Etiquette Question - Mispay on Ultimate Texas Hold'em

Hello all,
Las night I was playing Ultimate Texas Hold'em at a local casino in Kansas City. I was having an incredible run so I wasn't paying as close attention as a I probably should have.
The guy sitting next to me really had no idea what he was doing, but he ended up with a two pair of queen x. there was a queen and x on the board. For some reason, the dealer stated there was a full house and payed as such. I realized it as the guy was taking the chips from the table and the dealer was scooping up the cards that he in fact only had a two pair.
What should you do in that situation? Do you say something? It has bothered me since last night. Never had that happen before so I just wanted to hear peoples opinions.

The dealer has a job for a reason.

If it is something so egregious that you feel you should say something, than go ahead. After all, the rules say he should have lost, and he shouldn't be upset just because another player says something. You put your money on the line by choice, and you agree to the rules beforehand. Whether he did it on purpose or not is another conversation. That doesn't matter.

I think overall, most people wouldn't say anything, because they would rather see someone get money for a dealer's mistake. I think the chances of someone saying something goes up proportionally to the amount of the payoff. Higher payoff, higher probability someone will speak up.

In the end, I wouldn't beat yourself up about it. It isn't your job to make sure everyone is paid correctly. That is why the casino pays for wages and training for their dealers. Their bad, not yours.

In this scenario, I would feel like a total asshat for saying something and denying someone of a payout. The only time I might say something is if I was receiving constant flak in a game like Let it Ride for not playing the bonus bet/3 Card side bet from that person and they just started making me mad. In that situation, I would probably rat them out, but in general I keep my mouth shut.

Exactly what I would expect most people to do.

Duckman's response is going to be characteristic of the general public. Because it is ultimately the DEALER's responsibility. Not any of the players. What if you are playing some complex table game, and don't understand all of the rules. You don't know all the time if you should be getting paid or not. If the dealer pushes chips your way, how are you to know the difference? Duckman is right. Don't sweat it.

Nareed's 19th Law of Las Vegas:

Quote:

20) Do not EVER correct a dealer's mistake in favor of another player. You'll infuriate the player, and you won't get more than a nod from the casino (if that much). This law is null if you're attracted to the dealer and keep your brains and your gametes in the same body part.

Quote: Nareed

Nareed's 19th Law of Las Vegas:

Why does it have a 20 next to it? :)

It's a good law. But someone should never get "infuriated" by a called mistake. Play the game. Be a winner, not a whiner.

Quote: duckmankilla

In this scenario, I would feel like a total asshat for saying something and denying someone of a payout. The only time I might say something is if I was receiving constant flak in a game like Let it Ride for not playing the bonus bet/3 Card side bet from that person and they just started making me mad. In that situation, I would probably rat them out, but in general I keep my mouth shut.

In this situation, I'd feel like a total asshat for keeping shut and rubber-stamping that wrong - doesn't matter which direction the error is - except for the personal greed or disinterest in justifying it, "if it ain't me getting shortchanged." It's the same event, except that "it's okay if I or another else screws 'the casino'/'someone else'/'not me.'"

As for the dealer getting paid, the dealer gets paid the same salary if the error's the other way, too, but somehow that's not okay then. Mistakes happen, to err is human.

The player didn't win that money, plain and simple, and stopping an error can help a dealer trainee keep a job they'd grow into. Remember your first day at whatever job.

I look at it this way: clean money is earned or won without error. Dirty money is accepted when you know it wasn't won or earned, but remain silent in knowledge that it didn't add up.
You're a participant at the table, and can't truly say "Well, I'm not here, not my business," when you would the other way around, if it were "me." And you can't complain then if game rules go less favorable, to cover losses, whatever the cause.

20) Do not EVER correct a dealer's mistake in favor of another player. You'll infuriate the player, and you won't get more than a nod from the casino (if that much). This law is null if you're attracted to the dealer and keep your brains and your gametes in the same body part.

This is outstanding. I especially like the null and void clause if the dealer is attractive. This reminds me of my favorite show at the moment, How I Met Your Mother, where Barney consistently reminds everyone that he only has one rule. The "one rule" always changes but it invariably has to do with attractive women and his endeavors to sleep with them. After telling his friends his "one rule" for accomplishing this feat, he always lists the exception to his rule, which remains the same, and is "unless she's hot".

For example, one of Barney's many "one rule" scenarios:

"Never sleep with a girl with a hook for a hand... unless she's hot."

Haha total derailing of the topic, but Nareed made me think of my love for this show.

Quote: Paigowdan

In this situation, I'd feel like a total asshat for keeping shut and rubber-stamping that wrong - doesn't matter which direction the error is - except for the personal greed or disinterest in justifying it, "if it ain't me getting shortchanged." It's the same event, except that "it's okay if I or another else screws 'the casino'/'someone else'/'not me.'"

As for the dealer getting paid, the dealer gets paid the same salary if the error's the other way, too, but somehow that's not okay then. Mistakes happen, to err is human.

The player didn't win that money, plain and simple, and stopping an error can help a dealer trainee keep a job they'd grow into. Remember your first day at whatever job.

I look at it this way: clean money is earned or won without error. Dirty money is accepted when you know it wasn't won or earned, but remain silent in knowledge that it didn't add up.
You're a participant at the table, and can't truly say "Well, I'm not here, not my business," when you would the other way around, if it were "me." And you can't complain then if game rules go less favorable, to cover losses, whatever the cause.

To get back on topic, I really dont think failing to speak up for a single mispay is going to account for worse game rules. For the few mispays that I witness in a player's favor, I'm sure there are short-pays in the other direction, so these tiny errors are minor accounting errors in my eyes. To deny a player a $45 win instead of a $30 in the case of a Let it Ride 3 of a kind vs. 2 pair really doesn't make sense to me. Yes, I agree that players will counter short-pays much more often than they will argue overpays but from my own experience, I really don't think these happen enough to justify a casino instituting worse rules for the player.

