Casinos - Saints or Scum?

This topic seems to be pervading every thread, so why not it's own?

In the black corner we have PaiGowDan, a long time dealer and member of the gaming industry representing "the Saint". He states he love winners, understanding that winners tip well and are repeat customers. In the red corner we have EvenBob, a self-described curmudgeon representing "the Scum". He says casinos only want your money, all of your money, and nothing but your money. So, forum members, which is correct?

At the risk of ending the discussion before it starts, aren't they both right? I'm sure Dan as well as multiple dealers, hosts, managers, buffet runners, valet parkers, etc enjoy customers winning. While I personally only have Dan at his word (and have no reason to dispute it), I see it first hand every week employees of my casino celebrating in patron wins. However, it would not be hard for me to imagine some big wig whose job depends on the bottom line to act like he was straight out of one of EvenBob's posts. And I'm sure, between these two extremes, there are many personnel just don't give a rip. Win, lose, or draw, they're just here for their 40 hours, then hasta la pasta for two days until they grind out another 40. Personally, I'm a bit of both. I NEED winners, because with only losers the place would shut down and I'd be another one of the 9%. Sometimes, like when seeing a little ol' grandma-type win $12,000 on penny slots or a good ol' boy hittin a $200k Wheel of Fortune and be brought to tears, I think "F* yeah, good for them!". Other times, when seeing the too-loud, too-drunk, too-gropey, rude and uncivilized d-bags lose their ass, I take (probably too much) pleasure in it.

So which is it? For sure everything about the casino, from the games to the decor to the phychology of the place is there to get your money, just as restaurant signs are designed to make you hungry and the furniture and music to get you back out asap. This is common marketing, we know this. I think saying this fact alone makes them scoundrels is a stretch. So that aside (if you can allow it to be set aside) what's your opinion?

They are somewhere in the middle of course. Like most businesses (perhaps all), they get away with as much as they can until there is some sort of oversight and regulation. That cab driver in the midwest will try to overcharge you until you call them out on it. Greed is part of human nature.

Just look at Wall St., poster child for my position.

Quote: Face

So which is it? For sure everything about the casino, from the games to the decor to the phychology of the place is there to get your money

The greed and the evil is in the top tiers of
the casino hierarchy, at the bottom levels
its quite different. I've spoken to countless
dealers over the years about their jobs, and
most hate them with a passion. They don't
like the way the public treats them, but far
worse than that, they don't like the way
management treats them. They say they feel
like robots and are treated like slaves. I've
heard Steve Wynn say if a dealer doesn't
like something, he has a 3' high stack of dealer
applications on his desk and will have somebody
new there before the shift is over. In most
casinos, the people on the floor are just replaceable
cogs in the wheel.

A few months ago I called a local casino to ask
a question and got the line where employees
call in sick. The recording said if you're calling
in sick, leave your name and employee number.
Unless its Friday or Saturday, then you're not
allowed to miss the shift for any reason and
you must come in or lose your job. I'm not kidding.
What other business is that greedy, that you have
to come in if you're in your sick bed, or lose
your job.

EvenBob, those are surely some f*ed up situations, no disputing that. I just don't see those as casino specific. I mean, no disrespect to dealers because I understand the nuances in the job and what it takes to be a good dealer, but in the scale of things, dealing is "entry level". This is NOT a slight on dealers nor a personal opinion, I'm just looking at it from an economic standpoint. Dealer is to casino ops as waitress is to restaurant or cashier is to retail. Unfortunately, in all the cases, they are the MOST needed and MOST important positions and get treated the worst. It's the same in ANY occupation.

In my former job in retail, I worked up from gas pumper to cashier to shift supervisor to general manager of the whole place. Our policy was not much different. We had a good starting wage plus benefits; if I as a cashier wanted to piss away days at the beach, have at it, they also had stacks of applications, and I kept the same policies when I was running the place. Calling in on a holiday or high volume day was a severe infraction, putting you a step away from termination for a perfect employee and immediate termination for those with thick files, which is nearly identical to the way my casino runs their attendance policies.

