I'm concerned, ANY casino game that isn't blackjack, craps, roulette, baccarat, slots or video poker is a carnival game.

You forgot poker. I mean the real deal.

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes, but since casinos count the money, they make the lists and decide what to offer on the gaming floor, both as a "required major game," and as an optional "fill-in" carnival or side game.


This is a question of definition, and such questions, by definition, can not be resolved. They can be agreed upon if there is a central authority on the subject (such as ISO or ANSI), but individual casinos are not such an authority, since usage differs and the term is widely used by players as well.


I personally consider 3CP and PGP (and followed by LIR and some others) to be currently the most successful of carnival games. Not extraordinary, just the most successful. However the impression I have is that they are gathering from the rest of carnival game audience, draw in variety players, rather that being games that people take up gambling for.

There is no culture associated with PGP and 3CP. Craps has loud crowds, virgins blessing the dice and bettors on fire, Blackjack has counting legends and every next player an armchair counter (hated as counters are, BJ would not be much without them), Roulette has hundreds of systems, life savings bet on red, historical glamor, Baccarat has players tracking scores, ripping cards up and dancing on the table. With PGP, 3CP, LIR - you come in, you play, you go home.

Like you said, every game has its lifespan. But the lifespan of mainstays is measured in generations, the lifespan of carnival games in years.
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EvenBob
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January 22nd, 2012 at 6:19:00 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan


Bob, I know that you would love nothing better than to see the game fail,



He also asked me if I liked the game and I said
its all I play. He asked me why and I said no commission,
of course. He said he likes that about it also. So much
for your failure theory.. He said the game is usually open
from noon to 2am if they have a dealer for it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
DJTeddyBear
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January 22nd, 2012 at 6:26:10 PM permalink
Quote: P90

You forgot poker. I mean the real deal.

Unless I'm mistaken, poker is neither.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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January 22nd, 2012 at 6:29:27 PM permalink
Using license fees as the benchmark is wrong.

Pai Gow Poker was never patented, so it's inventor never got a dime in fees.

There are several games that are considered mainstream that still incur fees.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
EvenBob
EvenBob
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January 22nd, 2012 at 6:35:18 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

There are several games that are considered mainstream that still incur fees.



Like what?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Paigowdan
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January 22nd, 2012 at 6:54:24 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Using license fees as the benchmark is wrong.

Pai Gow Poker was never patented, so it's inventor never got a dime in fees.

There are several games that are considered mainstream that still incur fees.


Three Card Poker? - huge fees - and worth every penny.
Variants or brands of non-patented games can be patented as to specific added features.
Again, if the overall profit versus cost is good, then that decides.
Good games get action. 3CP works. EZ pg, so far, so good.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
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January 22nd, 2012 at 8:19:05 PM permalink
Elliot Jacobson says:

"Also, variations of existing names are a good choice: "EZ Pai Gow" and "Three Card Blackjack" are compelling names. The name is just about as important as the rest of the game put together -- you are creating a brand."

With these new carnival games, you're creating a brand,
you're not lumped together with the games you're named
after. You have to pass the test of longevity before you're
considered a mainstay game. EZ Bac was in a local casino
for exactly 3 months before the Asian boycott made them
pull it. It was its own brand, just because it had 'baccarat'
attached to it didn't mean it got a free ride.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
EvenBob
EvenBob
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January 22nd, 2012 at 8:32:37 PM permalink
EZ Pai Gow Poker Player Wins More Than $120,000 at Barona Resort & Casino

Is this for real or just hype to advertise a casino.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
s2dbaker
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January 22nd, 2012 at 8:37:53 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Elliot Jacobson says:

"Also, variations of existing names are a good choice: "EZ Pai Gow" and "Three Card Blackjack" are compelling names. The name is just about as important as the rest of the game put together -- you are creating a brand."

So what do you think of the name 'Cameltoe Poker'?
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
Paigowdan
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January 22nd, 2012 at 9:24:51 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

EZ Pai Gow Poker Player Wins More Than $120,000 at Barona Resort & Casino

Is this for real or just hype to advertise a casino.


It's real. Another player hit for $170,000 at the Cannery in Vegas.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
P90
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January 23rd, 2012 at 2:33:10 AM permalink
A Roulette, Blackjack or Baccarat player would have to bet that much per hand to be mentioned in a press report...

BTW, while at that, are there any notable 3CP or PGP very high limit tables (permanent)?
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fremont4ever
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January 23rd, 2012 at 3:40:03 AM permalink
I thought I knew what carnival games were, but this thread has helped me change my thinking. What of the other, other games people play in casinos - like poker, the sports/race book, keno, and bingo? I would say set them aside and not evaluate them on this scale.

As for the current "big four" (or five, or six, or seven) casino games being immutable, I say don't be silly. Faro used to be popular back when the world was in black and white. Variation games come and go all the time, if not their parents. I think (Dan and pacomartin would have the data to back me up, if they like) both Caribbean Stud and Let It Ride both had more installed tables 10-20 years ago than Three Card Poker does now. What does that say of the status of CSP and LIR then and now? And not all casinos have baccarat, or craps, or roulette. Some are even slots only, but never mind them. Perhaps some of them had one of the "mainstay" games at one time or another, but yanked them for the usual reasons. Are they any less of a casino because they did this?
Paigowdan
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January 23rd, 2012 at 4:21:59 AM permalink
The big three of the list are Blackjack, Craps and Roulette; they have been constants at least since 1960.
Don't feel that it is static - it is not, it is more "organic" but slow moving....
Baccarat has the fewest tables on the list, but in terms of revenue - total table drop - is huge, dollar-wise, and very common.
Pai Gow Poker and Three card poker really got on the list after 2000, they just kept on increasing market share and table installs and performing well.
-----------------
CSP and LIR were almost mainstays, too - essentially "Super" Carnival games that faded around 2000 as PGP and 3CP just kept increasing. CSP and LIR burnt out players a bit - either feast or famine. They would either chew through a player's buy in too quickly, or it would just dump $40,000 in a night on the casino operator. Between players getting burn-out and the casinos getting "spooked," CSP and LIR faded steadily. Also replacing out CSP and LIR were the advances in Crazy 4 poker, Four card poker, and Ultimate Texas Hold 'em, which seem to work very well with both steady players and casino confidence in them.
---
Deuces Wild was in 50% of Las Vegas Casinos in 2001, - then it just imploded. It was expensive to play - 4 units to play out a hand in a feast or famine fashion also. People just turned on that game, along with CSP and LIR for PGP, 3CP, and the newer 4-card poker games, BJ Switch, and UTH. However, Galaxy Gaming, which bought Deuces Wild, did a GREAT job in re-tooling that game, it was a resurrection of sorts: Players can now check on the PLAY bet (2nd bet), and bet 1 unit instead of 2 if they checked on the play bet, making the game much more forgiving, while still allowing a full 4-unit bet if you get dealt a monster from the start. See New Deuces Wild.

It would be interesting to see a chart of the above mentioned games' ascendancy stats in a line graph over time. One chart for $ Revenue, the other for total installs.
- Blackjack, craps, and Roulette holding fairly stead for 50 years at the top, with slight declines.
- CSP and LIR rising onto the chart 1990's, then getting displaced from their steady decline by the rising PGP and 3CP by 2005 as they steadily rose up.
- Deuces Wild making a quick arc, peaking around 2001 and gone. Halley's comet pays a visit. Blip.
- a combined shufflemaster line of Crazy 4 Poker, BJ Switch, 4 Card Poker, and UTH rising and holding, the steady background radiation of the carnival games.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

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