We are talking about million and billion dollar revenue industries. Is that $15 that I watched another player earn going to destroy the game that I enjoy playing? In my opinion, no.

It's a totality of the circumstances judgment call, made in the heat of the moment.

The general rule, as Nareed says, is to not correct. That said, I have corrected in the past for a number of reasons, including:

(1) The dealer is hot. (Barney's exception.)
(2) The dealer is obviously inexperienced, well-intentioned, and trying to learn the game.
(3) The player getting the benefit of the error is an asshole.
(4) Just the general mood of the table, and timing issues.

Of course, I will always correct an error made in the house's favor, no matter which player is affected.

20, 21, 22, etc.) Correct an error if you can, report a crime if you can, fix broken window if you can, etc. True, most people certainly care little of their own personal integrity, and I say this as a dealer. See something, even take something not rightfully yours, and I Know Nothing.

You don't fix an error to get thanked by the dealer, or by Madam X, or whoever. You fix an error for fixing an error, doing the right thing, or not be an accomplice to an error or a misdeed through knowledge and silence.

Infuriate a player - for taking money that he didn't legitately win? Tell him he didn't win it, he just took it knowing full well, now did he now; he had two pairs, not a full house, true? Tell him you'd speak up to if he's the one shortchanged the next time.

Not my job? True, but remember that the next time you get the short end of the stick in one way or another, and watch people who know the real deal not care when it's you. Witness saw a hit and run on your car, and don't want to be bothered with you in writing a statement? Rememebr that the next time you see something and do nothing - not my job. Cheat on your taxes? That's fine. IRS shortchanged you? Not fine.

Doesn't matter who was shortchanged - matters if it a shortchanging occurs.

"Who" only matters - if it's you. And people will openly tell you this fact.

Quote: duckmankilla

This is outstanding.

Thank you.

The whole list is here. Right now it's the last post on the page. It should answer all questions, too ;) It does answer the numbering questions.

Quote:

This reminds me of my favorite show at the moment, How I Met Your Mother, where Barney consistently reminds everyone that he only has one rule.

I kind of like that show. It's too bad the channel that carries it down here can's pick a decent time to show it. You'd think from their scheduling it's an old, failed show nobody likes. Seriously, it's on at 7:30 am on weekdays, and sometimes at 3:30 am on weekedns. I do mean a.m.

Quote: duckmankilla

To get back on topic, I really dont think failing to speak up for a single mispay is going to account for worse game rules. For the few mispays that I witness in a player's favor, I'm sure there are short-pays in the other direction, so these tiny errors are minor accounting errors in my eyes. To deny a player a $45 win instead of a $30 in the case of a Let it Ride 3 of a kind vs. 2 pair really doesn't make sense to me. Yes, I agree that players will counter short-pays much more often than they will argue overpays but from my own experience, I really don't think these happen enough to justify a casino instituting worse rules for the player.

Actually, they may, and it increases the costs to all gamblers. Also realize that you might help them solve a problem, or help a dealer. If everyone reduced the cost of ANY entertainment operation in general, the prices/HA would come down, due to allowing them to be competitive, increased efficiency, better upkeep that I enjoy, etc. Times this a gazillion customers, it adds up.

SURE, the casinos, IRS, Regency Cinemas, what have you, all make a lot of money, but passing savings on instead of costs on is fine with me, too. I'd like an alert for, or concerning MY business from someone who saw something, and as much smaller as my business is. I see how it helps. Certainly if someone was getting extra proceeds from my business and said nothing, just pocketing the cash. I look at it that way.

Quote: duckmankilla

We are talking about million and billion dollar revenue industries. Is that $15 that I watched another player earn going to destroy the game that I enjoy playing? In my opinion, no.

Times a million, yes, it'll drag it down.
The IRS is the SINGLE largest revenue income receiver on the planet. We're talking Trillions. Can you tell them, "I don't wish to pay you, - because I think you have enough. But I don't think that I do. You understand my logic here." Actually, they would understand perfectly.

And, Would you tell them if they shorted you?

You see, it's not different because "it's the casino, and they have enough," or..."it's the IRS, and they have enough."
It's different only if it's ME.

I guess I should clarify that the dealer is someone that I almost always interact with when I am there. He is one of the nicer dealers at a place where apparently not interacting with the players is a standard. Just felt bad if he was to get in serious trouble. I have been misplayed before and I always point it out. I don't want the bad karma to be hanging around. But in this case, the guy played the money back and then some because he didn't know what he was doing anyways.
And thanks for everyones opinions. Keep them coming.

Quote: Paigowdan

You don't fix an error to get thanked by the dealer, or by Madam X, or whoever. You fix an error for fixing an error, doing the right thing, or not be an accomplice to an error or a misdeed through knowledge and silence.

Infuriate a player - for taking money that he didn't legitately win? Tell him he didn't win it, he just took it knowing full well, now did he now; he had two pairs, not a full house, true? Tell him you'd speak up to if he's the one shortchanged the next time.

Exactly. Re read the above two times.

Quote: Nareed

It does answer the numbering questions.

Now I see. Cool!

Quote: Paigowdan

You fix an error for fixing an error, doing the right thing, or not be an accomplice to an error or a misdeed through knowledge and silence.

Quote: Paigowdan

Infuriate a player - for taking money that he didn't legitately win?

Legitimately.

Quote: Paigowdan

Tell him he didn't win it, he just took it knowing full well, now did he now;

Only one needed.

Quote: Paigowdan

Tell him you'd speak up to if he's the one shortchanged the next time.

Either "you'd speak up", or "too", not "to".

Quote: Paigowdan

Rememebr that the next time

Remember.

Quote: Paigowdan

Doesn't matter who was shortchanged - matters if it a shortchanging occurs.

Either no "it", or "if it is a shortchanging that occurs".

Quote: Paigowdan

"Who" only matters - if it's you.

No dash needed.





How did that feel?

deleted

lol....

Speechless. (But not).