I agree it's a shitty way to treat what I believe are the most important persons in the joint, I just don't see this as casino exclusive. It seems to exist in most types of business. "Low men"? Pfft, who needs 'em? Tis a shame.

Quote: EvenBob

A few months ago I called a local casino to ask
a question and got the line where employees
call in sick. The recording said if you're calling
in sick, leave your name and employee number.
Unless its Friday or Saturday, then you're not
allowed to miss the shift for any reason and
you must come in or lose your job.

Casinos are strict about lateness/attendance, true, and those two days are the businessdays where casinos cannot comfortably afford shortfalls in attendance.
1. A agree with being sick on a rare Saturday as a one-off event is a "non-criminal" act that should not be a fire-able offense, I really do. I have called in sick on a Saturday (- VERY occasionally) without much flak, and with a "feel better," - but policy varies from house to house.
2. But spotty attendance and consistent lateness can show an attitude problem towards the job - it really can.
3. If a person is truly sick, and calls in early enough in good faith, it is generally not a problem, as an "on-call" worker can be called in as a replacement. Four or six hours before a shift is generally sufficient time.
4. The AMOUNT of sick days that a casino generally tolerates comfortably is about one day per season, or about 4 to 6 days a year.
5. We also have "floater" days, three per year. Must be pre-delared.
6. We have a week's vacation per year, and it goes up to two weeks after five years.
These are not slave conditions; management considers them "standards."

The jobs where attendance is crucial are: slot technicians, cocktail waitresses, dealers, valets, cage workers, housekeeping, sports/race book, surveillance, and customer support. If there are shortfalls in these areas - service and operations can really decline to all sorts of customer howling

I will say this Bob - if you had gone into a casino, and found poor service because of a attendance shortfall in these areas, you again might rant about casino incompetence, casino negligence, casinos "not showing they care" for their clientele, etc.

Edit: as for ("Clean") player wins:
1. They are a good thing! It is the players' goal to have a good night out.
2. Great advertisement.
3. Casinos don't resent it - they expect it, as a mathermatical probability.
4. It is often a loan - it keeps "positive reenforcement" in place for the customer to the casino. "Congratulations on your great win, Sir!" (Read: "you know where to play and find the gooood action!")
5. Dealers don't resent it - it's not their money that is being won and lost - they're referees on a game between two opposing sides; they (dealers) might have equal affection for the both player or the casino, or have equal dislike for both customer and management, - and it varies by employee and by the particular customer or management.

Quote: Paigowdan

agree with being sick on a rare Saturday as a one-off event is a "non-criminal" act that should not be a fire-able offense

But it is in many casinos. Most? I've never seen or
heard of this in any other profession, that your
peon job is so important that not showing up, even
if you called in and are really sick, is a fireable
offense.

For a long time we just had one big Indian casino
in MI. Then in 2007, another big one opened and
I saw lots of dealers and floor people from the former
casino in the new one. They all said they left because
management sucked. But they loved the new one,
management was great Another one opened in 2009
and lo and behold, many of the same people were
at that one, saying management had gone downhill
at the 2nd casino and they now sucked too. This year
a 3rd casino opened and you guessed it, the same
people were at the new one with the same complaints.
Not to tough to see what happens. New management,
everything is hunky dory, sweetness and light. After
a few months, then years, they become what all casinos
are, greed mongers, and the lower you are in the ranks,
the harder they make it on you. Sweating the bottom
line turns them into monsters. You can almost feel this
vibe in some joints, the unhappiness and unrest among
the floor workers.

Bob, enough. Go suck on a sock. You're doing everything you can to poison this place and this place is better than that. We get it, you believe casinos exist for the sole purpose of taking every dime out of every pocket of every person who walks in their doors. Guess what, you could very well be right. You believe casino management/ownership is evil because of this theory. Quite possibly. You state that most dealers in any casino hate their job and hate their players. Who knows? You think Dan is full of it and full of himself. So, you've made your point - on many occasions. We got the picture. You impose your nasty attitude around here and gum up the works of this place and I respectfully request that you stop. It's not too likely this post will change anything but perhaps you might pause a moment before writing your next diatribe and reconsider. The topic of this thread is whether or not casinos are saints or scum - the answer to that is certainly debatable but if you bring the attitude that you've shown here into any casino I'd not doubt that anyone who works in the place would look at you with scorn and derision. Perhaps that's your problem Bob, not the casino's. Thanks for your time.

