Hole Carding Case

On the last Bob Dancer radio show the guest spent the
whole time there talking about what happened in the
hold carding case at the Four Winds Casino in MI. It
was a two man team that was charged. They were found
guilty and fined by the tribal court, and the 35K that
was confiscated was not returned. The same thing happened
to a single player in IN. Same amount of money, none
of it returned.

I can't feel sorry for these idiots. You're doing something
you know the casino considers illegal, and you have 35K
in chips on the table? That alone will get 5 cameras trained on
you and they'll be watching your every move. If you're
really that dumb, you get what you deserve.

Its the Dec 8th show.

Bod Dancer

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I didn't hear the lawyer say the chips weren't on the
table. How do you know that?

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Yes, it does matter how you know. The article I've
read about this and the lawyer on the show said
nothing about an illegal search.

So I suspect you have faulty info. And c'mon, you're peeking
at the hole card and signaling your partner. Thats conspiracy.
They should have been nailed.

Quote: EvenBob

Yes, it does matter how you know. The article I've
read about this and the lawyer on the show said
nothing about an illegal search.

So I suspect you have faulty info. And c'mon, you're peeking
at the hole card and signaling your partner. Thats conspiracy.
They should have been nailed.

Been nailed for what? Conspiracy to commit what? It's not against the law in Michigan. That's why it was a really stupid idea to try this on tribal land and not at a commercial casino where the Michigan state court system would have jurisdiction.

It's also not an illegal search just because the chips are on someone's person. If what these guys did was really against the tribal laws and they did it on camera, there would be an abundance of probable cause to search the offenders and confiscate their ill-gotten gains.

Quote: rdw4potus

Been nailed for what? Conspiracy to commit what?

In this particular Indian casino, it was against the law.
Ignorance of the law is no defense. I don't like hole
carding, its what you did when you were a kid and
tried to trick your little sister into showing you her
cards. If you're that desperate to win, you get what
you deserve.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

The 35k in chips were on their person and not on the table

Either way, its still a stupid thing to do. $35K is 350 $100
chips. Thats a huge number, the guy making the bets
would have had to constantly exchange them for $500
and $1000 chips, and squirrel them. That in itself would have
the pit calling upstairs to get the tape rolling on that
table from 5 different cameras. I've been going to Four Winds
since the day they opened and they sweat every dime, as do
most Indian joints. With $35K in play, that player would have
had 10 sets of eyes on him at all times, of course they caught
them. Idiots.

Quote: EvenBob

And c'mon, you're peeking
at the hole card and signaling your partner. Thats conspiracy.
They should have been nailed.

They were, rightfully so. Agree fully.

Quote: EvenBob

Either way, its still a stupid thing to do. $35K is 350 $100
chips. Thats a huge number, the guy making the bets
would have had to constantly exchange them for $500
and $1000 chips, and squirrel them.

A good dealer would tap off black and color up to $500 or $1000 chips during the payouts to avoid an unnecessary fill. I suppose a good dealer would also notice the blatant cheating (at least in this jurisdiction), but it's not as though the player would have to pro-actively color up all the time.

Quote: EvenBob

In this particular Indian casino, it was against the law.
Ignorance of the law is no defense. I don't like hole
carding, its what you did when you were a kid and
tried to trick your little sister into showing you her
cards. If you're that desperate to win, you get what
you deserve.

Ignorance of the law? I suggest these players were quite cognisant of the law. What they did was not against the law until after the fact when the tribal court decided in their jurisdiction it would be. I suspect there was not a sign on the felt reading "The Pokagon band of Potawatami Indians do not recognize the 1983 State of Nevada Supreme Court common law precedent Nevada v. Einbinder / Dalben. Hole card players will be robbed, charged and convicted of cheating, then sentenced. We will however graciously accept your money should you have a losing session". Just because you don't like something it doesn't make it illegal. The Band is allowed to make any laws they like, they can make card counting or betting correlated parlays illegal should they choose. But they should do so before charging someone, not afterwards. Playing on a res is the same as playing online, ultimately you have little recourse.