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Yesterday at BJ, a guy was short paid by $20 on a $45 bet. The dealer didn't see the green on the bottom and only I saw the mispay. I kept my mouth shut. I am not going to help players or dealers nor do I care about a dealer losing his job.

Hey it's your choice. All it does is say something about your decisions. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote: Paigowdan

Actually, they may, and it increases the costs to all gamblers. Also realize that you might help them solve a problem, or help a dealer. If everyone reduced the cost of ANY entertainment operation in general, the prices/HA would come down, due to allowing them to be competitive, increased efficiency, better upkeep that I enjoy, etc. Times this a gazillion customers, it adds up.

Yeah, but this doesn't happen times a gazillion customers. Mispays in my experience are few and far between. If i see a dealer paying 4 to 1 when they should be paying 3 to 1 and they do it a couple of times, that's a different story where I can see that my experience can take a hit in the future. I just dont see mispays affecting the players in a capacity anywhere near the threshold of making a dent in casino revenue or affecting real-life gameplay. I'm not comparing this to the IRS, nor am i saying that the casinos don't deserve the money because "they have enough", I just dont see a minor error like this marking the downfall of my game of choice.

I enjoy the cameraderie at a table. It's one of the main reasons I play. I can't imagine anything turning a table 'sour' quicker than telling the dealer to take money away from a player, regardless of the circumstances that lead the dealer to give the player the money. By the way, just last week I saw a car not come to a complete stop at a stop sign. I am embarassed to say I forgot to call the authorities and report this incident.

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Quote: P90

[quibbling about typos]How did that feel?

It felt fine, in the sense that you were avoiding valid arguments and responses by quibbling about minor typos as a Red Herring.
If arguments reduce you to nothing more than a spell check quibbler, then you've lost. It's like saying, "well, your shoes are ugly, then," which may the case with me also, as I have little GQ style, too, for that matter. I'll go and fix the typos pointed out, thanks.

But seriously:
Theft loses, excessive AP loses, accepting illegitimate money in a one-way direction (and condoning a known mispay is illegitimate, whereas accepting an unknown mispay is innocent) and all this are not just ethically wrong but costly: it raises our playing costs - which we refuse to see how that works, - only to complain about that here - as we advocate the very practices which help invoke these bad conditions. We'll go to any length to justify or deny it, - even using a typo to falsify an argument, instead of connecting the distasteful dots.

The ethical arguments especially mean nothing to gamblers; apparently, here's a sample:

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

The casino and employees are the enemy when I walk in and I will not help or hurt them unless it affects me or my interests.

Huh? Is the waiter your enemy at the restaurant? Is the ticket taker or Film distributor your enemy when you walk into a movie theater?

-
As a dealer, I see that a lot of people get their juice not from the play of the cards or from using best poker strategy, but from attempting to seek a thrill by what petty crime or dirty manuever they can get away with glee: capping bets, knowingly accepting overpays with joy and silence, etc., justifying by the arbitrary position that the casino is the enemy. When that replaces the gambling, we all pay, and we all are guilty.

I don't think many of us get this or want to. It'll change gambling for us.
Me, I'm happy to look for a Royal, or a long roll, and sometimes get that.
For some, that's not enough, or the reason for being there.

As others have said, it's going to kill the mood at the table, and you're going to want to get up when the person next to you is pissed at you.

You shouldn't care about the transaction between the dealer and the player, it's none of your business.

If you want to correct your own mispays, that's fine.

If you're at McDonalds, and the person before you is charged $.49 for a hamburger instead of the posted price of $.99, are you going to say something?

And what pisses me off most about Paigowdan, is that he sees no difference between capping bets, and not correcting a dealer's mistake. Anyone who doesn't correct a dealer's mistake is a cheater. If I happen to see the dealer has an Ace on 3 card poker, even if I wasn't looking for it, and I have a King, I need to call my 3 card bet, because if I didn't see the Ace, I would have. And if I don't, I'm a cheater.

Quote: SOOPOO

I enjoy the cameraderie at a table. It's one of the main reasons I play. I can't imagine anything turning a table 'sour' quicker than telling the dealer to take money away from a player, regardless of the circumstances that lead the dealer to give the player the money. By the way, just last week I saw a car not come to a complete stop at a stop sign. I am embarassed to say I forgot to call the authorities and report this incident.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying I actually believe many people won't call the authorities for something that actually costs us, that adds up, like witnessing a hit and run or property damage. "It wasn't me, don't want to be involved..." is the real attitude I'm getting at.

And if you have cameraderie with people who take money that isn't theirs by the true result of the game's action, or would have a problem returning dirty money when pointed out, you're seeking cameraderie with not a great class of people, IMO.
I don't always have cameraderie "Joe X." at the tables, only sometimes. many are fine, many are not. Mixed bag. I don't come in with them, I don't leave with them, and while I get along with them, I'll mention a situation if it comes up. Usually there's no resentment, sometimes there is, and that's about it.

Quote: FinsRule

And what pisses me off most about Paigowdan, is that he sees no difference between capping bets, and not correcting a dealer's mistake. Anyone who doesn't correct a dealer's mistake is a cheater.

yes I do. I do indeed.
Whoever takes the known dirty money, AND who could have done otherwise (such as help fix a dealer's mistake), is the question here. please see that difference versus a dealer error of no consequence. It's the taking of the known wrong money with the dealer's mistake that trips people up, not pointing out a dealer's mistake of no consequence. So, Finsrule, you can now be un-pissed off about me, because it's the known wrong money issue via an error that's the issue, not an error of no real effect.

for that matter, if you know a dealer also underpaid a player and said nothing, you're the same say.
I'm saying it's the same event: knowingly taking the wrong money - and saying or acting like that's okay. THAT's different, you see.

Many times a dealer makes a mistake that has no effect: a hand setting that would have pushed either way. I'll mention that too, to get the dealer sharper, but that has no ethical issues to debate with that.