Quote: TheNightfly

Bob, enough. Go suck on a sock.

Hey, just block people you don't like and
go on with life. Thats what I do, its real
easy. Get somebody to show you how.
Its easier then trying to get everybody
to see things your way, and when they don't,
throw a temper tantrum about it.

Quote: TheNightfly

Bob, enough. Go suck on a sock. You're doing everything you can to poison this place and this place is better than that. We get it, you believe casinos exist for the sole purpose of taking every dime out of every pocket of every person who walks in their doors. Guess what, you could very well be right. You believe casino management/ownership is evil because of this theory. Quite possibly. You state that most dealers in any casino hate their job and hate their players. Who knows? You think Dan is full of it and full of himself. So, you've made your point - on many occasions. We got the picture. You impose your nasty attitude around here and gum up the works of this place and I respectfully request that you stop. It's not too likely this post will change anything but perhaps you might pause a moment before writing your next diatribe and reconsider. The topic of this thread is whether or not casinos are saints or scum - the answer to that is certainly debatable but if you bring the attitude that you've shown here into any casino I'd not doubt that anyone who works in the place would look at you with scorn and derision. Perhaps that's your problem Bob, not the casino's. Thanks for your time.

Thanks, nightfly....
Can you image dealing to a table full of Bobs for a full shift.....

I hope this helps in that you understand me at times...and he isn't the worst of it....

Quote: Paigowdan

Thanks, nightfly....
Can you image dealing to a table full of Bobs for a full shift......

Nice try. I rarely speak when I'm playing, to
the players or the dealers. I never complain,
I play and leave. Back in my BJ days I talked
more, but most of that was cover. In roulette
I don't need any cover, so why talk.

I think Vegas was a friendlier place when the
Mob ran it back in the 70's and 80's. I've heard
old dealers say management wasn't nearly
as tightassed as they are now, and you felt
you had job security. I know I enjoyed Vegas
more in those days, it was way more laid back
than it is now. It was almost like visiting another
country.

Quote: TheNightfly

Bob, enough. Go suck on a sock. You're doing everything you can to poison this place and this place is better than that.

At this point I would like to bring up a reminder of the blocking feature.

Quote:

We get it, you believe casinos exist for the sole purpose of taking every dime out of every pocket of every person who walks in their doors.

And he still gambles. I guess the sheep do want to get fleeced.

I wonder, Bob, is it that casinos change from new and kind to old and greedy, or does the fact that you're seeing the SAME PEOPLE possibly reveal the real issue? What's that saying about "common denominator"...?

In any case, yes, I have seen this hyper vigilance of punishment in other types of jobs. Granted, it has not been present in all, but I think it just goes with the territory. When I ran a truck stop we had certain stations - cashier, cook, diesel attendant, fuel pumper. This is the job that I said had a similar No B.S. policy. If, say, the cook decided to bang in, the whole kitchen shuts down. That is a large chunk of the operation, so attendance is a KEY part of the job. Same with the diesel attendant, if they go A.W.O.L., there's tens of thousand of dollars of COMCHEK, EFS, and ComData transactions per shift that only THEY can do. Without them, diesel is up shit's creek. Cashier at Walmart? Pfft, there are 12 others there already, you only lose 1/12th of functionality, no big deal.

The casino has similar high-priority functions that NEED to be done to carry out the casino's operations. In some of the departments Dan mentioned go understaffed, it seriously undermines the productivity of that department. If you had to walk throught a parking lot full of snow because your casino could not valet you, or you find something used or unclean in the room you're to sleep in, that's a big damn deal. Neither Valet nor Housemaid sounds like that important a position when you say it, but when you think of what happens when they're not there, it becomes apparent why the casino takes such a hard line stance on attendance.

EvenBob, other's opinion aside, I actually, in a way, enjoy your posts. If I may judge for a moment, you remind me of a couple of the old timers that frequent my local golf course. They don't play, ever, they just have their coffee and gripe about everything. Government, TV, the younger generation, on and on and on. They don't go out of their way to hurt people, but if you take offense to their ranting, well, that's too damn bad =). You can't ever make them happy, it would seem, but that one fine day when something you do or say gets their attention and they clap you on the back in approval, it's worth more than a great many other compliments. Everyone has a role, every moment a chance to learn. Carry on, you ol' bugger ;)

Quote: Nareed

And he still gambles.

Nope, I never gamble. For the 100th time.

Quote: EvenBob

But it is in many casinos. Most? I've never seen or
heard of this in any other profession, that your
peon job is so important that not showing up, even
if you called in and are really sick, is a fireable
offense.

For a long time we just had one big Indian casino
in MI. Then in 2007, another big one opened and
I saw lots of dealers and floor people from the former
casino in the new one. They all said they left because
management sucked. But they loved the new one,
management was great Another one opened in 2009
and lo and behold, many of the same people were
at that one, saying management had gone downhill
at the 2nd casino and they now sucked too. This year
a 3rd casino opened and you guessed it, the same
people were at the new one with the same complaints.
Not to tough to see what happens. New management,
everything is hunky dory, sweetness and light. After
a few months, then years, they become what all casinos
are, greed mongers, and the lower you are in the ranks,
the harder they make it on you. Sweating the bottom
line turns them into monsters. You can almost feel this
vibe in some joints, the unhappiness and unrest among
the floor workers.

EB although it is possible that you are right since I have no personal knowledge of the situtation you are describing I have some alternate realities for you. Many employees get bored at the same job and always change jobs on a regular basis. Most employees and employers enjoy a honeymoon period with each other before all the warts start showing up even though neither side has changed what they are doing.

I have tried to be fair to both positions here but my own bias as a longtime employer would be that if I got a resume from someone who doesn't last long at a job I would red flag it and probably not hire the applicant since he is likely a whiner.

Quote: EvenBob

Nope, I never gamble. For the 100th time.

Saying you play roulette and saying that you don't gamble are absolute contradictions and you know that. You know that neither you nor mrjjj have a method, plan, scheme, system or strategy that can consistently win money at roulette yet you insist on smugly saying that you don't gamble when you play roulette. Unless you can give any evidence to the contrary I'll simply say what I said to mrjjj; you're deluded if you think you've found a way to beat a straight roulette game. It's no wonder you have a chip on your shoulder when it comes to casinos - they take your money and you can't understand why. By the way, saying it for the 101st time won't make it so either. Carry on.

Quote: TheNightfly

Saying you play roulette and saying that you don't gamble are absolute contradictions and you know that. You know that neither you nor mrjjj have a method,

If you say so, I'm sure you know more about it than me or Ken..

Quote: EvenBob

If you say so, I'm sure you know more about it than me or Ken..

I do, as do most people on this site. It's called mathematics Bob and here's an example. 100 - 5.26 = 94.74

Quote: TheNightfly

t's called mathematics Bob and here's an example. 100 - 5.26 = 94.74

Let me get a pen and I'll write that down.

Thanks for the heads up..

(snicker)

The biggest problem with casinos is they don't
give value to the customers for the money spent.
They can't, if they did they'd go out of business.
Thats what the average loser is feeling on the way
home, when he runs thru his mind all the things
he could have gotten value on if he spent the
money somewhere else. This should be a light
bulb over the head moment, if its their first time
in a casino. But is it ever? The same person who
would spend 2 weeks pricing a new barbeque
grill, thinks nothing of dropping $400 in the slots
without knowing a thing about how they work.
Its confusing to me and has been for decades.

Quote: EvenBob

The biggest problem with casinos is they don't
give value to the customers for the money spent.