Quote: FinsRule

If I happen to see the dealer has an Ace on 3 card poker, even if I wasn't looking for it, and I have a King, I need to call my 3 card bet, because if I didn't see the Ace, I would have. And if I don't, I'm a cheater.

I call the hand on principal, as I would have called it otherwise.
I'm saying if you take, or condone the taking of known "wrong" money at a casino, - anywhere, really - you've got the stuff of a cheater. Many people do. And that you're in a LOT of company. It if bothers you good, if it doesn't bother you, good, as no surprise here, and you're just like most people. But be aware of it.

Quote: FinsRule

If you're at McDonalds, and the person before you is charged $.49 for a hamburger instead of the posted price of $.99, are you going to say something?

Yeah, I might. Depends if it's in East L.A., or on 5th Avenue.
I believe most people here would simply say "Ma'am, you undercharged me," doing it themselves, - seeing a McDonald's clerk instead of the enemy dealer.

deleted

Do you go to a casino seriously expecting to win money, - or do you go to a casino as an entertainment outlet?
Does the analogy work now?

When I play at a casino, or at a poker game, my opponents are simply participants in a gambling game. Players aren't the enemy, dealers aren't the enemy, you're participants in a game that has money on the line. If that makes you mortal enemies, that's you, and a lot of others too. Poker games I play with friends, and I don't keep people who cheat me in poker as friends. To me they're participants with me at a game of chance, of all things. That's what I think it is, that's what it is. I mean, when you play a competitive game with someone, with or without money on the line, and you lose, do you shake his hand or do you shoot him?

You win, you recieve money; you lose, you pay money. Receiving and giving money - or participating in these transactions - shouldn't make you view the other party as somehow an enemy.
Your boss pays you money in that case; is he the enemy? The ticket clerk at the movies house takes your money; is she the enemy? If you argue that the movie clerk provide such things as tangible entertainment, well then, so does the casino, which is why people go to the casino, for fun, for entertainment. if they go to the casino really expecting and counting on it as concrete income, wow.....

Quote: IBYA

I dont condone cheating by ANYONE and if I see THAT specifically, I report it.

Excellent - spot on! Exactly my point.

The responses in this thread amaze me. I guess there are a lot more narcs in here than I ever thought.

I love how you say it's the ethical thing to do. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Casinos are the most unethical businesses out there! Letting people who are drunk off their asses feeding bills into slot machines. Screwing the players over any and every chance they get. Hell, the view of counters and AP's is that they are cheaters when they clearly aren't.

Since when is it the player's responsibility to train the dealers? The player is responsible to make sure his pay out isn't short. It is also the dealer's job to run the game properly and pay it out properly. If the dealer is poorly trained or over paying the players, who's fault is it? The casino. They should be paying more close attention.

You guys make it out like the casinos are watching a counter's every move and are completely justifies in exiting them for using their brain. They are so onto every advantage player's action and are the smartest people out there. But they are incompetent when it comes to monitoring their dealers, training them, and watching payouts? And it is now my responsibility to help out the casino that already has the house edge?

If the dealer shorts a player, I'd say something. If the dealer over pays the player, that's not my problem it's the casino's. Train your staff properly or STFU. BTW, if you do say something about an overpay regarding another player, I hope that player follows you outside. You have no idea about another player's financial status or their situation. It's none of your damn business. The whole notion of you doing the right thing by costing another player money is retarded.

Quote: MarieBicurie

The responses in this thread amaze me. I guess there are a lot more narcs in here than I ever thought.

I love how you say it's the ethical thing to do. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Casinos are the most unethical businesses out there!

1. Open Value judgement. Even the IRS was my friend when it collected the money that paid for my salary when I was the service, and for my late uncle when he worked for the U.S. State Department. I stopped looking at them as an enemy, followed by a necessary evil, then to just a necessity.

Quote: MarieBicurie

Letting people who are drunk off their asses feeding bills into slot machines.

And sober ones. And winners. Believe me, casinos are so popular that people are demanding that they pop up seemingly everwhere. And they go.

Quote: MarieBicuir

Screwing the players over any and every chance they get.

You now sound like dealers talking about players. You have become the enemy. All P.O.V. here. Believe me, dealers aren't the shot takers, and management seems to give every benefit of the doubt to shot takers. Customer Service #1.

Quote: MarieBicurie

Hell, the view of counters and AP's is that they are cheaters when they clearly aren't.

Well, not cheaters, but they ARE:
1. breaking house rules and casino ground rules 100% knowingly, and not giving a damn, and;
2. Driving up costs that all players carry.
3. people even justify downright cheating a casino business or the government, (more power to them!) - but it's an outrage when MY business gets hit with theft and its costs.

Quote: MarieBicurie

Since when is it the player's responsibility to train the dealers?

Not saying that, so please get that. I'm saying it's arguably within a player's ethical ability to knowingly refuse "wrong money" in ANY direction (read: both directions), as just wrong. A real ethical challenge for many, inside or outside a casino, and often vigorously and emotionally rationalized or jusitified.

Quote: marieBicurie

The player is responsible to make sure his pay out isn't short.

No, it's the dealer's job, but we're all human, so please don't confuse incompetence or training periods or inexperience with ill-intent. believe me, it's not dealer's money, and he/she is not biased, just wants to get the game right, but can't always. Experienced players usually know the game they're playing, but often don't know or care from knowing right from wrong, if easy or wrong money is a possibility.

Quote: MarieBicurie

It is also the dealer's job to run the game properly and pay it out properly. If the dealer is poorly trained or over paying the players, who's fault is it? The casino. They should be paying more close attention.

1. People are human and are doing what they can. If it's unnoticed and gets by, then yes, the casino/dealer/floor supervisor is indeed at fault, and if later caught by surveillance after the fact, they may get fired for the mistake. neither say they're super human, nor complete dolts.
2. but if a mistake is correctly pointed out, and the real situation and result is clear and the result known, then player should not protest money he didn't legitemately win, and is responsible for returning it, or agreeing to the truth of ther matter once pointed out. Any dealer error - or player's cheating - does not make any known ill-gotten money "theirs," - a surprisingly hard concept to sometimes get across to gamblers.