This is undeniably subjective. Personally, I agree with you. I don't drink, nor am I hung up about money as most of what I like is ridiculously cheap ($200 a year for hockey) or damn near free ($33 a year for fishing). It would take a several thousand dollar win to register as "good" and maybe get me something beyond my means ($9,000 for a "free" 4wheeler), but as it stands, I know that's a small chance of good with a large chance of bad. And the good of a reasonable win plus the bad of a probable loss doesn't equal the good I have by just working like a regular stiff. The math doesn't add up for me.

Some, though, love it. The "free" drinks, the "free" rooms, the thrill of the win, the dreams of the next win, the social aspect, etc and so on. To them it's a good deal and worth the time, and I think members here have given countless examples of why they like it. To each his own. Sure, there's "average losers" that are probably exactly as you described. Then theres guys who lose their ass and exclaim "that was a f*ing blast!" or "it was nice to get out, that was great", or "I almost had 'em, and I woulda, too, if only...". I don't get it either, really, but again, drinking, gaming, money, these aren't parts of what make ME happy as a person, so it's no surprise that I don't get it. As MrV offered in your other post, $30,000 worth of boat, sonar, rods and reels would have me peeing with glee. Most would think that's a retarded amount of money to spend to catch some stinky thing you can get for $15 at Red Lobster, but it'd make my year. Different strokes, man.

Quote: Face

In the black corner we have PaiGowDan, a long time dealer and member of the gaming industry representing "the Saint". ... In the red corner we have EvenBob, a self-described curmudgeon representing "the Scum".

I always bet black. If I lose, I bet double on black.

Really, insisting that things be black or white is what got us into the Cold War and kept us there for half a century. Real life rarely, if ever, neatly sorts itself into dichotomies. Casinos are kinda neutral like everything else. They're not trying to rob you, but they aren't in the business solely for the joy of photographing slot winners holding oversize checks, either.

Quote: heather

I always bet black. If I lose, I bet double on black.

I'm the hated dark horse and the black hat on this forum.
You are betting on me.

Quote: Paigowdan

I'm the hated dark horse and the black hat on this forum.
You are betting on me.

You got the horse part right, but not the end you feed LOL

No, I am betting on the House, which you represent, and which my little sister tells me always wins. (Like betting Banker in Baccarat or Don't Pass in Craps.)

Quote: heather

No, I am betting on the House, which you represent, and which my little sister tells me always wins. (Like betting Banker in Baccarat or Don't Pass in Craps.)

The reason it always wins in BJ is because they bar the winners.

Quote: buzzpaff

The reason it always wins in BJ is because they bar the winners.

That just underscores what I said. They don't let counters amass huge winnings for the joy of taking their picture with an oversize check, and they don't swipe their wallets and watches while showing them to the door, either. Everyone understands that the games are fixed, or, at the very least, nobody tries to pretend that the games are fair (why 2-2-2 doesn't count as Small in Sic Bo). It is well known that perfect basic strategy plus a perfect count can tip EV in the player's favor. Normally, bets that would have a positive EV for the player are dealt with by imposing a vig (Banker in Baccarat, Banking in Pai Gow). But with Blackjack, they can't just take a five percent cut out of someone's winnings if they count (unless they introduced Dan's Card Counting Table idea, which I think is a great idea that he should be trying to talk to people about). So they back off players to keep the EV in the House's favor. But you already knew all that.

I'm just not seeing anything morally right or wrong here. It's business. My sister still thinks that casinos break counters' hands and kneecaps as standard practice. If they actually did, I might have to rethink my position, but the fact is that they don't. So I'm sticking with my position that casinos, like just about everything else in the real world, are neither black nor white but grey. But if we're betting, I'm still betting Black because I always do and if I suddenly switched to Red just this once, Black's winning streak would be legendary.

Wow, there seems to be a lot of energy around this topic! Guess I will add some of my own :-).

IMO, casino's are just another business trying to make a profit from their customers. Very difficult to assign whether a customer is getting value for the amount paid in any business. It is completely up to the individual customer to make that assessment and like someone said above "different strokes for different folks".

I can't see spending $30K on a boat, rods, reels, etc. but that is just for me. I do get other people spending money on those things. I can't understand spending $150 on Paul McCartney concert tixs (did I even spell that right?) but I don't begrudge someone that does. We all like to have experiences or buy material things with our money. Who is to say that someone spending their money buying this or that is right or wrong? That is every individual's free choice to do as they please.

It follows in my mind that the businesses that serve all of our various desires only exist to serve that desire. And they need to make a profit to be around the next time someone wants to buy their products/services. Of course they want to make as much as possible providing that service. If you walk into a car dealer and have no idea that prices are negotiable, my guess is they will sell you a car at MSRP. Does that make the car dealer scum too? I think it just underscores the point that it is up to each of us to know the "game" whatever it is when we are spending money on things we want.

So what business are casino's in? Seems to me they are in the entertainment business. Gambling for most folks is something to do. A night out (or day out) to go have some fun, the thrill of the potential win. Or the grind at the BJ table or Pai Gow Table or whatever. The thrill of betting the hard way even though you know it has a terrible house edge. Or for the slot player, being on the hunt for the jackpot or royal flush on VP or 10 spots on video keno. That is what casino's are for most folks that I know that gamble.

And if you don't gamble (like I don't fish), it is very difficult to understand why casino's exist at all.....like I don't understand those Pro Bass Superstores, but I have to admit I have gone into the one in LV and said "Wow, they have a lot of cool stuff to fish with!!"

Apparently casino's want to back off card counters at BJ. Who cares? Just about every restaurant I know has a sign somewhere that says "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone". Casino's can tell anyone to leave at any time for just about any reason, or they should be able to. This is America and businesses get to chose who they do business with unless they consistently are violated a class of individuals civil rights. My guess is that being able to count or not count cards or being asked to flat bet doesn't fall in to a violation of anyone's civil rights.

Providing a product or service people want to buy, wanting to make as large a profit as possible providing it and choosing who you do business with.......I hope we don't all think any business that is focused on these objectives are "scum" because those are some of the core concepts I label "American Capitalism"! But that doesn't make these businesses "saints" either.

Just my humble opinion, value it at its acquisition price....:-)!

Quote: heather

Everyone understands that the games are fixed, or, at the very least, nobody tries to pretend that the games are fair

This just isn't true at all. Most, yes, most, of slot players
don't have the vaguest clue how slot machines work and
what their chances are of winning. From my experience in
talking to untold numbers of them over the years, as I wait
for my wife to get done losing, the vast majority believe they
can get ahead and stay ahead for good if they just get 'lucky'.
If you try to wise them up, they'll often say right to your
face that you're full of it and don't know what you're talking
about. Never underestimate the amount of sheer ignorance
in a casino among the players, they don't know the truth
and don't want to know.

As I wrote on a diffferent thread, for 95% of gamblers, it represents a form of entertainment. For the other 5% of gamblers, they represent a problem group as they provide the casinos with between 30 and 40 percent of all revenue.

Casinos are operating within their government regulations, as long as they are doing so, they are neither scum nor saints. It's up to government to define the parameters that casinos can operate in and they walk a fine fence between generating revenue for themselves and milking the ignorant poor out of their paycheck.

Personally, I think that the government can do more to get their addicts off of the casino's teat. Make casinos display the time for starters. Prominiently display gambling help lines.

Quote: EvenBob

the vast majority believe they
can get ahead and stay ahead for good if they just get 'lucky'.

Bob - this is CORRECT- they know they need to get lucky to overcome the odds which are in the casino's favor. I just met a woman who played a few times at a local racino and hit $117k. She has only played a few times after the hit and plays with a bankroll of less than $100. She got 'lucky' and will be ahead for the rest of her life. Of course most are on the other side of the equation, but there are a few who do get on the extreme side of good luck.

Quote: SOOPOO

Bob - this is CORRECT- they know they need to get lucky to overcome the odds which are in the casino's favor.