Quote: marieBiCurie

You guys make it out like the casinos are watching a counter's every move and are completely justifies in exiting them for using their brain. They are so onto every advantage player's action and are the smartest people out there.

Huh? We all human, with varying level of competence, and subject to bad days like in any field or discipline. While we'd all prefer to think that we're the best in what we do, utterly flawless, the fact of the matter is that all people make mistakes at varying times. you've seen P90 ride my ass over typos. Believe me, I do NOT think pit crews are the smartest people out there by a LONG shot. I'm leary of doctors and Lawyers and Politicians and government workers and all that in the real world, too; I've seen so-called various professionals in all fields with their heads in their asses and their ethics in serious question. In every field, we've all seen it, no business is different. Hopefully, the dealers and floor are experienced and fair, and will stay with a place that needs them. Moreso, not playing by the rules, spending any life efforts on casino cheating schemes, and the like, are NOT "using the brain," - not by a long shot.

Quote: marieBicurie

But they are incompetent when it comes to monitoring their dealers, training them, and watching payouts?

Sometimes, yes, unfortunately. I would love to live in a perfect world.

Quote: MarieBiCurie

And it is now my responsibility to help out the casino that already has the house edge?

1. it's your responsibility not to cheat, or to act with comptempt when it comes to playing by the casino's house rules. this applies to everything from not cheating, to being discreet and not playing victim when backed off if caught card-counting, not taking petty shots at people, and to understand that the house edge is a fair part of paying the bulls, that casinos are in competition with each other in providing fair games and customer service (and do well enough to keep people coming), and to basically act like a grown up at the casino, and not blame for faults of others or the self.
2. The house edge is the service charge for the action. Do you resent paying for a restuarant bill, a car rental fee, a movie ticket cover charge, etc.? So why here? if your at this site, you know the house edges or games and casinos, or how to get them. you go in knowining the deal, or having available to you this info. You choose what game you want to play, and where to play it.

Quote: marieBicurie

If the dealer shorts a player, I'd say something.

good.

Quote: marieBiCurie

If the dealer over pays the player, that's not my problem it's the casino's.

unless YOUR employee overpays a customer. Tne you'll be screaming holy hell, firing the worker, - and being pissed off at the dirty customer for KNOWINGLY taking your money he was not entitled to, and hoping SOMEONE would have spotted it or brought it to your attention. Now THAT's different when it's your business.

Quote: marieBiCurie

Train your staff properly or STFU. BTW, if you do say something about an overpay regarding another player, I hope that player follows you outside.

I do dectect some agression in that. Sounds like a wish on your part, you did state that here: "Hope he follows you out to the parking lot...die, Danny, DIE! Na-HA!" he may, or he may not, but casinos are my environment. I know how to evaluate casino situations. I also might be a gun owner like many here in Nevada, let him guess. I wouldn't be the only one. But also, he might be one of the rare gamblers who actually might not want to take something that wasn't rightfully his when pointed out, and let it go. As in "dang, that is true, I didn't have a full house, so why should I expect to be paid for it, come to think of it?" This does occasionally happen. mariBiCurie, please feel this is a good thing, like progress.

Quote: marieBiCurie

You have no idea about another player's financial status or their situation.

Not interested. Couldn't care less, and not a factor or justification for theft or cheating, period, end of story. We just care to know if he's a crook who had cheated or not. that's all. We're not interested in others' finances, rally, but we are interested in their behavior and actions while on property, that's all.

Quote: MarieBicurie

It's none of your damn business.

Not interested in anyone's personal business, I was clear about that. Interested if they act honestly, and like adults, when on property.

Quote: MarieBiCurie

The whole notion of you doing the right thing by costing another player money is retarded.

I Didn't cost anyone a damn penny when it was never theirs from the get-go, - and it's not supposed be theirs by cheating, or by taking what is simply not theirs. Doing the right thing is not condoning - or even stopping - the wrong thing. This is basic home training stuff, that is, play by the rules, not taking what isn't yours, or what you're not entitled to, or being called out on dirty play, etc. If it's resented by some, then okay, fine, WTH. I'll debate these points.

Once again, Dan, you say something that is just not so... You say a player, who is mispaid, is TAKING SOMETHING THAT IS NOT THEIRS. If the duly authorized agent of the casino CHOOSES to pay me, then it is mine, unless the CASINO chooses to reevaluate the situation. I have been overpaid, and when it was noticed by the dealer after the fact, OF COURSE I returned the excess without batting an eyelash. I am not TAKING anything from the casino, I did not reach across the table into the tray, the dealer moved the money to MY area, where it is clear the CASINO expects me to take it. They do NOT say, 'Sir, please make sure you were not overpaid, because the money really isn't yours".....They have determined how much I should be paid and they paid me.... It is totally within your rights to alert the casino if you notice such... please don't ever sit at a table I'm playing at.... I'm sure the great majority of the forum and the general gambling public would agree with me....

We're talking when it's pointed out, and they refuse when shown, based on it pointed out.
I said if they [the players] get paid and leave, - and later surveillance catches it, then the dealer and/or floorman gets the rap - not the player - and gets written up or fired.
A player who refuses to give it back is not killed or arrested, or back roomed or stabbed or what have you - but IS INDEED now taking something he now knows was not his, - plain and simple. I mean we literally have people who do a "No! It's Mine! ALL Mine!" kind of thing at times, and act like we have some nerve saying "You know, Sir, ma'am, you were over paid and you do need to give it back." now....WATCHOUT! What goes on here in protest/anger etc. is exactly what goes on in a casino when a player is called on it. This is an ethical, behavioral problem with people - including gamblers, (shockingly enough!) being discussed here.

But a few of them return the overpayment upfront, returning it and ploitely saying, "Sir, you overpaid me by accident, here it is back..." A rare and pleasant surprise! Dealer is usually stunned, and thanks the player.