But most don't know the odds are in the casinos
favor, ask them like I did. Most really think they
have an equal chance of winning and losing. Or
they're in denial. Last week I was playing roulette
and this lady was betting the zero's every time,
along with her other bets. I usually don't talk to
other players, but she explained to me without
me asking, that the zeros come up more often than
the other numbers so she bets them. When I
pointed out that it was impossible, she said 'but
theres two of them and they're green'. I told
her to bet on 17 and 20 or any two numbers,
they come up just as often as the zeros. She gave
me a pitiable look, like I took the short blue bus
to school as a kid. This is why casinos thrive,
pure, unadulterated ignorance.

Quote: EvenBob

they're in denial. Last week I was playing roulette

I've finally caught you.... You say you don't gamble... yet you admit to playing one of the most pitiable games the casino has to offer... As the entire forum has become aware it is you who are in denial... To actually say you don't gamble, that you 'know' you will always win... and it is ROULETTE you play... you are a joke... no different from Jerry Logan and his ilk.... and now it is plain for all to see.... I don't block anyone... but I will now just read your posts with a twinkle in my eye knowing the fraud who writes them...

Quote: SOOPOO

I've finally caught you.... You say you don't gamble... .

Are you Sherlock Holmes younger brother? I say all
the time on here that I regularly play roulette, 3-4
times a week at a local casino. I just said it again
this week probably 5 times. Its no secret. And I
don't gamble, no matter what you might say
or think. As far Jerry Logan goes, we are nothing
alike, he wears boxers and I wear briefs. He drinks
Pepsi and I drink Coke.

Quote: EvenBob

But most don't know the odds are in the casinos
favor, ask them like I did. Most really think they
have an equal chance of winning and losing.

If this is a true statement, I still don't understand why this is the casino's issue, my issue or Bob's issue. People not being smart with their money or not understanding the odds of a game is their own issue and their own responsibility. Besides, when Bob has tried to help them by explaining the real story, they don't want to hear it evidently. None of this has any bearing on the Casino's being saints or scum.

Quote: Paradigm

If this is a true statement, I still don't understand why this is the casino's issue, my issue or Bob's

'IF'? You know well that the last thing the casino
wants is a wised up public. The knowledge isn't
hidden, it just isn't readily available when the
dollar does in the machine, like the warning on
a pack of cigarettes. It wouldn't matter if there
was a sign on every slot that read:

WARNING! The casino has rigged
this machine in their favor. The
chances of you winning long term
are almost zero.

They would play anyway because they think it
doesn't apply them, even if they understand
what it means. A chump is a chump.

A couple of thoughts on this:

I think most people understand that the casino exists because it is making money. I also believe that most people understand that all games out there come with a house edge. However, that said:

1. Most people out there who play slots believe that a machine is hot or cold and that the next draw correlates to the hotness or coolness of a machine, when all they are experience is current randomness.

2. Most people out there don't understand that higher denomination slots in general have better payouts.

3. Most people out there can't understand the house edge in video keno.

4. Most people out there can't read a video poker pay table and understand how it affects them.

5. Most people don't understand the house edge in roulette and other carnival games.

On the other hand, if you are just there for entertainment and are not a problem gambler, the above doesn't matter as it's just a game, entertainment for the time passing. I don't see any difference whatsoever with blowing $60 at a casino over a few hours vs doing the same at a golf course, sporting event, movies, etc. The casino's house edge is such that there is a solid probability that you will come out ahead.

It's the problem gamblers who are affected by this the most -- those who go to the casino a couple of times a week, living precariously from paycheck to paycheck, thinking that the lottery or the casino will make them rich --- one day. And the casino offers that promise -- flyers mailed showing wins of people just like you.

And sometimes, a good win does happen. Last night, the person next to me hit the royal on the quarter machine for $1024. About five minutes later, I hot hit 4 Aces and a three for $1000 on the triple double bonus.

Anyway, one must look at the casino scene in "The Invention of Lying".