I did change my ending tag, motto, whatever.
1. Gambling does not build character.
2. It (consistently) reveals no character. (and I, too, my little friend, am a serious gambler.)
3. lucrative business, as it gets a lot of action. Still, doesn't justify what we do or how we act. We Are Always Responsible for how we act, and we show how we act in many situations. My point.

Quote: FinsRule

sees no difference between capping bets, and not correcting a dealer's mistake. Anyone who doesn't correct a dealer's mistake is a cheater.

If you get overpaid on accident by a rookie dealer and you let it slide. You're cheating.

If you cap bets. You're cheating.

In each scenario. You are getting paid more money than the rules say you should. How hard is that to comprehend.

I don't think anyone here is saying that not correcting a dealer's mistake is illegal. Because more times than not, you probably won't notice it. That is their job to make sure the pays are correct.

But capping bets is illegal. You will get gaming commission heat for that.

My analysis (feel free to come to your own conclusion) is that not correcting a dealer mistake is cheating IF you know about it. Capping bets is cheating. And it is illegal.

Do I judge anyone that doesn't correct a dealer mistake. Nope. Do I judge someone for capping bets. You better believe it.

I don't think you should be pissed off just because someone who sees more bets in a shift than you probably will in a month has an opinion. We can all have opinions and they don't have to be mutually exclusive.

A good guy...a white hat...a decent sensible guy. Hope and faith restored....thank you man, really, I was getting depressed and questioning my sanity and ethics.

DISCLAIMER: I do not work for a casino, nor have I ever. I enjoy going to them.

Quote: MarieBicurie

I love how you say it's the ethical thing to do. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Casinos are the most unethical businesses out there! Letting people who are drunk off their asses feeding bills into slot machines. Screwing the players over any and every chance they get. Hell, the view of counters and AP's is that they are cheaters when they clearly aren't.

LOL Are you kidding ME? It's their decisions to drink. It is their decision to place their bets. They are screwing themselves by playing high house edge games.....over and over and over again. Don't blame anyone but people that want to gamble. That is their decision, not the casino's.

Quote:

Since when is it the player's responsibility to train the dealers? The player is responsible to make sure his pay out isn't short. It is also the dealer's job to run the game properly and pay it out properly. If the dealer is poorly trained or over paying the players, who's fault is it? The casino. They should be paying more close attention.

Nobody is going to argue against this statement. And nobody has stated so yet.

Quote:

And it is now my responsibility to help out the casino that already has the house edge?

Sure isn't. But it doesn't excuse the fact that you are letting an error slide if you so choose to. That doesn't make you a bad person. It just is what it is. Stop being so defensive about it.

Quote:

If the dealer shorts a player, I'd say something. If the dealer over pays the player, that's not my problem it's the casino's.

An error is an error, no matter who is getting paid. You can do whatever you choose. Like I said from the beginning, it IS the dealer's job to be accurate.

Quote:

Train your staff properly or STFU

Classy

Quote:

BTW, if you do say something about an overpay regarding another player, I hope that player follows you outside.

So you are now saying violence against someone that likes to play by the rules is ok. WOW.

Quote:

You have no idea about another player's financial status or their situation. It's none of your damn business.

You know what, if that BR is that person's last $100, they shouldn't be plopping down their last dollars on a gamble. There are help numbers for that. If someone doesn't win the money fair and square, that's the rules.

Quote:

The whole notion of you doing the right thing by costing another player money is retarded.

It isn't COSTING the player anything. They didn't win the money fair.

It is called keeping the integrity of the game. If you don't understand what that means, that's ok. If you disagree. That's ok too.

Like I said before.

Be a winner. Not a whiner.

I correct my own mispays, in either direction, and I expect the casino to behave fairly towards me in return. I do not correct dealer mispays in favor of the player as that is a transaction between the dealer and the player. I do correct dealer mispays in the casino's direction.

It is my general anticorporate attitude that makes me behave this way and the fact that casinos are happy to take drunk player's money and to take advantage of players who don't know how to play. For me, that mispay in the player's direction is the only thing in my opinion that slightly balances the unethical behaviour of the casino. I know it's wrong, but that's how I'm wired.

When I'm grocery shopping, if I see the cashier overcharge another patron for something that's cheaper, I'll correct the cashier. If I see the cashier undercharge, I won't correct the cashier. However, I will correct an undercharge to me. That's because stores will purposefully leave out sales tages on their goods, hoping that its patrons don't notice.

In my own personal life, customers are always trying to squeeze value out of my services, and they should. At casinos, the players are the customers, the casino the vendor, and it's up to the customers to get the most value from the vendor. If that includes a mispay here and there, so be it.

I highly doubt that blackjack went from 3:2 to 6:5 because of counting. It was due to greed. I highly doubt 3CP went from 1-4-6 to 1-3-6 because of holecarding; it was due to greed. I highly doubt that it was cheaters who brought about the advent of the penny slots and the 85% - 90% payout when the slotmakers could easily have produced just as entertaining machines at the nickel and quarter level with a 95% payout - once again, greed.

When you have 3-4 corporations (Sands, Wynn, MGM, Caesars) running 96% of the strip (Treasure Island excepted), you are going to have an oligarpy where you can get away with crap like this because the other companies aren't competing. Oil companies are the same. Government turns a blind eye because the casinos (and the oil companies) are in the congress' back pockets.

Quote: boymimbo

I correct my own mispays, in either direction, and I expect the casino to behave fairly towards me in return. I do not correct dealer mispays in favor of the player as that is a transaction between the dealer and the player. I do correct dealer mispays in the casino's direction.

I don't see anything wrong with this. Because this is what most people will do. I digress, it is the dealer's job to be accurate.

Quote:

It is my general anticorporate attitude that makes me behave this way and the fact that casinos are happy to take drunk player's money and to take advantage of players who don't know how to play. For me, that mispay in the player's direction is the only thing in my opinion that slightly balances the unethical behaviour of the casino. I know it's wrong, but that's how I'm wired.

Again, it is a person's decision to drink. I don't buy that crap. Take advantage of players that don't know how to play??? They offer lessons on almost every game in the casino? And they are friendly about it? Why? Because they have a house edge on all the games. That is a moot point. You want to be anticorporate. Fine. But don't sit there and say the casino is taking advantage of anyone. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Quote:

I highly doubt that blackjack went from 3:2 to 6:5 because of counting. It was due to greed.

Probably both.

Quote:

When you have 3-4 corporations (Sands, Wynn, MGM, Caesars) running 96% of the strip (Treasure Island excepted), you are going to have an oligarpy where you can get away with crap like this because the other companies aren't competing. Oil companies are the same. Government turns a blind eye because the casinos (and the oil companies) are in the congress' back pockets.

No one will argue that. Except what is the government going to do? Force casinos to disband and sell off because they made smart decisions. Pffft. Ok comrade.

Quote: SOOPOO

By the way, just last week I saw a car not come to a complete stop at a stop sign. I am embarassed to say I forgot to call the authorities and report this incident.

OMG, I've done that too!
Paigowdan, I have not seen you comment on that. Am I a cheater now according to your moral compass?
To be sure, this does "cost us", even more, that a payout mistake in question - the records driver could have been fined way nor that fifteen bucks.
In fact, right now I am in the car, going 75 mph in a 65 zone, and I see some people passing m, and take records of their license plates. Would you say I should report them too?

Quote: weaselman

OMG, I've done that too!
Paigowdan, I have not seen you comment on that. Am I a cheater now according to your moral compass?
To be sure, this does "cost us", even more, that a payout mistake in question - the records driver could have been fined way nor that fifteen bucks.
In fact, right now I am in the car, going 75 mph in a 65 zone, and I see some people passing m, and take records of their license plates. Would you say I should report them too?

You guys are so hard! OMG. I can't speak for Paigowdan, but cmon. We aren't saying that people that let a mispay here or there slide are morally corrupt. Holy crap. You guys are taking things way out of context. We are just saying that an error is an error no matter if it is an overpay or an underpay. Dealers WILL make mistakes. Ok, we can agree on that right? Ok.

If you choose to not say anything on overpays and correct underpays. THAT IS FINE. But, IF someone corrects an overpay, do not get mad at them, do not follow them to the parking lot, do not be a child. The rules stated you shouldn't have won or got paid what you did (assuming an overpay). Big freaking deal. You played the game, you bet YOUR money. If someone corrects an error, man (or woman) up and play the game if you so choose. Don't use silly middle school names like narc and rat. Please.

I digress.
Be a winner. Don't be a whiner.

To this point I would be in agreement. If I were the one who was corrected I wouldn't be the one to whine and complain that I deserved the money because clearly I don't.

As to my decision to speak on behalf of other players, I disagree with Dan and thats fine, we just have 2 different opinions.

Quote: duckmankilla

To this point I would be in agreement. If I were the one who was corrected I wouldn't be the one to whine and complain that I deserved the money because clearly I don't.

I would not whine that I deserve the money. I would think that the guy who could not keep his mouth shut and mind his own business is a freaking idiot though. As a rule, I don't like people who try to be holier than the Pope at other people's expense.

I won't use "silly middle school names", and I won't "follow him to the parking lot". I would not do that if he used obscene language or had smelly socks either. I'll just think that he is, let's say, not a kind of person I would want to socialize with, that's all.

Quote: weaselman

Quote: SOOPOO

By the way, just last week I saw a car not come to a complete stop at a stop sign. I am embarassed to say I forgot to call the authorities and report this incident.

OMG, I've done that too!
Paigowdan, I have not seen you comment on that. Am I a cheater now according to your moral compass?
To be sure, this does "cost us", even more, that a payout mistake in question - the records driver could have been fined way nor that fifteen bucks.
In fact, right now I am in the car, going 75 mph in a 65 zone, and I see some people passing m, and take records of their license plates. Would you say I should report them too?

I usually drive a bit over the limit, WTH.
But what I said was this, RE: I saw a car not come a complete stop or was somehow, otherwise involved in something:
1. The situation I used was this: You witness a car doing a hit-and-run, causing property damage to a parked car 'x', and you got the plate #. What do you do?
You can think about various scenarios:
- a) a car not on your street, you're out of state;
- b) a car on your street.
- c) Your car on your street.
All of these three things seem different, but they're really not, except for your point of view. Looking down from the sky, it's all the same, except for the who-is-who part.

2. As for doing a California roll through a stop sign over being over the limit, I wouldn't give a #### if no harm or effect, but if it hit a car or a pedestrian, or was the subject of a proposition bet as to whether or not the car did indeed stop at a stop sign, it would then have an effect on someone, and witness would be needed. (okay, memory lane, here.)

3. Now, if you DID have an accident as a result of speeding or running stop signs, you'd be in a weaker position than if you had been the involved party who did it 'by the book" when something went down.

4. As for me losing sleep:
- I feel responsible for my actions in the situations that I am in, in what I do and can do, including as a witness; the effect of my actions and positions. I don't really think of it in the sense that when you die, you're there with Jesus and He says, "okay, Dan, LET'S GO TO THE VIDEO TAPE!" (a la Warner Wolfe...). But I do believe what goes around comes around, in a Karmic "Akashic Records' sense, now not meaning like I listen to too much Alan Watts or something.
- I don't lose a bit of sleep for how the world is or how others conduct themselves elsewhere with no 'confront' to me; they're the ones held responsible for what THEY do. I am responsible for what I do, and if some I did doesn't sit right with me, I try to fix it decently. In a 'something my mama taught me' sense.
- I'm in the gaming business, and see their side, and what makes sense in their POV, which I seem to share. A real rarity around here, and a real outsider here, in of all places, a gamblers' forum.
- you go through this world and look at some things, peoples actions and what not, and cannot help but to say, "G-ddamn" at some of the actions and positions taken; we all do it. We all look back at some of the things and positions we had, and may say, "Yikes, did I say or do that??!! Yeoww..." Each night I want to look back at the day, and try to say, "yup, did good, did okay...." This isn't be holier (believe me, "me" and "holy" are two things I don't think correlate), it's taking the right action, or being fair witness, what have you, when you are on the scene.