Quote: Invention of Lying

Gervais: "Chips, please."
Cashier: "There's a very good chance you'll lose all of this money here tonight."
Gervais: "I know."
Cashier: "And even if you happen to win, there's an even better chance that in the long run, we'll win it back".
Gervais: "I know."
Cashier: "Some of the games are fixed, like the ones that use computers".
Gervais: "I know"
Cashier: "Good luck."

Yes, it's true. the average person basically doesn't understand probability. I was looking at the Wizard's discussion on side bets in Blackjack. The so-called "Lucky Ladies" side bet has a house edge in the range of 28 or 29 percent - an out-and-out sucker bet, but I see more people playing it than doubling down on their sum of 10 versus the dealer's 6 up card!

The card room I work at has clocks on all the walls. Tons of people play the 3 card poker CA variant since we added the new "6 card bonus" it is amazing how people will bet nearly $40-$100 a hand hoping to win big on the bonuses. If the players ask me if it is a good bet I say to them, "If it pays 1,000:1 you know the chances of it happening are nearly impossible" Although I do think the card rooms should do more to have favorable games for the player since the house is not banking them. The worst that could happen is the corporation could refuse to bank the games, but then again everyone is in cahoots with each other there. The upper management of the card room are former corporation employees and I see corporation people handing out money to the floor men and other casino managers all the time.

Quote: EvenBob

She gave me a pitiable look, like I took the short blue bus to school as a kid.

I bet you get that look a lot.

Quote: EvenBob

WARNING! The casino has rigged
this machine in their favor. The
chances of you winning long term
are almost zero.

They would play anyway because they think it
doesn't apply them, even if they understand
what it means. A chump is a chump.

And you keep playing roulette?

My thought is that EvenBob watches roulette. If he doesn't gamble, then he doesn't play. If he puts chips on a number and says it isn't gambling, then he's 94.74% fool. No roulette system works.

The winning system to roulette.

1: play the best odds available, but spend the least amount over time.
2.Order drinks often, and the most expensive as possible. If still behind behind, steal casino ashtrays to make up the difference and sell them at your flea market stand.

Quote: BrooklynJake

Yes, it's true. the average person basically doesn't understand probability. I was looking at the Wizard's discussion on side bets in Blackjack. The so-called "Lucky Ladies" side bet has a house edge in the range of 28 or 29 percent - an out-and-out sucker bet, but I see more people playing it than doubling down on their sum of 10 versus the dealer's 6 up card!

Lucky Ladies is +EV at high counts. Too bad we don't see those counts often enough.

Quote: SOOPOO

And you keep playing roulette?

Yup, no warning signs yet. Until they put
up the signs, I'll keep playing.

Quote: boymimbo

No roulette system works.

You have to wait till the house edge is sleeping,
sneak up to the table so as not to wake it, lay
down a couple bets and get thehell out before it
even knows you were there.

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: boymimbo

No roulette system works.

You have to wait till the house edge is sleeping,
sneak up to the table so as not to wake it, lay
down a couple bets and get thehell out before it
even knows you were there.

1. Convince the House to block off the zeros for you, Ashley Revell-style.
2. Place Match Play coupons on Black, Red, Odd, Even, Manque, and The Opposite of Manque (can't remember what it's called).
3. Double the stakes until satisfied.

Quote: heather

1. Convince the House to block off the zeros for you, Ashley Revell-style.

Sometimes I go up to the wheel and just when
the ball is going to fall, I scream at the dealer, while
pointing behind him, "WATCH OUT!" and when
he spins around (losing his job for doing so) I
reach into the wheel and place the ball where I
want it. Works like a treat..

Fascinating.

There is a great scene in the "Invention of Lying" (everyone tells the truth, except for Gervais, who is the only one in the world allowed to lie) plays roulette.

The ball rolls, lands on a number and the croupier is about to take the money away. Gervais moves the bet to the winning number and says, "look, I've won".

"Looks like we have a winner!!!".

Is that how it works, Bob?

Quote: heather

1. Convince the House to block off the zeros for you, Ashley Revell-style.

Didn't happen. He just asked for that and was refused at the Hard Rock. Th Plaza eventually let him have one spin, filmed with no blocked off numbers.