Quote: Paigowdan

I usually drive a bit over the limit, WTH.
But what I said was this, RE: I saw a car not come a complete stop or was somehow, otherwise involved in something:
1. The situation I used was this: You witness a car doing a hit-and-run,

Right. But I wanted to hear you rationalizing about the original situation (an ordinary traffic violation), not a totally different one (a felony) you wanted to rationalize about instead.

Quote:

2. As for doing a California roll through a stop sign over being over the limit, I wouldn't give a #### if no harm or effect,

Oh, but there is harm! The driver could be fined, so, that the city would make some money. This is direct analogy to the dealer's payout mistake. Same kind of harm.

Quote: weaselman

Right. But I wanted to hear you rationalizing about the original situation (an ordinary traffic violation), not a totally different one (a felony) you wanted to rationalize about instead.


Oh, but there is harm! The driver could be fined, so, that the city would make some money. This is direct analogy to the dealer's payout mistake. Same kind of harm.

Sorry to let you down. A California roll through a stop sign is not a felony in my book, though blindly running it outright is wreckless and a no-no. Some dealer errors have no effect (setting a hand wrong that results in the same win-loss-push effect), and some do have an effect-result, and I know the difference. Some players' actions are innocuous, and some are toxic. If a cop were a witness to me rolling through a sign, and wrote me a ticket, I'd plead guilty and pay it, even pay a lawyer to convert it to a zero-point gross parking violation at more money, if it's by the book that way, too, as it is in this town. Doing a hit-and-run IS a major wrong in my book, or witnessing it and doing nothing unless it were only your car. I see the shades here, the differences here, and no, I don't follow people who do a roll through a sign, or even care. I care if people hit-and-run, or employ cheating manuevers. Them Thar are callable.

Quote: Paigowdan

Sorry to let you down. A California roll through a stop sign is not a felony in my book,

Exactly! But hit and run, that you chose to consider instead, is.

Quote: Paigowdan

and no, I don't follow people who do a roll through a sign, or even care.

And I am still waiting to hear how you justify that from your high moral ground regarding dealer mistakes. Could it be that, if you were a traffic enforcement cop, casually gambling sometimes instead of a dealer, occasionally driving, your stance in this matters would be exactly opposite?

Quote: Paigowdan

if a cop were a witness to me rolling through a sign, and wrote me a ticket, I'd plead guilty and pay it

This is not interesting. But here is what is. Suppose, you get a speeding ticket for, say, 5 mph over, but you know that you were actually going 15 over (the cop made a mistake, he thought it was a 35 zone, but it actually was a 25 ). Are you going to point out the mistake to the authorities, or will you let it go this one time, because "there is no harm"?

Quote: weaselman

I won't use "silly middle school names", and I won't "follow him to the parking lot". I would not do that if he used obscene language or had smelly socks either. I'll just think that he is, let's say, not a kind of person I would want to socialize with, that's all.

Than there isn't anything wrong with your opinion. In fact, it is fine.

Remember, the world is always a game of balances.

Quote:

I don't like people who try to be holier than the Pope at other people's expense.

The assumption that it is at the corrected person's expense is a false one. That person has already lost their money. If they get the mispay, they have MADE money. If they lose the money, they have broken even.

OKAY...Weaselman...well, you got me....

Quote: weaselman

Exactly! But hit and run, that you chose to consider instead, is.

And I am still waiting to hear how you justify that from your high moral ground regarding dealer mistakes. Could it be that, if you were a traffic enforcement cop, casually gambling sometimes instead of a dealer, occasionally driving, your stance in this matters would be exactly opposite?

No....would night. Now, my actions fail me, too. Drove to work tonight, hit 80 on 95/515 into Henderson...

Quote: PGD

cop writes me a tick, I'd pay it.

Quote: Weaselman

This is not interesting. But here is what is. Suppose, you get a speeding ticket for, say, 5 mph over, but you know that you were actually going 15 over (the cop made a mistake, he thought it was a 35 zone, but it actually was a 25 ). Are you going to point out the mistake to the authorities, or will you let it go this one time, because "there is no harm"?

No, to be honest, I wouldn't make a major deal of it. You can indeed be too anal, trust me. I mean, Trust MEEE. I would rationalize that, - NOT by saying "His job, his responsibility, he didn't DO his job with attention to detail for the 25 zone, not a 35 zone... yada yada yada..." like busting a dealer's balls over something, but I'd say he got me good enough. I pays the ticket, no protest, SHORTCHANGING the City of Las vegas/Clark county the $20 differential. then I'd look in the mirror and say, "Dan, ya dirtbag...cheater...lying...cheating...no good sack...of STINKING xxxx", (well not quite.) It'd poke me a tiny bit. I would indeed view it like a dealer that mis-sets his hand to NO effect, every hand same result or I'm at the table alone, but staying silient- I'm not helping him improve his Pai Gow skills, or see a hand or improve his skills, a hand got through, whatever. As for the ticket, I could send in the $20 extra and be done with it, or drop it and be done with it. I'd say, "I'm not Al Capone," and be happy with that, I paid the damn ticket as issued. If I paid a lawyer and got no points for it, It would cost me an extra C-note, and the county and the lawyer would split an extra $50 or $100 each extra.

OMG you are so ethical (Well, some of you). I would gladly and silently accept any overpay I am receiving. And I would never ever tell a dealer about such a thing. Be it me or any other person at the table.

Quote: wernerw

OMG you are so ethical (Well, some of you). I would gladly and silently accept any overpay I am receiving. And I would never ever tell a dealer about such a thing. Be it me or any other person at the table.

And that is your choice. Are you saying by doing that, you aren't being ethical??